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Thread: Do you believe?

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    Question Do you believe?

    I'm sure that this topic has come up before, and I hope I don't regret bringing it up, but I would like to know what the general outlook of this community is on religion.
    I go to a pretty liberal college, and there is this group called s.a.n.e. (society of agnostics, nonbelievers and the enlightened) that is constantly staging protests of one form or another against religion. I'm not going to detail it here but this group does seem to use a lot of unfair tactics when it comes to their crusade against religion. I bring this up because I don't want this thread to turn into some kind pissing contest, I just want to hear some opinions, lets start with mine:
    Personally, I am a Catholic, and after studying physics and mechanical engineering for a few years I personally believe that there is enough evidence to support the idea of intelligent design. When I say that I mean that there is enough evidence to support the idea of God, there is nothing that can support any one faith over another that is a matter of personal choice.
    I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say.
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    Don't hijack science because your theological belief is to weak to stand up to true scientific method.

    You can guess from that what I am.....

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    General outlook? This place has how many thousands of members? That's super vague... and kind of pointless, really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wendigo View Post
    I personally believe that there is enough evidence to support the idea of intelligent design.
    Uh oh. I am a religious person as well, and I have been following the intelligent design movement for a couple of years now.
    I find them to be one of the most dishonest groups of people I have ever come across.

    Their "tactics" are abysmal and their science is worse.

    It looks like you are rather new here....we have quite a history of evolution/intelligent design/creationism debates on this forum.

    Edit: The best way for me to explain myself is to send you here:
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58880

    This thread has links to a talk by Ken Miller--a biologist, evolutionist, and Catholic. He can explain the intelligent design movement better than I ever could.
    Last edited by emily g; July 16th, 2007 at 12:52 AM.

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    I believe that emily g is awesome.
    I also believe that you don't want to get on the wrong side of the CA Science Brigade, Ladies Auxiliary®. A finer band of skepchicks you won't find anywhere.

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    Fantastic.

    How about this for a deal. If you can read through these 8 previous threads on the subject (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, only a small sample of the total creationism vs. reality threads here) and your point has not been made in any of them, only then do you get to respond to this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell View Post
    I believe that emily g is awesome.
    I also believe that you don't want to get on the wrong side of the CA Science Brigade, Ladies Auxiliary®. A finer band of skepchicks you won't find anywhere.
    I second that motion!


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    I believe in God, I'm a fairly strong Christian, but I don't wish to convert others and hate it when people try to force their beliefs on others.

    Non-believers who try to force their point of view across are just as annoying to me as someone from a religion who tries to convert me.

    From my point of view, most religions are just different sides of the same mountain, trying to get to a similar place. If people just respected other people's religions as much as they respect their own, I'd imagine there'd be a lot less unhappiness in the world.

    - m

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    This thread could explode. So uh.. before the nukes drop.. Believe what you want. I've done a lot of research to come to my own conclusion on this and I usually feed the rabid athiests with my findings. However, I understand the need for a god regardless.




    God is to the Faithful, as a parent is to a child.
    1)The child is free from responsibility as he follows every direction the parent gives him.
    2)The child can break rules, apologise and be forgiven.
    3)The child can be free of stress and live at peace as the parent will protect them.

    #1+2 support Athiesm
    #2+3 support Faith.

    Life is a complicated, stressful and depressing thing. Depending on who you are, you believe what helps you get by.
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  10. #9
    Ellingsworth Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    This thread could explode. So uh.. before the nukes drop.. Believe what you want. I've done a lot of research to come to my own conclusion on this and I usually feed the rabid athiests with my findings. However, I understand the need for a god regardless.




    God is to the Faithful, as a parent is to a child.
    1)The child is free from responsibility as he follows every direction the parent gives him.
    2)The child can break rules, apologise and be forgiven.
    3)The child can be free of stress and live at peace as the parent will protect them.

    #1+2 support Athiesm
    #2+3 support Faith.

    Life is a complicated, stressful and depressing thing. Depending on who you are, you believe what helps you get by.

    Great post, agree completely, but I'm an agnostic. I still believe but not in any modern religion. I think there has to be some sort of deity out there in the universe or outside of it. Just not sure, and to say the universe was created from nothing makes me depressed, so I find happiness in believing something out there made our universe. To each their own, no need to push opinions on each other.

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    Any system that statically denies the pursuit to find a better system of understanding is fundamentally wrong. Simply believing in something because it makes you feel good is the path to ignorance, take a page out of history look at America today and what its become.

    Of course it's perfectly ok to not look for this knowledge, but in the end you don't get to be a part of the conversation.

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    IF God exists he has a sense of irony
    after all we evolved from apes
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    lol wendigo. Wtf kind of agnostics are those. Agnostics don't stage protests. We're the type of people who don't really give a shit one way or another. Go tell them to stop making a bad name for our apathetic nature.

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    Atheist, Intelligent Design is bollocks, militant atheists deserve cockpunches, and the sky is blue. That covers it for me I think.

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    I usually don't write anything in this kind of discussions but...
    I just can't understand why science and religion have to exclude each other. To me they are rather complementary things.
    I also don't understand why there need to be only one explanation for all religions. People want to arrange it into something simple like some vacuum cleaner manual while it's much deeper than that.

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    I wonder what's the percentage of people who think sun orbits around the earth.

    edit : thanks a lot for the link on Ken Miller, Emily. It's very relieving to know there are people like him around. There are great speeches on the topic on this page too : http://www.ted.com/ (among other things)
    Last edited by m@.; July 16th, 2007 at 06:39 AM.

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    Wendigo, in response to one part of your question = why are those non-believers (s.a.n.e) protesting? I dont get it....thats stupid.. So, the non-believers believe its wrong to believe in something -should we belive them? cos thats close to religion as you can ever be...

    M@ - I believe the world is flat, and if you live in Japan, Alaska, or either pole, your going to fall off the edge...

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    Quote Originally Posted by aesir View Post
    lol wendigo. Wtf kind of agnostics are those. Agnostics don't stage protests. We're the type of people who don't really give a shit one way or another. Go tell them to stop making a bad name for our apathetic nature.

    Yes, please don't lump us with any other group. Truth is we as humans don't know anything yet, so basically religion could just be looked as a hypothesis to something we don't understand. Except people treat the matter as fact, can't both sides be a little more objective about this?

    Strip away superstitions that's the only thing wrong with religion, but it doesn't mean there isn't something greater than us going on. We might be a part of something larger. Not everyone has the same concept of God as Christianity, Judaism, or Islam does. So I'm on the fence on this one. Just, stop making it a dick measuring contest... When i can see a debate between the western religions and atheism that doesn't get personal, and filled with emotion/ego, and passive agressive behavior, then I will take what anyone says seriously.

    Live by example, and don't preach. Please, that is all I have to say.

    The only two people I would truly listen to in these debates is emily g and Seedling. Although on both sides of the spectrum they explain themselves better than anyone else could in these debates here, and there have been many. Oh sooooo many. It's like a broken record of George Carlin, and Jesus put together. Only it's not funny or enlightening.

    After post slike these I always have som moment in video that reminds me of something. Here it is. Heed this womens advice, and if you hate hearing the F word well...ok
    Last edited by Costau D; July 16th, 2007 at 07:31 AM.
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    Non-believer. Even though I don't like religion, I don't actively try to tear it down or anything... unless a churchie talks to me and is particularly annoying or ignorant about his or my concept of life. Then I lay into them

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    i never participate in these threads.. because it really is pointless. its not like any one person will 'convert' from one point of stance or belief to another because of a thread on a forum. if they do, they were weak minded to begin with.

    so i say, believe whatever you want, and dont worry about what others believe. if it works for you then great, if it doesnt.. then go on your merry way but at least TRY to live a happy, peaceful life. whatever you believe.. - JAG
    it's only after you've lost everything, that you're free to do anything..

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    @ Lohan: Well played, sir.
    @ JAG: Aparently Stoph had some sort of awakening or some such in a thread gone past. Not sure from what camp to the other etc etc...

  23. #22
    Ellingsworth Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohan View Post
    Do you believe?

    nuff said
    Amazing.

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    As far as why this group is protesting, probably because the other campus religious groups do as well. I don't know about your school in particular, but I went to a pretty liberal college and the few conservative and hardcore christians that went there felt threatened I think. So they made the most noise. They were constantly complaining that some of their student fees went to fund student groups with agendas they didn't agree with, such as the gay and lesbien student group, or a muslim group. Which is funny because if you looked at the actual break down of which groups got money from the student fees and how much the christian groups BY FAR got the largest amounts, yet no one was shouting for them to be stripped of their funding. Despite doing things like the Campus Crusade for Christ's parade of big banners of chopped up babies from late term abortions through campus.

    I think most of the Abramaic (I think thats the term) religions have completely lost touch with the mystical, spiritual side of things and have become obsessed with the rules, structures, and literal meanings of things. Which, to me seems like the most artificial part of religion. I do think it is part of our nature to wonder about "the divine." Whether that stems from our questions regarding our place, purpose, and ultimate destination, or is purely a recognition of the disconnect we have between our minds and our bodies is impossible to really say....but fun to argue.

    Ellingsworth, you say that believing the universe came from nothing makes you depressed...First of all, no one is saying it came from nothing. It came from a fantastically complex, unimaginably enormous physical event, and before that it wasn't "nothing" it was just something else. Secondly being depressed that the world wasn't made in the magical whirl of some dietys finger is ignoring the amazing spectacle that is our world, our universe, and even our brain. I find it more amazing to think that everything around us is the result of unfathomably dense layers of complex interactions the scope of which we can't really even comprehend without the aid of computers, and even then we still grasp at loose straws. Intelligent Design often offers up the arguement of "how could all this amazing stuff be made, without someone to make it?" I find this unbelievably arrogant, and completely blind to the scales largers than man. We imagine an ego, a thing like us arranging things, picking forms for this creature or that....yet the world and the universe is SO MUCH MORE than just us and our simple limited views and angry, constrained egos.

    Here's a quote from Albert Camus' "The Myth of Sysiphus"
    "I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

    Alright, well I've already written enough to ensure that no one reads this, so I'll cut myself off here. If anyone made it...thanks for reading :p
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    religion has its purpose but religion in general is as stupid as the ppl who have FAITH

    i think my mind has faith but as far as iam aware of ..faith is useless and it doesnt change anything(like opinions )) but the illusion of my reality
    what i mean is : we can have faith in any kind of stuff.. but the stuff itself doesnt change and if that stuff is reality.. faith does not change it
    reality defines itself and so does truth - no matter what i believe in it wont become truth or real just because i have faith



    why have faith in a god or religion when one can find the truth of it and make the experience of the existence of that god/truth and when i KNOW hes there i dont need to have faith anymore


    why believe in god when i know hes there

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    Quote Originally Posted by -sideshowbob- View Post
    but the illusion of my reality
    what i mean is : we can have faith in any kind of stuff.. but the stuff itself doesnt change and if that stuff is reality.. faith does not change it
    reality defines itself and so does truth - no matter what i believe in it wont become truth or real just because i have faith
    Until you look at some stuff on string theory, and how we collapse waves of potentials and dictate what happens in the universe through our observation of it. But I'm too ignorant of it all to really get into it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wendigo View Post
    Do you believe?
    ...in life after love? (after love, after love, after love...)

    I can feel somethin' inside myself, I really don't think it's strong enough, no...

    Cher songs aside, I also believe that Emily G is awesome. Who's up for banana bread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bDeadBeat View Post
    The only two people I would truly listen to in these debates is emily g and Seedling.
    I just dropped my bagel onto the keyboard in surprise. I’m honored!

    Atheist here. I find great spiritual fullness in the idea that the simple physical laws that govern the universe could have build something as rich in complexity as life. I don’t see anything wrong with the idea of seeing those laws being interpreted as a deity. But I also don’t care to live in a society in which such a view is expected of everyone.

    It takes all sorts to have an interesting world. People on every side range from reasonable to loud and loony. I would get into this more, but I really should be getting some work done now.
    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.

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    My belief on a god is that it's basically another word (or G-d is...) for the mechanics of the Universe, the way stuff works. That plant, in nature, that is not a god, nor is it part of any god, but the ratio that means that it doesn't burst into flames all of a sudden is 'G-d'.

    No, I didn't reach this conclusion by trying to make science fit in with 'my god'. I came to it more as a reaction to what I've been shown throughout my life.


    As for people who openly go out of their way to campaign against religion, I disagree with policy like that. This S.A.N.E. that you mentioned, they've as well as made a new religion out of atheism. Those people really, really annoy me; they don't seem to see what they've done.
    On the same note I have somewhat of a problem with people trying to convert others to their religion, though in the case of Christianity it's considered moral to do so in order to save them; so it can be problematic.


    As for intelligent design/creationism. I personally find the very notion of an intelligent god to be ridiculous. It implies that G-d is sentient, has thoughts and plans. To me any mention of thoughts and plans are just euphemisms or metaphors for chance - the way things are to be.
    To say G-d thinks is in my idea a stupid thing to say because that implies G-d is like Its creations, men, women, sheep*. Then again, plants (as far as we know) don't think.

    G-d didn't come to a conclusion to create the Universe, G-d created and maintains it, but not through thought. That is how I came to my reasoning of the 'mechanics god'.
    G-d is not intelligent; intelligence is part of nature, not the forces behind it.


    *That one's for La Palida.


    Edit: It seems that as I wrote this post Seedling wrote and submitted a post on pretty much the same thing, only written far better. So I suppose all I have left to say now is that, in short, yes I do believe in that deity and also it's spelt and pronounced 'Beigel', not 'Bagel', dammit!

  30. #29
    Ellingsworth Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Steph Laberis View Post
    ...in life after love? (after love, after love, after love...)

    I can feel somethin' inside myself, I really don't think it's strong enough, no...

    Cher songs aside, I also believe that Emily G is awesome. Who's up for banana bread?
    Holy shit(no pun intended)...as I was reading that, in my right hand I had a plate of homemade banana bread with a glass of ice cold strawberry milk, no lie... *Bows before psychic powers.*
    Last edited by Ellingsworth; July 16th, 2007 at 11:33 AM.

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    Okay, I'm glad that so many people have given their opinions, I have not read through every single reply but I think I should clarify a few things:
    1.) When I say there is evidence that God exists I mean that there is proof that the universe has a beginning. Things that happened before the beginning of the universe can have no effect on the universe that exists now, so questions such as "who or what set things in motion?" are not really for science to answer. Now if it is proved that the big bang theory is wrong and that time and space have gone on forever, then I will have to change my position.
    2.)I AM NOT TRYING TO CONVERT ANYONE!!!! , if you don't like religion for whatever reason, and there are plenty of good reasons not to like religion (like suicide bombers and crusades), thats fine.
    I apologize if I've offended anyone, please don't get pissed at me for asking a question.pld:
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