Star Wars Art Books = The Death Of Many People's Imagination!

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  1. #1
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    Thumbs down Star Wars Art Books = The Death Of Many People's Imagination!

    ...

    Aspiring artists and professionals a like are suffering from the same syndrome!

    its called "wow there are tons of art books out there i might as well (quote unquote) reference my design ...hmmm take a little from Doug Chiang take a little from Ian Mccaig annndd take a little from fabulous Mr. Powers and ...uhh yep and i got my butt pirated copy of photo shop soo that makes me an artist ...syndrome"

    ok perhaps i am just venting frustration...

    what do you think about this matter?


    one cool thing i've realized is i have NOT seen much of this one these boards!

    LONG LIVE CREATIVITY!!!

    -Joshua

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  3. #2
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    I agree with you completely. I don't see it as much in characters but in vehicles. I'm so sick of seeing glossy, shiny and curvy hover vehicles.

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    word to you, JOSHUATHEJAMES

    I am guilty of this, sometimes blatantly so. for me, it is the architecture I find myself pulling from, sometimes just plain ripping.
    people I have had worked with in the past really get into the "following with the sheep" mode, which tends to put itself in the forefront of my creativity.
    Ever since I got on this site, though, I have been trying to knock down the walls I have had built up for money.
    Strings like this are what I can use to remind myself of my roots.

    i guess this is a long winded thanks....


    ....but i agree with both you guys totally.

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  5. #4
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    Haven't seen much of this, neither on Sijun nor here. Could you show me some examples? I must say I was impressed with the AotC book, the guy who really blew my fuse was Ryan Church. I'm still suffering from Chronic Drool.

    Portfolio: www.torsteinnordstrand.com
    Working on / for: Age of Conan / Funcom
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  6. #5
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    Well, there's nothing wrong with learning from the best, isn't it? I copy a lot from these books - and use them as a source of inspiration. BUT I'd never post those drawings anywhere as my "original" posts. If possible, I mention the source of inspiration. However, this forum (and some others as well) are at least as much a source as these books.

    I can understand all those people saying: Wow, that's cool, I want to learn how to do this, too. Just my opinion, though. I see lots of other styles here, too.

    Jester

    :o

    Imagination is intelligence having fun!

    Jester's Sketchbook

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  7. #6
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    Just a question for clarification..

    Are we talking as inspiration.. like designs inspired and near identical to others..

    Or plain out ripping. Taking the art of another artist, forging it and claiming it as yours. I've seen plenty of that on Sijun. Pretty awful.

    - loken
    jtriska @ mcleodusa.net
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    I'm glad other's are aware of this 'problem'

    I wouldn't say copying them for your own learning is bad - it's no different than doing a master copy of Degas, Millas, Mucha or Delacroix for example - the principle is the same.

    However, come to creating your own original work - why stand in the shadow of another when you can create your own style and technique? the thing its, with star wars stuff they find their inspiration from the world around them, not other people's work - they look at things from history through to present day, and then use that as a starting point - a good example is the pod racers - nothing but chariots mixed with jet engines! now why didn't I think of that? such a simple idea. it's down to thinking on the same term, than copying. It is difficult not to do things similar because the idea is to keep the thing,architecture etc you're concepting, something that the viewer can relate to( but there are no rules really)

    basically what's happening is that the imagination is being blinkered. I see these books (fantastic though they are - and they do inspire me too!) as one direction of imagination - of which there are countless.

    a lot of concepts still show direct influence from star wars (a new hope) even down to the 'chipped off paint' using white ink effect. I feel more thought should be given to the function of your craft, building etc. am I putting that effect on because I just do it automatically? because I saw it on Joe Johnston's and Doug Chiang's work and it 'looks cool' or am I doing it because of the environment this object is in?...who's to say the concept of 'paint' is an endless presence? why isn't the craft made out of a solid colour, - like plastics? why must all craft in the whole universe since time began till the end of it, be made of metal with paint on it?

    the weird thing is - we don't see much evolution from that 'star wars' look in some art out there - think of it as a car from the 80's - a typical boxy look - and car designers not designing anything since, but staying around the 80's style, even 20 years on , there's not much change, look at all the sexy cool and futuristic cars out there that we would have missed out on! well that's how I see star wars influenced stuff.

    it's a culture thing at the end of the day - it's embedding in ours and that why we do see a lot of stuff like it. Also, sadly, thats why a lot of vewiers may not like something orginal, because they are so used to the star wars culture and anything else is rejected. I think the same problem can be seen in paintings where Frank Frazetta has been such a big influence - but that's another thread!

    I look at my work and if it's 'star warsy' more often than not, I'll reject it in a pursuit of what's not been thought of yet .It's difficult, but you can follow the same design principles and still be original and it's much more self-rewarding when you do design something you know the world has never seen before.Of course as star wars is in my mind too - this is always a battle to be orginal!

    apologies for ranting on.
    cheers
    jez

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    Around here, copying the Great Masters stroke for stroke is actually encouraged overpainting/tracing stuff without telling is of course dodgy.

    Painting over photographs and stuff is unfortunately a typical newbie trait at Sijun, lots of insecure 14-year-olds who desperately want to look good fast. Seems to be a good environment here, still trusting and encouraging.

    Portfolio: www.torsteinnordstrand.com
    Working on / for: Age of Conan / Funcom
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    i agree, joshua.

    nothing against learning in terms of technique - i think i improved a lot through looking at dermott power's digital sketches.
    the key is not to redo the designs they did. one can assimilate bits of their visual vocabulary, one can see new ways of working, new techniques and feel remembered to one or the other rule that is long time forgotten.

    it's similar to what i am currently encountering through the great posts of jon foster here. i am reminded to warm/cool again, and i see what can be done with just warm/cool and value.
    i try to assimilate the technique into my ideas, compositions and designs, not repainting jon's.

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    Thumbs up

    great posts guys ....really fun to read!!!!


    and .... i have both the ep 1 and 2 art books and i love them ...i take them off the shelf every once in awhile and flip through them for inspiration! but after im pumped its time to put the book back and do some of my! drawing...

    im all about learning new techniques
    but the people i am frustrated with are the ones that have art on their site that are blatant rip offs of these people and i see it all the time and its sad...
    ...instead of doing the hard work of learning design and theories and practicing the necessary life drawing they rip off others. ive even seen people that dont even really need to do it but they did! its SAD! ...i know we all are not going to be the greatest artist on the planet but at least we can have some dignity!

    -Joshua

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  12. #11
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    hey josh, it's their part to be sad not yours.
    they won't be rewarded by the industry for their work if they are only ripping off... the truly creative people (or at least the people going their own way) will be - at least i hope
    :chug:

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    That's what we'd hope, Gekitsu. But I've seen a lot of people get jobs in the industry by copying stuff. Makes me very frustrated and it suprises me when studios don't notice that it's a rip off. Ah well... not too much I can do about it. So you are right about just doing the best we can and hoping someone notices.

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    Hey Josh

    thanks. if you look at my site, in the mech section I am your poster child. I will make it my effort to do my own studies of these mechanical things. I've been wrenching on US airforce aircraft for 14 years, you'd think i'd come up with some cool crap.

    Thanks for the wake up call.


    Mitch

    There was much rejoicing in the realm of the Harvest Gods when man created the beer, light could not penetrate.
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  15. #14
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    Josh,
    I see what you are saying and I have always tried to steer clear of what you talking about because i see it too. But if other people wanna do it, who cares, you dont have to do it. To other people that DO do it, if it makes them happy they are creating or psudo-creating, let be. It does kinda make me sad that there could be more diverse stuff to look at, but then i can create that shit and blow them away. So ill keep it real for ya but dont lose any sleep over the rest of the population.

    BLAST ON YOU!
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    Good thread. While evryone is inspired now and then (as it is nearly impossible to avoid in our over-saturated culture), there are a lot of artists out there who appear to be without an original idea bouncing through thier head. This bothers me quite a bit. Copying art we admire is how a lot of us come to know what we like, but there must be a point where you find your own style, your own rythym, your own voice.
    Obviously this didn't start with Starwars (it's just super popular with the concept crowd). If I had a nickel for every Frazetta or Wrightson rip off I have seen I would be rolling in dough. As I said, inspiration is great, but the whole point of art (to me) is to reach within and find an enduring personal vision. We are all at the mercy of our sub-concious in many ways anyway....why not revel in it? I think the main problem is that people compare to much. They see other people's art and say "I wish I were that good" and to get there they think they must copy. If more artists had better self esteem and the patience to put up with a lot of crappy drawings just to get better (this can take years....YEARS!) we might see some really fantastic art crop up in the future.
    Alas, this copying bug seems to be a historical pattern. Look at what happened to paintings after Carrivagio, or Picasso and Braque. Perhaps there are destined to be rip off styles forever. Some people would rather lift directly than work hard. And for anyone who does copy consistanly... believe in your own vision. I know it can seem like it's not quite there yet, BUT EVEN THE BEST ARTISTS HAVE LOVE HATE RELATIONSHIPS WITH THIER ART. No one is always satisfied with thier own stuff. But if you finally make the next step on your own, you can be satisfied knowing it was all within you. End Rant.

    Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite. Inwardly we commit every crime in thought, but outwardly we are irreproachable.

    -Jiddu Krishnamurti
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    I completely agree with you but I wouldn't just limit it to Star Wars art. I see a lot of repetitive themes and visual patterns in fantasy illustration as well. trolls, goblins, elves, warriors and whatnot. How many variations on same ideas have we seen that look almost identical? I think this is far more prevalent and counter-productive than Doug Chiang ripoffs.

    Personally, I believe copying is somewhat inevitable, though. I think it comes with over-familiarity of a certain style. I know I do it. For me, I think I'm "influenced" by H. R. Giger, too much. If I look at my stuff, I see a lot of borrowed themes from Giger's biomechanical style. Tubes, exposed skeletal structures, various bony protuberances, and long-limbs are some repetitive elements I see in my work and that's arguably a bad thing.

    I think that the best was to avoid it is to develope a sense for the kind of shapes and patterns that come easy and natually to you. Just use some scratch paper and go nuts. I tried it out a couple times and it's fun at least.

    Anyone else have any solutions?

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    I'm kinda new here as far as posting and my art skills will make it seem like I know nothing, but I'll share my opinion anyway.

    I don't think its bad at all that people buy these books and try to match the style, as long as it is not like line for line the same. In art school we used prismacolor markers alot, I didn't really care for them. Then I bought the Star Wars book and saw that these guys were using them, so I gave my markers a new chance and I seem to be liking them alot more. I bought the 2nd star wars book awhile ago and Demot Powers stuff blew me away, so I tried to match his style. One of my teachers gave me some advise he said you can't reinvent the wheel you can only study it and try to make improvements on it, so for me I have really maybe average or a little below average skills for drawing people or concept art. I need to learn what these guys are doing by learning what their doing matching it then improving apon it.

    I know I will be trying to get Scott Robertson's book and will be trying to do what those guys are doing. So I guess what I'm trying to say is buy the books enjoy the art learn from these guys, but try to improve on it by adding yourself in there some where. I don't think it's the book or books fault it's whatever the artist decides to do with it.

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    Hey, people can do whatever they want. I just have a very low degree of respect for people who's artistic livelyhood rests more on other people's visions than thier own. I would also like to say that your teacher who claimed that you "can't reinvent the wheel" may or may not be right, but that is a crappy thing to tell aspiring artists. Once you cut off that possibility you are cutting off all the energy that can come from the feeling that you might be onto something genuinely new. How the hell does he (or anyone else) know whether or not anything completely new and original can be created? I don't, you dont, he doesn't...so why say it at all? Just because you and I cannot concieve doesn't mean it can't exist.

    Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite. Inwardly we commit every crime in thought, but outwardly we are irreproachable.

    -Jiddu Krishnamurti
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    I think it still would be right what my teacher said, no new artist can make art in the sense that they're the first one. They can always create something new like using dirt for a medium, but in the end it's still just art. Someone can make cool new tires something no one has seen before, but in the end it's still a wheel. I think that would aply to everything if you really think about it. If you created a self protrait of yourself you'd think it would be 100% original cause it's you, well I would say no cause your using paints or some computer program that someone else has used before, the pose would probably be similar to someone other painters work and if you did some new crazy new style, well your still using those paints to create that style. Anything you draw is based on shapes and lines well you can't really invent those they've been done. I mean maybe I'm wrong, but I'm trying to think of something that hasn't been invented with totally new materials that we never seen before and I just can't.

    I think he wasn't trying to cut our energy to create something new. I think he just meant quit siting and not drawing cause your just trying to think of something new and thats it. I always used to get frustarted I would just sit there and go my art isnt different in anyway, so I'm just gonna sit here until I create a new style. Instead of looking to see what the great ones did before me and learn what they did and then apply it to come up with something new. I see alot of painters work in galleries that have a cool style but there anatomy sucks or they put colors together that don't work together and it looks like crap, well if they would have studied someone who knew the color wheel, then tried doing what they were doing they would have a cool new style and it would look good.

    Last edited by Madman!; October 16th, 2002 at 06:40 PM.
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    You think what your teacher said would be right, but ultimately none of us know. I can see the value of that sort of comment in comforting worried, ambitious, young artists,(hey I am there myself) but I don't view it as philosophically sound in general. It is an assumption, and in negating the possibility of something completely original you effectively sever any energy that may have arose from that idea that you could make something (truly) new. I prefer infinity as my mind's canvas, upon which I envision my art. Concepts such as these (that is, not being able to "reinvent the wheel") are limitations even when they are limitations within broad boundries. Why must we pretend to even know whether it is possible or not?

    Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite. Inwardly we commit every crime in thought, but outwardly we are irreproachable.

    -Jiddu Krishnamurti
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    maybe what I'm saying doesn't make sense. I'm not trying to get into an arguement. I'm new here as far as posting and I don't want to be banned or anything, I'm just trying share what I think.

    I can see what your saying about having infinity for you ideas, but whether my teacher is right or wrong for setting limitations in my mind, they're still correct you can't deny that. All of the earth and space was here and all paints and meduims come from the earth.

    Lucas and the designers there are doing nothing new. They stick animal parts and different ships together to make something look new, but it isn't new they use parts of things that pre exsist. Doug Chaing uses prismacolor makers those aren't new, they use perspective that isnt new. Setting a movie in space that isnt new.It was a new way of doing a movie setting, but space was there and people have thought about space before George lucas, am I glad he thought about it yeah cause I never have and thats the point these books may show a kid something they have never thought of before and then push there mind further to create a new style.

    I'm not trying to be like am the end all opinion, I'm just saying that if you create something new you have to use something that has parts or ideas from something that has been done before thats not opinion thats fact. I can't think of one thing that you can say that uses nothing that didn't come before it. I mean try it I can name tons of things and they all stem from somewhere, phones, cars, airplanes break it down a phone is just a new way of communicating, car and airplane are just new ways of transportation. They all stem back to the earth and it's materials and there shapes they hold. A cave man probably saw a rock role down a hill and sparked the idea for a wheel, so who invented the wheel the cave man, no the rock did, but wait you can take it back farther if you believe in god well god did or the mother earth invented the rock.

    Should you have the mind set like you do hell yeah I want to believe I can invent anything. Hopefully this stays disscusion cause I'm not out for war.

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    I think that the best was to avoid it is to develope a sense for the kind of shapes and patterns that come easy and natually to you. Just use some scratch paper and go nuts. I tried it out a couple times and it's fun at least.

    [/B]
    great idea EXO! its all about exploring those abstract shapes!

    -Joshua

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    Thumbs up

    Originally posted by SamusNeo
    Hey, people can do whatever they want. I just have a very low degree of respect for people who's artistic livelyhood rests more on other people's visions than thier own. I would also like to say that your teacher who claimed that you "can't reinvent the wheel" may or may not be right, but that is a crappy thing to tell aspiring artists. Once you cut off that possibility you are cutting off all the energy that can come from the feeling that you might be onto something genuinely new. How the hell does he (or anyone else) know whether or not anything completely new and original can be created? I don't, you dont, he doesn't...so why say it at all? Just because you and I cannot concieve doesn't mean it can't exist.
    owww I LOVE IT ....great post! ........say it proud! "NEVER SAY NEVER!"

    btw i see you're on treasure island...are they finished filming the HULK?
    ...also do you know a guy named Brenton Corns who interned with LucasArts over the summer and got an extended contract?? he also lives on treasure island!

    -Joshua

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    Originally posted by Madman!
    maybe what I'm saying doesn't make sense. I'm not trying to get into an arguement. I'm new here as far as posting and I don't want to be banned or anything, I'm just trying share what I think.
    sounds like you are feeling a bit ashamed to share your opinion...you should not ever have to feel that way...i doubt anyone always says the right thing all the time. in a sense we are all students! always learning!

    thanks for sharing your views,
    -Joshua

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  26. #25
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    i like salsa on my burritos

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    JoshuaTheJames...Funny you ask.. Brenton Corns is my roommate! Are you in the SF area? Under your locaton it says CCAD..is it CCAC? I ask beacuse I attend CCAC....
    P.S- I just called Brenton and he says that you are the guy he got sonic advance from... Go figure!

    Oh yeah, one more thing. Salsa is good on burritos. I always get "hot" if I have a choice.

    Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite. Inwardly we commit every crime in thought, but outwardly we are irreproachable.

    -Jiddu Krishnamurti
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    lol that is funny....

    heh! i still need to send Brenton that sonic manual...

    CCAD is the Columbus College of Art and Design in Ohio...

    Brentons cubical was right acrossed from mine ...I saw him head banging to his music for the whole summer.

    as for you davi !!!!!!
    :o
    the Northgate plaza near LucasArts has a great burrito place and its pretty cheap!

    -Joshua

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  29. #28
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    I bet if i made a jock strap out of boogers and butthair id be the first person to ever do it. EVER!!!

    but then again,, i guess that group of government scientists who are secretly monitoring my thoughts have probably just caught wind of this, and the jockstrap will probably be in production by the end of the week.

    -Lono

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    hey my brother went to CCAD. i went there to visit him once... i saw a Lot of hippies.

    -Lono

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    HMM just hippies ....now there is a wide varity of hippies, hip hop artists, black white people(not black and white people...blackwhite people, preps, ditsy girls, skaters, dirty skaters, smelly fine artist and joe shmoes...

    :crosseyed

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