Males > Females in Art?

[Kirsten_Zirngibl]

(This is mostly about concept art but also fine art)
*Note: there are exceptions-- I’m only talking about trends.*

When I see something of artistic genius (my definition of it, anyway), the chance of it having been done by a male is probably 95%. It seems that anything that catches my eye in technique, mastery, and general creativity-- what really inspires me – was not done by a woman. And this is coming from a female.

Of course, it’s hard to talk about old masters and museum art because of male domination in society back in those days. But what about modern times? While there seems to be a female majority in the “lower levels” (local contests and such), the “higher levels” are a different story. (I just saw an article that females are underrepresented in the very top galleries--I can link it).

It seems like males tend to portray an elevated level of detail. And isn’t it scientifically proven that they have better spatial skills? And doesn’t drawing from one’s imagination (especially sci-fi buildings, landscapes, and such) require very elevated levels of those skills? And it also seems like men have a better mastery of motion, and use it more in their work.

Is this what scares women away from the field of concept art? I saw the statistic that only 6% (and less, if it’s a high position) of concept artists are female. That’s about as much male domination (or more) than engineering! (Just look at the featured artists on this site.) This is even more surprising given that about 60% of people attending art schools are female.

Be it fine art, concept art, and even “Magic: the gathering” cards (very beautiful, exceptional artwork), male is alpha.

Perhaps females simply aren’t very interested in fictional machines and creatures, and would rather draw birds, barns, mountains, children, as well as fuzzy still-lives of flowers and such. But this doesn’t explain

I will say one thing that seems to be going for females is that they seem to have a very good mastery of color. Well, I used to think that but now I’m not sure.

I was interested to see the “Chicks who draw chicks” thing. Perhaps I could prove myself wrong! However, when I saw it, it was, well… different. It didn’t really impress me like I hoped it would. There was no real innovation or action, and it seemed like they were more stylized and less detailed as a whole (not that stylization is necessarily a bad thing).

That brings me to creativity. Creativity has been used to describe the female way of thought as opposed to the male’s linear way. I don’t think this is true (at least when it comes to visual art). The body of female artwork just doesn’t seem to compare with that of a male’s.

There’s a lot of holes in what I’ve said, and again there are many exceptions.

I’m female and I’ve been very honest in what I said above-- and I’m a little frustrated.

I want to be one of the exceptions.



Is there any chance for the population of female artists to make a name for themselves in this kind of art? What do you think? Please be honest.

[Hyskoa]

http://www.agnesthurnauer.net/home.htm
Modern day artist with the same kind of worries.

Now theories as to why the female population lacks popularity...
hmmm, well, simplest reason would be, most classical artists (and by that I mean old ones) probably preferred male students because they had a similar mindset.

So women had to be pretty lucky to get the same kind of education, either they had a friend/father/neighbour/someone they knew that could provide everything necessairy to learn the basics and beyond.

Problem is though, now that women are more accepted, the art has also changed, so you go to galleries and see a lot of craptastic stuff that follows the mindset of the last 20 years because it sells well.

But if you look around the board, you'll see plenty of women trying to become good at art and some that already are, they just are a vocal minority because they seem to think the same as you that this is a boy's club.

Or you can be like me and just say "fuck it all, it's the intarweb, for all I know it's a 35 year old trucker with a family of 7, so gender doesn't matter anyway."

So the only way to break this pattern is to do fine art in a modern day knowing it won't pay off so people 500 years from now have an equal amount of female as male artists to look for.

Also, the color palette is easily explained through wikipedia



------------------------------
Red-green color blindness

Those with protanopia, deuteranopia, protanomaly, and deuteranomaly have difficulty with discriminating red and green hues.

Genetic red-green color blindness affects men much more often than women
------------------------------

And there you go.

[Seedling]

I want to be one of the exceptions.

So be an exception. Quit worrying and make more art.

I'm a professional game artist. I’m female. Sure, there aren’t a lot of women in this industry – but that’s pretty logical, as the games industry has in the past largely been games made by males for males. Nobody is stopping women from getting into the industry; they just haven’t been choosing to get into it. (And that’s a little detail I’ve personally been trying to change by lecturing to art students, males and females alike, about the reality of the games industry.)

I wrote an article on this subject a few months ago, if you’re interested:

http://www.womengamers.com/articles/girlingames.php

It looks like womengamers.com has got a few more game dev articles up, too. Go, read.

Also, any fluff on males being better at details or women being better at fluffy bunnies is bunk. Totally bogus.

[hito]

edited I apologize for being a stereotypical male on this occasion.

as something contributive.
there are some exceptionally well done, and detailed pieces in that calendar. It may simply be that it isn't what you expected. I think you would need to tell us your definitions of "artistic genius" and "creativity". By restricting yourself to the segment of flat imagery you may be missing out on the larger extent of art as a whole and causing yourself more grief than necessary.

yes there are biological differences between the male and female physiologies that tend to incline one sex towards certain types of tasks more than the other. The differences generally are agreed to not be large enough to cause insurmountable gaps in performance.

I think its simply a matter of time. Males had many centuries collectively, while females had comparatively much shorter time to rise to the fore. A century going by the start of the feminist movement. Maybe two if you include the handful of female students and artists in the renaissance and enlightenment period prior to 1900s.

[Seedling]

take a look at the girlie calendar.

Did you bother to actually read her post?

[Brendan N]

Very interesting topic!

*what follows is my own personal opinion - it's based on my personal experience, and no, I'm not trying to bash anyone - male or female*

I think we'll definitely see a change in this within the next few years where fine art and 'traditional' illustration is concerned. With concept art, especially in the game industry, we probably won't see such a type of swing since most females are, in my experience, not really concerned with sci-fi and fantasy and such. I do, however, see a far stronger emotional appeal in most women's work, and it's something the game and movie industry could do with.
Female artists, from what little I have seen, have a better feeling for character, personality and emotion than male artists. Male artists, on the other hand, display an affinity where technical skill and handling of media is concerned. This I base *purely* on my own observation, and holds absolutely no scientific validity. Again, there are many many many exceptions to all of these, and hardly a day goes by where a female artist does not have me inspired.

But as Seedling said, be an exception. It would be great to see more ladies get into this industry, and I suspect a great deal of fresh, intuitive and new ideas will come from the ladies in the future.


just my 2c, I'm rambling.

[Seedling]

Female artists, from what little I have seen, have a better feeling for character, personality and emotion than male artists. Male artists, on the other hand, display superior technical skill and handling of media.

This may be what you have observed, but it's hardly a scientific sampling, and it's the sort of statement that gets taken by the casual reader to have dangerously more significance than just one person's observation.

[Brendan N]

This may be what you have observed, but it's hardly a scientific sampling, and it's the sort of statement that gets taken by the casual reader to have dangerously more significance than just one person's observation.

I fully agree with you, I have to stress that this based purely on what (little) I have seen and it's definitely not supported by any kind of study, and right off the top of my head I can think of 4 big exception just on CA.

[Zilant]

My mother had three options in college.
Nurse, Teacher, or MRS degree.
This isn't meant to excuse the gender population inequalities in fields like this, but it does explain it a bit. It's a sociological thing, malleable and completely within your hands to change. Not a biological thing, set in stone, you have to worry about being the victem of.

And I tend to think of it this way, there aren't more revolutionary male concept artists because men as a whole are more creative - it's just that there's a helluva' lot more of them doing concept art right now. So the chances of having revolutionary thinkers is that much greater. I'm sure if you looked at it in terms of percentages, we'd be about the same.

And I wouldn't worry about any biological basis for gender superiority. Aside from circumstances rendering these minor advantages and disadvantages inconsequencial, which is a damn good arguement all on it's own.
Even if you want to take those findings about Sex Id from Secrets of the Sexes at face value, which I wouldn't, you use all aspects of art in order to make a picture. The precise angles men (supposidly) excel at, the red-orange hues women (supposidly) excel at, the movement differenciation women (supposidly) excel at, the ability to mentally rotate something in 3-d space that men (supposidly) excel at, it all gets squished together into this big amorphous clump we label Skill. There is no market for these traits individually. So both sexes have no choice but to take the good and the bad, and try and make the best of it. If women are in some way damned by their deficits, men are too.

[Mirana]

Male artists, on the other hand, display superior technical skill and handling of media. This I base *purely* on my own observation, and holds absolutely no scientific validity. And, on average and speaking from limited experience, male artists are more energetic and enthusiastic toward art.

Ditto what Seedling said. You are asking for a beating with that sort of sexism. Just because the artists you like on this one forum (which is dedicated to a market with --as previously observed by Seedling-- "games made by males for males") are men does not mean that men as a whole are superior to women in something as basic and important as "technical skill and ...media" Are you KIDDING me? That's like saying, "Girls can draw good expressions...and guys are better at everything else." HUH?

This is not to say I'm not offended by similar comments from Kirsten_Zirngibl. Talk about why women are socially drawn/forced to markets away from concept work, not general, sexist drivel about how chicks like drawing fuzzy still lifes and don't have creativity and mastery of motion. WTF. (And no, being female doesn't mean you get a free pass at being sexist towards your own gender. ;) )

[Kirsten_Zirngibl]

I thought this would be a topic of interest--

Seedling, I did read your article- very funny and well-written! I would thrive in that kind of work atmosphere.

It is a good point that if 90% of these artists are men, then 90% of the really "good" work would be male-- I also wonder, with maternal leave and all, if entry-level concept artists never go back after they have kids, which means less with many years of experience.

As for the comment about expression, I think what was meant was in gesture and style, not simply facial features.

Also, I think perhaps I just haven't seen enough art. I feel like I acted like some kind of critic, and I have seen a good amount of local shows, the occasional museum, and work from the internet (often from this site). I still think this probably isn't enough to build a good scope.


This is not to say I'm not offended by similar comments from Kirsten_Zirngibl. Talk about why women are socially drawn/forced to markets away from concept work, not general, sexist drivel about how chicks like drawing fuzzy still lifes and don't have creativity and mastery of motion. WTF. (And no, being female doesn't mean you get a free pass at being sexist towards your own gender. ;) )

Yeah, looking back on that, I realize I was being a little heavy on some of my points. I find from forum experience that sometimes it takes that to get a response, and I guess I sub-conciously did it.

I suppose one theory for that kind of subject material is that many mothers whose kids have left home finally have some time to paint- and 60-year-old grandmas just tend to like that type of thing. When I recall the the artist group I belong to, as well galleries/contests and the like, this is often the age and status of women who do that type of thing.

[Justin.]

"Nobody is stopping women from getting into the industry; they just haven’t been choosing to get into it."

My words exactly. I know some girls who play Gears of War (who are actually some of the most girlie girls in our school), God of War, Prince of Persia, Halo, etc.- Games aren't so much of the Nerdy thing they used to be. Now it's a much larger and more accesible market; This is what I think will bring more women to the industry in the coming decades. As stereotypes and expectations are slowly deteriorating, the sort of "buffer zone" between most young (impressionable) females and the video game industry is coming down. I specify video games because- while quite a few people love the art of Movies, I think even MORE people like video game art, because they know it exists. In film they don't think of the Story boards or set thumbnails, they just think camera.- Anyways, back on track. I think the young pre-teen girls who play these games and enjoy art will end up, like most of us here, drawing fan art, then wanting it to look more like it does in the game, then wanting to make our own characters, then wanting to get better at art period.

Then again, I'm just out of highschool so I know poop. :D

[idoru]

Man, no way guys have more attention to detail and girls have a better eye for color, at least all across the board and with no question. When I take my guy friends shopping (yes, shopping, for clothes), patterns catch me and colors catch them. They notice slight color variations way better than I do, but I always check the details.

We've just had less time, we'll catch up. Comics used to be a boys-only zone, and just in the last 20-odd years we ladies have been making leaps and bounds in catching up! The same was true of science ficiton/fantasy writing thirty, forty years ago, and just look now! Give us girls some time, we'll get there.

[Joshua Fountain]

This is my experience. Take it as it is:

In every art class I've taken (over high school and 3 colleges) there has been about a 90/10 percentage ratio of women/men. In many smaller classes I was often the only man. There does appear to be some surface differences between how a man works and how a woman works on a particular piece. Mostly just how they go about the process when not doing a particular process set and demanded by the course. Sometimes the results are similar, sometimes they are wildly different. It depends on the person, really. Men do seem to have an edge on women when it comes to dynamic spatial expression. I have noticed this over and over again. However, I have seen some solid exceptions on the female side. Creativity wise I haven't seen that much of a difference. Honestly, men and women seem to perform at the same levels when it comes to pure creativity in a piece. Men do seem to handle more technically detailed works in a more efficient way than women a majority (not even close to always) of the time. However, this is just probably due to the male/female differences in visual spatial potential that's inherent to us. I have seen plenty of women who do just as well if not better in these areas. They are just more rare, especially considering the male/female ratios I provided above. A good analogy would be that I am horrible with calculations and numbers (I think I might be slightly dyslexic, not sure). This doesn't mean I can't perform complex equations like someone who is naturally proficient at it... all it means is I have to work harder to achieve the same or better results. Nobody is limited by inherent genetic aptitude towards something or other; sometimes it just takes a bit of doing, that's all.

[Kirsten_Zirngibl]

Then again, I'm just out of highschool so I know poop. :D


I'm still not quite out... and don't know much either so that's why I posted this. Boy, it's a good feeling, isn't it?

[Zilant]

Bah,
Don't be emberassed.

One who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; one who does not ask a question remains a fool forever.

[Beelow]

Just to name a few females off the top of the dome, that are dope ass artists: Benita Winckler , Venessa Lemen, Ashley Woods, Julie Bell, Shelly Wan, Terese Nelsen, Linda Bergkvist , Natasha Roseli, Wendy Froud, Dana Daukshta, and Melanie Delon. Check them out! A couple post here, most of the name drops post at cgtalk on a regular basis. If you want inspirational females there you go. I can make the same claim about my people, that alot are not concept artists, but we are coming up. Mike T, JP Targete, Thomas Blackshear, LeSean Thomas are a few guys that I look up to. I hope to join them and widen the gap a bit and spread my knowledge and opportunity to my kinfolk so all the stereotypical bullshit can subside. It is what it though, not a lot of blacks in the industry doing big films like Star Wars especially in the concept art department. Same thing with women. I can't be mad at that, it's reality. I am going to try my to make that change though, and I hope the brothas here are up to it as well. Hope the do same thing too. Pride, call it whatever you want, I am going get mines, guaranteed! Just do it!!!

[Qitsune]

Kirsten, you have to ask Davi to let you in the Girly section of the forum(just PM him.)

[Brendan N]

Ditto what Seedling said. You are asking for a beating with that sort of sexism. Just because the artists you like on this one forum (which is dedicated to a market with --as previously observed by Seedling-- "games made by males for males") are men does not mean that men as a whole are superior to women in something as basic and important as "technical skill and ...media" Are you KIDDING me? That's like saying, "Girls can draw good expressions...and guys are better at everything else." HUH?

This is not to say I'm not offended by similar comments from Kirsten_Zirngibl. Talk about why women are socially drawn/forced to markets away from concept work, not general, sexist drivel about how chicks like drawing fuzzy still lifes and don't have creativity and mastery of motion. WTF. (And no, being female doesn't mean you get a free pass at being sexist towards your own gender. ;) )

girl, count to ten and read my post again before you accuse me of sexism. I stressed twice that it was based on what I have personally seen, and no not just on CA. Sexism is also a pretty powerful word - you're making it sound like I'm bashing female artists. If that's the idea you got, then I'm sorry - not the least what I intended. And no, my favourite artists are NOT limited to males.

That's like saying, "Girls can draw good expressions...and guys are better at everything else."

No. How'd you get that? I mean - FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN - female artists ON AVERAGE seem to have an greater affinity for emotion - that includes composition, colour use, movement - heck everything. It's also not limited to people - it includes landscapes, critters, abstracts - everything.

And "guys better at everything else"? technical skill and media does not denote 'everything else.' I mean - FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN - male artists ON AVERAGE are quicker to learn their tools and get their hands dirty. That's it. That also doesn't mean the ladies can't do it...

Right now I can think of many many exceptions to these sexist statements of mine.

That's my opinion, and you're more than welcome to try and change it - you'll find I'm fairly open minded, and that I'm secretly rooting for the ladies. I can see why my post got you started - and I'm going to edit it now to make it more politically correct - but please don't accuse me of sexism when I speak honestly from experience. As far as I can see that's all I did.

cheers

[emily g]

Kirsten, I gave you access to the girls' forum. You should see it at the top of the forums.

[Mirana]

Beelow: THIS Ashley Wood (http://ashleybambaland.blogspot.com/) is a man. ;) Unless you are speaking of someone else...please post linkage!

Brendan_G: Calling me "girl" is rude and not the best way to start a rebuttal. You want I should call you "boy"?

Racisim, sexisim, ageism...is based on ignorance. The fact that "in your experience" you've found that men trump women in "technical skill and handling of media [...] more energetic and enthusiastic toward art" means you are ignorant of an enomous population of artists. You don't like being called sexist? Then start educating yourself. You're right. It's a harsh word. You wouldn't bother listening if it weren't.

The things that you decided men were better at than woman make up like 80%+ of what I consider successful in entertainment art. That is where my "men are better at everything else" analogy came from.

[Beelow]

Oh damn my bad LOL! Thanx for letting me know.

Uhhh, Mirana I am going to have to say that Brendan N did not mean anything by it. Take his statement with a grain of salt. Most don't insulted because of a statement, and I feel that you are taking his statements way out of context. And, he also stresses that it is his opinion and he is taking it from what he sees here, as well as other sources. Don't assume that he does not go anywhere else, other forums and that he does not look into other artists works. Look at the ratio of men that have books on their works as opposed to women. I am still searching for a book that has a womans name on it. Well, there's Julie Bell, that's about it. Just think of all the popular artists here and look at who conceptart showcase here on the front page. We are discussing merely the ratio of men to women doing it. So don't hung up on it, cool it, prove that you can be bad ass too. Or Educate him. Show him some artists.

[Seedling]

Yup. . . Mirana, you are getting needlessly overheated. A statement of observation is a neutral thing. I myself this morning observed only green and blue cars on the road. That doesn’t mean that there are only green and blue cars in existence, or that green and blue cars are the norm, or that I have any particular beliefs about green and blue cars.

[Brendan N]

Calling me "girl" is rude and not the best way to start a rebuttal. You want I should call you "boy"?

How about you start reading my posts in a very calm very slow voice. I said "girl" as I would say "dude" or "man," but if you would like to call me "boy," that's fine by me.

You're right. It's a harsh word. You wouldn't bother listening if it weren't.

I think you're being unfair. You don't know me - don't assume I can't take a hint, and don't assume I will trivialize a polite correction to any ignorances I put forth. You'll find I'm more than willing to listen.

The fact that "in your experience" you've found that men trump women in "technical skill and handling of media [...] more energetic and enthusiastic toward art" means you are ignorant of an enomous population of artists. [...]Then start educating yourself.

You'll see I edited out the "energetic and enthusiastic" bit because it's based on too little. I am in fact still busy educating myself, and I'd be a lot better off if you would help out rather than point out how dumb I am.

The things that you decided men were better at than woman make up like 80%+ of what I consider successful in entertainment art. That is where my "men are better at everything else" analogy came from.

Fair enough. I consider 'getting a handle on your tools' to be around 30% of what's important.

If you're really that offended, tell me and I'll completely delete my posts. I don't mind keeping things to myself.

[Brendan N]

sorry beelow & seedling, didn't see your posts as I was typing...

[Mirana]

We are discussing merely the ratio of men to women doing it.

I've no problem with discussing the ratio. I had a problem with stating a general "men/women are better at..."

Yup. . . Mirana, you are getting needlessly overheated. A statement of observation is a neutral thing. I myself this morning observed only green and blue cars on the road. That doesn’t mean that there are only green and blue cars in existence, or that green and blue cars are the norm, or that I have any particular beliefs about green and blue cars.

Objecting to sexism is not "needless." I do not see a problem with disagreeing with Brendan's statements, either. That is what discussions are about.

I don't think your analogy is quite in the same ballpark as what I'm talking about. Brendan WAS saying (before he edited things) that men/women being better at such-n-such was "the norm" and that he had particular beliefs about who was better at what. Also, I'm not objecting to him stating how MANY male vs female (green/blue cars vs other colors) there are in "existance" of art, I'm objecting to his sweeping generalizations of talent. The analogy would be more like:

"Green cars display superior parts and handling, and on average go faster and are more exciting. I base this only on my observation. Blue cars have better interior."


How about you start reading my posts in a very calm very slow voice. I said "girl" as I would say "dude" or "man," but if you would like to call me "boy," that's fine by me.

I think you're being unfair. You don't know me - don't assume I can't take a hint, and don't assume I will trivialize a polite correction to any ignorances I put forth. You'll find I'm more than willing to listen.

You'll see I edited out the "energetic and enthusiastic" bit because it's based on too little. I am in fact still busy educating myself, and I'd be a lot better off if you would help out rather than point out how dumb I am.

Fair enough. I consider 'getting a handle on your tools' to be around 30% of what's important.

If you're really that offended, tell me and I'll completely delete my posts. I don't mind keeping things to myself.

Sorry..."girl/boy" has always been extremely derrogatory in any context beyond calling a kid under 12 where I'm from (unless you know someone personally). It's like saying the other person is a child, less experienced, or beneathe you. Plus, it's downright funny as I'm older than you. ;)

I do apologize for the "You wouldn't listen" comment and agree that it was out of line. At the time, I was thinking about how in general people ignore many things that are not dramatic and striking--case in point, I had much the same words for Kristen, but no one complained.

I wasn't pointing out "how dumb" you were. Ignorant is not the same as dumb.

I don't want you to delete your posts...I didn't want you to edit them either. I deal with rampant sexism/racisim/ageism every day that is overlooked because it's not a hot-button issue. I am also working on my ignorance in those areas, so it's important that we see where we came from. You are not the only one with these views...but others won't learn from them either if the original issues are gone.

[beejazz]

Uh... I don't know much about anything, but...

I've also read that males are more "visually oriented", but aren't women supposed to have better right-left brain connections? Shouldn't they technically be better at the conceptual stuff than men are?

Not that I put any stock at all in the idea of innate talent. You're good at art because you draw and draw and draw and draw and draw. Anyone sufficiently obsessive can do it.

Me, I see no absence of artistic women. I learned alot of what I know from my grandmother and her friends, from my mother, from female art teachers, etc. There have been men in my family with artistic talent, but... oddly they didn't teach me as much.

Not to mention my contemporaries in school... some of whom pwnt the hell out of me. I see it as utterly wasteful that said individuals pursued a career in fashion. We need more of these people painting and drawing and such.

[Brendan N]

Right I have no desire to pursue straw man arguments where I'm made out to be some air headed male chauvinist punk.

Sexism involves discrimination and unfair or abusive treatment of members of the opposite sex. It doesn't involve discussing the differences between men and women. As far as I can see, I haven't been unfair or abusive – I haven’t claimed either sex to be inferior at art in general. Also to say "men and women are absolutely equal at everything, no sex holds some advantage above another" is to ignore intrinsic and genetic differences between the sexes.

That is what discussions are about.
Yes, except you haven't been discussing it. You've been accusing me of sexism and ignorance left and right, and you haven't done anything to help or contribute.

I apologize for having called you ‘girl’ – you know I didn’t mean it derogatorily. Where I come from it has far more friendly connotations.

Like I said I have no desire to pursue or loose my temper over 'discussions' where I am - despite my good intentions - being made the bad guy.

cheers all

[tomwaits4noman]

interesting debate I for one would love to see more women in male dominated areas,

what I have noticed as this is just from my own observations is that there are equal or similar ratio of male and females in graphic art, fine art fields etc

but in other arts animation, computer games, comics its more men

I can't actually name a single female comic artist (penciller/inker) working on a mainstream title. IN fact you can find a few on the underground scene but mainstream I can only name Lynn Varley (colourist for 300, Dark knight strikes back)

I did a search on Wikipedia There is a larger list 3 creditted as artists.


It is interesting that you have male dominated sections of society how many female ones are there? scratching my head.

A lot of what we are talking about a niche industries involving tech design/ design, which I remember in school being seen as Male subjects so maybe it starts there.

[fionkell]

A lot of what we are talking about a niche industries involving tech design/ design, which I remember in school being seen as Male subjects so maybe it starts there.

10 points right there, sir.


I imagine it's really just the same as any other professional area (apart from nursing, hairdressing, etc. ...don't throw things at me, it's true and you know it). Considering how it was less than a century ago that my gender actually actively joined the workforce, in all areas, why should this one be any different? And it's also not very well-known, I mention "concept art" to anyone and all I get is a blank look and a "Is that like those weird sculptures in white rooms?"

Broaching the subject by sketching it with "sides" involved (male, female) is probably not the best way to go about this. Tempers flaring and all that. I hate how we keep looking for ways to differentiate gender differences rather than just celebrating what we have and how we are.
I don't care if my left index finger is substantially more sensitive than a man's or whatever because I'm a girl and blah-blah-blah.

It's about the originally male dominated areas being concerned for men, obviously 'cause there were no women and therefore no female perspectives to encompass. I don't think it's some "boys' club" mentality. Stuff that is done mostly by males is just obviously seen as only for males, and stuff done by females is just obviously seen as only for females. Getting past that superficial first glance is hard but you're rewarded if you do, tough as it may get for you. Ergo the more girls that cross into that 'male' occupation, the less 'male'-labelled it will be seen as.

Girls are pushed via advertising/fashion/etc to identify with 'girly' things - flowers, bright colours, fluffy soft things - from a very young age, so naturally I was drawing horses and daisies before I was drawing shark monsters and badly-constructed killbots (although I did have a penchant for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles). It just depends on how much of that 'tradition' you absorb and later on subscribe to. Young boys would be pushed more toward the technical things like toy cars/trucks, bikes, etc in turn and I guess that would carry over into their adulthood.
So...with that you could end up with your girls drawing the 'girly' things, emulating that soft colourful style, and your boys drawing the detailed hard-edged subjects.
Kids are very impressionable. If you're taught to be open to a wide range of subjects in your artistic will, then you're better off. Experimentation is key I guess :)

I hope I don't sound like I'm rehashing everything everyone's said already.

[bhanu]

Ashley Woods

Had to clarify this. Hes male, 30 something with a wife and two lads. I am fan so I couldnt resist.
ashley wood and comics go hand in hand.
there arent that many women in the comics field too , Japans an exception in this case.

[Molly]

man, this subject ALWAYS gets heated...:)
fight, fight, fight!

No, serious - Im not gona go into a 'girls draw this better, and boys do that better' argument, because its just personal choice, and I could run off a load things that each sex does better than the other.

Part of the problem, is that girls/females/women are not encouraged enough in the concept art field, than males, and the only thing we can do about it, is try much, much harder. Unfair I know, but, to be the best in any field requires commitment and hard work - from both sexes. There are PLENTY of extremely talented females on this site, they just dont post enough, THATS ALL. Maybe because they dont need their ego massaged as much as you males do!?! jokes jokes (NOT!) hahahaha :)

Mx

[Qitsune]

One thing I have noticed is many females seem to be more shy about their art and avoid attracting attention (broad generalization from being in the girly forum.) It might be the social stigma of:" you have to be perfectly dressed, made-up, hairstyled, manucured everytime you go out, you have to be nice, soft and feminine, etc" that leads many women to be ashamed of saying:" I did this, I'm proud it it, it's not perfect but I can take the crits."

[Seedling]

Brendan WAS saying (before he edited things) that men/women being better at such-n-such was "the norm" and that he had particular beliefs about who was better at what.

I read and replied to Brendan’s original post. I don’t like it when people make quick observations and write about them in a manner that makes them easy to misread as fact or belief. Which is what Brendan did. And I said so in my reply. But Brendan wasn’t being sexist by making such statements. *You* misread his statements of observation as being what he believed. That is exactly why I don’t like it when people are careless about the manner that they talk about observations. Neither do I like it when people are careless in their reading. It just snowballs into a fist-fight. Now, will you continue to let it snowball or will you let it go?

[joelhinxman]

so im of the school that from the start of it no 1 person on the planet is gona be better or has more potential the any other person, after that its all environment and determination. when i was a kid it seamed more that when a little boy was in trouble he couldnt watch tv or they took his video games. but when a little girl was in trouble she couldnt see here friends. it seamed that little girls focus as a child was more social. little boys focus was sometimes social (with sports and what not) but when not it was games and gagets. so as little boys with artistic talent developed they choose a path more in line with that of there playing of video games and watching action cartoons. where little girls art developed more of a social realm such as gallery arts. or you can look at it as little boys art designed monsters and nifty things that most often the art part of it is not seen. but little girls choose paths where they wantented there art to be more seen.(thats one way to look at i guess). when i was little, boys drew tanks and stuff fighting girls drew ponies pritty pictures of landscapes and stuff. and that seamed to just develop to concept design of tanks and stuff or gallery art of flowers and prittys stuff. also now that im thinking about it. alot of little boys liked comics and the idea of darwing comics was cool to them and so they had the push to design things like heros and monsters from early age.
but what i see today in kids is more of a mixed bag everyone plays video games boy or girl. games are more out there and kids learn about the idea of illustraion and conecept design alot sooner then i ever did. and theres all those video game art books out there that alot of people see the art of games and movies when befor they didnt. so i expect very soon there will be alot more women in the game industry then there is now.

and if you can make any sense out of all that then your one step ahead of me.

[Basil]

kirsten, we're all intimidated by other people's talent and abilities. i'm a guy and i know that other guys intimidate me in this field. i can't imagine how it is for a woman trying to break into a male-dominated career, but i suggest you look to your strengths rather than the stregths men might have over you. so stay tough and be determined to succeed with your art and you'll go far :)

and to sum up my experience,

1. girls rock.
2. they are better at everything.
3. i'm told they let us guys think we're better so not to hurt our ego.
4. i probably don't know anything.

[Beelow]

I wanted to bring up sports to add to what Qitsune stated about just the social idealism of what a female is suppose to be. Same thing applies in sports a woman is suppose to nice to each other and junk of that sort. Men are expected to be agressive and you see that especially Basketball. Men dunk on, pull their ballsack in each others face and taunt each other. That is the nature of men playing sports. And then there are the women. You see them play sports or them playing with men you won't see that same aggression. I am curious to know if it has anything the chemisty of our makeup. We've seen ,those of you who are in to sports, Spud Webb 5 ft 7in get off the ground and dunk a basketball into goal. And I've seen plenty of guys that are around that height elevate during my streetball days. Also, just observation watching basketball, games in mens basketball is much faster then watching the womens games. But, I can say that women that are professionals in basketball, can outshoot the guys. I see way more shots made in womens games. It is because there is little to no dunking when seeing women play. But, we can make the same assumptions and it may be ingraved in stone that women don't have that much of an interest in doing concept art/Illustration especially in SciFi Fantasy realm. Also that is why women have WNBA and men have NBA. Men dunk because of their genetic makeup and Women rarely are capable of dunking and with power, Dominique Wilkins, Shaq, Shawn Kemp come to mind. I can say that I am looking foward to seeing Terese Nelson, Shelly Wan(her work is sick!) in books of their own.

Bhanu- Thanx for punching me in the face again! Bastard!!!! XD

Molly- Thats fucked up molly, you didn't have to put us men out there like that. But, that is usually the case. Especially in basketball! But, I am going to speak for myself. XD

Seedling- I'm friggin done with that, people will think what they think. NO changing that.

BrendanN- Cool ass dude, thats all I have to say. You handled yourself well padiwan! Kidding...XD

Mirana-You want a hug? YOu want some cookies? You want me to cook you sumthin? Anything to make you forget the subject at hand. Someone hide this thread from her. LOL! Kidding! Keep that dome(head) Iced! XD

[nickmarshallvfx]

Someone PLEASE mention Marta Dahlig! She has some of the most perfect art ever!!! :D

Nick

[Flake]

Yeah, that dude is pretty good.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1985/tamara6ff0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6310/john4bigbx2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[sve]

Beeellooooowwww.... I need more guidance...in English... I want to know about this classification you use... Cool ass, real ass, big ass, silly ass, bad ass... I want them all... to be fluently used by me... what are good asses between those. Which ones I can offer as a compliment to a nice person? Hoping you will not let me down and hit me with a new knowledge...

[Jason Rainville]

One thing I have noticed is many females seem to be more shy about their art and avoid attracting attention (broad generalization from being in the girly forum.) It might be the social stigma of:" you have to be perfectly dressed, made-up, hairstyled, manucured everytime you go out, you have to be nice, soft and feminine, etc" that leads many women to be ashamed of saying:" I did this, I'm proud it it, it's not perfect but I can take the crits."

It's funny, because in a more professional "low art" type of environment (like this site, among other places) girls seem to be really reserved about their work and take less chances in promotion if they feel it isn't perfect, while every girl who I've seen in the fine arts will show of their work and be as proud as can be despite it looking.... not so hot.

I'm not going to make any generalized conclusions, this is just what I've experienced. It's a shame thoguh, it should be the other way around, as the ones who want a career in concept art (and put a lot of effort in to becoming better) should show off more, while the fine artists seem to need some hard work to catch up...

[Moai]

Just to name a few females off the top of the dome, that are dope ass artists: Benita Winckler , Venessa Lemen, Julie Bell, Shelly Wan, Terese Nelsen, Linda Bergkvist , Natasha Roseli, Wendy Froud, Dana Daukshta, and Melanie Delon.

Don't forget Terryl Whitlatch! She's one of the best creature designers out there, in my opinion, and one of my biggest influences. A good deal of the Star Wars prequels creature designs are hers.

[Mirana]

Not that I put any stock at all in the idea of innate talent. You're good at art because you draw and draw and draw and draw and draw. Anyone sufficiently obsessive can do it.

[...] I see it as utterly wasteful that said individuals pursued a career in fashion. We need more of these people painting and drawing and such.


Exactly right. If you're interested in it and put your heart into it, then you will do well.

OT: A fashion prof that I spent some time with was jealous that us kids in seqa art were much better at drafting than her fashion kids. She was determined to be harder on their construction of human bodies afterwards...so perhaps the artist(s)' talents you speak of are not as "wasted" as you think. ;)


Right I have no desire to pursue straw man arguments where I'm made out to be some air headed male chauvinist punk.

Sexism involves discrimination and unfair or abusive treatment of members of the opposite sex. It doesn't involve discussing the differences between men and women. As far as I can see, I haven't been unfair or abusive – I haven’t claimed either sex to be inferior at art in general. Also to say "men and women are absolutely equal at everything, no sex holds some advantage above another" is to ignore intrinsic and genetic differences between the sexes.

Yes, except you haven't been discussing it. You've been accusing me of sexism and ignorance left and right, and you haven't done anything to help or contribute. [...]

Like I said I have no desire to pursue or loose my temper over 'discussions' where I am - despite my good intentions - being made the bad guy.

I didn't say you were a "chauvinist." That is quite different.

Dude, I said sexism (http://m-w.com/dictionary/sexism) was based on ignorance. It can be abuse, but it is not always about it (in fact, it's the subtle "isms" that are overlooked and permitted to fester). You can absolutely be sexist if your discussion of men vs women has stereotypes. No, you did not say women are inferior "at art in general," you said they were in four specific, important aspects of art. You did not make comments about "genetic" differences in men and woman either.

I haven't discussed anything else because the core issue here --that your art is as good as you make it as a person-- has already been covered. Otherwise, I absolutely believe that pointing out sexist misconceptions is contributing! Remember, my first post was directed to comments made by you AND the OP. I am not trying to pick on you. I am not trying to make you "the bad guy." I geniunely feel that sexism is a problem run rampant and rarely discussed unless it is a major blowout. I mean, Kristen herself made stereotypical comments showing how social stigmas have effected her morale. That's a big issue!

interesting debate I for one would love to see more women in male dominated areas, [...]

I can't actually name a single female comic artist (penciller/inker) working on a mainstream title. IN fact you can find a few on the underground scene but mainstream I can only name Lynn Varley (colourist for 300, Dark knight strikes back)

How about reverse the tables? How often can a man easily get into a female dominated field without his sexuality being subjected to scrutiny? In many ways, woman are given the red carpet treatment when in the minority--just look at our "all girls forum." If a man thinks knitting is an awesome hobby, he can be sure to be the butt of every joke and "sexism" isn't something anyone would ever think of crying. That's unfair.

As far as comics go, you should be seeing a big change very soon. A couple of yrs ago you could only find about 5 women total in the Seqa Art dept at my school. Now the ratio is 50/50! Women have not looked at comics as a viable medium before. It was never really directed towards us in an effective way. The introduction of independant comics by women furthered it a little, but its really the huge female manga market that has totally turned the tables. Now if only we could get "every day" people in the west to appreciate the comic medium... (Lynn Varley is Frank's wife, btw. ;) )

(broad generalization from being in the girly forum.)

A little off-topic...but am I the only one who thinks the "girls only" forum is sexist? I understood the point of it for the calendar, but to keep it seems weird. Doesn't that serve to separate the community, instead of unite it? I mean...I know there are other "girl thunderdome"-ish things going down, but I can't even find out about them because they're a "secret."

Now, will you continue to let it snowball or will you let it go?

Uhh, just so everybody knows: I'm not --and have not been-- angry. I'm not some crazied femme-nazi. I am just as vocal about men's stereotypes. Everything else between us is covered in PM, yo.

[chaosrocks]

actually oddly enough the Girls forum is really quiet... most of us are all out here being a part of the wider community.

and here in my town, guys knit... and wear skirts on occassion , they really are far more comfortable on cool weather.

I can't help but say, My mother fought for equalrights so I wouldn't have to. I just assume that I have them and proceed from there. I truly believe that men and women are different, and thank the gods and goddesses for that
how boring would it be if we were the same? but the separation into catagories based on gender is totally foolish . "womena re beteer at this, men are better than that...." different people are better at different things. and again thank what ever for that.... rejoice in the differences, except that different peple will tackle different tasks in different ways.

for example when drawing an environment, I tend to wade in with big gouts of color and throw paint everywhere and straighten it out and clean it up later.. whereas some one else might start by carefully setting up perpsective and staraight lines only adding color at the end. Neither way is wrong. and it has nothing to do with what gender I am. and either solution might end up as an effective environment. One of the huge Joys of CA is seeing how many ywas there are to work and how many solutions people can come up with to a given problem.

Hey if the world at large is still fighting gender battles..that's their loss. We can be a still center of sanity that spreads. right?

Chaos Rocks

[idoru]

...dude, there's a girly forum? I want girly forum access...

I've noticed that guys get more of a push in the commercial arts direction than girls. My animation class has four girls in it, counting myself, and there are about 15 people in the class. Not bad, but not great either. I can only imagine how it is when you get into actually doing it professionally... But my art teachers always encourage the boys to go in a comic/commercial arts direction if that's what they're into, but I get these stern disapproving stares and get told to go paint some more still life-ish works. (I don't even paint!) It's weird and unfair, but. Just adding this observation.

[smellykitty]

seedling is female? where have I been? :O

[ironorchid]

Jan Duursema is one of the best comic artists out there right now.

http://www.janduursema.com/

her titles aren't indie or manga either.

[Seedling]

seedling is female? where have I been? :O

*giggle*

...dude, there's a girly forum? I want girly forum access...

Ping your local moderator for info, and/or paint a self-portrait. :-)


A little off-topic...but am I the only one who thinks the "girls only" forum is sexist? I understood the point of it for the calendar, but to keep it seems weird. Doesn't that serve to separate the community, instead of unite it?

Yeah, it’s kinda sexist. But it’s also a nice gesture that someone made to acknowledge the lack of females in the various industries represented here and to attempt to remedy the situation. It’s also boring in there. All the excitement happens out here.




Back to the topic, in this culture the biggest battle that I see left for women is the issue of maternity leave, particularly among graduate students in hard sciences. The highest levels of education coincide with a woman’s prime for having children, and our society is conditioned to think that maternity leave is a luxury rather than a necessity. Higher education, particularly on the track to a career as a college professor in the hard sciences, isn’t built around the biology of women. This causes grand disruption to the career plans of women in the hard sciences. I find this to be a much more pressing and physically real problem than that of people unintentionally harboring beliefs that women by nature aren’t up to the standard of men, or vice versa, in certain improvable areas.

I’m grateful that as an artist I’ll be able to practice my skills as a freelancer when it’s my turn. My sister, who is a nuclear engineer, won’t have that option.

[Qitsune]

She needs to move, here we have maternity leaves built in the law( paid for 1 year) and subventions for daycare.

[Zirngibism]

It's interesting seeing these different viewpoints. But I know one thing for sure- after seeing the sketchbooks (some showing incredible improvement) in a relatively short amount of time, I'm pretty convinced that no matter what differences there might be, that artists are a lot more flexible than I thought, and can accomodate and surpass any difference of initial skill in any area very rapidly.

That's a good thing to know no matter what aspect of art is being discussed.

(this is the original poster on a new account ;) )