Consciousness-raising

[renaissancekid]

Anyone else here spend so much time studying perspective that you connected the dots and realized that your perspectives attained from positions outside (in the world)are from the sphere of the earth we commonly see in image format in books/on television/on interenet, etc?

Anyone raise their consciousness level so high that they felt drawn to study the cosmos professionally and give up art?

[Sammy]

I've been wachin' a lot of Carl Sagan lately too.....

[renaissancekid]

Precisely. :)

[Sammy]

:]

well it's not all for loss --- you don't have to give up your creative abilities. It's profound how much people of study aren't supported, and America has recently been losing its scientific edge. but with the interweb, you can always connect to the most scientific supported nation and help them out with all the illustration they need...... and yes, the cosmos has very little illustrative support.

there hasn't been a good portrayal yet of the "new earth" and what it would look like from the surface.

I wouldn't know how to put you in contact with these people, since I've been trying to find them for quite some time :/

[renaissancekid]

Yeah, I really can't walk outside or do anything without blowing my brain to bits by considering multiple perspectives of our solar system/galaxy simulataneously, then contemplating how easy it is to fall prey to the intoxicating experience that is traditional perception.

I feel like I don't want to go back to regular life anymore. I used to play games and watch television/movies. Nearly half a year now has passed (I've stopped watching/playing). I no longer find them interesting. Now I'm standing outside at night in awe feeling ten thousand chills run down my spine.

[Costau D]

Yeah, I've been having the same notion as well. Not due to perspective practice, but what sammy said. Carl Sagan, and documentaries on Steven hawking. You will find this nifty little flash demonstration quite interesting.:grandpa:

Imagining the Tenth Dimension (http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php)





Click the spinning numbers.

[renaissancekid]

I've seen that flash animation. Truly amazing.

[Costau D]

If you go the route I think you're going, kudos to you man. I hope you're good with numbers. We need more people in the business of studying the cosmos.

If the knowledge of this study could be taught to all people, maybe it will make it seem like the problems in Human exhistance are so irrelevant we may have some fucking peace and God can get some sleep at night. Figuratively speaking.

[renaissancekid]

It's tough. I've gotten through a good deal of the hard work necessary. I didn't expect this to happen.

One thing that tears me apart is this -- we're probably going to have a manned Mars mission in the next 20 or 30 years. Why don't we have oodles of people lining up for that now? How amazing would that be? The first human eyes to gaze upon Mars from its surface. Literally, a floating orb that has teased mankind with it's secrets for far too long.

Only thing I can think is that it's just too damn hard to find the cosmos more interesting than _____ thing or ______ thing.

So hard... Even studying the information sent back from those lucky enough to make the trip would be sufficiently mind-blowing.

[renaissancekid]

.......

[Costau D]

Don't forget. I'm sure you already know this. But on a calm surface such as the ocean, when looking at the horizon that is 8 miles, give or take a few.

[DeadlyFreeze]

One thing that tears me apart is this -- we're probably going to have a manned Mars mission in the next 20 or 30 years. Why don't we have oodles of people lining up for that now? How amazing would that be? The first human eyes to gaze upon Mars from its surface. Literally, a floating orb that has teased mankind with it's secrets for far too long.

If NASA even survives in the next 20 to 30 years I'll be pretty shocked. We got a whole mess or problems just on the horizon.

[renaissancekid]

Yeah. NASA's having a hard time finding a purpose. Budget issues, space station, moonbase..... love triangles...

[renaissancekid]

I didn't know that it was 8 miles Lugh.

[HunterKiller_]

Imagining the Tenth Dimension (http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php)

Thanks for the link. I really enjoyed that.

[Gnosis]

I feel like I don't want to go back to regular life anymore. I used to play games and watch television/movies. Nearly half a year now has passed (I've stopped watching/playing). I no longer find them interesting. Now I'm standing outside at night in awe feeling ten thousand chills run down my spine.


I feel the same way.

Games, movies and most programs on television have largely lost their entertainment value to me, and I find it much more rewarding to wander about in the forests and mountains, contemplating existence and my own position in the universe. It might sound pretentious to most people, and I understand that, but this is the way I've come to feel after thinking a lot and studying philosophy, cosmology, astronomy and biology in my spare time during the course of my lifetime.

But on the other hand, things like Wikipedia and YouTube have given me the possibility to immerse myself in documentaries and talks given by people like Richard Dawkins, Aubrey de Grey, Jeff Hawkins, Brian Greene, Carl Sagan, Ray Kurzweil, Nick Bostrom, Terence McKenna, Timothy Leary, Robert Anton Wilson and other prominent thinkers and futurists.

I quit, or took a break from, visual arts a year ago to pursue a career as a novelist instead, and now I'm writing novels and shortstories on a daily basis in my native language, Norwegian, since my comprehension of English still is too weak to translate my ideas to that language.

I only have a few close friends whom I meet regularly nowadays, since I find most people uninteresting and stupid, and I can't stand their company unless I'm drunk or high on endorphines, dopamine or serotonin. I've experienced my most profound feelings of loneliness in the company of people whom I don't have any intellectual or "spiritual" connection with.
When I'm actually alone I find that I can regulate my emotions simply by neuro-linguistically programming my brain with positive thoughts and affirmations. There are still some fluctuations, but they're manageable, and creative activities gets the neurotransmitters flowing and gives me the necessary high to survive another day in this rather sad world pestered with religious lunacy and ignorant, power-hungry politicians.

(I must add that the novel I'm currently writing is mostly focused on sex, drugs, religion, horror and social dynamics. Not too deep in other words.)

[plundh]

I'm finishing my first year of physics at this very moment, and have had a really hard time deciding between art and science. I've finally settled on the latter because the sad fact is; awe of stars and galaxies is simply not enough, you have to love math to get anywhere. I've had electromagnetics this year and only thinking about all the other boring subjects I'd have to plow through before arriving at astrophysics is daunting. I had calculus exams last week, and I still hate math with a passion. Still, deciding what I wanted to do was basically a toss up. Hopefully I'll be at RCAD this fall, but everytime I see another Hubble photo, I sense a feeling of doubt...

Might as well share this speech by astrophysicist and hero of mine Neil DeGrasse Tyson. It's interesting for two reasons; in the first part he describes an opposite experience where he as a scientist had a revelation through art. In part two he simply shares his awe of the universe and discusses the feeling of insignificance.
7WkGgmEoLkMxpCCjd5rzVI



Imagining the Tenth Dimension (http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php)I feel the need to point out that this is junk science written by some musician.

...
Last but not least:
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5784/largeweb2e733961qx0.th.jpg (http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=largeweb2e733961qx0.jpg)

[Gnosis]

DeGrasse Tyson is cool. Here's another film with him that I liked, where he shows his talent as a comedian as well. It's about "stupid design" as opposed to intelligent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgSaTYLYRGI&mode=related&search=

The ones where he's discussing with Dawkins are also quite good, if my memory serves me right.

[renaissancekid]

.......

[Gnosis]

In this cosmos with a purpose, certain fundamentalists can say without the slightest hint of ambiguity that playing Grand Theft Auto 4 365 days a week is wrong, breaking a standard that was somehow set before the beginning of time (aka, their god said it's wrong.)

Well, playing any game 365 days a week would not only be wrong, but quite impossible, really ... :dur:
But I get your point, and the rest of your post was great and mostly filled with truth (from my subjective perspective, that is).

[renaissancekid]

year. :P

[renaissancekid]

Zvuv,

Thanks for the interesting perspective. What kind of feelings did you experience? Was the year more fulfilling than art? Was it worth it to know that you were living on your sphere, in a quest with specific members of your species to understand the cosmos?

I would imagine that it would have it's own perks and pleasures. One would involve you feeling separated from the vast majority who are content to exist in 'flatland' professionally.

[armando]

An example from my notes. (please pardon the personal feeling you get when reading them. I even repeat the example again at the end to make it a bit clearer. Not trying to be neat here...)


I didn't even bother reading it, basically looks like a rant. If you want to communicate a point, you should take the time to edit it, if it's worth saying it deserves to be said clearly.

You do realize the irony that it's because of the entertainment industry that you arose to whatever conclusion that you did?

[renaissancekid]

'''''

[2100]

Perspective is only the way our brains interpret converging light. We use it to create the illusion of depth. That's all that should concern you...

[renaissancekid]

........

[Seedling]

You can make a religion out of anything if you stare at it long enough.

[Cthogua]

Yeah, I really can't walk outside or do anything without blowing my brain to bits by considering multiple perspectives of our solar system/galaxy simulataneously, then contemplating how easy it is to fall prey to the intoxicating experience that is traditional perception.

I love this thread, thank you Renaisancekid. I know exactly what you mean in that quote above. It's thoughts like the one's you've described that keep me afloat amoungst the sea of everyday life. Sometimes the enormity and complexity of our universe is almost overwhleming...in a good way. Overwhelming in an awe inspiring, drown out the inane babble of the media, shrivel the squabbling nations of man kind of way. Unfortunatly we're trained from a pretty early age not to think about stuff like that. That it's "weird" or frightening. It threatens the supremecy of mankind to remember that we are a tiny speck amoungst a vast cosmic ocean. Then theres the other attitude of just dismissing it because of the "whoa man" hippy factor. Alot of people react to these kinds of ideas simply by filing them under "Hippy Nonsense" and move about their grey day.

I have a really neat book called "Supervision" that starts with atomic level electron miscroscope images, and goes all the way up to a simulated image of the local supercluster of galaxies. One of the things that I found the most interesting is reoccuring structures across varying scales...basically fractals. In one part of the book there is a picture or a mycelial network, the network fungus forms underground to transport nutrients and water, and in another part there is an image of a cluster of neurons, and the structures of the two networks are very similar....Well then I get to the end of the book and the simulated image of the supercluster and it looks just like a neural network in its formation. The idea of structural harmonics across VAST differences in scale is something I just can't stop thinking about. It gives rise to questions about the emergence of our conciousness from the structures and systems within our brain and the existence of larger, and smaller scale structures creating intelligence.

Also, just to add a thought...All the perspectives and experiences you have and can imagine are neurologically generated. Our experience of the "real world" is a multidimensional hologram created by the brain using interpreted stimulus from sensory organs and into which our sense of "self" is projected. I'm not arguing that a world doesn't exist outside of ourselves, but that the thing that we call "real" is just the tinest slice of it that our sensory organs are equiped to detect.

[Cthogua]

You can make a religion out of anything if you stare at it long enough.

and thus Seedling discovers the nature of the universe. Everything contains "the answer", because everything is part of the universe. You can make a "religion" by staring at anything long enough because eventually you will realize through that thing, that all things are connected.

Now I don't mean "make a religion" in like making a cult, getting followers, defining moralities, or even creating a structure by which the universe was created...I mean it in a more basic, unification with the whole, mystic sense, that I think is the real root of all religious impulse.

[armando]

we are a tiny speck amoungst a vast cosmic ocean.

I've never understood this kind of thinking. Why should big pieces of rock floating in a void be more important or interesting than the complex social interactions of humans.
"Unfortunatly we're trained from a pretty early age not to think about stuff like that." I don't agree with that either. Everyone is taught about the solar system, we all have seen or read sci-fi stories, it either captures someones imagination or it doesn't.

[renaissancekid]

...........

[Cthogua]

I've never understood this kind of thinking. Why should big pieces of rock floating in a void be more important or interesting than the complex social interactions of humans.
"Unfortunatly we're trained from a pretty early age not to think about stuff like that." I don't agree with that either. Everyone is taught about the solar system, we all have seen or read sci-fi stories, it either captures someones imagination or it doesn't.

Well, "that kind of thinking" acknowledges the fact that there are very interesting, complex things about those "big pieces of rock floating in a void." That in anything you can come across there is a near infinite amount of depth and complexity. More interesting/ More important isn't really the right interpretation since both of those are entirely contextual. The social interactions of humans happens at a much smaller scale, so it can be considered lesser from the standpoint of the formation of solar systems. However I don't want to piss off my fiancee by saying something insenative, so from my perspective social interaction can be deemed more important. Its not seeing these things as being relative, and contextually based that I think is the problem alot of mankind has. We tend to think of our human scale problems as the most important, and they are important to us. However not looking at larger scales makes you ignorant of potential dangers coming from events happening outside our scale. Being part of a system, in this case the earth, our actions can change the resulting nature of that system, but when we analyse it from a smaller scale, say a national standpoint, we see that it will cost jobs or lots of money to counteract that change, and for the sake of a politicians re-election it's decided to be ignored, villified, muzzled, or whatever. Thus the short view wins out over the long one because people are unable, or unwilling to see themselves as part of a larger system. Just knowing about the solar system or comets is only part of the way there. We still see ourselves as external to the systems around us, and that is in the training. Religion reinforces it, Commerical/materialism reinforces it, even our language denotes things as "man-made" versus natural, ignoring that fact that we cannot make anything without processes derived from the "natural" world. We are part of the natural world. Your thoughts, dreams, actions and body are part of the natural world.

[renaissancekid]

';;;;;;

[Serpian]

Dammit that Hubble Deep Field video just makes you go crazy! Best to watch some more numa-spoofs insted! ;)

I love those beautiful nebula pictures though. Now THAT'S art...

[sve]

IMHO. morality and standards of behavior in any society are essential for survival between individuals with different goals, priorities and interests.

I don't think their primary purpose was to give someone a feeling of superiority or rightfulness... I think it was about giving some sense of order, functionality to relationships between people and put a limit on individuals' interests. All those rules are not stupid, they had a common sense meaning and function and becasue of that they were not random...They might not always functional for some individual cases, but they supposed to work in a big scale, in general... I don't think they are relative... I think they are very much connected to circumstances in which they appeared and function.

This discussion about relativity of standards and morality reminded me Anton Chekhov's (Russian classic writer) little story... about the leading doctor, actually mostly administrator of hospital. a clinic who had all power to changed the life of people under him and patients of the hospital (it was mental sick patients for more drama), but he had sort of philosophy of his own: "Man who goes every day out of his room and knocks his forehead because of the low ceiling is suffering no less than some fellow crawling on his four through the wet narrow tunnel in mines... nothing can be done to make humanity happy... action doesn't matter"...
So he thought like that...until he lost his own mind due to certain circumstances and ended up being a new helpless patient of his own clinic with abusive nurses and barbaric methods of treating the patients.. so he became insane but not enough not to feel horror of this new life.
Morality is not relieve in my opinion in most of the cases...

[Gnosis]

Well then I get to the end of the book and the simulated image of the supercluster and it looks just like a neural network in its formation. The idea of structural harmonics across VAST differences in scale is something I just can't stop thinking about.

I've seen that comparison as well. It's mindblowing. But most people will never care about this stuff anyway. They seem too absorbed in the latest celebrity news and which trends to follow and what footwear to use.

I love the McKenna quote in your signature, by the way.

[armando]

renaissance: The perspectives aren't occurring simultaneously because they require a perceiver, there is no perspective without someone to see it. I take it that it's impossible for a blind person to expand there consciousness.
"comprised of nothing more than simple social interactions", that's hardly true. Both the universe and the human mind are infinitely complex, I don't understand either of them.

[renaissancekid]

The perspectives aren't
"comprised of nothing more than simple social interactions", that's hardly true. Both the universe and the human mind are infinitely complex, I don't understand either of them.

I agree with you. By labeling the perspectives of individuals without 'raised consciousnesses' as simple, I created a standard for what is 'simple' and what is 'complex'. This depends on some sort of cosmic standard for a 'correct' sort of thinking.

[Seedling]

Nintendo and all game companies: "REMAIN IN YOUR LITTLE ROOM PLAYING VIDEOGAMES. DO NOT RAISE YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS LEVEL HIGH ENOUGH SO THAT YOU BECOME UNINTERESTED IN OUR GAMES AND (resultingly) INTERESTED IN THE COSMOS. STAY WHERE YOU ARE LITTLE KIDS. WE NEED YOUR MONEY. COSMIC EXPLORATION? EF FREAKING THAT!! WAKING UP IN THE UNIVERSE? EF FREAKING' THAT!!!! TURN YOUR HEAD DOWN. TURN YOUR GAME ON AND PAY UP LITTLE BOYS AND GIRLS.

Sure! Of *course* this is what we strive for! Absolutely! It's not like we're just a bunch of artists who enjoy playing games so much that we want to make them for others! Heaven forbid that our players actually also be intelligent and aware and spiritual and interesting people! Nono, we must turn them all into drooling drones so that they will hand us more money!

Jesus christ on a stick.

[renaissancekid]

iiiiiiiii

[renaissancekid]

uuuuuuu

[Seedling]

You might be "on my side", but you are under the mistaken impression that game companies have ill intent. Yes, the goal of game companies is ultimately to make money, just like any other company; however in this industry I believe you are *less* likely to see people who are here for the sole purpose of sucking money out of a customer, because those sorts of leeches are attracted to big soulless money-making companies, while game companies A. often don't make that kind of money, and B. are full of people who are deeply and primarily passionate about making games.

[renaissancekid]

ddddddd

[Seedling]

Oh. You've lost me. Never mind.

[kool-ka-lang]

In my opinion, yes. I suppose the summary is this: Altruism and a raised consciousness can influence how you perceive our current direction as a species. This may lead to struggles about what the best course of action is for our earth community as a whole. This also may lead to internal struggles about the effects of your actions on future generations.This may also lead to frequent or infrequent bursts of pronounced altruism (like my Nintendo bit), a cry for moderation and balance, but simultaneously, a realization that 'balance' may not matter in the end.

Ok then. Well, then I'd like you to know, that even though I still play video games, and watch my favourite movies, I know that they aren't the only thing in the universe, and I don't consider myself a "slave" to nintendo and sony and micrsoft:

Thanks to you, I've enlarged my view of the world (though, I was already thinking about it way before:P), and I can appreciate your thoughts, and all the time you spent working on perspective and such. So yeah. I may not be incessantly talking about it, but it's in my head, no doubt about that.


(lol I'm a 16 year old kid trying to sound smart. >.>/and failing)

[0kelvin]

(lol I'm a 16 year old kid trying to sound smart. >.>/and failing)
Don't worry, there's a lot of that in this thread.


Eric

[Seedling]

Don't worry, there's a lot of that in this thread.


*chuckle*

[Carl Dobsky]

Wow!!!!!!!! I missed out on this! I guess I was too busy drawing.
As far as all the verbiage about (linear) perspective, I think you're right- if I read all that correctly. But there is a MUCH SIMPLER way to explain it. It's a bit confusing when you couch it in mysticism. But as far as the mysticism goes, don't bogart! Pass that S H I T!!!

[Cthogua]

This guy knows whats up

[renaissancekid]

:} I actually believe that.

[renaissancekid]

Thanks to you, I've enlarged my view of the world (though, I was already thinking about it way before:P), and I can appreciate your thoughts, and all the time you spent working on perspective and such. So yeah. I may not be incessantly talking about it, but it's in my head, no doubt about that.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm glad I helped a bit.

Cthogua, great posts. You too Gnosis.

[Puck]

It's good you're getting enjoyment (or what you like to call 'consciousness raising') from thinking about cosmology, but the truth to me is that many non-scientific facets of the world have just as much depth and interest. Cosmology is just so mind-blowing for you because it's new and you've never thought about it before. Many disciplines have this effect on people, including the obvious scientific ones like the elegant beauty of maths, evolution, relativity, quantum theory - but also less precise ones like religion, music, literature, art and ... computer games. :P

It's a bit intimidating to consider that you'll never be able to do more than scratch more than a few of these fields of knowledge because there is so much to learn and digest and appreciate - and then combine this with the fact that new insights and information is being created at a faster rate than is even possible to assimilate..... Which makes me think it is better to enjoy these intellectual stimulations in small doses and not lose appreciation of the ‘base’ pleasures like food, movies and sex (frankly, if you can’t raise your consciousness from a good root then you should give up now). :)

Relax, enjoy your science, but also enjoy your games and your art - because humans have a very special bias (some call it a capacity) for emotion and subjectivity, which, while it makes it more of a challenge to comprehend the 'true structure of our universe', also opens up a world of emotional enjoyment with as much depth, beauty and elegance of all the scientific truths put together. It's what humans are built for - losing touch with this aspect of experience would be much more of a sin than never having appreciated the full impact of the anthropic principle or light's wave-particle duality. Because frankly imho, ZELDA > Aubrey De Grey :P

[jadefoodog]

Nintendo and all game companies: "REMAIN IN YOUR LITTLE ROOM PLAYING VIDEOGAMES. DO NOT RAISE YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS LEVEL HIGH ENOUGH SO THAT YOU BECOME UNINTERESTED IN OUR GAMES AND (resultingly) INTERESTED IN THE COSMOS. STAY WHERE YOU ARE LITTLE KIDS. WE NEED YOUR MONEY. COSMIC EXPLORATION? EF FREAKING THAT!! WAKING UP IN THE UNIVERSE? EF FREAKING' THAT!!!! TURN YOUR HEAD DOWN. TURN YOUR GAME ON AND PAY UP LITTLE BOYS AND GIRLS.



Cosmologists, Aubrey De grey and other scientists: COME AND EXPLORE THE COSMOS WITH US. HELP US REVERSE AGING. HELP US DISCOVER LIFE ON OTHER PLANETS. HELP US FIND OTHER CIVILIZATIONS. HELP US PROTECT THE COMPLEX AND SENSITIVE STRUCTURES ON EARTH. WORRY ABOUT PLANETARY STEWARDSHIP. GIVE US YOUR TIME AND EFFORT. BE A SLAVE TO SCIENCE AND REALITY.

I always wonder though. How many of us have heard of a Wii, but not Aubrey De Grey? What's our future if the majority continue to prefer life on earth as opposed to 'life in the cosmos'? Does it matter? :\

Man you got issues. You simply cannot see that just because not everyone is completely obsessed with the stars and such that they are all playing video games all day. You try to use your little obsession as a means to give yourself a greater value than other people. Seriously "raising conscientiousness" just because you study astronomy does not mean you suddenly have some sort of demigod like buddist enlightenment. seriously your exactly like those mathematicians who swear everything in existence can be explained through math (maybe it can but it doesn't make them better than everyone else) seriously you talk about the entertainment industry and the people who watch tv and play video games like they are somehow less than you are because you have a different hobby. Thats simply is not how a person with enlightenment acts.

seriously congratulations you figured out the earth is round and space is big. that does not make you any more important than other people. not any one person can know everything we need people that know about the cosmos we need people that know biology we need people that know math and physics and we need people to draw and paint , we even need people to kill and to restrain people that are out of control.

out of all the people i have ever met some of the most enlightened people i know have been homeless people. and i have no ambition to aspire to that level.

if by chance you someday figure out all of existence do you think that would make you any better than the person with a 8th grade education that spend their extra time volunteering at homeless shelters. of a carpenter that helps his neighbor rebuild their porch that was falling apart due to dry rot. or the artist that paints a portrait of a daughter that was killed by a drunk driver for a griving mother in memorial for the lost loved one.

i think you need to re evaluate your reason for anting to learn more and stop useing it as a reason to put down other people some people choose to play computer games, some people choose to paint, some people choose to learn about the cosmos , but most people do alot of things. not one of these things can define them btu all together as a whole.

you wont find enlightenment in the stars.

[jadefoodog]

It's good you're getting enjoyment (or what you like to call 'consciousness raising') from thinking about cosmology, but the truth to me is that many non-scientific facets of the world have just as much depth and interest. Cosmology is just so mind-blowing for you because it's new and you've never thought about it before. Many disciplines have this effect on people, including the obvious scientific ones like the elegant beauty of maths, evolution, relativity, quantum theory - but also less precise ones like religion, music, literature, art and ... computer games. :P

It's a bit intimidating to consider that you'll never be able to do more than scratch more than a few of these fields of knowledge because there is so much to learn and digest and appreciate - and then combine this with the fact that new insights and information is being created at a faster rate than is even possible to assimilate..... Which makes me think it is better to enjoy these intellectual stimulations in small doses and not lose appreciation of the ‘base’ pleasures like food, movies and sex (frankly, if you can’t raise your consciousness from a good root then you should give up now). :)

Relax, enjoy your science, but also enjoy your games and your art - because humans have a very special bias (some call it a capacity) for emotion and subjectivity, which, while it makes it more of a challenge to comprehend the 'true structure of our universe', also opens up a world of emotional enjoyment with as much depth, beauty and elegance of all the scientific truths put together. It's what humans are built for - losing touch with this aspect of experience would be much more of a sin than never having appreciated the full impact of the anthropic principle or light's wave-particle duality. Because frankly imho, ZELDA > Aubrey De Grey :P

Amen brother puck i think that hits the nail on the head.

[jadefoodog]

You might be "on my side", but you are under the mistaken impression that game companies have ill intent. Yes, the goal of game companies is ultimately to make money, just like any other company; however in this industry I believe you are *less* likely to see people who are here for the sole purpose of sucking money out of a customer, because those sorts of leeches are attracted to big soulless money-making companies, while game companies A. often don't make that kind of money, and B. are full of people who are deeply and primarily passionate about making games.

i agree with the team that actually makes the game is more concerned about making a bad ass game and they work towards that end. but i doubt upper management has the same love for the consumer. lets use an example to demonstrate context

ok so on rainbow 6 vegas the team was hired to make a bad ass console game and they did it looks awesome and is fun to play online . the consumer minded team did a good job. then upper management comes along and says instead of making this game work good on computers lets just make a quick port and collect the earnings . therefore the PC multiplayer side of this game has ALREADY died in less than 3 or 4 moths time. while the console side is still strong.

but im sure on some level some people in both position "game creators" and "upper managment" who are consumer minded or greedy but they are overwhelmed by the general average

[renaissancekid]

\\\\\\\\\

[jadefoodog]

i wouldnt bet on it. the people causing the worst impact on the ecosystem know exactly what they are doing.

[jadefoodog]

Jade,

I tried to explain it as clearly as possible throughout my posts. Let me reiterate. I don't believe in a standard for morality in the cosmos. It's my particular interpretation of things at this point. Whatever you took as moralistic preaching (as though I were extolling on values for ethical living set forth at the 'beginning' of the cosmos) --- don't.

All of your examples: homeless individuals, soldiers, a neighborhood artist, kids who left school at 8th grade -- they are perfectly acceptable from my specific perspective. I don't feel better than a cockroach (or anything at that). My view on reality simply doesn't allow it.

Mine has been a struggle with the issue of perceived morality. As you said, we have people who are hurting in this world. There are significant ecological issues, drastic social inequalities, children falling behind in schools AND falling prey to the neighborhood sexual predator. Is this right or wrong in a cosmic sense? I have no idea. We perceive things as beneficial to our species, but does that mean we get a pat on the back for it when we die? Did it actually mean anything?

Please interpret my somewhat graphic internal struggles as nothing more than that -- struggles. I put myself back in place every time. Just take this as a chance to grow and explore our abilities as artists to affect the world in a perceivably significant way (If you're not interested in that -- that's fine too).

Sometimes I just feel that if we would take a break from all the gaming, entertaining, laughing, singing, dancing (etc) and look at our mess as a species for one single day, we'd get our act together and start living with some serious pride in the cosmos. For example, we might stop booting up our game machines and work together to 'boot up' Africa and other third world nations.

Again though, would this solve anything or would it just create more problems? Do we get a pat on the back (or a spanking) for it when we die? Depends on how you interpret reality.

in your cosmos reality none of this matters. eventually our sun will either burn out or supernova either way nullifying any attempt to save or destroy the earth.

[renaissancekid]

dddddddddd

[Puck]

renaissancekid, I imagine that this 'waking up' as you're calling it happens to a lot of intelligent people that enjoy the subtleties of scientific discovery. Most of the exciting concepts you're discovering are so exciting simply because they are so strange (stranger than we can suppose perhaps), but that doesn't make them more special than the everyday phenomena. I think you're assuming these ideas have an extra significance in our lives and that you are concentrating on them with an almost religious focus, where I would say they are quite insignificant when it comes to the existence of humans (which is one of the reasons that we are not built to easily grasp them - they serve no evolutionary purpose).

I think it was Sagan who wondered why people didn't embrace the sublime nature of science as the 'best' religion there could be - and it's very normal when one has their eyes opened so dramatically that they would want to shout it from the rooftops, similar to a born again theist wanting to show everybody the truth about God. Just don't imbue these discoveries with any sense of morality, because science isn't a force for good anymore than religion is a force for truth.

If tomorrow a team of scientists concluded with absolute certainty that we live in a multiverse, or that the speed of light is only a rule of thumb, or that the earth is actually a flat disc held on the back of 4 elephants who are riding on a giant space turtle - it wouldn't change how the majority of people live their lives. And for that I'm thankful; I like the diversity of personal paradigms that exist, even if some of them are really stupid.

It's almost like you're searching for a higher purpose. If a person is too smart to be religious, and they don't have the overriding morals to make helping people their life's work, then what better cause to dedicate oneself to than 'the truth of science'! Well good for you, we need people who have a good brain and a good imagination to work out the niggly details. But for me, I'd prefer to concentrate on getting better at art, starting a family, and finally finishing Resident Evil 4.