Is a 60k undergrad in Illst. worth it?

[JessicaNoel]

Hey folks...I have a two year degree and I'm deciding whether to transfer into a cheap art program at a university vs an expensive one at an art school.
I recently spoke with one of the art teachers at a local state university and she suggested I get my undergrad here and my MFA at a private school since pulling out 60k for undergrad seems a bit much.

However one of my old art teachers told me that an illustration degree is in the "commercial" arts and you can still start paying back loans with a job after you graduate.

I could go try out USF and hate the caliber of work or I could go try out a private art school and feel "had" like I'm paying WAY too much. IDK what to decide.

Does anyone really regret the amt of loans they're paying back now??

[Maxine Schacker]

Jessica, check out the RISD thread. The main question is can you get the skills you need to make a living.It doesn't matter where you get them, but have to get them! Perspective and structural drawing are a must. So is life drawing. For animation and concept art you must grasp movement, and most life drawing courses don't teach it properly. You need anatomy for artists- anatomy that help you draw the figure and understand how it moves. You need to be able to think transparently - to see through the model. Check the thread I started on painting. There's some good advice there on how to approach painting. Too much to go into here. If you're ever in TO come visit us. Our grad show is up now and we'll have new work on the web site soon.

.

[Sharon Knettell]

Hey folks...I have a two year degree and I'm deciding whether to transfer into a cheap art program at a university vs an expensive one at an art school.
I recently spoke with one of the art teachers at a local state university and she suggested I get my undergrad here and my MFA at a private school since pulling out 60k for undergrad seems a bit much.

However one of my old art teachers told me that an illustration degree is in the "commercial" arts and you can still start paying back loans with a job after you graduate.

I could go try out USF and hate the caliber of work or I could go try out a private art school and feel "had" like I'm paying WAY too much. IDK what to decide.

Does anyone really regret the amt of loans they're paying back now??


60k for a degree in illustration is madness unless you go into the gaming industry or animation, and good pay there is not quaranteed. One guy I know, because I taught there, is still working in the RISD store to support himself. The print market is DEAD as a DUCK. I left it 20 years ago with no regrets and went into portraiture and Fine Art. My niece went to the New England Institue of Art in Boston and has a fine well paying job, but it is computer dependent. Here are some samples of my illustration and current work. http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=85936

In a word NO.

[JessicaNoel]

Sharon--Oh my god I love your work! You are so talented. I used to watch Jem when I was little. I aspired to draw just like you. You are awesome!

BUT...on a side note no other public school in FL has an illustration program. If I stay at this local university I have a choice between graphic design and conceptual/contemporary painting.

[Sharon Knettell]

Jessica,

What do you seriously invision yourself doing as an artist, games, computer art, design,grafics or print/book illustration? Investigate what does or does not require a degree. Ask what jobs are available in the direction you choose and whether they require a degree. Also ferret out the pay scales. My niece has a job she loves, designing menus and interior designs for high-end Boston restaurants. She went here for a degree, http://www.artinstitutes.edu/boston/

You DO NOT need a MFA unless you are teaching in public colleges. An MFA is overkill. You do not need a dgree to teach in private colleges or to be an illustrator or any variation of a commercial artist. You DO need a fabulous portfolio. Also do be a competitive illustrator, you have to be the creme de la creme to even survive.

Thanks about Jem. She was fun!

[JessicaNoel]

I'd like to do portraits and print/book illustration. (I know you said that's not that lucrative, lol.) AND I heard that a lot of galleries won't show you until you have an MFA.

[Sharon Knettell]

I'd like to do portraits and print/book illustration. (I know you said that's not that lucrative, lol.) AND I heard that a lot of galleries won't show you until you have an MFA.

You do NOT need a degree to show work in a gallery or to do portraits. I have done both and have never been asked for a degree of any kind.

If you are going into print/book illustration, what kind?. Figurative, cartooney, flat-what style?

[JessicaNoel]

I'd prefer figurative/cartoony. Some of my favorite artists aside from ur stuff are like shawn barber, james jean, and tara mcphereson.

[Sharon Knettell]

Thank-you Jessica

Have you considerd a teaching degree in art. That is the most likely to provide you with an income in the arts. It takes about 7-10 years to get to a seriously professional level in this field. If you don't mind living with the folks while you pay off this loan that would be OK.

Looking at your work, you should really be further along with your work at your age to compete than what I saw on your blog. Two of the people you mentioned are extremely competent figurative artists. They survive because they are very good. Most artist agents will not touch you after a certain age. I was supporting myself from 23 years old on and got a top NY York agent when I was 32.

[Maxine Schacker]

Jessica, it's just as cold in Rhode Island as it is in Toronto. Looking at your portfolio, I'd say they haven't really taught you basic visual language. It looks like an attempt at the new "classical" drawing. You work does show care, focus, sensitivity and in my opinion you have potential. I disagree with Sharon. I think in a properly constructed course of study, with devotion and lots of hard work you could acquire the skills to earn a living in four years. Right now in many sequential arts fields they are desperate for people with basic representational painting and drawing skills. A lot depends on you - your taste, your drive, your real interest. Cartooning is an art and needs real work and understanding. I didn't see any work that shows a response to life force, energy, movement, emotion. I still think that in your financial situation you should consider Max the Mutt. You'd definitely be further ahead than you are now if you'd had two years with us.

[JessicaNoel]

Sharon, although your response was hard to take at first I'm glad that I got to hear it from someone's work I actually respect. Outer opinions from industry professionals are important and I'm glad you were (brutally) honest. I have to confess what you stated has always been an underlying fear in my mind. I'm usually the oldest one in all my classes, and usually not The Best. I think the hardest decision for an artist, or anyone with a "dream" is dictating whether or not the attempt for it is realistic. What's funny is that the basis of a dream consists of faith, self confidence, etc. not necessarily on The Odds. But if the odds are too much against you then it cannot be achieved. Oh well perhaps a dream is but a dream.
=)

[Craig D]

. Most artist agents will not touch you after a certain age. I was supporting myself from 23 years old on and got a top NY York agent when I was 32.

Sharon, would you please be able to elaborate on this a bit. Are you saying agents won't work with older artists (who are new to the business)?
If so is this because there may be a development time where they will not be making much off of you until later?

Thanks,

[Maxine Schacker]

Jessica, don't ignore me - I'm on your side. First, as I respect Sharon, and I'm sure she's familiar with the illustration world, I'm actively engaged in educating and helping students find employment. I know the skill sets our students who found employment possess. I've seen people whose work Sharon would assess as very weak grow to amazing heights in one year of concentrated work...once they began to understand what to look for, what the PROCESS is.

This is all very frustrating for me. I hope you don't abandon your dream, not until you've really had a shot at seeing who you are and what you are capable of. I wish we had an international scholarship. I'll have to work on that one. It would cost you about $17,000 (tuition, supplies, room and board) to do the first year of our program. At the end you'd know what to do next, and if you went back to the states you'd understand visual language well enough to keep growing. I'm not certain we still have openings, but for goodness sake give it some thought.

[Maxine Schacker]

A little later: Jessica, I've been following your posts for quite awhile. I feel as if , in an odd sort of way, I know you, and I find myself hurting for you. I started very late myself, and I've had an interesting professional life. I'm sure when i began most people would have told me it was too late- it wasn't. I had the need, the passion, and the intelligence to find the information and the teaching I needed. Sharon's experience is Sharon's experience. She came of age in a different time. You may not be able to earn your living doing exactly what you wanted to do, but if you develop yourself and have real skills to offer, the odds are that you will find your way. I agree with Sharon that staggering debt is to be avoided, especially for those of us who value our freedom and want to be in a position to take intelligent risks.

How will you feel at 60 if you know you didn't give art your best shot? That's the question I asked myself.

[Sharon Knettell]

To All,

Yes, that was hard, but in reality not all of us possess the skills to be illustrators. In my many years in the business I have seen many,many people drop out. Most of the RISD graduates find themselves in other fields totally unrelated to what they got their degree in. There are just not enough jobs in the arts to support the thousands upon thousands flowing out of the art schools annually.

Today we face a different financial reality, the crushing debt of high tuitions and student loans. This situation cannot be ignored. If you are not well prepared for this business you will face serious financial consequences. I was lucky, my parents were well off, I did not have to pay or earn a dime of college money. My summer jobs went to my wardrobe. But tuitions were a lot lower in relationship to what they are now.

These were my agents when I was in the business, http://www.rappart.com/

They were and still are one of the top reps in the industry.

To be a top artist in the biz you have to devote your life to being one of the best. I had to work many, many times 36 hours at a stretch to deliver a flawless airbrush job. You have to turn on a dime. The big concerns want it now, no waffling and PERFECT. It is not a life for doodlers and dreamers.


Jessica,

It is also really difficult to judge young artists today because the teaching skills in ALL the art schools is SO BAD. The classic skills were lost and the schools have been taken over by clueless 'degreed instuctors' who literally can't paint nor draw. When I taught a workshop at www.scottsdaleartschool.org,
one of my poorest students had a MFA and was teaching art in a local college. It made me ill!

Even though I attended art school for 2 years, I am essentially self-taught.

If you want to try Maxine's suggestion, you have to be willing to work your butt off. Her school sound reasonable and you won't incur the crushing debt load of the other schools I see.

But no school can turn a student into an illustrator or designer unless they are willing to work hard and harder.


Craig,

No they generally don't. You have to have a professional portfolio of work you have done. You have to have a proven track record, even if it is local work. The money is markedly better with a nationally recognized agent because the agencies call them to ask if they have an artist who has a particular skill. Also they alert the agencies to the new talent they have and promote them. You cannot have access these guys have to the top agencies in the country like thse guys have. They are very good at it. This agency has been in business at least 40 years.

[JessicaNoel]

Maxine, sorry I didn't mean to ignore you at all. I just checked out the school website and it looks very interesting. I think it's neat you identify with me and your last post was really touching. ;)

Thanks for the encouragment but I don't think I'm ready for Canada, eh?!!

[JessicaNoel]

Sharon, you're right about the 18th century techniques not being taught well enough. I actually studied under a very talented artist (Kevin Grass, www.kevingrass.com) for my foundation stuff at a local community college. He, like several other artists (you included) emphasizes the importance of drawing and realizes the current state of art teachers/students today who cannot draw. For some reason I thought I had that those techniques down, Pennsylvania Academy gave me two scholarships last fall to attend their school. But who knows maybe that doesn't mean as much as I thought.

[artmessiah]

I looked at your portfolio Jessica and I'm no professional - yet, but I have to respectfully disagree with Sharon. You're cartoon work is not great, but not bad either and your classical figure drawing is better than a lot of young artist. You're only 24 not 44 and even if you were older you still have the skills I think you need to improve. I'm a fan of Sharons work and I do agree that perhaps classical illustration is not as lucrative as it used to be and that might hurt you financially. Don't give up your dreams tho, just try adapting them a little. :)

[JessicaNoel]

Art-Thanks. I looked at your sketchbook I like what I see. How's RSAD going? Like it?? I know a lot of ppl from St. Petersburg College transfer there. We might know some of the same ppl. =)

[Sharon Knettell]

Sharon, you're right about the 18th century techniques not being taught well enough. I actually studied under a very talented artist (Kevin Grass, www.kevingrass.com) for my foundation stuff at a local community college. He, like several other artists (you included) emphasizes the importance of drawing and realizes the current state of art teachers/students today who cannot draw. For some reason I thought I had that those techniques down, Pennsylvania Academy gave me two scholarships last fall to attend their school. But who knows maybe that doesn't mean as much as I thought.


Good Grief! PAFA gave you TWO scholarships! Why didn't you go?

They are one of the last remaining schools that actually have the staff and the knowledge to teach the traditional forms of art. If you learn how to draw and paint well, that is a fabulous foundation for any of the directions you might want to pursue. Go already!

[JessicaNoel]

I didn't go b/c a lot of teachers at my local community college (except Grass) think that PAFA'S education is too 18th century. I was told that it wasn't a good choice for a modern-day education. Aside from that although I had my two year degree they would have kept me for an additional four. And you know, my my art isn't that developed for someone my age and I'd like to get some four year degree before I'm thirty. ;)

[Sharon Knettell]

Jessica,

Poor information, It is the 19th century when many the great art movements came of age. You are too influenced by your friends. Check out the 19th century. Most young 'aspiring artists' are cultural retards.

Do what you will. If at this time you do not have your own point of view or passion, get a safe degree in teaching.

Where do you get your information? Do you accept every comment that comes to you by some misinformed 20 year old?

If as you say, you have a 'passion', then the snow of Toronto should not disuade you.

[artmessiah]

Art-Thanks. I looked at your sketchbook I like what I see. How's RSAD going? Like it?? I know a lot of ppl from St. Petersburg College transfer there. We might know some of the same ppl. =)

I'm starting in the fall as a sophomore, I was going to Manatee Community before. If you haven't already drive down and check out Ringling. It has a beautiful campus and as far as tuition they are cheaper than a lot of other Art schools although most are riddiculously expensive anyway. BTW Check out the Ringling thread here, I'm sure you'll find a lot of the same questions you may ask answered there. Again 24 is not I repeat not old - you're still very young and have a long great career waiting for you if you stick to your goal and passion. Take care

[JessicaNoel]

Sharon what misinformed 20 year olds are you referring to?
Art, I've seen the campus/been accepted, etc. I like Ringling but last time I checked it was a whopping 24k yearly, 2k more expensive per year than SVA in NYC. LOL!

[Maxine Schacker]

Sharon is right. Jessica, you are creating your own fate. What artists, fine artists, of the past do you admire? What illustrators do you think will still be remembered 100 years from now? What are the qualities that move you? What are the skills they have that you don't have? How can you get those skills? You have to begin to think for yourself. You can't just be moved one way and another by the opinions of others- including us! All of this is food for thought.

By this point I would think you'd have a viewpoint. That would enable you to search for and recognize the right school for you.

[JessicaNoel]

Maxine and Sharon,

I obviously have viewpoints otherwise I wouldn't be posting at all. I didn't listen to my friends, I took into consideration while making my decision of well educated art professors who's work I admired. Thats a bit different than heeding the advice of someone who doesn't have an art related career and put alot into knowing/studying art.
Max, I do like a lot of artists like the ones listed in previous posts. I think it takes a technical understanding of the figure/perspective to be a good illustrator and that's what I look for in other people's work I enjoy.

Finding the right school isn't the problem, I have two I'm looking at. It's a financial+time thing.

[Storyboard Dave]

I've kind of held off on chiming in on this thread for a bit because I wasn't exactly sure if dropping 60K is worth it for an Illustration degree and then it hit me that there are other creative people out there- such as fine artists, ceramicists, fabric people, glass blowers, sculptors, etc. ) who drop easily this amount on their education... and realistically have less chance to make it back with any sense of immediacy.

Sometimes it's not a dollar for dollar return. It's not going to be a "I spent X amount to and expect to get X amount back within X amount of years" for everyone. Remember that you are fueled by your creative passion first because that's ultimately why you chose to go to art school. If you were really worried about the dollar return, you would've gone and became a doctor, lawyer, or some other noble profession. Part of what you're paying for at a solid art school is the experience which can't really be quantified in dollars and cents.

I went to a relatively expensive art school and I look back VERY fondly at the diverse approaches to art that my peers had. I look at all of the people I went to school with and see how they've become leaders in their fields. There were many late nights in the studios together, much sawdust shared in the woodshop, late night 7-11 runs and a camaraderie that was built through the misery and hardship of a demanding program. I've become godfathers to many of their kids and have stood up in many of their weddings. These are the sort of things I gained from my outrageously expensive art school experience that money can't quantify.

I only hope that your experience- whatever you spend on it is to your liking.

[JessicaNoel]

Awh thanks Dave! ;)


BTW Sharon I've only had 2 drawing classes and a painting class. I didn't study art in highschool it's the advantage attending 6 in 4 different states and ending up with the good ole' Good Enough Diploma. So I'm mostly self taught too.

[gunnz]

Awh thanks Dave! ;)


BTW Sharon I've only had 2 drawing classes and a painting class. I didn't study art in highschool it's the advantage attending 6 in 4 different states and ending up with the good ole' Good Enough Diploma. So I'm mostly self taught too.

BTW, I would definitely check out Illustration Mundo and look at all the interviews, and listen to the podcasts to give yourself a better of the commercial illustration field as it stands now. If you check out illustrators such as National Forest (www.nationalforest.com), Saiman Chow (www.saimanchow.com), Nanospore (www.nanospore.org) and James Jean (www.jamesjean.com), you can see that illustration has opened up in terms of its application. You can take illustration into different fields, such as merchandising, motion graphics, graphic design, and advertising. I am attending Art Center to study illustration, with an emphasis in motion graphics....and I love it. The level of competition here is high, and people are staying here late all the time to get ahead of others. Personally, this environment drives me to do better. I guess I'm more of a dreamer than a true realist, but I'd say if its what you want to do, go for it and don't look back. Also, I think it's tough to judge a school effectiveness by looking at those people that went there and failed. I know a few kids who complain all the time, never turn in good homework, and just don't put in a lot of effort. Whose fault is that if they end up working at Burger King after graduation? Of course they are going to tell you that they tried really hard, and that the job market is damn near impossible to get into. Is anybody going to force you to be successful?

[gunnz]

Also, I feel like this entire forum has a certain mood that comes from the types(including myself) that look at forums when trying to decide whether school is a good choice or not. Look at how many threads there are regarding debt and whether studying at a cheaper place would be better. I rarely find people on this forum that encourage people to take risks and shoot for their dreams. Isn't that what making art is about??? Personally I worked in a cubicle for three years, making decent money doing marketing, had little debt, and it wasn't worth it. I find that there are people on these forums that are scared of taking the plunge, and discourage other people from doing so as well. Of course, there are people who give genuine advice based on their opinions. Which is good, but can be discouraging to some. If you are trying to become a great, read their bios and interviews and see how they did it. For example, if you read Jillian Tamaki's interview, she worked as a 3d artist for a couple years until her freelance client base was big enough to support her. James Jean had to do portfolio drop-offs everywhere in the beginning, and got his start doing comic book covers. Daniel Clowes, one of my fav comic book artists, couldn't find illustration work after SVA, but he just kept plugging away at his comic Eightball. His ongoing comic, Eightball, has been the basis for Art School Confidential, and pretty soon another movie called Death Ray (to be produced by Jack Black's company). Personally, I read the bios of any successful person, not just in design, and watch The Big Idea religiously. Most people say the same thing....do what you love. Just my two cents.
BTW, Im not disagreeing with anyone, I'm just giving my personal opinion.

[Storyboard Dave]

I occassionally get asked back to my alma mater, CCS to speak to the incoming freshman class at Orientation and one of my first questions to the lot is "Why did you choose art school?" I get a myriad of answers ranging from the reputation of the school, the instructors, the job possibilities, its history, the challenge, etc.. but NEVER have I had anyone say they've attended art school to make a ton of money.

We've all chosen this field based upon our passion to create. Whether it's to weave rugs, cast iron, sculpt clay, style cars, play with typography, shoot pictures, paint portraits, work on movies or whatever... we've all heard the calling to create. Like I said before- if I wanted to make money, I would've become a lawyer, an investment broker or some other noble profession.

Life's too short just to "have a job". I know of too many people that can't wait to punch the clock at 5:00. The really creative people that I work with on a daily basis push and push harder to create because they're innately driven to do so. It's their passion to create coming to the forefront. I work easily 80 hours a week but to call what I do a "job" is nearly a sin. Money has never been a motivator but getting well compensated is just a side benefit.

I'm lucky and blessed to be in a field where my hobby is my profession. I hope that's what every artist can attain as well.

[JessicaNoel]

Gunnz-thx for your input. ;)
Dave-good advice!