I don't want to draw nudes...

[Zirngibism]

I have several reasons for not wanting to draw nudes.

For one, my mom thinks nude drawing is pornography behind the mask of art. (I guess I would partially agree to that.) I'm pretty sure she would be mad at me if she found out I was drawing nudes over at college. Also, I would be rather embarassed to show those drawings to ANYBODY.

Is it a coincidence that the tradition of drawing naked females was started in a time when 99% of artists were male? I asked an older male artist about it, and he said that when he was younger, there was a bit of a sexual aspect.

On asking other artists about why drawing nudes is desirable, they say it's because the subtle curves of the body are difficult to draw. Well, can't we get those subtle curves if women wore flesh-colored bikinis and men wore speedos? I think so. So when I'm in a figure-drawing class, could I just draw those on my models instead of the details on their, uh, parts?

I can't say I'm very religious, but it still feels very wrong to draw parts that aren't allowed to be shown in public by law (at least in my country). I've always been a little shy about such things, always changing in the bathroom stall for gym class, etc...


I guess the bottom line about what I'm asking is that, when in college, could I omit the model's "private parts" without getting my grade docked?

[CaptainInsano]

it's okay to be insecure about your sexuality... as long as your are aware that's the case here. :davi:

[Envisor]

The only reason I draw nudes is to better get accuanted with the human figure wether it be the nude male or nude female. If they had any clothes, I feel it would take away from the experience and knowledge you gain from drawing them. Well thats my oppinion, but I respect yours all the same. I guess it depends on the professors you get whether or not theyll take off your grade. Youll just have to talk to them or ask some of the students who go to the university that your wanting to attend. Anyway, good luck with what your doing.

[Elwell]

Get over it.

[Elwell]

Also, you may want to check out BYU. They have a good art department, and no nude life drawing.
But seriously, just get over it.

[Senira]

I had a friend who felt uncomfortable drawing nudes because her religion had so many regulations about dress and propriety that she also couldn't understand why the models didn't just wear skintight clothing.

The problem with that, as she realized within a few model drawing sessions, is that no matter what type of clothing a person is wearing, their shape and the texture and values of what you're trying to draw are altered. Fabric reflects differently than skin does, and the difference would be garish enough to draw attention to it every time.

As for whether or not you'll get points off, I don't know. In my school the majority of teachers would probably do so. A male nude with "box" genitalia or a crotch that sort of fades off into space would detract from an otherwise realistic rendering, at least in my opinion. And I'm not sure what your major is, but in most drawing-related professions nude figures are a portfolio requirement; companies need to know you can actually draw the human body correctly and you aren't just trying to hide mistakes with clothes.

I'd say take at least two classes before you pass judgment on life drawing. You get desensitized to the models being nude very quickly, especially if you think of them as tools to help you get better as opposed to "Oh no! Naked people! I must shield my eyes!" Like I said, my friend got over her fear of the nude figure quickly, and she turned out some pretty good stuff by the end of the class. If the nudity offends you that much then you can take it up with the professor, but definitely try drawing them first before you do.

[Devvv]

Lol..

Listen to Elwell.

It's going to be hard to learn how to draw the human body if they're not nude.

I was like you when I first began art school. I didn't know what a figure drawing class was at the time. The model(I thought was a student at the time) came in and just sat down like everyone else. When the instructor finally came in to start the class, the model walked to the center and dropped her clothes. Everyone was silent and I even saw so jaws dropped. By the next class, we were all over it.

You don't have to show your parents anything. I still haven't. If they asked, I wouldn't be nervous at all showing them my sketchbook. It's for my education.

And about the "their parts". You don't have to draw them in...I usually omit them and leave them smooth like Barbie and Ken.

Have FUN!

[artmessiah]

Learning to draw the human figure, which also includes learning to draw the skeletal aspect of the figure, is important to drawing believable figures utilizing weight and balance in paintings and drawings. Drawing the figure nude trains your eye to understand the way muscles behave and how they interact with each other. How can you successfully draw clothed figures if you don't know how clothes should drape on the figure. I’ve drawn models with one piece bathing suits and swimming trunks and it does take away from the learning experience. A model in artful poses reflects the beauty of the human figure and is not pornography. I think you have to understand there is nothing wrong with studying the human figure in its truest form and to further enhance your knowledge of the figure - drawing from live nude models is essential. I think a level of maturity needs to be in place before you begin to study the figure in its entirety. I agree with Elwel, your sense of moral on the subject is flawed. Take no offense

BTW after re-reading your post I see you just have issues with the genitelia of the models. You can just omit the parts that may be... embarrassing for you to display to your peers or family ;) :) I think your professor will understand as long as you capture the essense of the models pose. But I still think drawing the figure in all aspects is paramount and like Senira said - you do become desensitised to the model once you start drawing. They there to help you become a better artist not seduce you lol.

[supermark]

Just go into it with a proffesional attitude, and say, "in the end this will help me become a better artist". Look at the models not as playboy centerfolds but as.... models; its not like your at a strip club or something unless you think it will be like that. After you do a couple of sessions you will see the "beauty" of the human body.

Explain to your parents that its not pornography, and it is a requirment to make you better. Just dont be immature about it, and be like " o yea I'd do her"....you get the picture. Drawing nude guys...well there's always ken-doll style.lol. Just put all your concetration and energy into the pad and pencil and you wont even notice.

Or you could tell your instructors that you have a problem, and they should help you out with some advice.

Best of luck and God Bless.

[Nepenthe]

I agree with Senira in that a lot of the time you can go the Barbie and Ken route. In a lot of classes I'm so focused on rendering the rest of the figure that the genitalia seems kind of unimportant (it's such a small part!). Drawing them with clothing on DOES make a difference, no matter how small the amount may be. If the clothing is tight enough to stay on it's going to make bulges and ripples in the skin (around waistbands and things) that wouldn't usually be there. The shadows and reflections will also be entirely different. Honestly, once I walk into the classroom and start drawing the model just kind of breaks down into shapes and colors. You might not end up being as unhappy as you think if you can just detach yourself. And as far as female nude figures starting when 99% of the artists were male, male nude figures were around too. I don't think it's a matter of sexuality so much as practicality, though of course that will vary by the artist. Do try and at least draw the breasts as they're extremely important on the female figure in terms of shape and placement and shadows. If you can't draw them nude it'll be pretty hard to get how the clothing pulls and folds just right. Good luck :)

[alesoun]

Hmmm.... I can't tell you about the grades; but I draw, and when I was younger, I've been a life model. I found that when I was modelling the students were entirely professional about nudity.

Models are chosen by the art school with an eye on a) their physical fitness (modelling and holding a pose can be tough; try holding a pose for an hour if you don't believe me), and
b) the lines their bodies present.

Your model can be male or female, old or young, fit or obese. What they will NOT be is pornographic or offering something your mom wouldn't like!

My husband is a fair bit older than me, and one of the models who posed for him at Edinburgh Art School was Sean Connery. Please don't tell me your mom thinks he's a porno star! Another (VERY) old model at that time was the original model for William Holman Hunt's "Behold, I stand At The Door And Knock". He was well into his 70s at that time.

Honestly, the reason you might be asked to draw nudes is because that's what we all look like without clothes, and we need to understand the human frame before we can understand how material drapes over it.

The first time you draw a model, you may be embarassed, but you will get over it (and, no, they don't walk around nude all the time!).

[jrr]

actually back in the olden days, men would draw male nudes and females would draw only female. the thing is, yes. if you have never seen a naked person the first time you see one will be sexual (but hardly pornographic). but like anything else, you'll get use to it see it for what it is, just DRAWING. unless you're like some sex pervert or something. it's just a method to get you better at drawing. just chill

:::edit:::: ain't no one tellin me this ain't porno!

[supermark]

This is random but I acquired this year a new respect for models. I remeber a long time ago, I stood up in front of class and was a model. ( Btw I wasn't naked,lol.) But anyways, it is hard to hold a difficult pose for even just 30 mintues.

[lordofthebling]

I have several reasons for not wanting to draw nudes.

For one, my mom thinks nude drawing is pornography behind the mask of art. (I guess I would partially agree to that.) I'm pretty sure she would be mad at me if she found out I was drawing nudes over at college. Also, I would be rather embarassed to show those drawings to ANYBODY.

Is it a coincidence that the tradition of drawing naked females was started in a time when 99% of artists were male? I asked an older male artist about it, and he said that when he was younger, there was a bit of a sexual aspect.

On asking other artists about why drawing nudes is desirable, they say it's because the subtle curves of the body are difficult to draw. Well, can't we get those subtle curves if women wore flesh-colored bikinis and men wore speedos? I think so. So when I'm in a figure-drawing class, could I just draw those on my models instead of the details on their, uh, parts?

I can't say I'm very religious, but it still feels very wrong to draw parts that aren't allowed to be shown in public by law (at least in my country). I've always been a little shy about such things, always changing in the bathroom stall for gym class, etc...


I guess the bottom line about what I'm asking is that, when in college, could I omit the model's "private parts" without getting my grade docked?Absolutely. I never draw the genitals; just a simple curve (interestingly, the only people in my classes who do can't draw their way out of a paper bag). The objective of the class is to render the figure with respect to anatomy, proportion, light and shadow, and composition. The teachers honestly don't care.

Anyway, why is it such a big deal? Yes, there will be the occasional pervert who tries to sexualize the whole thing, but your learning environment has no place for that. You're taking the class to learn figure drawing, not erotica. As long as you acknowledge that, and that the models are just professionals who are there to help you learn, it shouldn't be a problem.

I'll admit that I was a bit shy when I started out, but you'll get used to it right away. Try not to think of it as a naked person at all, and instead focus on the gestures, curves, shapes, etc. It may be difficult to explain this type of thing to your folks, but you have to practice it if you want to get any good.

[alesoun]

*falls over laughing* A strangely disturbing image! Actually, Data, I'll have to get back to you on the Holman Hunt thing. Himself's in bed with "Man flu" right now, and he may have exaggerated on that one! (I just checked the dates!) But he did paint Sean Connery! (I know, 'cos one of his friends did, too, and has just sold them on eBay).

We're all naked under the clothes (even the bank manager), and art is supposedly about honesty. Don't worry about it!

[alesoun]

Himself just got up! Holman Hunt's model was called Mancinni (spelling may be wrong) He was still posing in 1952 (before I was born!)

[Maxine Schacker]

Amen.

[MConnelly]

I've been going to nude figure drawing classes (male and female) since I was a 15-year-old boy, and never have there been any sexual undertones at all. Sure, my mom was wary at first, but she quickly came to understand that learning to draw the human form is natural and essential to a serious artist. I think you need to change your attitude towards nudity, because there is absoultely nothing pornographic about the human body.

As to omitting "private" parts, my instructor strongly discourages it because it's not being true to the subject. And in my opinion, avoiding or omitting "private" parts shows a great deal of immaturity.

[Grief]

nudity does not equal pornography. is the human body reqally offensive? we all have nipples and genitals.

ive had years and years of figure study classes, the artists and the model have alwas had a high level of professionalism. it's not like the model is going to be watching your eyes and make a scene if he/she sees you focus on their genitals. and even if you are doing a genital study, you're there to learn, if the artist can be mature about it, then so will the model.

i talk to a lot of non-art majors and they as all sorts of questions about the models "what happens if you pop a boner in class while looking at the model?" and other male orientated crap like that.

if youre at all serious about art, you should be focusing on the form and you wont have room to deviate into perverted thoughts.

any discomfort and awkwardness you have will be gone after 5 minutes of drawing. you're in class to hone your skills. if youre so wound up on nudity, go watch some pornography and vent out any pent up hormores which may disctract you.

as far as not wanting to focus on the 'naughty-bits' most of the time you have assignments, contour, line weight, plane studies, gesture forms, skeletal studies, muscle overlays, foreshortening, negative shape, blind contour, implied movement, etc. point is 90% of your lifedrawing assignments will be so quick and vague that you wont have time to go into details.

and the instructors always make a point to find an interesting composition, meaning you can get up and move your work area to another location.

[Bubs]

Now just hold on a second: You're majoring in art and you're AGAINST studying human anatomy via nudes?

Stop the world, I want off.

Seriously though, what the crap man? How do you expect to get better at drawing people if you don't study the blueprints? Because your mom doesn't approve?

You're going into college; you make your own judgements. If you can't take on something as basic as drawing nudes without approval, how are you supposed to make it in the business, much less the real world?

I can understand if you don't want to accurately portray a man's gangly bits, but a woman's unmentionables are a huge factor on everything they do, ranging from the outfits they wear to their stature. It's absolutely crucial that you study these, otherwise you're not really going to improve regarding figure drawing. You don't have to show your nude drawings to anyone, just practice them enough so that you won't be guessing at every pose you construct.

This might sound a bit harsh, but i'm just trying to be straight-up honest and not beat around the bush. Yeah, it's that important.

[Costau D]

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[Farvus]

This is a bit stupid but on subject.

XUfmyrDfPc0

[BDPatton]

In my case, I found that drawing a nude is really no different than drawing a bowl of fruit. Your intent in both cases is to create the illusion of 3D on a 2D space through positive and negative space. I think you will find 99.9% of the students will be approaching it the same way.

You are new and uncomfortable with it, and that's well and fine but I would suggest just making sure you move to a position in the room where your view of the model obstructs the genitalia as much as possible at first.

Then, if you are really approaching this as seriously as art students do, you will find the atmosphere of the room to be quite academic and no snickering or such will be going on. You will be able to make your own determination about figure studies and its place in art.

BTW, I applaud the rest of the posters in here. A vast majority have been quite understanding and positive in their efforts to understand and help this person.

[Wasp_One]

For one, my mom thinks nude drawing is pornography behind the mask of art. (I guess I would partially agree to that.)
@Data_Strings: I am really sorry your mom thinks that way, and that she influenced your own perception of the human nude. Regardless if it's male or female.

And I personally resent the fact that she insinuates that artist(s) and creative or talented persons would use their love and passion for art and their skills to pervert it into a pornographic frenzy. Merely because they've shown an interest in the human form. And therefore an interest in themselves. For they are no more or less then bones, flesh and blood.

I doubt she would state her case face to face with Leonardo Davinci or Michaelangelo. The pope of that time no less, complimented their skills in representating and sculpting because of their accurate reproductions of Gods creations.

She failed as a parent IMO, especially when it comes to your perception of the human form and your own awareness of self and your own body-image.

You might be the next great artist to arise from anonymity, yet your own mom holds you back in your own development as a person as well rounded and educated individual.

Don't blame those who admire the human form, and "dare" to excersize to reproduce it. Study and learn from it. Where would modern medicine be if we didn't study the human body.

Doctores should be even worse then artists wouldn't they be? They get to touch and examin you when you feel sick or unwell! For free, no less! You end up paying them for a diagnosis and a cure!! Hrm, following that 'logic' your mom would be whoring-out YOU! Yay, your mom has promoted her self to pimp!

The reason you feel uncomfortable with other peoples privates, is because you (read: your mom) makes it sexual. Instead of an oppertunity to learn something simply by observing.

What starts as an educational lesson, ends becoming an sex act; because you make it so. Good job mom! You've succesfully achieved what you don't want your child to be subjected to!

Bottom-line: in actuallity it's your moms thaughts that perverts the human body. Like Ewell suggested: grow-up and get over it. Don't depend on mommy's 'wisdom' so much. Make your own desicissions, take the brush, pencil, charcoal or whatever in hand and just start drawing!

[Zirngibism]

Thanks for all the advice, everyone- lots of overlapping here. I guess I'll have to handle teacher preferences on an individual basis. I never said I wanted to omit breasts, but instead omit details on them.

As for my mom, I do know that she grew up as a Jehova's Witness. She is no longer a member of their tight group, but she still carries a lot of their beliefs with her. I don't know where she stands exactly because she does vote even though they are against voting. (Every once and a while she'll say something that surprises me, though.)

I understand that it's essential to study the human body. Even though the TV would get fasted-through if we saw someone in a bikini, it's not like I can't teach myself how to bear it when I'm also teaching myself something a lot harder called "art".

But I have decided I don't want to show my drawings to my family, which will be breaking a tradition of sorts.

[Seedling]

(Sorry if I'm repeating anything; I don't have time to read the entire thread.)

Hey Data, I'm a woman and I've never felt there was anything sexual about drawing nudes. Every life-drawing session I have has been handled in only the most professional manner possible, and models are treated with the utmost respect. Genitals always seem to be a part of the drawings that aren't discussed much, because the point is not to draw the genitals, but to get a good look at how every other part of the anatomy connects together in those areas that are usually covered up. I doubt your teachers will care if you smudge something vague in those specific areas, and instead focus on drawing the overall shape of the body. (In fact, I would recommend this as a drawing tactic to anyone new to drawing from live nudes.)

I haven’t yet read it, but there is a book by Barbara Bradley called “Drawing People; How to Portray the Clothed Figure” that is sitting on a coworker’s desk here – I have flipped through it and I am impressed by what I have seen of it. You should find a copy.

Anyway, if you want to ever draw people for a living, you will need to spend some serious time drawing from life. And after college you will have a lot more control over whether these people are nude or not. But you should take the opportunity to draw nudes in college, at least.

Once you are in college your parents will never see all of your work. There will just be too much. And you will be an adult; it will be up to you what you show them. They don't need to see your every scribble any more.

[Elwell]

Hi Kristen,

The fact that your mother is a former Witness explains a lot. You have to understand that things which are FORBIDDEN often take on far more importance than they really have. An art school life class is probably one of the least sexually charged environments you can be in. Sometimes drawing nipples or genitals is important or necessary for a particular exercise or pose, sometimes it isn't, but if you make an issue out of not drawing certain elements, then that will be all people will look at.

[lordofthebling]

As to omitting "private" parts, my instructor strongly discourages it because it's not being true to the subject. And in my opinion, avoiding or omitting "private" parts shows a great deal of immaturity.I disagree. First of all, it shouldn't matter what you decide to include, as long as it still hints at an anatomical structure. And since most figure drawing is just the study of gesture, contour, light/shaow and anatomy, it should be the least of anyone's concerns. Like I said, the only people in my class who do include the naughty bits can barely draw. Aesthetics (or getting an accurate likeness for that matter) are not what's important.

Secondly, how is immature? If you're not comfortable with drawing a certain thing, then don't. Do you honestly think it's better to draw something and resent it, or get better at the things you're actually interested in? And being uncomfortable with it doesn't make someone "immature" or "insecure". As long as they don't flamboyantly show signs of embarassment, and act in a polite, professional manner, there is nothing immature about it.

Just a few weeks ago someone brought in a Tom of Finland book to class. Was I grossed out by it? Yes. Did I make a scene? No. Would I ever draw that sort of thing myself? HELL NO.

[tomwaits4noman]

if you want to draw people you have to know anatomy
If you to art classes or take life drawing classes chances are that the model will be nude, and there will be male and female models of all shapes and sizes. I have yet to get aroused while in life drawing. IF maybe Kiera Knightley was the model then maybe....that is a side note.

Pornography as defined in the dictionary

"The explicit depiction or exhibition
of sexual activity in literature, films
or photography that is intended to
stimulate erotic, rather than aesthetic
or emotional feelings."



You mother sounds ultra reserved... that is her choice you probably wouldn't be able to chance that, but what you need to do is decide whether you want to be able to draw well, now if this means going to the libraby and getting life drawing books and books on classical art (plently of nudity in them) and copying them so be it.

On a side note is this art or pornography cause I've been getting feelings that were not "aesthetic or emotional "

picture credit Ed Benes

[Costau D]

OefBFZ98KZw

[MConnelly]

I disagree. First of all, it shouldn't matter what you decide to include, as long as it still hints at an anatomical structure. And since most figure drawing is just the study of gesture, contour, light/shaow and anatomy, it should be the least of anyone's concerns. Like I said, the only people in my class who do include the naughty bits can barely draw. Aesthetics (or getting an accurate likeness for that matter) are not what's important.

Genitalia/nipples are part of anatomy. And the fact that the people in your class who include "private" parts are no good at drawing is a nonissue; it's the opposite in my class. And if you aren't aiming for likeness, then what's the point of drawing from a model?

Secondly, how is immature? If you're not comfortable with drawing a certain thing, then don't. Do you honestly think it's better to draw something and resent it, or get better at the things you're actually interested in?

I think it's better to draw the whole figure even if you resent it. If you don't, you'll never improve.

And being uncomfortable with it doesn't make someone "immature" or "insecure". As long as they don't flamboyantly show signs of embarassment, and act in a polite, professional manner, there is nothing immature about it

Omitting parts brings attention to the fact that they're afraid of the human body, which in my opinion shows artistic immaturity.

[lordofthebling]

Genitalia/nipples are part of anatomy. And the fact that the people in your class who include "private" parts are no good at drawing is a nonissue; it's the opposite in my class. And if you aren't aiming for likeness, then what's the point of drawing from a model?Figure drawing and representational renderings are 2 different things. If you're more concerned with the gesture and form or the pose (which 90 percent of figure drawing exercises are), these miniscule superficial bits such as facial features, body hair, and genitals should be the least of your concerns. Since most poses are short, it's important to leave these less significant details until the end, if you can fit it in the time you're given.

Now, if it was a longer pose that was supposed to be 100% realistic, tht would be another story. However, these are usually only given to the more experienced or advanced students. Shorter poses are more interpretive, and are meant only to capture the basic essentials---nothing fancy.



I think it's better to draw the whole figure even if you resent it. If you don't, you'll never improve.

Omitting parts brings attention to the fact that they're afraid of the human body, which in my opinion shows artistic immaturity.Give me a friggin' break. Do you think Burne Hogarth was immature? In all of his books, I have yet to find a single drawing that included the genitals. Just because someone chooses not to draw them doesn't make them immature.

[MConnelly]

I'm not talking about fine detail... I just think you should acknowledge it's there (which Burne Hogarth does)... but I don't want to argue in someone else's topic anymore.

[CaptainInsano]

OefBFZ98KZw


LOL!!! ROLFLMAO WOW!!!

[Smaragd]

I have several reasons for not wanting to draw nudes.

For one, my mom thinks nude drawing is pornography behind the mask of art. (I guess I would partially agree to that.) I'm pretty sure she would be mad at me if she found out I was drawing nudes over at college. Also, I would be rather embarassed to show those drawings to ANYBODY.

Is it a coincidence that the tradition of drawing naked females was started in a time when 99% of artists were male? I asked an older male artist about it, and he said that when he was younger, there was a bit of a sexual aspect.


I think you're ignoring the fact that male nudes were drawn quite often too. Leonardo da Vinci's male nudes are probably the best known, but many other artists drew nude men too. In fact, people still draw nude men. I actually own anatomy books and art books with nude pictures including the genitalia. Heck, my old Biology book has a section on it.

I understand your shyness of this as a result of your upbringing, but would you feel the same about drawing nude men or is it just women? Surely you'd have no problem drawing a man's nipples. And that would probably be because you don't think of it sexually. As others have mentioned above, if you don't look at it as a sexual thing, it won't be a big deal. It would probably be much better for you if you didn't think about it and simply followed the lines in front of you, not thinking of it as an actual body, but as a still-life.

And I really can't speak for anyone else, but in my drawing classes, we had both male and female students pose for us (as well as a plastic skeleton - the most dramatic of the bunch) and quite a lot of the time their poses were such that you didn't have to draw the groin. For one of the girls, she sat in a chair with her legs crossed. For a guy, he had a sort of "thinker" pose with his leg hiding his groin while the class sketched him from the side. Occasionally, we would have someone pose simply by standing, but overall that was very rare.

I still have the nude pictures I did and I'm very proud of them. With nudes in art, they don't have to show that part of the body, and in fact, there's a lot that don't. To me, that makes a lot of difference. It's not like the positioning of the body is lewd nor is it that there's anything actually sexual about it aside from what the viewer might or might not see. It's simply a person sitting or standing, that is all. I do hope you'll be able to look at it in that way because it's really helpful to any artist and quite necessary.

[SprayNation]

LOL. Humorousness

You can do what I always do: draw whipped cream over the genitals.

[JessicaNoel]

I have to second Elwell on the "get over it" thing. It's not a big deal unless you make it one. If it weren't for genitals for some reason I don't think any of us would be here.

[Storyboard Dave]

I've had to deal with these issues every once in awhile while teaching Figure as well. I just let the students know that this is a VERY clinical setting. The models have a job to do, we instructors have a job to do and quite frankly- the student has a job to do. And that's to draw the human form to the best of their ability. It's nothing pornographic about it unless you make it that and I hope you don't in the classroom.

Can you imagine if you had to go into one of the more noble professions like medicine and couldn't bear to look at a nude body? I doubt it, but again... this is a professional setting and should be treated as such.

[jennibell]

Data - As an illustration student starting my senior year, I have done a LOT of figure drawing/painting/etc. both nude and clothed. I started out just like you - very nervous about drawing a nude person about 6 ft. from me. My fears abounded. What if my face was red? Were they all going to be male 20-somethings? What if there was a model my parents' - or even GRANDPARENTS' - age? Would a male model get aroused in the middle of a pose? What if I knew one of them?

Let me tell you from experience, the situation is not at all what you think it's going to be. The entire atmosphere is very supportive and professional. The model is only unclothed during the pose itself. They always drape themselves (usually with a robe) during breaks, critiques, etc. The rules are spelled out VERY clearly and strictly enforced. You cannot touch the model and they cannot touch you. Any inappropriate behavior (snickering, pointing, jokes, etc) usually results in that person failing the class, and depending on severity, possibly expelled.

If you are still very concerned, most of the time you can (and, in fact, are encouraged to) move to different positions around the model during the session. Please be aware that this does not mean you can just keep moving and only draw the model's back. However, this does mean that if you are in a spot that is very uncomfortable to you - for example, if the male model is crouching or splayed out on a chair, and you are directly in front of him - you can usually move to an area where you are more comfortable - such as an area where his leg is concealing his genitalia.

Now, that said...the human body is a wonderful machine and as an artist (especially an art student), you cannot just "cop out" and do the Ken and Barbie thing. I feel that as you mature and grow as an artist, you will find that the exercises you do in figure class are not sexual in nature AT ALL. I think you will find that the "sexual" issues that you have attributed to the nude figure will take care of themselves when you accept the human body as a natural state, as well as honoring and accepting your embarrassments - then deciding for yourself (HONESTLY) why you feel that way and coming to your own belief system, not just Mom's. I also feel that, in doing that, you will be much more confident in yourself as well as your art - and will be able to defend your beliefs in an intelligent and articulate manner, because you know EXACTLY why you hold those beliefs as opposed to others.

I did that, and now figure drawing is one of my greatest joys. I have explained my reasons and sessions to both my parents and grandmother (she is, like your mother, VERY religious) and they have come to see that my drawings are not pornographic in any way. Yes, there are artists who portray the human form in a lewd and sexual way, but that is their STYLE, not the human body in itself.

I hope this was of some help to you, and best of luck!

[Arshes Nei]

Umm was I the only one that went into a different mode of thinking when I studied life drawing, and found no matter the age and body shape each model was beautiful?

I wasn't going "HOLY SHIT THERE IS COCK IN HERE" and freaked out seeing a nude man, I actually started looking at the structure and lighting, how the muscles moved.

I still wish I could take figure drawing today, it really did detach my mind from how I think when I want to work on other kinds of art, and getting anxiety over making things look right.

I drew in a way that made me feel right.

[Donovan V]

Weather it makes you uncomfortable or not is just a matter of how you think about it. Honestly its not pornographic if you dont think it is. So, if your able to get through that brick wall in your head you'll be jsut fine.

:)

D

[MalevolantGoat]

WOAH
Don't "get over it" that's ridiculous if it truly bothers you you can only do one thing. Give up on art.

If you're going to be closed minded about things like this don't go into art.
It's a waste of people's time to instruct you and it's a waste of your time trying to learn.

I'm assuming you haven't tried life drawing yet, but if you had you'd understand it isn't at all sexual.
If I wanted to appreciate a naked woman I certainly wouldn't do so with a sketch book in my lap.

[artmessiah]

WOAH
Don't "get over it" that's ridiculous if it truly bothers you you can only do one thing. Give up on art.

If you're going to be closed minded about things like this don't go into art.
It's a waste of people's time to instruct you and it's a waste of your time trying to learn.

I'm assuming you haven't tried life drawing yet, but if you had you'd understand it isn't at all sexual.
If I wanted to appreciate a naked woman I certainly wouldn't do so with a sketch book in my lap.

I think the original poster may have moved on, but I don' t think anyone should give up on art just because of minor uncomfortable feelings when starting drawing live nude models. I think in this case - as I already mentioned, it's a maturity factor, which can be overcome. Or she could decide to focus on other aspects of art such as landscapes, stills, etc. But no one should give up on art simply because they prefer not to draw the human body. Granted I feel it would only benefit to do figure drawing, but not doing it or drawing the figure without drawing the genitals isn't going to necessarilly destroy that person as an artist. Her point is she wanted to know how it would affect her grade should she not draw "the private parts" and I think it depends on her instructor and as long as she gets the essence of the pose. I also think once she starts drawing models more often, her initial apprehensive attitude will go away.

[light]

It's called a penis and a vagina, not a "PART"

[ticklishhobo]

I'm ok with nude drawings, as long as the models are hot!!!

[MalevolantGoat]

I think the original poster may have moved on, but I don' t think anyone should give up on art just because of minor uncomfortable feelings when starting drawing live nude models. I think in this case - as I already mentioned, it's a maturity factor, which can be overcome. Or she could decide to focus on other aspects of art such as landscapes, stills, etc. But no one should give up on art simply because they prefer not to draw the human body. Granted I feel it would only benefit to do figure drawing, but not doing it or drawing the figure without drawing the genitals isn't going to necessarily destroy that person as an artist. Her point is she wanted to know how it would affect her grade should she not draw "the private parts" and I think it depends on her instructor and as long as she gets the essence of the pose. I also think once she starts drawing models more often, her initial apprehensive attitude will go away.

I'm personally of the belief that many people should give up art. They don't and my opinion really doesn't matter.
But honestly theres something deeper here then her just wanting to avoid drawing genitalia. You should not limit yourself as an artist because subject matter makes you uncomfortable. This comes back to the whole "an artist is not only an artist" bit. A true artist must understand every nuance of their subject and represent it thusly. Not that it has to be directly representational but there must be a reason aside from censorship for your modifying of visual experience.

Another thing that disturbed me was someone above saying that if you got a crotch shot from the model you can just move to a different location. Really now? When I do figure drawing I like to sit in one place the whole time and draw whatever angle is chanced upon me because it forces me to practice things I wouldn't normally do. I can understand moving if you need to practice something in particular but to move merely because you fear penis is terrible.

So again, if you are not willing to draw something, give up art. If you fear any subject matter at all you are just stunting yourself as an artist. Take it up as a hobby on the side.

And seriously, maturity? If you're going into college you're 17 at the youngest, if we lived in Darwin's world you would have been eaten by a tiger by that age if you hadn't matured.

[artmessiah]

It's called a penis and a vagina, not a "PART"

I was being sarcastic ;)

If you fear any subject matter at all you are just stunting yourself as an artist. Take it up as a hobby on the side.
And seriously, maturity? If you're going into college you're 17 at the youngest, if we lived in Darwin's world you would have been eaten by a tiger by that age if you hadn't matured.

I agree with you 95% - hell even 100%, but I still think it is an individuals feelings to how fast they're ready to enter enlightenment. Once they accept (as you said), all subject matter it will be a vehicle for growth. But again depending on that persons background or instilled perception on things - it may take for a person experience something alien to them at first to open up to it. Which again takes a bit of self maturity, but not totally give up on art :). BTW I seriously think she (the original poster) has left this thread for dead.

[Abigail the Strong]

I know this contradicts almost everyone here, but, I think, that if you really don't feel comfortable about drawing nudes, then people should just let you be. The curves of a human body surely do stretch your artistic endeavors, but there ARE other kinds of things to draw that call for just as much delicacy. Animals, plants, people with clothes ON, vases, planes, buildings, bugs... all types of things that bring just as much interest.
Honestly, I don't like looking at nude drawings, and drawing IS for the pleasure of our sights. I feel that those types of things are not meant to be displayed. Of course, That is only my stand on it.
Do what you feel is best. Don't feel pressured. If you don't want to, DON'T give in. Use other things to expand you art. DO study the human body. You need to know how it works in art. But you don't need to exploit those areas which are to be kept hidden.
You decide.

P.s. I'de listen to your mom. :)

[Elwell]

Abigail, at your age it's perfectly reasonable to be uncomfortable with the idea of nude drawing. And I think most teachers, students, and models would be uncomfortable with you being in a class, for that matter. We are talking about adult attitudes and adult situations here, and Data is on the verge of being an adult.

[FlipMcgee]

This is what happens when you don't draw nudes.

[Xazy]

Liefeld is like the KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAN of the art world...

[Seedling]

I'm ok with nude drawings, as long as the models are hot!!!

Then you are exactly the sort of the person who should be barred from the model session until you mature.

At RISD we were privileged to have a ninety-year-old model while I was attending. Her name was Pearl, and I have no idea if she is still around, but wow, she was fantastic. You could see her bone structure in ways that you would never see it on a young body.

I got to talking with her once and she told me all about how she thinks of nude modeling as being acting, in very very slow motion. She had been doing it for decades, and it was a very dignified activity for her.

She also told me about going for a ride in a barnstormer’s biplane when she was a teen, which was awesome. :-)

[Grief]

Then you are exactly the sort of the person who should be barred from the model session until you mature.

At RISD we were privileged to have a ninety-year-old model while I was attending. Her name was Pearl, and I have no idea if she is still around, but wow, she was fantastic. You could see her bone structure in ways that you would never see it on a young body.

I got to talking with her once and she told me all about how she thinks of nude modeling as being acting, in very very slow motion. She had been doing it for decades, and it was a very dignified activity for her.


wow 90, holy smokes.
it's really hard to appreciate the amount of skill good models actually have. we (my school) tend to cycle through 4-5 models for a variety of body types.

my first term lifedrawing i had a 7 month pregnant model, she was was ready to pop any minute, so all my figures have a enormously large midsections anatomically disproportionate from her nontraditional size. people later critisize me for being inaccurate, but she actually was that large ._.

the older models always are superior, as they can go the longest durations , and have a mastery of subtle poses which are interesting from a large degree of angles.

we get hot-shot males in their twenties who do action poses with props, and i guess its fine for gestural movement studies, but for long detailed studies, they simply pale to the older women.

young models may have healthy, fit muscle tone and more 'appealing' body types, but sometimes you gotta get a gal whos'e seen a few world wars and has the sinewy texture of skin and muscle that only a century of wear can produce, for they can always teach you something new.

i'm an ultra-thin boy, and if i'm at all lucky enough to have a fine old age, i'll consider myself glad to pose for young college kids.

[MalevolantGoat]

I feel that those types of things are not meant to be displayed. Of course, That is only my stand on it.

Why is this? If you'd like to explain. It's not necessary, I'm just interested in the critical thinking behind it.

Of course you may never check back....
oh well

[jcsketch]

I know this contradicts almost everyone here, but, I think, that if you really don't feel comfortable about drawing nudes, then people should just let you be.

...

Honestly, I don't like looking at nude drawings, and drawing IS for the pleasure of our sights. I feel that those types of things are not meant to be displayed. Of course, That is only my stand on it.
....
Do what you feel is best. Don't feel pressured. If you don't want to, DON'T give in. Use other things to expand you art. DO study the human body. You need to know how it works in art. But you don't need to exploit those areas which are to be kept hidden.
I agree completely with these points.

You can just as easily learn anatomy by drawing models with their naughty bits covered up as you can drawing a fully nude model (naughty bits referring to lower torso only)*.

If you've ever seen any kind of picture from a body building contest* you'll know that there is clothing out there which does not confuse the lines of an individuals body, and leaves the rest completely free to be visible. I see no reason why a model needs to be completely nude, especially considering a lot of people wont be drawing the genital details. I consider it to be unnecessary and gratuitous.

*I specify only the lower torso as the upper torso doesn't have "naughty bits" exactly. Not to mention you will be drawing the shape of the torso quite often so it's important to learn correct lines, and especially with female models you will not be able to learn those lines properly with any type of covering interfering.

**I am not in the habit of watching body building contests, lol.

[Elwell]

I consider it to be unnecessary and gratuitous.
Get over it.

[jcsketch]

Get over it.You've said that several times this thread. If you're not going to bring constructive posts do everyone a favor and either stay out of the thread, or read it with your mouth shut.

You can flex your e-muscles elsewhere. This guy is encountering what could be a serious hurdle, and because of that he's requesting some advice. Not smartass comments.

[Zvuv]

Get over it.I personally think this is the best and most concise advice offered. It really is as simple as that, and it will happen inevitably once you've drawn a certain amount of naked people.

[Elwell]

You've said that several times this thread. If you're not going to bring constructive posts do everyone a favor and either stay out of the thread, or read it with your mouth shut.

You can flex your e-muscles elsewhere. This guy is encountering what could be a serious hurdle, and because of that he's requesting some advice. Not smartass comments.
I have said several other things in this thread, i suggest you read them. Along with my smartass comments, I've actually shown quite a bit of sympathy for the various poster's situations, and have offered what i consider to be serious, thoughtful advice. But there's a difference between "I realize I'm probably going to have to take nude life drawing in art school and I'm nervous and uncomfortable about it," (the original poster's dilemma) and I see no reason why a model needs to be completely nude, especially considering a lot of people wont be drawing the genital details. I consider it to be unnecessary and gratuitous.
You, of course, have every right to feel that way. However, it is a far more sweeping and judgmental statement than the original poster's.

[Arshes Nei]

to jcsketch.

Why are you afraid of drawing a penis, vagina and boobs anyways? What if someone in a doctor's office local to you would like you to help with medical diagrams and offers you money?

"Well I don't draw naughty bits" pfft. Think of the children!!!! But then, I guess we can't teach our kids that they have genitals for excretion either. Those are naughty! So much for potty training.

You draw them because they exist, we're supposed to pretend they don't? I'm sorry we have genitals but that is how we function.

No one is asking you do draw the money shot, or people ejaculating all over each other. They are asking you to observe what is there. Now the clothes are off, you see what is there.

That is why Elwell was short and to the point, get over it.

It never bothered me when I went in to my life drawing classes, I was aware I was going to draw those "naughty bits" but when I was actually IN the class, it goes back to my previous apply above. I didn't think of the nudity, I thought of my drawing progress and observation skills.

[jcsketch]

Why are you afraid of drawing a penis, vagina and boobs anyways? What if someone in a doctor's office local to you would like you to help with medical diagrams and offers you money?I'm not 'afraid' of it, I just find it gratuitous.

The example you just gave is exactly the example I gave a friend when discussing this topic yesterday. If I were drawing medical diagrams or books on reproduction then drawing the genitalia (breasts aren't 'naughty bits') would obviously be necessary. But I'm not...

I'm simply attempting to learn proportions and muscle placement so that when I sketch people (and animals too) they look realistic. If a situation arises in which I would be required to draw a figure with the penis or vagina visible, it would be rather simple to add in those details at that time. Otherwise I view it as unnecessary.

I'm not saying other people shouldn't draw them - I really don't care if they do or not. I am saying that I don't think it's a requirement to learn how to draw people. Unless you're going to make a living illustrating brochures for nudist colonies of course... ;)

[Arshes Nei]

I'm not 'afraid' of it, I just find it gratuitous..

I'm not saying other people shouldn't draw them - I really don't care if they do or not. I am saying that I don't think it's a requirement to learn how to draw people. Unless you're going to make a living illustrating brochures for nudist colonies of course... ;)

So in other words you enjoy limiting yourself. Fair enough.

[FalconInverse]

I think drawing the nude form is important for more reasons than just seeing what the naughty bits look like.

When you look at a person, you see a person, and for a beginner, it can be difficult to see anything different.

When you look at a naked woman, you have a choice. You can either look at her as a sexual icon, and let your own personal perversions direct your attempt at art,
Or you can Force your mind to stop thinking of what you are looking at as a sexual object.

The key here, by disassociating the nude from the sexuality, you convince your mind to think of it in terms of shapes and planes, rather than body parts.. and really, i think that is the goal for a fledgling artist.. to learn to draw a body via deprogramming yourself.

In the long run, you wouldn't necessarily be creating works of art that depict a nude figure, but you will have learned how to draw a figure in general, by disciplinging yourself, and drawing with your eyes, instead of your brain.

[lordofthebling]

So in other words you enjoy limiting yourself. Fair enough.Good god, not this again!

[jcsketch]

The key here, by disassociating the nude from the sexuality, you convince your mind to think of it in terms of shapes and planes, rather than body parts.. and really, i think that is the goal for a fledgling artist.. to learn to draw a body via deprogramming yourself.That's a very good point.

Data, you mentioned in your original post that you partially agree with your mother that "nude drawing is pornography behind the mask of art". There certainly are cases where that is true.

However what FalconInverse says is also true. If you've ever experienced a moment when you've found yourself looking at an object and seeing it in your head in line form without thinking about it, you'll have gained a glimpse of what I think Falcon is describing.

If someone is drawing the nude figure for the purpose of it being a nude figure I think I'd agree with your mother. If they're drawing the nude figure for the purpose of understanding the way the light reacts to the skin, where the muscles should go, how to accurately translate a pose onto paper etc that's when they're using the experience to learn.

But of course... if that's what they're using the model for then they don't have to be completely nude (or have the naughty bits drawn in) so we're back to square one.

The best person to answer your grading question would be a staffmember in the art department of whatever college you're considering. I'm certain you could get a hold of one of them and ask them... in all likeliness they've encountered this numerous times.

So in other words you enjoy limiting yourself. Fair enough.Sorry, you'll have to look elsewhere... I don't have any troll food.

If you want to continue the 'discussion' feel free to PM me. I'm not going to derail this guy's thread.

[Arshes Nei]

That's a very good point.

Sorry, you'll have to look elsewhere... I don't have any troll food.

If you want to continue the 'discussion' feel free to PM me. I'm not going to derail this guy's thread.

No you in a pathetic attempt to call me a troll, is derailing the thread. Talking about why one doesn't want to draw nudes, is called being ON TOPIC. But nice try. "oh noes they don't agree with me, I bet calling them a troll is gonna make me a winner". That's just really sad.

Elwell is right, "Get over it". Truer words could not be said.

If you want to limit yourself, with that belief that's fine. You are limiting yourself if you're going to say "you don't need to" It's more like you don't WANT to, but feel that trying to make it a specialty is a need. You don't NEED to do art either, but since you CHOOSE to, here are some of the things to learn. If you want to be a hobbyist, there are plenty of places to feed that muse.

[NoobChic]

1) You are about to go to college and shouldn't be worrying so much about what your mom might think. Time to cut the cord, grow some balls, and be your own person, not the person you think your parents want you to be.

2) You need to go to a strip club and let loose dude. I don't mean get a lapdance or anything like that... I mean look at some women dancing and get over the fact that they're naked and relax about it.

by the way. i'm female and i look at my body naked every day. personally, i don't see anything wrong with it ;) it's a body. it's just skin.

[FalconInverse]

If you havn't actually drawn the nude form before, you may be surprised how completely un-sexy a motionless naked body can be.

In my personal, (humble, and terrifically unbiased) opinion, for a nude to be 'sexual' is very dependant upon facial expression, motion, touch and sound.

There is a lot a person can do with their eyes to look 'sexy', and a lot they can do with them to look the opposite of sexy.

Few and far between are the models who purposely try to look like degenerate sluts in their poses. It actually isn't that easy to do. When you are holding still, it isn't that easy to be sexy, as motion is a big part of sexual display.

I think you will not likely be touching/touched by a model. If you do, it would probably be a result of an anatomy prof trying to demonstrate how a particular joint motion occurs. With the absence of touch, you are very emotionally disconnected from the body.

And lastly, there will be no sound. Quiet isn't sexy.

When you take all the sexuality away from a naked person, you have an artist's model.

Your job as the artist is to approach it with a mature outlook. If you try to find 'porn', you probably will. But if you try to find art, you'll be a much happier camper, and so will your model.

[MalevolantGoat]

Ok this is getting rather stupid with all the ad hominem attacking and what not.

My problem with this whole thing is that those of you uncomfortable with drawing genitalia seem to be so because you have a skewed sense of morality. Religiously directed or not it is logically flawed. No one has yet to point out why drawing a big dick is wrong. Probably, and this is just a guess, because there ain't nothin wrong with it.

Now I understand, because people like to say, "Well it's just my opinion on the matter and that's the end of that" That is wonderful. It really is. But usually, I figured, when people develop an opinion on something they do so because of whatever evidence they've gathered to support their side. The consequence of not basing your opinions on fact is ignorance. Racism is a good example.

As well, I keep reading that it's not necessary. That is not important. The point is YOU ARE A FUCKING ARTIST. If you are limiting your subject matter with no good reason to you are limiting yourself as an artist by extension. It's pretty simple.

Now if anyone can tell me why they believe what they believe, I will happily accept their opinion. If it's not based upon flawed logic. In other words, convince me you actually believe what you believe and it's not just a product of your upbringing/environment.

[NoSeRider]

Look it. The Bible said God made man in his own image.

If you're ashamed of the naked body, then what will happen when you see God come to you naked?

Hey, Galileo was thought of as a heretic until the middle of the 20th century by the Catholic Church....religious opinion is not always objective.

By the way, you're gonna have to stop being ashamed about seeing naked people when you have sex....so you might as well get use to it.

You shouldn't have a chubby during life drawing class anyway....generally.

[nilaffle]

Haha NoSeRider. ;)

I think part of the problem is that in our society we're so programmed to see the naked body as nothing but a sexual object. They're not "naughty bits." They're necessary parts of the human body. Nothing to be ashamed of.

I don't believe you have to draw penises and nipples in intricate detail ALL the time - in fact I'd think it a little weird if you did - but it's in your own best interests to get comfortable with the idea. And like everyone else has said, sitting in front of an easel and a nude model is one of the most non-sexual atmospheres imaginable.

[NoSeRider]

MVXEiYyZKcY&

There's a naked woman in this video. I think there's something more to it then sexual tension?

[darkos]

is USA the country where people got mad when they saw Janet Jackson's nipple? :P Just kiddin'
I can't understand all the drama about nude in art, come on guys we see boobies everyday on TV ads here in France and I don't think that we are all sick perverts :)

[ArtZealot]

it's okay to be insecure about your sexuality... as long as your are aware that's the case here. :davi:

Rather than waste my time on a rant i'm just going to quote captaininsano.

[edit] okay i can't just say that...Your parents are the problem here. I know it isn't going to change a thing by saying it, but it sucks that there are people so insecure and naive as to think that figure drawing is somehow related to pornography. It also sucks they are F'ing up your life, keeping you in their shallow ignorant bubble.

[jcsketch]

As well, I keep reading that it's not necessary. That is not important. The point is YOU ARE A FUCKING ARTIST. If you are limiting your subject matter with no good reason to you are limiting yourself as an artist by extension. It's pretty simple.Generally I don't think people are attempting to make impressive works so much as they are attempting to learn by observing, because it is a learning experience. If you were studying hands you wouldn't draw the arms and torso attached to them even though you're perfectly capable of doing that. However, by your definition you would be limiting yourself.

If you're attempting to make a completed work meant for display or sale then yes, I'd agree with you that you would be limiting yourself.

If you are observing how the muscles of the body are placed, or how the light reflects on skin, or how the lines change when a different pose is taken you are not limiting your subject matter at all by leaving out the genitals. Just the same, when you're working on learning to capture action the sketch is probably going to look fairly loose. You're not limiting yourself by leaving out the details. That's just not the purpose of the exercise.

You aren't using a nude model to learn how to draw people naked... that's an important point that I think needs to be made. If you are doing it for that reason, well... you're doing it for a different reason than I would be.

Now if anyone can tell me why they believe what they believe, I will happily accept their opinion. If it's not based upon flawed logic. In other words, convince me you actually believe what you believe and it's not just a product of your upbringing/environment.Then I will attempt to tell you why I believe what believe :) Hopefully you'll be able to understand what I've been saying then.

For me the reason I don't make a habit of drawing genitals in my anatomy study is because it would serve no purpose other than shock effect.

The reason I'm learning anatomy is so that I can accurately portray how the body twists, bends, reflects light, etc. That is so when I need to draw, say... someone running I can accurately construct the figure so the pose and dimensions look natural. I'm not going to be drawing a nude man running. I'm going to draw a man running in a suit, or shorts and t-shirt, or sweats, etc. I wont be drawing the genitals under the clothing so why do it in study?

I already know I'm capable of drawing the genitals if I wish, that's not what I'm attempting to learn by studying anatomy. That is why I've continued to say it's unnecessary.

[Arshes Nei]

I already know I'm capable of drawing the genitals if I wish, that's not what I'm attempting to learn by studying anatomy. That is why I've continued to say it's unnecessary.

This statement is confusing. Elaborate.

[JL.Alfaro]

This thread is getting silly, well it was silly to begin with-
If you dont want to draw nudes then don't.
If the school requires you to draw nudes as a prerequisite, then you are in the wrong school.
Find a school where you dont have to draw nudes, like accounting or vet school,web design. (even graphic designers have to take it)

personal note:
I find the inside of human beings disturbing, and a little gross- which is why I am not a doctor, nor did I go to medical school. Being a doctor sounded cool when I was young but I stopped myself because of my personal limitations and moral beliefs. I didnt wait until I was at the door of human dissection 101 to say "I dont like this, I dont want to do this".

Point is you need the class to proceed, then proceed- If you CAN"T do it, you're in the wrong business pal.

[artmessiah]

I agree this thread has gotten silly. It's one thing to keep posting if the person that originally posted was responding, but she is loong gone. Let this thread die... please.

[Abigail the Strong]

MelevolentGoat: I believe that I feel that way because looking at those areas was not meant to be from the beginning. There is a "naughty" sense about looking at them. I feel it, and I can guarentee you, that almost everyone feels that when looking there. It's our nature to do wrong, and we do have knowledge of it when we are in it. We can feel it. Displaying those parts feel likes a slap in the face when in comes to being morally pure. Girls looking at girl nudes, and boys looking at boy nudes, is a little different. We all see ourselves in the mirror. But painting eachother and then showing to the other sex feels violating. Michelangelo, who was magnificent at painting the male figure, had a weakness for it. For him, it was like 'making' porn.
I'm writing rather strong words on this because this is how I feel. Please, no one feel at all
Plus, the sexual side of the whole thing is enticing to many. Perhaps not to the artist, but we are not the only ones that look at art. Many people go to art shows, kids too. I don't feel that artists have the right to expose people to that.
I'm writing rather strong words on this because this is how I feel. Please, no one feel at all effended by it. I was asked a question, and I have answered it as thoroughly as I saw fit.

Elwell: I know this is an adult matter, and I appretiate what you said towards me being young and others reguarding that. But I do deal with the matter. I Will deal with the matter more as I get older. No matter when a person deals with it, they most likely will handle it the same.
I've read that a man has a mind like a flip book. When they see an image pleasing to their male side, they save it in there brain, and then can go back to it at any time. I feel that subjecting a man to nude models can at times not be healthy in his life and relationships for that reason.
Girls, of course, have "memories" as well. But it is a bit different. I have seen things, that I still remember, and my mind wonders back to, that I wish I had never seen.
In those ways, I feel that it is important to establish these thoughts at any age. When you choose, you must choose when it comes up, and decide THEN whether to, or not to, in this case, paint nudes.

[NoobChic]

here's a thought. maybe drawing nudes is required as a learning experience not because of the subject matter, but because of the mental separation it teaches you to make in order to draw it.

it's not a penis, it's a few lines and shadows.

it teaches you to see not what society wants you to see (sex), but what is really there or what you intrepret yourself.

ooooo deep.

[Wierdokid182]

Also, you may want to check out BYU. They have a good art department, and no nude life drawing.
But seriously, just get over it.

Love it! Mormon College, good one...:D

[Wierdokid182]

MelevolentGoat: I believe that I feel that way because looking at those areas was not meant to be from the beginning. There is a "naughty" sense about looking at them. I feel it, and I can guarentee you, that almost everyone feels that when looking there. It's our nature to do wrong, and we do have knowledge of it when we are in it. We can feel it. Displaying those parts feel likes a slap in the face when in comes to being morally pure. Girls looking at girl nudes, and boys looking at boy nudes, is a little different. We all see ourselves in the mirror. But painting eachother and then showing to the other sex feels violating. Michelangelo, who was magnificent at painting the male figure, had a weakness for it. For him, it was like 'making' porn.
I'm writing rather strong words on this because this is how I feel. Please, no one feel at all
Plus, the sexual side of the whole thing is enticing to many. Perhaps not to the artist, but we are not the only ones that look at art. Many people go to art shows, kids too. I don't feel that artists have the right to expose people to that.
I'm writing rather strong words on this because this is how I feel. Please, no one feel at all effended by it. I was asked a question, and I have answered it as thoroughly as I saw fit.

Elwell: I know this is an adult matter, and I appretiate what you said towards me being young and others reguarding that. But I do deal with the matter. I Will deal with the matter more as I get older. No matter when a person deals with it, they most likely will handle it the same.
I've read that a man has a mind like a flip book. When they see an image pleasing to their male side, they save it in there brain, and then can go back to it at any time. I feel that subjecting a man to nude models can at times not be healthy in his life and relationships for that reason.
Girls, of course, have "memories" as well. But it is a bit different. I have seen things, that I still remember, and my mind wonders back to, that I wish I had never seen.
In those ways, I feel that it is important to establish these thoughts at any age. When you choose, you must choose when it comes up, and decide THEN whether to, or not to, in this case, paint nudes.


Well, I think that you seem to have it confused. There is a difference between doing work like this:
http://img.slate.com/media/37000/37030/sketch4.JPG

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f296/Wierdokid182/42710.jpg

Old Michelangelo sketchbook pieces, btw, and then

just drawing this:

http://pr0n.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/01/Snapesnogger_-_You_tassssstse_Deliciousssss!.jpg

http://pr0n.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/7/72/Hahahahahaohwhat.jpg


Nudity is nothing.

[steve kim]

on the subject of nudity/porn

sometimes when im watching porn i start getting distracted and analyzing the muscles/body structure. it can't be just me.

seriously though, you get a lot of interesting poses you'd never see in life drawing class. it all adds up methinks!

[Arshes Nei]

I agree this thread has gotten silly. It's one thing to keep posting if the person that originally posted was responding, but she is loong gone. Let this thread die... please.

Well it is a common logical fallacy to believe that the OP is most relevant to whether a thread is worth discussing.

The thing is that there are more like the OP that have this problem with nudes. The discussion is dispelling myths and hang ups with nudes.

When I was stating the person is limiting themselves, I'm looking at the kind of forum this is. This is concept art. Part of the practice is to get used to working on stuff you see, and then learning how to draw it without the advantage of seeing it from angles you may need to conceptualize.

The hangup over nudity is to me like the hangup of not learning how to draw other things. I don't like cars, or buildings, but not learning how to draw them hurts me, even if I am more focused on character design.

I'm sure others in the industry of this type can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the point was to maximize your potential so you're more marketable.

If I just wanted to be a comic colorist and that's it, then there are forums and places more dedicated on focusing that skill. If you just want to do a Sunday Morning comic, maybe Concept Art isn't really the right place for you to present questions.

The OP said they didn't want to do it even though they're going to school. There are a lot of assignments I hated but did them anyways. Now I realize I should have practiced harder on the ones I didn't like because it was only a benefit to me to work at maximizing my potential.

[MalevolantGoat]

Generally I don't think people are attempting to make impressive works so much as they are attempting to learn by observing, because it is a learning experience. If you were studying hands you wouldn't draw the arms and torso attached to them even though you're perfectly capable of doing that. However, by your definition you would be limiting yourself.

If you're attempting to make a completed work meant for display or sale then yes, I'd agree with you that you would be limiting yourself.

If you are observing how the muscles of the body are placed, or how the light reflects on skin, or how the lines change when a different pose is taken you are not limiting your subject matter at all by leaving out the genitals. Just the same, when you're working on learning to capture action the sketch is probably going to look fairly loose. You're not limiting yourself by leaving out the details. That's just not the purpose of the exercise.

You aren't using a nude model to learn how to draw people naked... that's an important point that I think needs to be made. If you are doing it for that reason, well... you're doing it for a different reason than I would be.

Then I will attempt to tell you why I believe what believe :) Hopefully you'll be able to understand what I've been saying then.

For me the reason I don't make a habit of drawing genitals in my anatomy study is because it would serve no purpose other than shock effect.

The reason I'm learning anatomy is so that I can accurately portray how the body twists, bends, reflects light, etc. That is so when I need to draw, say... someone running I can accurately construct the figure so the pose and dimensions look natural. I'm not going to be drawing a nude man running. I'm going to draw a man running in a suit, or shorts and t-shirt, or sweats, etc. I wont be drawing the genitals under the clothing so why do it in study?

I already know I'm capable of drawing the genitals if I wish, that's not what I'm attempting to learn by studying anatomy. That is why I've continued to say it's unnecessary.

I'm afraid you've missed my point slightly. I agree you wouldn't focus on drawing genitalia if you were practicing shading or the structure of the torso. That's very very obvious. I rarely draw penises myself because I suck too much at the more important parts of the body to be focusing on the less structurally important parts.

My point, however, was not that you should always draw genitalia to prove that you are an artist, it was my problem with the thinking that is behind choosing not to draw it. The people I've seen so far giving their opinions on why this is naughty (You're next Abigail) have a very skewed understanding of morality and yet are very resolute in their beliefs on the matter. Socrates would have a hell of a time proving you guys wrong. I'm not that clever but I'll try my best.

So, what was my point then right? All I was saying, in a nutshell, was an attempt (perhaps a weak one) to support the idea that an artist is supposed to be a critical thinker. Originally we were talking about a fairly simple topic.

Can I get away with not drawing dicks in my college life drawing classes?

This question touches upon a different, deeper sociological issue though.
Namely:

Why would you not want to draw a dick?

As an artist you should want to draw everything. Want to experience everything visually, or at least as near as you can come. Meaning, maybe you draw the occasional money shot.
I want all of you to think critically about what your REAL problem is with the human sexual organ. Is it a legitimate problem or is it something you've fabricated with the aid of false concepts handed to you by tradition.

So I think that addresses your statement:
"For me the reason I don't make a habit of drawing genitals in my anatomy study is because it would serve no purpose other than shock effect."

Just to reiterate quickly, wasn't saying it's necessary to draw dicks all the time, just that we should examine exactly why we would morally choose not to.

Thank you JC, I appreciate the response.

[MalevolantGoat]

Hello Abigail,

MelevolentGoat: I believe that I feel that way because looking at those areas was not meant to be from the beginning. There is a "naughty" sense about looking at them.

Alright, sigh, firstly from what beginning? Is this some reference to the Old Testament? Please tell me it isn't because that book has SO many logical contradictions and fallacies it is really not a legitimate basis to argue upon.

Secondly, it wasn't not meant to be (excuse the double negative). There was a time when nobody wore clothes. And there are still places today where dicks just hang out of loin clothes and breasts flap about freely. So that's just plain wrong to state that it was not meant to be from the beginning. It was, in fact, fully meant to be but societal pressures have gone on to muck things up of course combined with that fact that we lack fur, clothing is an efficient means of protection.

And let me just say,
LMAO
There is a naughty sense? Maybe for you.
It is what you make it.

Do you get a naughty sense when you see a monkey's penis?

They are biological organs much like the kidneys or the heart. All they do is allow us to reproduce. I'm guessing its the pleasure they are able to cause that makes them so taboo, but keep in mind the biological processes that allow you to feel pleasure from sex is similar to the one that causes pleasure from eating food.

They are evolutionary responses that encourage us to commit actions like eating and fucking which are necessary to the survival of the individual as well as the survival of the species.

I will not go into the details of evolution unless someone begs me to or denies it, which are sort of the same thing.


I feel it, and I can guarentee you, that almost everyone feels that when looking there.

Ok now I know by answering this obvious logical fallacy I'm setting myself up for a loss.

Allow me to narrate the proceedings from here.
I will address this statement as best I can by saying simply, no most people who do figure drawing regularly do not feel any sense of naughtiness while drawing. I know for me, the atmosphere is very clinical and concerned with the practice of drawing much less then my emotional response to a nude person. My friends say the same, there is simply no time in the process for sexual attraction to the model if you are legitimately studying for the purposes of art.

Abigail, if she continues in this way of arguing, will respond with an unprovable, faith based argument saying essentially that I am either denying the fact I have these feelings or I am morally objectionable.

Simply put, neither of these things are provable so if they are argued they will be ignored.

I can prove I don't have these feelings by observing (and you can come observe if you'd like) that I don't develop a raging erection when I have an attractive model, which I've had on multiple occasions.
I can easily identify her as attractive but that doesn't mean I'll salivate while staring at her goodies. She is merely a subject to be drawn.

It's our nature to do wrong, and we do have knowledge of it when we are in it. We can feel it. Displaying those parts feel likes a slap in the face when in comes to being morally pure.

RED FLAG! I hear Christian sentiments! Bad sign for logic I'm afraid.

I must correct you, it is not in our nature to do wrong, it is in our nature to do what is necessary to succeed as an individual organism within the many. That is a part of evolution. Nobody commits evil for evil's sake, usually evil is defined as an act that promotes oneself while being very disadvantageous for someone else.
Then again we'd really have to get into a philisophical discussion on what the nature of wrong really is.

What is "wrong" abigail?

And, again, I do not see how the displaying of sexual organs demean morality. What do sexual organs have to do with morality?
This is a problem I have with christianity, there were certain rules created that had good intentions ie: population control and the upholding of the strong family unit which is beneficial for child rearing and what not.

But really, these rules have their problems. The limit the individual. And, as we know now, sex does not destroy a family or (because of prophylactics) cause a population boom. It's people and our various psychologies that do these things.

What was I talking about again? Oh right, so essentially what you've given me so far is not really an explanation of why you think the viewing of genitalia is wrong. You have basically said, "I object morally to it" which includes all this talk of naughtiness.

WHAT MY ORIGINAL QUESTION WAS (AND IT'S BIG SO ALL OF YOU CAN SEE IT):::::

WHY DO YOU FIND IT MORALLY OBJECTIONABLE?

Girls looking at girl nudes, and boys looking at boy nudes, is a little different. We all see ourselves in the mirror. But painting eachother and then showing to the other sex feels violating.

Doesn't feel violating to me. And yet again I must ask, why does it feel violating?

Is it possible that you have beliefs passed down through the family that have told you it is a bad thing? Is it possible your religion states it is a bad thing and you should feel weird about it?

Either way, even if those aren't true, why does it feel violating? Because if it's merely psychological and there is nothing actually wrong with it, you have a problem. A problem with reality. You are closed minded and need to really, critically think about why you feel so violated and, maybe, you'll discover that there's no need to feel so bad about this sort of thing.


Michelangelo, who was magnificent at painting the male figure, had a weakness for it. For him, it was like 'making' porn.
I'm writing rather strong words on this because this is how I feel. Please, no one feel at all.

I couldn't comment much on the history of Michelangelo but let me just say, forget all my arguments if it's porn to MICHELANGELO it must be porn to the rest of us.

That was, of course, sarcasm. (just in case)

I really doubt you'd draw porn even if you didn't have a problem with genitalia so why are you using this example? Sure some people put their sexuality into their art, which there is really nothing wrong with as I've been arguing for the last little while but that does not give you an excuse to avoid drawing genitalia. I don't draw porn because I think it's a waste of time, yet I still draw a dick every once and a while. Is that porn? Is porn determined by who gets sexual pleasure from it?

many questions.

Again, I would ask you, what is so wrong with sex? What do you find morally objectionable about it?


Plus, the sexual side of the whole thing is enticing to many. Perhaps not to the artist, but we are not the only ones that look at art. Many people go to art shows, kids too. I don't feel that artists have the right to expose people to that.
I'm writing rather strong words on this because this is how I feel. Please, no one feel at all effended by it. I was asked a question, and I have answered it as thoroughly as I saw fit.

Sure it's enticing to some people, there are pedophiles and sex crazed maniacs in the world and you not drawing a dick ain't gonna stop it.

Again, why is it wrong that people see genitalia? blah blah.

And I realize you feel strongly, if you are a tad misguided in your argument.
But you see how I have a problem with you having such a strong opinion without any actual evidence to support your opinion.

I really appreciate your response Abigail, and though I may have been a little offensive I just wish for you to REAAALLLLY think about your opinion. And then REAAALLLLY support it. I want you to really think critically about why you believe what you believe and then convince me with logic.

It is not in my nature to deny everything that doesn't coincide with my beliefs. I am a very open minded individual. What I try to do, and it's true I'm not perfect, is question everything that is essential to my belief system.

Nobody should accept something merely because they were told, especially not for matters as important as morality, ethics, existence and anything else that relates to individuality and consciousness.

Oh, and thank you very much for you reply Abigail, I sincerely appreciate it.


Arg, and I forgot one more thing.

Why are there all these people attempting to squelch our dialectic?
Shut the hell up.
Yes the original poster has moved on but that neither takes away from the importance of having an intellectual conversation such as this nor does it give reason to end the conversation.

[Wierdokid182]

Alright, sigh, firstly from what beginning? Is this some reference to the Old Testament? Please tell me it isn't because that book has SO many logical contradictions and fallacies it is really not a legitimate basis to argue upon.

Secondly, it wasn't not meant to be (excuse the double negative). There was a time when nobody wore clothes. And there are still places today where dicks just hang out of loin clothes and breasts flap about freely. So
Do you get a naughty sense when you see a monkey's penis?

They are biological organs much like the kidneys or the heart. All they do is allow us to reproduce. I'm guessing its the pleasure they are able to cause that makes them so taboo, but keep in mind the biological processes that allow you to feel pleasure from sex is similar to the one that causes pleasure from eating food.

They are evolutionary responses that encourage us to commit actions like eating and fucking which are necessary to the survival of the individual as well as the survival of the species.

I will not go into the details of evolution unless someone begs me to or denies it, which are sort of the same thing.



I just needed to quote that because I thought it was brilliant. There is no need to be so fearful of this act that's only natural. I think this girl's problem though is that she associates Nudity with doing the naughty. The two don't have to be related. You only read that into this o totally rediculious problem. Get over these insecurities and just face the facts that without our clothing this is who we are underneath it all. Doesn't say anything about you or me. We're all people, and as an artist, you need to embrace that.

[artmessiah]

Why are there all these people attempting to squelch our dialectic?
Shut the hell up.
Yes the original poster has moved on but that neither takes away from the importance of having an intellectual conversation such as this nor does it give reason to end the conversation.

I especially like the "intellectual" response of "Shut the hell up" :nohope: but you are right in a way that people should discuss topics to there liking if it does in fact benefit others. So although people are still discussing this in direct response to what the OP asked for her problem, the topic of nude models and whether to draw them is a broader topic that does need a forum of dialect. Hope this thread helps those artist that have this dilema :yayca: .

[SquirrelQueenofDoom]

Hah. This reminds me of my high school art teacher; I was complaining about having to draw nudes when I got to college and he told me that he was the same way - he didn't want to draw any, uh, male parts in. So his teacher gave him four sheets of 18' by 24' paper and while the rest of the class drew the whole male model, he was forced to only draw the, uh, man part! Filling up the paper! Four times!

He got over it very quickly after that.

[Abigail the Strong]

Well I can't post alot right now, but I will post a little in response to one of your paragraphs.

You asked me why I think it is wrong to look at or draw nudes. The "Sunday Schooler" inside of me wants to say "Because the Bible says so." But it's more than that. (And yes, I am a Christian. And I have to ask what falacies you've found in the Bible. And specifically what you have read and where. When you tell me I will seriously look into them. My belief is not blind and I will look into what you accuse against it.)
Back to the point... Every time I see a nude picture, my heart saddens. There, I've said it, it's a "feeling" that makes think the way I do. The human body is an amazing peice of work. It's beautiful. There is something about, I suppose, sex, that is sacred. It is more then just reproducing. It's a bond.
Showing off that area feels like it's breaking the bond. Like your one step closer to letting everyone into that sacred thing. Like telling a secret.

Truly, I will think about this.
I'm afraid I've gotten off the subjuect of just painting. But it is the way I feel about the whole thing. So there is the first part.

[Katfayheirti]

Jeeze, Malevolent Goat, I agree with your sentiments and logic but you don't have to go stomp all over my religion. :rolleyes: This thread almost has as much self-rightious internet drama/debating going on as Damninteresting.com. I agree that this is a valuable dialogue to keep open, but let's not being it as low (and blatantly off-track) as an evolution/creationism debate.

Here's my anecdotal point of view: I have no problem with drawing nudes and find absolutely nothing sexual about it, however my mother is vehemently opposed to it. She's a flipping Microbiologist. She TOOK "Human Disection 101" yet she still thinks that drawing the human nude is some sort of subversive attempt to disguise pornography. I don't understand it. I mean, the woman dissected her own cadaver, yet she still believes that drawing a naked human body must have something to do with sex. I don't see how drawing a naked person has to be any less clinical than dissecting one. I've argued this point with her again and again, but can never seem to bring her around to my point of view.

Well, it doesn't bother me so much anymore because I'll be snipping the mommy strings shortly and heading off to art college where I can take as many figure-drawing courses as I can fit into my schedule, but years of hiding my figure drawing and anatomy studies have made me a little bitter about this subject. I honestly believe that a good figure artist, like a good doctor, must be able to describe the human form clinically and accurately down to the last detail. (Yes, even including the genitalia)

[FlipMcgee]

Well I can't post alot right now, but I will post a little in response to one of your paragraphs.

You asked me why I think it is wrong to look at or draw nudes. The "Sunday Schooler" inside of me wants to say "Because the Bible says so." But it's more than that. (And yes, I am a Christian. And I have to ask what falacies you've found in the Bible. And specifically what you have read and where. When you tell me I will seriously look into them. My belief is not blind and I will look into what you accuse against it.)
Back to the point... Every time I see a nude picture, my heart saddens. There, I've said it, it's a "feeling" that makes think the way I do. The human body is an amazing peice of work. It's beautiful. There is something about, I suppose, sex, that is sacred. It is more then just reproducing. It's a bond.
Showing off that area feels like it's breaking the bond. Like your one step closer to letting everyone into that sacred thing. Like telling a secret.

Truly, I will think about this.
I'm afraid I've gotten off the subjuect of just painting. But it is the way I feel about the whole thing. So there is the first part.

:rendered:

Quoted for posterity. For the Abigail of the future, when she's already a grownup and hopefully a succesful and mature Christian artist who draws/paints/sculpts nudes (and all other stuff created by God).

[Abigail the Strong]

I just have to ask. Why is it so important to draw the one part of the male and female that we are all talking about. Surely there are other things to draw that liken that area and even help you more in your art. Do they HAVE to be drawn? Can't you simple put some underwear on the model?
That thought just came to me. What is so important about that area?

Flip: Thanks for the post above :)

[FalconInverse]

What is important about it may well include the very reasons why you are averse to drawing it. The sexual apparatus of the body, be it male or female, do have a great significance to our species as a whole.

Consider that ancient greeks used the phallic symbol as a territorial marker, to devide lands. (The greeks did a lot of things that the bible wouldn't be too happy with)

What it does come down to, with most people who have this quesiton/difficulty, is a religious issue. Very difficult to argue from either side.

I don't know what religion the reader of this post subscribes to.. but consider this. If the bible says that pictures of naked people are so terribly wrong, mightn't they have been wiser to have hired someone who wouldn't paint them all over the sistine chapel ceiling?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Lightmatter_Sistine_Chapel_ceiling.jpg

I'd observe that what religious society accept as appropriate and inappropriate changes from religion to religion, and also from era to era..

Some cultures walk around more than half-naked, and this is acceptable. Even here in Toronto, law says that women can go topless if they so desire. Few ever do so, but they have the right to if they wish.

In some cultures, however, a girl could be stoned to death for wearing short sleeves.

There's plenty of good advice in this thread, but nothing that will unmake a lifetime of belief that nudity is wrong. Every artist needs to arrive at their own answer.

Unfortunately, it will restrict and frustrate your oportunities as a learning artist, if you try to go the no-nudes route.

[MalevolantGoat]

Well I can't post alot right now, but I will post a little in response to one of your paragraphs.

You asked me why I think it is wrong to look at or draw nudes. The "Sunday Schooler" inside of me wants to say "Because the Bible says so." But it's more than that. (And yes, I am a Christian. And I have to ask what falacies you've found in the Bible. And specifically what you have read and where. When you tell me I will seriously look into them. My belief is not blind and I will look into what you accuse against it.)
Back to the point... Every time I see a nude picture, my heart saddens. There, I've said it, it's a "feeling" that makes think the way I do. The human body is an amazing peice of work. It's beautiful. There is something about, I suppose, sex, that is sacred. It is more then just reproducing. It's a bond.
Showing off that area feels like it's breaking the bond. Like your one step closer to letting everyone into that sacred thing. Like telling a secret.

Truly, I will think about this.
I'm afraid I've gotten off the subjuect of just painting. But it is the way I feel about the whole thing. So there is the first part.

So just quickly. Crazy crap in the bible there, watch penn and teller's bullshit on youtube, they point out some pretty simple stuff the old testament says about stoning and what not, and they quote it. Basically their point is, if you take some morals from the bible why not take them all. How do you pick. And I read genesis, then I got bored. Honestly I'm working on it. I have reading for highschool to do, unfortunately it takes precedence.

The new testament I know little about.
There are logical arguments I could get into but I won't for everyone's sake.

Check out Penn and Tellers thing here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E)
And please watch the whole thing. Then check it. I haven't as of yet so they could be spouting bullshit themselves for all I know. If it's all wrong and you have the time, let me know.

Theres some stuff I don't remember now, from genesis. PM me and give me a week, I'll write you a nice little essay.

ok back to topic one. I understand where you're coming from, but you have to try to look at it objectively. It is hard to talk to people about such things because certain beliefs are so hardwired from upbringing.

You are right, sex is more then reproduction. It is a psychological necessity. The brain of any animal is designed (haha by NATURE) to desire sex. Human consciousness just increases and complicates this.

If I had to theorize, I'd say we've attached our belief in a supreme being in the most supreme feeling of euphoria (arguable for some lulz...) we know of. At least for those of us who are religious. It makes a lot of sense to do so. But in reality there is really nothing sacred about it. Psychological, yes. Biological, yes. My proof would be simply that only religious people think of sex as spiritual. If it were truly a spiritual experience not only would it prove spirituality, there would be no doubting its spiritual nature.

These feelings you have are simply your conscience. I once had a talk with a Mormon fellow about his beliefs and why he held them so close.
I said, Why is it you believe what you believe? He responded (to my great disappointment) I hear the voice of god. This threw me off because of the total lack of logic in his statement. He really believed it too. So I said what I'd say to test anything else. What did it sound like? He really didn't have an answer and after a pause I gave him a little help. Is it a voice or is it more of a feeling? He quickly adopted the latter explanation. So I said, so if this is just a feeling, how do you know it's not just your conscience giving you moral direction. In other words, how do you know it's not merely you?

Unfortunately (maybe fortunately for him) his stop came up and he escaped to the Mormon church in my hood before he could answer.

Anyway, it had a profound effect on how I saw the whole situation.

As for the bond, that's all society my friend. Marriage is society. The fact we feel a need to call the last person we slept with shortly after doing so is a product of society.

Please, when you have time check out that Penn and Teller thing, and if you wish to discuss further the topic of religion, open a new thread and I will happily spend an inordinate amount of my free time arguing. Or PM.

[MalevolantGoat]

Jeeze, Malevolent Goat, I agree with your sentiments and logic but you don't have to go stomp all over my religion. :rolleyes: This thread almost has as much self-rightious internet drama/debating going on as Damninteresting.com. I agree that this is a valuable dialogue to keep open, but let's not being it as low (and blatantly off-track) as an evolution/creationism debate.

Here's my anecdotal point of view: I have no problem with drawing nudes and find absolutely nothing sexual about it, however my mother is vehemently opposed to it. She's a flipping Microbiologist. She TOOK "Human Disection 101" yet she still thinks that drawing the human nude is some sort of subversive attempt to disguise pornography. I don't understand it. I mean, the woman dissected her own cadaver, yet she still believes that drawing a naked human body must have something to do with sex. I don't see how drawing a naked person has to be any less clinical than dissecting one. I've argued this point with her again and again, but can never seem to bring her around to my point of view.

Never would I stomp on a religion!
And yes the creationism/evolution debate is really stupid, mainly because one side is absolutely ridiculous. Take a guess where my sentiments lie :yayca:.

Is your mum religious? If she isn't I'd be surprised and it would complicate my explanation.

But it's true that even really smart sciency individuals will find a way to fit in their original beliefs. Descartes, for instance, a philosopher who was, undoubtedly, a very clever guy, logically proved the self and all that. His theory was great until you get to the part about god which has been criticized of merely recycling old logical arguments for a divine existence. Classic example of someone attempting to fit evidence into their beliefs, working backwards from regular approach which is to come to your conclusions based on evidence you have.

Uh ohz im getting a lil off topic.

Good luck with college ;)

Abigail, I really don't care about the necessity of drawing dicks. My point, and I think I've said it before, is that people make moral decisions without actually thinking about them. I want you to seriously analyze why you don't want to draw a dick. Why you don't want to see one. Why it bothers you when I say dick instead of genitalia. Is it a legitimate reason? Or is it merely a feeling of programmed forbiddance?

And to whoever said it, shut the hell up works well for what it does.
but if you really pine for intellectuality that bad, you could say it's irony.

Yeah, it's irony.

[artmessiah]

and to whoever said it, shut the hell up works well for what it does.
but if you really pine for intellectuality that bad, you could say it's irony.

Yeah, it's irony.

YOU said YOU were having in intellectual discussion - I merely pointed out "shut the hell up" is not an "intellectual" method of stifling someone who has a polarized opinion or to prove a point. :rolleyes: As I said before I agree with alot of the statements in this thread, I've got o'plenty nude depictions in my SB, but some of this discussion has in some ways gotten off track. Have at it with this discussion - I hope you can manage to enlighten someone with your perception of things. Take care

[jcsketch]

I just have to ask. Why is it so important to draw the one part of the male and female that we are all talking about. Surely there are other things to draw that liken that area and even help you more in your art. Do they HAVE to be drawn? Can't you simple put some underwear on the model?
That thought just came to me. What is so important about that area?Depending on what you're doing, it can be completely appropriate to just put underwear on them or simply leave the details out.

If you're meant to be drawing specifically a nude model (ie: had one infront of you and you're supposed to draw what you see, illustrating medical or biology textbooks, etc) then it would be important to include those details. Really the only cases when you should feel like you have to consider adding the details in is when you're doing work for somebody else who has specifically requested a nude drawing, or when you're in school and working from a nude model like the original poster's scenario. Just ask the staff how to go about it for that last one.

But if all you're doing is practicing the human figure there's no reason you'd have to draw them in. It's not as though you'd have to spend months practicing how to draw genitals being able to do it. It's not a difficult part of the body. If you're excluding those details and still learning what need to about the human form you aren't missing out on anything.

[Arshes Nei]

When I think about a person I want to hire, and I look at their sketchbooks and portfolio. I see a guy who draws tons of figures, of all ages, doing various activities and their life model nudes.

I get two applicants, one person did all of the above, the other person decided to put underwear on them. I notice the difference.

I ask the person who put the underwear on them why did they do this. The person replies how they didn't feel it necessary, or what ever reason they give me.

I say thank you and have a nice day.

The next question in my mind is who is going to be easier to work with? When I see someone have a hangup on something that's basic coursework, I have to question what other kinds of attitude they'll bring when I need them to do work. The difference is, as you are going into an interview, you'll probably never find out about this.

You'll just be told to have a nice day and we'll contact you, only to never hear from them again.

It's good to stand out as an artist so someone remembers you, but you want to be remembered in the right way.

[FalconInverse]

Arshes makes a very good point here.
Even though you may not feel pesonally limited by things you choose not to draw, others will take notice.
If you're drawing for your own enjoyment, that's one thing..
but if you're drawing for your employment, you have to think very seriously about what makes you marketable, and what subtracts from that marketability.

[alesoun]

Data, I took a look at your sketchbook (I think you started it after you started this thread). IMO you have a lot of potential, and I think that life drawing would be beneficial to you if you can get over your nervousness about the idea. There is nothing pornographic about nudity in itself; but the handling of its portrayal can make it look that way. I'm sure you can find a way around this.

[jcsketch]

Arshes makes a very good point here.
Even though you may not feel pesonally limited by things you choose not to draw, others will take notice.
If you're drawing for your own enjoyment, that's one thing..
but if you're drawing for your employment, you have to think very seriously about what makes you marketable, and what subtracts from that marketability.I don't think I'd only list drawing for enjoyment as the only time when you could excluse the details. That implies that if someone rarely ever draws genitals on the human figure they're automatically going to be drawing just as a hobby, not professionally.... which simply isn't true. While learning so that you can get a job drawing professionally it's entirely possible to exclude the details without limiting yourself, which is the scenario that most in the thread have been talking about.

Originally this thread was about somebody learning figure drawing wondering if their grades would be docked. By excluding the 'naughty bits', at the end of the course he'll still come away with the same knowledge about figure drawing as the other students. He'll be able to put together a portfolio of work to present to potential employers based on what he learned.

As I mentioned in my post, there are certainly situations where not drawing 'naughty bits' would result in you appearing to be limited (medical textbooks, a specified nude study, etc ) so in those cases you wouldn't want to exclude the details. If you're attempting to market the work I think it would be a given that you'd have to use fully developed art, so if you chose to draw a nude it would need all the details. Same with if you're putting together a portfolio to apply for a job and wanted to include a nude sketch/painting.

However for people who are training (not drawing for enjoyment) for a professional career in the art field, I don't believe it can be argued that by excluding the genitals they'll appear limited. Chances are future employers wont even see those training sketches.

[Seedling]

However for people who are training (not drawing for enjoyment) for a professional career in the art field, I don't believe it can be argued that by excluding the genitals they'll appear limited. Chances are future employers wont even see those training sketches.

Not true. I advise all students applying for jobs as artists in the games industry to show samples of their life drawings - those same life drawings done in those nude drawing sessions in college.

I, too, would balk at hiring someone who demonstrated an objection to drawing such normal parts of the subject. If it is a moral objection, will they also have a moral objection to drawing certain types of monsters, or certain types of clothing, or in providing art for a story that they feel to be morally objectionable? If the omission is due to immaturity, where else will they exhibit such squeamishness? Either way that is an added hassle that our team doesn't need.

[kais]

alright, to try to answer to the OP's question, I think you really need to see those so-called "naughty parts" as a normal body part. Our history, religions, politics and whatnot have given these specific parts an image that is very visible in our society. But you need to detach yourself from all this background, all this content given to the genital parts and just see it for what it is: a body part with a specific fonction.
All this is really something different for everyone, it's a personnal barrier you need to go past, only you really can find how to overcome this, or not to overcome it.
About the drawing, just take it like any part of the body. When you draw a gesture, you often don't drawing in minute detail, like you won't draw the fingers of the hand, just the general mouvement. same for the genital parts. But for example, you need to do a 2 or 3h pose (a long pose) figure drawing , if you ignore a part of the body, which ever, be it a genital part or a hand, it will just look weird and untrue to what you are trying to portrait.

[jcsketch]

Not true. I advise all students applying for jobs as artists in the games industry to show samples of their life drawings - those same life drawings done in those nude drawing sessions in college.That's why I mentioned:

"As I mentioned in my post, there are certainly situations where not drawing 'naughty bits' would result in you appearing to be limited (medical textbooks, a specified nude study, etc ) so in those cases you wouldn't want to exclude the details. If you're attempting to market the work I think it would be a given that you'd have to use fully developed art, so if you chose to draw a nude it would need all the details. Same with if you're putting together a portfolio to apply for a job and wanted to include a nude sketch/painting."

[Arshes Nei]

Not true. I advise all students applying for jobs as artists in the games industry to show samples of their life drawings - those same life drawings done in those nude drawing sessions in college.

I, too, would balk at hiring someone who demonstrated an objection to drawing such normal parts of the subject. If it is a moral objection, will they also have a moral objection to drawing certain types of monsters, or certain types of clothing, or in providing art for a story that they feel to be morally objectionable? If the omission is due to immaturity, where else will they exhibit such squeamishness? Either way that is an added hassle that our team doesn't need.

Seedling, would it also be fair to say that one of the reasons those life drawings are essential is that a portfolio that just has great art, doesn't demonstrate the time a person spends on drawing?

What I'm saying is you can have 12 awesome pieces in a portfolio, however, if I don't know you that well (ie you're a student coming fresh out of school), the sketchbook will be the devil in the details. If I don't see life drawings in your sketchbook I wonder if those pieces are indeed the artist in question.

It's important to see how you work, not just what you worked on. Those sketchbooks are very key even if you think your sketches are junk. I need to know how you conceptualize, I need to know also how efficient you are.

When you build a reputation in the industry this may become less important. However, most of you are just coming out of school or are "faceless" ...you have to think about what hangups you have that will eventually hold you back. Sure there are artists that break into the industry because of a pop culture appeal, but how many of those are the exception, and they're not the general rule with the other masses out there competing for a spot?

Why give a beginner a chance who has certain hangups when I can find another person who sees this as just a part of the business?

[MalevolantGoat]

YOU said YOU were having in intellectual discussion - I merely pointed out "shut the hell up" is not an "intellectual" method of stifling someone who has a polarized opinion or to prove a point. :rolleyes: As I said before I agree with alot of the statements in this thread, I've got o'plenty nude depictions in my SB, but some of this discussion has in some ways gotten off track. Have at it with this discussion - I hope you can manage to enlighten someone with your perception of things. Take care

Didn't say specifically "I" was having an intellectual discussion but that is neither here nor there.

Sometimes, when certain individuals are merely whining and not actually presenting a point they need to be stifled with as stern "shut the hell up".

It is neither an intellectual response nor a nonintellectual one.
AND if you had read on (which I'm assuming you did) you would have noticed I gave reason for my command.

Cheers.

[steve kim]

you will draw penises and vajayjay's and you will like it

[bakatron]

look kid, youre going to see someone naked sooner or later. why not just do it now?

[FalconInverse]

How does this thread keep getting ressurected? O.o

[Jason Manley]

Wow. Just wow. I would bet fifty bucks that those having "personal and social issues" with the human body are American. no?

If not American, then muslim would be the second guess. See the point? This is a social issue more than anything...at least from my perspective. It is a social issue caused by inexperience more than anything.

I encourage those of you of such mindsets to venture into the rest of the world so you will broaden your currently closed minds.

Those who are having the most issues have most likely not experienced a good life drawing class for a few months, when they would naturally become desensitized to such sensitive parts.


In the words of Elwell:

"get over it!"