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  1. #1
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    Zeitgeist the movie

    a great documentary talking about religion, 9/11 conspiracy, and the ruling elite.

    http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

    definetely worth a watch through to at least get you thinking about some things... whether you believe any of it or not.


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  3. #2
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    Ah, yes, just saw this the other day. Quite a bit of mind-blowing stuff at the beginning about religion, the same'ol in the middle about 9/11, and some really depressing stuff at the end, how all of us are just being played and there's no way out.... yeah that last part about the one world government got me pretty depressed.

    Some of the hardest hits to religion in this, so churchies, skip it

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    i saw the religious part of this somewhere recently and looked into the accusations.
    here's some info that refutes the claims they make in this film about Christianity and Judaism.
    (don't know about the 9/11 stuff though, as i haven't seen that part of the film)

    info on whether Jesus was just a myth:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/Jesus_myth.htm

    click here to read about the comparison between Mithraism and Christianity:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm

    about Josephus' historical writings about Jesus:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/Josephus_Jesus.htm

    comparison of Biblical Creation account to other Creation stories of the Near East:
    http://www.ancientdays.net/creationstories.htm

    the resurrection in a creed too early to be corrupted by legend:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/1Cor15_3-4.htm

    hopefully this is helpful info for those who choose to read them.
    another great resource is the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.

  5. #4
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    Is it conspiracy theory month on the forums?
    * Help a CA artist! Visit the Constructive Critique section! *



  6. #5
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    just watched part 1, going to watch the other parts later.


    very interesting


    Edit: and my 666th post too!

  7. #6
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    I watched the whole thing, it was lovely. MORE people need to see things likes these.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwillustration View Post
    i saw the religious part of this somewhere recently and looked into the accusations.
    here's some info that refutes the claims they make in this film about Christianity and Judaism.
    (don't know about the 9/11 stuff though, as i haven't seen that part of the film)

    info on whether Jesus was just a myth:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/Jesus_myth.htm

    click here to read about the comparison between Mithraism and Christianity:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm

    about Josephus' historical writings about Jesus:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/Josephus_Jesus.htm

    comparison of Biblical Creation account to other Creation stories of the Near East:
    http://www.ancientdays.net/creationstories.htm

    the resurrection in a creed too early to be corrupted by legend:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/1Cor15_3-4.htm

    hopefully this is helpful info for those who choose to read them.
    another great resource is the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.
    That bit in the movie that said jesus wasn't real I didn't quite warm up to, so I have no problem with that, but if Christianity borrowed from the old testament, that's not disproving a mythological influence, that's just proving it wasn't from ones that developed after that. What about egyptian mythology? I was always under the impression it developed before Judaism?

    EDIT and interceptor, must be something in the air/water/kool-aid that's making everyone suspicious these days

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhineville View Post
    That bit in the movie that said jesus wasn't real I didn't quite warm up to,
    I'm not so sure they were actually saying that Jesus Christ wasn't a real person. I think there's an important distinction to be made there. I think they were actually saying that if Jesus Christ was as an incredible person as has been made out by the bible and one who performed spectacular miracles around the countryside that he lived in, surrounded by his fellow countrymen, then cetainly with all the historians available at that time, there should have been a more substantive historical record of his existence, as opposed to the sole biblical account that we have today. A record that has been, in most circles I believe (as well as in this doc), labelled allegorical and derivative of other religions and not historical. I think that's a very valid point.

    This doc was very good. I don't automatically trust their facts of course, but at the same time, much of what they said makes a good deal of sense in the larger global and historical arena. The one segment that dealt with the ratifying of a North American Union is certainly something I'm going to be looking into.
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    mwillustration, awesome that you are posting some counter arguements. I find the whole debate to be intriguing to say the least.

    I read through most of those links you posted, but one thing I noticed about the writeups on the www.carm.org site was the way in that some evidence is treated as absolute, and thereby a solid basis for an arguement. I prefer to keep an open mind about any arguement, but I have to admit that this one sentence from the first link sparked my skepticism immediately:

    "In other words, the Bible alone is sufficient evidence that Jesus lived, whether or not the critics want to admit it."

    There also seemed to be a lot of this sort of reasoning:

    [The gospels do not have the sense of myth. If anything, they are written as eyewitness accounts. Consider the first four verses of the gospel of Luke which clearly states that it is a researched document.

    * Luke 1:1-4, "Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word have handed them down to us, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you might know the exact truth about the things you have been taught." ]

    essentially, it seems that the arguement being made is simply that the bible is a historical document because it mentions within it that it is attempting to be a historical document, and therefore must be true.

    I will have to check out the case for christ, I believe my roomate has it. Have you encountered any counter arguements that attempt to rely almost excusively on empirical evidence. I would be very interested in checking that out.

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    The 'not having to pay your federal income tax, because the Sixteenth Amendment wasn't ratified' is just total crap.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen...s_Constitution

    Challenging it is a one way ticket to jail my friend.

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    eric lofgren,
    if you're looking for a more historical record of Christ's existence, check out the works of:
    -Josephus (64-93 AD), who references Jesus, His miracles, His disciples, His crucifixion, and that he reportedly rose from the dead.
    for more non-christian sources, check out:
    -Thallus (52 AD) whose work is referenced by Julius Africanus that mentions Jesus' death as fact.
    -also there's Cornelius Tacitus (64-116 AD) who refers to christians as the followers of "Christus", mentions the Christ had undergone the death penalty, and also mentions the resurrection as "the pernicious superstition".
    -Suetonius (120 AD) refers to Christ as the "mischevious and novel superstition"
    -Mara Bar Serapion (before 200 AD) a Syrian philosopher wrote to his son from prison comparing Jesus to Socrates and Plato.
    -also the Talmud and other Jewish writings refer to Jesus as hanging on a cross on the eve of Passover, they mention healings in the name of Jesus, as well as referring to Him along with five of his discipled by name.

    the historical records of Jesus are more multiple than any other person who has ever lived. early existing manuscripts exceed 24,000 with the earliest manuscript being dated as early as 25 years after His death.
    so to say that there needs to be a more substantive record of him is something that is just ignorant of the facts.
    ( the 24,000 number can be found in Time, January 23, 1995, pg.57 as well as McDowell's Evidence That demands a Verdict, vol.1, 1972 pgs.40-48 )

    as for why there aren't more non-biblical records from this time period, well there are said to be very few written works of anything from 30-60 AD and all the works from 50-60 AD are said to be able to fit in bookends only a foot apart. (Blaiklock, E. M. Jesus Christ: Man or Myth? Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1984.)
    also, if there were people around at that time that were witness to Jesus and His ministry, they would most likely become believers and therefore would belong in the category of "biblical" or "christian" writings.

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    oracrest,

    if you're looking for empirical evidence, "The Case for Christ" is a great resource.
    also, i think the book "A Ready Defense" is a good one from all i've heard, although i haven't read it myself. (but alot of the stuff i have read quotes it a ton)

    i tend to agree with you though about the tone of "the Bible is sufficient evidence that Jesus lived".
    i want more as well. and thankfully for those that believe, there is more, alot more.

    as for the Old Testament writings being plagarisms of other existing myths, the only things i know of that can be seen as a possible plagarism in the Old Testament is the creation story as well as the flood- but all of the other mythical writings that have correlations with the New Testament and Christ are all written after the Old Testament manuscripts which strongly suggests that the "Messiah" themes were borrowed from Christianity not the other way around, as the Messiah themes are all taken directly from the Old Testament. that's why it's said the Jesus was prophesied about in the Old Testament.
    check this link for more info on this:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwillustration View Post
    eric lofgren,
    if you're looking for a more historical record of Christ's existence, check out the works of:
    -Josephus (64-93 AD), who references Jesus, His miracles, His disciples, His crucifixion, and that he reportedly rose from the dead.
    for more non-christian sources, check out:
    -Thallus (52 AD) whose work is referenced by Julius Africanus that mentions Jesus' death as fact.
    -also there's Cornelius Tacitus (64-116 AD) who refers to christians as the followers of "Christus", mentions the Christ had undergone the death penalty, and also mentions the resurrection as "the pernicious superstition".
    -Suetonius (120 AD) refers to Christ as the "mischevious and novel superstition"
    -Mara Bar Serapion (before 200 AD) a Syrian philosopher wrote to his son from prison comparing Jesus to Socrates and Plato.
    -also the Talmud and other Jewish writings refer to Jesus as hanging on a cross on the eve of Passover, they mention healings in the name of Jesus, as well as referring to Him along with five of his discipled by name.

    the historical records of Jesus are more multiple than any other person who has ever lived. early existing manuscripts exceed 24,000 with the earliest manuscript being dated as early as 25 years after His death.
    so to say that there needs to be a more substantive record of him is something that is just ignorant of the facts.
    ( the 24,000 number can be found in Time, January 23, 1995, pg.57 as well as McDowell's Evidence That demands a Verdict, vol.1, 1972 pgs.40-48 )

    as for why there aren't more non-biblical records from this time period, well there are said to be very few written works of anything from 30-60 AD and all the works from 50-60 AD are said to be able to fit in bookends only a foot apart. (Blaiklock, E. M. Jesus Christ: Man or Myth? Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1984.)
    also, if there were people around at that time that were witness to Jesus and His ministry, they would most likely become believers and therefore would belong in the category of "biblical" or "christian" writings.
    Thanks for the info, Michael. Looks like lots of research there

    Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Jesus didn't exist. I'm saying that the documentary producers were suggesting that the historical record (whatever they may actually be or what form they take) doesn't seem to support the biblical account. I still think it's a fair assessment for them to make, based on their own research.
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    hey eric,

    i understand what you mean about the biblical account.
    if you're interested in whether or not the miraculous events recorded in the Bible are credible or not, look into the works of Josephus who mentions His miracles as well as Jewish Rabbi's of the time, some of which can be found in the Talmud.
    mostly the Jews of His time didn't deny His miracles, but instead denied that they were from God and instead done via demonic influence.

    but above all of that the more miraculous is the prophetic evidence in favor of Jesus.
    http://faithfacts.gospelcom.net/maps_p.html

    * (this is a fave of mine)
    not only does the Old Testament prophesy about Jesus, but the very names found in the geneology of Noah tell the story of Christ:
    http://www.khouse.org/articles/1996/44/

    also, for a good book on the historicity of the Resurrection, "The Son Rises" by William Lane Craig is a good one. a larger version by the same author called "Assessing the New Testament Evidence for the Historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus" is a more in depth study.
    "The Case for Christ" goes into this as well with some good back and forth between the author and the man he interviews about it.
    also see this link if you don't want to get any of the books:
    http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth22.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwillustration View Post
    * (this is a fave of mine)
    not only does the Old Testament prophesy about Jesus, but the very names found in the geneology of Noah tell the story of Christ:
    http://www.khouse.org/articles/1996/44/
    That doesn't really prophesy Jesus, that just tells of an Anointed One, Messiah, that pops up time and time again in Judaism.

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    Youtube "the god that wasn't there" It goes on what if there wasn't a god and usessthe bible as proof and stuff like that. Me I don't worry about that.

    Comment my Sketchbook.

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    Huh???

    pld:
    Same old, same old....it's amazing what the mind can think of when given enough time and space!

    PEACE OUT...8)

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwillustration View Post
    oracrest,

    if you're looking for empirical evidence, "The Case for Christ" is a great resource.
    also, i think the book "A Ready Defense" is a good one from all i've heard, although i haven't read it myself. (but alot of the stuff i have read quotes it a ton)

    i tend to agree with you though about the tone of "the Bible is sufficient evidence that Jesus lived".
    i want more as well. and thankfully for those that believe, there is more, alot more.

    as for the Old Testament writings being plagarisms of other existing myths, the only things i know of that can be seen as a possible plagarism in the Old Testament is the creation story as well as the flood- but all of the other mythical writings that have correlations with the New Testament and Christ are all written after the Old Testament manuscripts which strongly suggests that the "Messiah" themes were borrowed from Christianity not the other way around, as the Messiah themes are all taken directly from the Old Testament. that's why it's said the Jesus was prophesied about in the Old Testament.
    check this link for more info on this:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm
    But again, doesn't egyptian myth (the one the cites Horus as the closest in similarity to Jesus) predate the old testament? If it doesn't then yeah the whole argument of similarity comes under attack since jesus could have STARTED it...

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    an interesting news story that I just discovered. I may be a little behind the curve since i dont watch television news, but Ed and Elaine Brown of New Hampshire have hold themselves up in their house, having not paid income taxes for five years. They are simply demanding to be shown the law which states that they are required to pay tax on their income, and the IRS has still to do this (since it doesnt actually exist). Interesting to see how it turns out. Heres a video of a press conference they had at their home on June 18th

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7_DgSep-ns

    Ron Paul on this story:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1RQkhjV85M

    and some fuck nugget from fox news interviewing Paul just a few days ago:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FEEJ...elated&search=

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    rhineville,

    not sure yet whether the old testament manuscripts are older than the egyptian ones, but i'll look into it.

    as for similarities between Christianity and pagan mythology, here's a good link that covers many of the figures stated in the film.
    http://www.about-jesus.org/paganism.htm
    i haven't had a chance to read through the whole thing yet, but it looks to be pretty well put together from the portions i read.

    rhynome,

    you're right about that particular Bible code not "specifically" mentioning Jesus, but the ramifications it has on the prophetic evidence that Jesus fulfilled is pretty amazing in my view, especially since most Jews expected a purely human Messiah that would bring about political change. most at the time did not think of Jesus as their Messiah because they assumed he would usher in a new earthly Kingdom.
    but it's interesting to see that the Gospel story is pretty much outlined right in the book of Genesis which was written thousands of years before Christ from Jews who had no concept of a suffering savior who would take away their sins.
    in addition, the prophesies from the Old Testament that Jesus fulfills had been shown to be statistically impossible to have been fulfilled in one man without Divine intervention.
    there's a great section in "The Case for Christ" that goes over this in some detail, but here's a link that spells out some of the fulfilled prophecies:
    http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

    and a video that goes over the probabilities involved:
    http://www.leestrobel.com/videos/Chr...robelT1066.htm

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    The ending is quite frightening.

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    I found the comparisons this video made between Egyptian mythology and Christianity interesting because I read a book call "The Jesus Papers" last winter that made a similar connection. The author of the book also was a co-author for "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", which I haven't read, but which inspired the infamous "The Da Vinci Code" book by Dan Brown. Anyways, in "The Jesus Papers", the author did a lot of research in an attempt to find out about what Jesus's early life was like before it is documented in the Bible when he lived in Jerusalem. His research lead him to hypothesize that Jesus may have grown up in Egypt and that there was a unique Jewish temple there with worshipping practices derived/ influenced by ancient Egyptian religious practices. The author goes on to show how these Egyptian practices could have influenced him. It very interesting and helps you place Jesus in a more historical context with the Jewish rebellion against the Romans at the time.

  24. #23
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    Saw it again the other day (3rd time).. a few Q's..

    1. Who wrote/directed/produced 'Zeitgeist'?

    2. What's the point of this documentary? Is this really nothing more than a low/medium budget conspiracy theory?

    3. If it's the most downloaded movie in internet history and on Goggle video, why hasn't this movie caused a social uproar and/or some form of revolution?

    4. Personally, if at least 2 out of the 3 parts of ''Zeitgeist" turn out to be true, my life will instantly chage forever. It's inevitable. Think about it.. if you were to find out one day that the Bush administration or other US official elements actually did have something to do with 9/11, or that the Federal Reserve is basically the root of all evil on planet earth -- would'nt you life change instantly?

    Would you be willing to accept your own enslavement? Have we really turned a blind eye to our politicians? Have we forgotton what makes our country the US of A in the first place? Do we really want to sustain and augment the image of the right wing, fundamentalist Christian, quasi neo-Roman empire war machine we hold in the eyes of an increasingly large number of nations we previously considered "friends"?

    Is this the reality you wish to leave your children?

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    While the ressurection of Jesus is a hot topic of debate, the ressurection of this thread is an undeniable, unconvenient TRUTH.

    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by oracrest View Post
    "In other words, the Bible alone is sufficient evidence that Jesus lived, whether or not the critics want to admit it."

    [...]

    essentially, it seems that the arguement being made is simply that the bible is a historical document because it mentions within it that it is attempting to be a historical document, and therefore must be true.
    Yeah, this is a circle argument, and a logical fallacy. But, consider this: There are after all four gospels, written by four different persons at different times (although all in a short time after Jesus had lived), all accounting for largely the same events. One could aslo argue that the differences between gospels should be seen as supplementing rather than contradicting.

    Also the reason the aforementioned agrument is used is because christians do, after all, believe that the Bible is the word of God, and thus self-validated. If one believes that there is no God, this argument is useless. Otherwise, it might just be the best argument of them all.

    I don't really know how this works, but is there a documentation that validates a nation's constitution? If so, is there another document that validates thi first document? This argument will probably not convert you, but it gives an idea of how christians hold the bible to be self-validated.
    Last edited by Serpian; January 15th, 2008 at 10:44 AM.

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    i've seen alot of documentaries and such by many people such as alex jones and micheal moore.

    but i have to say this is probably one of the better ones.
    not that i am totally absorbed in it and believe it a 100%.
    but it does help you think about your world and whats for the better.

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    AWESOME !! loved this documentary !!!
    blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Vhan juju
    I don't know what happend to guys like you gruve24, but whatever it is, it sure has a way of destroying hearts...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwillustration View Post
    i saw the religious part of this somewhere recently and looked into the accusations.
    here's some info that refutes the claims they make in this film about Christianity and Judaism.
    (don't know about the 9/11 stuff though, as i haven't seen that part of the film)

    info on whether Jesus was just a myth:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/Jesus_myth.htm

    click here to read about the comparison between Mithraism and Christianity:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm

    about Josephus' historical writings about Jesus:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/Josephus_Jesus.htm

    comparison of Biblical Creation account to other Creation stories of the Near East:
    http://www.ancientdays.net/creationstories.htm

    the resurrection in a creed too early to be corrupted by legend:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/1Cor15_3-4.htm

    hopefully this is helpful info for those who choose to read them.
    another great resource is the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.
    carm.org= "CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY "

    Apologetics dictionary definition:
    "a·pol·o·get·ics Pronunciation[uh-pol-uh-jet-iks]
    –noun (used with a singular verb)
    the branch of theology concerned with the defense or proof of Christianity."

    It seems to me that they're hardly an impartial source.

    Also, to pick out another source to bash (to be fair) "The Case For Christ" is hardly scientific either. Lee Strobel basically goes out an interviews with thirteen other people who think the same exact thing he does. It's basically masturbation with words.

    I could probably pick out a few other books articles or websites mentioned in this thread, but it'd get rather redundant. I don't know of any great accounts on the historical "Jesus" that are impartial. I wish I did.

    Anyone interested in cold rationalism (which real Christians are not) should read up on "Why I am not a Christian" by Bertrand Russell. Although not necessarily about whether Christian faith is true, it's certainly about why the religion is damaging to moral and societal progress. Some may find it interesting.

    Anyway, back to lurking.

    edit- I forgot to mention that Zeitgeist is not scientific and way too conspiracy-oriented. It doesn't provide enough empirical evidence and it should definitely leave out its massive amount of (harmful) wild speculation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyFreeze View Post
    The 'not having to pay your federal income tax, because the Sixteenth Amendment wasn't ratified' is just total crap.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen...s_Constitution

    Challenging it is a one way ticket to jail my friend.
    looking at your http...36 states ratiftied the 16th amendment. 3/4 of the states are needed to ratify so wouldnt that be 37.5 states? i always thought that that was the arguement. The supreme court ruled that the 16th amendment gives congress no new tax writing laws. It's the state courts that enforce this unconstitutional unapportioned tax. When you look into where your income tax dollars end up and what unapportioned means is when you start to realize why people get so upset at it.
    watch "from freedom to fascism" by aaron russo (eddie murhphy trading places) where his "follow along" journey to find out the legality of the federal income tax.
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...80303867390173
    Last edited by Jason Ross; January 18th, 2008 at 02:04 PM.

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