Thoughts about painting and using color.

[Maxine Schacker]

There are two main approaches to painting. The first is direct painting. The second is indirect painting. Direct painting implies painting in one layer. I think this is a better way to begin, and i think the reasons will become clear to you as you read this.

Hawthorne (Hawthorne On Painting, Dover Press) speaks about seeing your subject as a mosaic of shapes of color, and then trying to exact match the colors in that mosaic. Buy the book! It's profound and inspiring - and is all about seeing. You can't paint it if you can't see it. learning to "see" with a painter's eye is what most books and teachers, for that matter, forget to stress. Painting in my view isn't about putting a color skin on black and white tonal study. Rather, it's about seeing color and letting the color do the job. The right colors in the right places will give you everything- form, texture, space, even personality. Exact matching of color, of course, includes how light or how dark a color is. But how do you learn to "see" the colors?

1)See the set- up as a mosaic.
2)Find a lightest light (there may be more than one),a darkest dark and a light shadow and just begin them - i.e. put down a dab. You need something to compare to.
3)Squint, scan, and compare. Always include the lightest light and the darkest dark, since you need to judge how light, how dark each color is.
4)keep squinting. Go to the center of every major shape, exact match it and put a dab in the center.

A big secret about seeing color is that you won't see a color if you just look at it! Everything in art seems to be about relating things to each other, so look away from the color you're trying to see and look at other colors in the set up, and then bring your eye back to the first color. When I paint I often have trouble seeing at first, but as you keep looking and scanning and comparing , you'll find that you begin to see things you hadn't noticed before.
Think of this first stage almost as meditation: you aren't painting. You're looking, judging, trying to see. Keep your color dabs very small. You want to be able to change things.

The next step is to find places where color changes intersect. You're looking for spots where two or three colors meet. Exact match them at their intersection. Again, restrain. When you stand back and take a look, if it seems to you that you're "on" you are ready to paint the painting.

Now, continue to think abstractly. See notes of color in relation (an exact quote from Hawthorne).Paint across your canvass. never paint "objects," paint color and always go beyond - die to get what's next to the color you just put down. Move around the canvass. Don't finish one whole area and then another...and remember to keep comparing. When you're painting in one place, you should be comparing to other parts of the canvass. "Keep everything true in relation." I think that's a quote from Hawthorne as well.


A very important factor in exact matching color, and any kind of painting for that matter, is understanding color temperature. Here is the secret: if your light source is cool, your lightest light will be cool and your darkest dark will be warm. If your light source is warm, the opposite will be true. In between, nature does a dance, alternating warm and cool. If you paint more then two warm, or more than two cool colors in a row , what you are painting will read as a pattern rather than as a form turning in space. Temperature shifts turn form in space. Temperature is not just about what you used to mix your color- its about perception. If you look at two colors next to each other, and you can't feel a temperature change and you are not describing a flat surface, it doesn't matter if you added a warm color to the mixture: your color choices won't work. You have to be able to "read" a temperature change. If you are painting from life, you haven't exact matched the color.

This small "t" truth, applies to the entire painting. Warm and cool shifts exist both in light, middle tone, and shadow areas of your painting. The warm cool shifts are what makes color dance and gives nature vitality.

Until you understand how to make shapes of color create the painting, you won't paint well. Once you understand, you will never see the same way again. There are many other areas , including indirect painting (painting in layers and using techniques such as glazing and scumbling) that you may want to investigate. My advice, however, is to explore direct painting first.

I hope this will answer some questions.

NOTE: After I entered this, I realized how much I DIDN'T include that I should have included! I will write an addendum as soon as I have some time. May the painting spirit be with you! Please post questions, additions, comments.

[panchosimpson]

thank you for this Maxine, especially the bit about color temperature, I'll be keeping a keen eye on this next time I paint!

[k4pka]

I would add that you do have to trust your eye when it comes to colour temperature. There is no hard and fast rule.

The warm light/cool shadows (and vice versa) holds up most of the time, however cool accents can and do occur in cool light (and vice versa). Some examples being when translucent objects are concerned, when sheer or reflective materials are present (cool accents appear at the point of turning of such fabrics) or when a complicated mass of different things are jumbled together (eg, in scrubby ground in landscapes), or when moisture is pervasive in the atmosphere (fog, rain etc).

Colour temperature then, is something we have to learn how to see, but more importantly, we have to trust what we see, as there are no rules.

You are however damn right about colour temperature being the key to making colour exciting. Introducing temperature changes into flat areas of colours (these being fairly slight, and you have to be strict about holding the same value) really do add tons to a work. Its hard to describe. It is literally like magic. I love playing with colour temperature. To really get it working, you have to be subtle. Illustrators use colour temp very graphically, using lots of extreme opposites. Whilst this is great for getting attention, its not so great at making non focal points in a painting interesting, but not in an overbearing way.

Color temperature is also the key to stopping you over modelling your forms. Keeping the number of values down in a picture is a very good thing, it promotes very strong images. The trick to doing this, is to use colour changes instead of value changes to keep the form turning. The result is what looks like a very strong picture. We admire many of the great masters pictures, and by knowing this, that you may realise the artist is using very very few tones, but modulating them expertly with value-held colour changes, and thus resulting in a very strong picture. Over modelling (that is, too many indiscriminate values) is the sin of many artist. It especially destroys a portrait.

(* Sargent being a prime example of strong modelling, using usually about 5 tones, and letting temperature do the rest. Mary Cassat another. Zhaoming Wu, a third.)

[Maxine Schacker]

I read your comments with interest and checked your web site. When are you posting your full color paintings?

[eminkey2003]

Here is the secret: if your light source is cool, your lightest light will be cool and your darkest dark will be warm. If your light source is warm, the opposite will be true.

"What I Learned Today at ConceptArt.org..." :^^:

[Dizon]

a nice read! thanks!

[HunterKiller_]

Informative post. Thank you. :yayca:

[k4pka]

I read your comments with interest and checked your web site. When are you posting your full color paintings?

If you click on "On Painting" below, you can see plenty of full colour works.

I guess you disagree with some of the things I said, hence the wanting to find proof that I know a (little) but about colour? Feel free to raise any points, I would be happy to listen.

Also, I have the pleasure of currently making twice weekly studies from the nude in the evenings, lit by an exceedingly warm tungsten bulb. This complements the work I do under natural daylight brilliantly, by offering the polar opposite of light temperature (same as when I paint outdoors in blazing sunshine).

A good example of a violation of the guide (I will call it a guide, as the warm/cool thing cannot be considered a rule with this many exceptions) is flesh. In a hot light, the shadows are indeed cooler (read, they have an amount of a cool colour in them, its all relative however, the colour on its own could be seen as warm one, but when compared to the flesh in the light, it is noticably cooler.) The darkest accents in flesh are warm, despite the warm light. I have yet to see a cool dark accent in naked flesh.

Another interesting place to see crazy temperature changes is through shallow sunlit water. No rule holds up there!

[Maxine Schacker]

I went back to your web site today, and don't ask me how, but I truly had missed the full color paintings. I had looked at the painted tonal studies of the nude model, and at your drawings. Now that I've looked at the full color studies, I would suggest trying to go back to very simple studies and exact matching of color. In the end it will make you stronger.In fact, I suggest that you get a copy of Hawthorne on Painting. He'll say it all better than I can. Be careful of facility. Work as simply as you can. There's alot to be learned from simple still life, and from really following the process I suggested above. Try letting the paint do all the work. In other words, keep your brush work as simple as possible. See the studies as exercises, not paintings.Whenever color doesn't "sit" properly in space, you know you're off. The best part of working from life is that the answer book is in front of you.

I'm happy to find people like you who still care about painting. For those individuals who want to use their skills as concept artists,however, its also important to learn how to work convincingly from imagination. They need a basis on which to make color choices. Of course working from life has to come first.

Understanding theory helps even in painting from life,especially when a passage just isn't working.

If you reread my original entry, you'll see that we really agree about more than we disagree about. I've stated that warm -cool usually alternates, not always. The "no more than two" cool or warm changes in a row rule, I'll stick by, but only if you want to create real space :the impressionists often settle for shallower space in exchange for other possibilities. Obviously there's much more to painting than what I've written about here, but people need to
begin somewhere. Exploring what I've set out in this thread will take some time. Once comfortable with how color creates illusion, we can proceed.

Learning complex things is all about intelligent, developmental process. Its too overwhelming to try to keep all the balls in the air at once, at least when one first begins juggling.

[Seedling]

Hey, another educational thread, awesome!

I just want to add one thing: color relationships make so much more sense and are so much more easy to reproduce, especially when working from imagination, when I understand exactly what the light is doing. A shadow on the snow is blue? That is because the brighter and yellower light of the sun has been removed, and all that remains is the blue glow of the clear sky. A face in shadow is lit softly from below in yellow? Sunlight reflected from a sidewalk. A teacher once gave me the advice that when working from imagination to “mentally ray-trace”; which is to say, make the same sorts of calculations about where light-rays bounce as a computer does when it renders a 3D model.

[stephen]

those are good thoughts maxine

[guilefine]

Hi maxine thank you for putting in all this effort into explaining your thoughts on painting and color.
First, right now i am painting directly on the canvas. I find and "draw" the major shapes with my brush. These shapes are big patches of lights, my middle value and darks. I then proceed to "finish" the painting in one layer.
Second, When you speak of indirect painting, is that like pretending i painted something but all i really did was hover over my floor and let the paint ooze out of the tube onto the floor. Ok joke, i joke i joke.

Seriously i really am bad at jokes and color temprature and color matching.

I can relate to your color mosaic alot because this is how i start to think when i lie down, stand or sit down to paint. I find three or four major colors, then i proceed to relate these colors to each other. I don't really find all these colors all over the canvas. Instead of dabs i paint the whole shape or shapes as the color im seeing. Then i make smaller shapes of color when the big shapes are correct.
I don't understand what you mean by places where color changes intersect? Are you talking about physically putting one dab of color down then putting a differnt color dab right next to it so the two colors are touching or, having allready three diferent colors meeting at one point and they change into a color differnt from the original three? I am so confused.

Okay color temperature, im okay at it but not as good as i want to be. So not only do i have to model the surface change with tones but i also need to communicate with paint a change from the warmest sunny side to the "dark side" thats cold and where its hard to make out complete shapes because its in shadow. If i have a cube and you can only see two sides, one side is yellow and the other is blue and they are of the same saturation, is this a temp change?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e38/joefeinsilver/Untitled-1.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e38/joefeinsilver/Untitled-3.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e38/joefeinsilver/Untitled-2.jpg

These are the simplest graphic examples i could come up with.

Can you make a temp change by adding black to the color?

I also find that finding color changes in landscape painting is based on the idividual painting the landscape only because the color changes so fast.

In order to model form with more color temp changes don't you have to pay attention to much more value changes because your using many colors that require there own range of value? I think im just confused so i will try this and stop trining to figure this out infront of my computer screen instead of actually painting, damn i wannted to draw.Oh god I hope im some what clear with my questions and concerns. thanks again for your time.

[k4pka]

Hang on hang on there matey.

Colour temperature changes are used instead of value changes, that is how they help model the form, without filling it full of indiscriminant values.

You will be making a temperature change everytime you add a new colour to a mix. Any two different colours are going to be different temperatures, according to the percieved whole.

And yes the two examples are indeed temperature changes.

[Maxine Schacker]

Guilefine, 1)I suggest that you slow down. Do some studies. Accept the fact that you will struggle and it may take hours to exact match a few colors. The reason I suggest that you go to the center of the shape and just begin it, is because you may later see that you didn't quite "see." If you let yourself stay in the thinking stage for awhile, you'll learn a lot.
2) The thing is that you can't "see" a color by looking at it - you will only "see" it by scanning and comparing, and good artists do this constantly as they paint. They are aware of the whole painting and the relationship between all the color touches.
3) Once you feel comfortable with your "thoughts" you will look for places where two three color shapes meet, and paint the juncture.Resist the urge to paint whole shapes. You still want to be able to make changes. YES- I am talking about putting down dabs of paint next to each other. Only when you feel you've exact matched enough of these junctures, will you actually paint the painting.
4) Continue to think abstractly. Paint across the canvass. Paint color notes not objects.
5) Move to all parts of the painting - try not to finish one area and then another. Bring them all up, still scanning and comparing, together.

I suggest that you omit black for awhile. However, I disagree with K4Pka. Exact matching includes how dark, how light. There will be no "indiscriminate value changes" if you are exact matching.If you use Prussian Blue, you'll be able to mix something close to black by adding cad red dark and/or aliz. crimson. I'm trying to remember if I gave you a suggested palette.... I hope I remembered to tell you to squint. It simplifies the changes. Don't paint anything you can't see squinting.
This isn't the be-all or end-all, but its a solid way to begin.

This is the first time I've ever tried to teach this all in WORDS! It's hard.Don't forget you'll need and warm and cool of the primary colors plus white. You may want several blues, several reds and a cool and warm yellow, plus yellow
ochre. I suggest starting without black or other earth colors, although later you'll want to explore these colors.

Please let me know how its going.

[Maxine Schacker]

About temperature change: use your eye. You are looking for a perceptible change- that one color feels cool, and the next feels warmer.For example, if you've added some cad red light to a cool color, but the two still feel cool, add a touch more of the cad red light to the one you want warmer.. Its not what you used- its how it feels on the canvass. Most color in nature is "broken" color.That means it's a mixture of red , yellow and blue. The question is which red, which yellow, which blue...and how much of each. A pinpoint of any cadmium will change the color, so only add a pinpoint at a time. The major way we can make a color lighter is by adding white.

The only way to learn all this is to do it! Do small paintings of one simple object on a piece of drapery (no fold, or a simple fold).

K4PKA- I still feel you would profit by trying this.

[chaosrocks]

READ HAWTHORNE!!!!!
I love the whole discussioon about how different peple ses and deal with these problems
post ur paintings too? a picture is worth 1000 wordz
chaos

[Maxine Schacker]

I intend to learn how to do this. You've probably figured out already that I'm from another generation...and very busy...but motivated to work on this over the summer. I find all of you - your real interest and passion- energizing and inspiring.

[guilefine]

Okay i will slow down and let you know how things go. thanks k4pkan & maxine

[Seedling]

This is the first time I've ever tried to teach this all in WORDS! It's hard.

You're doing great! :-)

[k4pka]

However, I disagree with K4Pka. Exact matching includes how dark, how light. There will be no "indiscriminate value changes" if you are exact matching.

I agree that exact matching includes how dark or light the colour is (However I also believe that exact matching is both impossible and frivolous). So often I hear people say they have the colour right, but it is too dark/light. They don't realise that this is not possible. You cannot have a darker/lighter version of (for example) a yellow, because the darker/lighter colour will infact be a different colour.

HOWEVER, nature itself has all the values in the world to work with. We with oil paints do not. As such, it is a far better idea to limit the number of different values we use (to stop "overmodelling" and the adding of extraneous, indiscriminant values), and substitute colour changes instead. (We have access to many more colours than we do values) Pigments cannot match nature, (and thus we can never colour match exactly either) and nor should they try.


The major way we can make a color lighter is by adding white.

It is worth saying that this also cools the colour. In situations in hot light, we have to raise the value of a colour whilst simultaneously keeping the warmth. This is difficult to do with white alone, and so we have to introduce warm colours to the mix (Usually the cadmiums, they help enormously with the age old oil painting problem of raising the value of a warm colour, without losing said warmth)


K4PKA- I still feel you would profit by trying this.

I plan to try it! What sort of fabric would you recommend?

[sho-nuff]

Just wondering if this method of exact color matching applies to painting from your imagination? And if not then can it be adjusted somehow so that it still applies?

[briggsy@ashtons]

So often I hear people say they have the colour right, but it is too dark/light. They don't realise that this is not possible. You cannot have a darker/lighter version of (for example) a yellow, because the darker/lighter colour will infact be a different colour.

What they presumably meant is that they had the hue right, but it the wrong value. Do you have an objection to using hue, chroma and value as a framework for thinking about colour relationships?

[k4pka]

^ In real life, yes.

In photoshop, I understand about those three ideas for thinking of colour. In real life however, this doesn't work, since anything we add to a mixture changes the colour. We don't have sliders to make our colours from!

A colour (when mixing with pigments) cannot be correct if the value (or anyone other of those three concepts) is wrong. If the value is wrong, you have to add something to the mix to make the value right again. Adding this new colour to the mix (whatever it may be) will change the colour of the mixture. The idea of hue, in painting in real life, is a harmful theory to attempt to work by. People find it very difficult when faced with a blue t-shirt (for example) and having the idea that they need to mix three versions of that same blue, a dark a middle and a light. It is a daunting idea (since it is impossible) and thus much frustration is saved on their part by teaching them that in reality, they are three different blues.

[briggsy@ashtons]

Thanks for the clear explanation k4pka, I understand where you're coming from now. But more difficult does not equal impossible.

[Maxine Schacker]

You mention wanting to try a different palette. I suggest using primary colors, at least one warm and one cool of each, plus ochre. The colors we start students with are: ultrmarine blue, prussian (or pthalo) blue, cobalt blue and cereulean blue, cad red light, medium and dark, alizarin crimson, cad yellow light and medium(be sure the medium is warm- some brands make it too cool), yellow ochre, and white. Titanium white is a good white but can make color look chalky.

(I just copied this from another post I made)

[Maxine Schacker]

You are creating problems where none exist. Exact matching of color includes "how dark, how light." When you get the color, you get the value as well!

K4pka, if the color on your website is accurate, your color is looking a bit washed out. Also, you have to differentiate between wanting to create deep space, or playing the game as some impressionists did, and creating shallower space as trade off for more color possibilities, which is what I believe your goal is. In this thread I am simply trying to help people begin! I think it's a mistake to start overwhelming them. Just let them explore what color can do.

[k4pka]

...to mix three versions of that same blue, a dark a middle and a light. It is a daunting idea (since it is impossible)...



Thanks for the clear explanation k4pka, I understand where you're coming from now. But more difficult does not equal impossible.


When I say impossible here, I mean that as absolute. There is no such thing as the same blue (or red or whatever) but lighter/darker. As such, mixing the same blue but lighter isn't difficult, it is impossible. They are entirely different colours. Sure, they are both in the blue family, but they are very seperate and distinct colours.

Maxine, the colours of my pictures look accurate on my monitor, since I tweak them in photoshop to do so, however I am aware of the pitfalls of that, since they look different on different monitors. As such, I have no idea if the colour you are seeing on my website is accurate.

However, if you can help me, I would be glad to listen. How do you mean washed out? (because as it is, knowing they are washed out doesn't help me, since I don't know what makes something washed out, and thus can't change it)

I prefer to create deep space, by using the full gamut of values. My initial block-in always includes a darkest dark and lightest light set in stone, to allow me to match the gamut of values I see.

The impressionists had the shallower picture space due to them raising the value of their shadows, to get more colour in there. This is something I do not do, I sacrifice some of the colour in the shadow, in order to get it as dark in value as it needs to be.


Titanium white is a good white but can make color look chalky.


Im sorry to have to disagree again, but this is absurd. Chalky colour is caused by incorrect temperature colour. Using too cool colours, where they ought to be warmer is what causes that "chalky" look, not what white you use.

Oh, and I agree about the overwhelming thing!

[chaosrocks]

Maxine... from my experience thats too many colors .... sensory over load. I had to try very few and learn by experimaentation what I needed beyond the basic 4 I started with. (Ultramarine, cadred, yellow ochre and white) I found I needed also, Alizarine crimson, and a pretty neutral yellow (i use winsor yellow) a really dark brown and ocassionally cerulean or greener blue. This is pretty much what I still use
as for being from another generation.. Ithink you'd be amazed at how broadly we span the ages :P

chaos

[dose]

Chaos- I believe the palette you're talking about is a good basic palette to transition from value painting to color painting, but I think Maxine is talking about a basic palette for really exploring color.

A simpler version I learned was this:

Cool Yellow - Cad Yellow Lemon
Warm Yellow - Cad Yellow Light or Medium (depends on the brand, but should definitely look "oranger" than the cool yellow)
Cool Red - Alizarin Crimson
Warm Red - Cad Red Light or Medium (again, depending on brand - sometimes light is too orange and medium is not intense enough)
Cool Blue - Cobalt Blue
Warm Blue - Ultramarine
White - Zinc or Titanium. Zinc is semi-transparent, and thus makes it easier to not bleach out your colors.

You may need a few other colors depending on subject matter, and pretty much every artist I know sticks yellow ochre on there as well. It's a good basic palette but from there I think every artist grows their own palette. I can't live without cobalt turquoise and cad yellow deep, and I usually have a green on there as well.

Note that this type of palette is best suited to alla prima painting. It's not so conducive to glazing/indirect techniques.

[briggsy@ashtons]

When I say impossible here, I mean that as absolute. There is no such thing as the same blue (or red or whatever) but lighter/darker. As such, mixing the same blue but lighter isn't difficult, it is impossible. They are entirely different colours. Sure, they are both in the blue family, but they are very seperate and distinct colours.

I don't quite follow you k4pka. The princiciple of classifying colours according to the three dimensions of hue, chroma and value means that for every hue there are many colours, differing in chroma and value. You've conceded that you understand how this works in Photoshop, so you know that there IS such a thing as two colours of the same HUE but lighter/darker. So why is this an absolute impossibility in paint, not just a practical difficulty to mix them?

Sorry Maxine. My original question was meant to be a quick clarification, not a long (or circular?) detour.

[Seedling]

Colors on a computer are mathematically perfect. Colors in pigment aren’t. The same rules of hue, chroma and value apply to pigment as do to digital color. The difference is that with pigments you have to know a bit of trickery to get precisely the hue, chroma and value that you are after. In other words, in order to get a transition from a dark saturated red to white, some other pigment may need to be added somewhere in that transition to make up for the imperfect nature of particles of stuff suspended in a binder.

[briggsy@ashtons]

Exactly

[Maxine Schacker]

About white: Flake white (lead white) is a warm white. Titanium white does tend to make colors look chalky. Zinc white is a cool and more transparent white. Some brands make a combo Titanium/Zinc.

Nature is, indeed, greater than paint.(I'm not shouting - just trying to make sure everyone notes this) AND I DID FORGET THIS IMPORTANT POINT- THE ONE PLACE WE "CHEAT" IS THE HIGHLIGHT AND THE NEXT LIGHTEST LIGHT- WE ARE FORCED TO MAKE THESE CLOSER TO TO EACH OTHER IN VALUE THAN THEY REALLY ARE, BECAUSE NATURE DOES INDEED HAVE A GREATER RANGE THAN PAINT. For this reason we paint what we compare in every situation but the distance between the highlight and next lightest light. We say we paint what we see, but by seeing we mean scanning and comparing. We reference the lightest light, and the darkest dark. We look back to the color we are trying to match. We have to ask ourselves how much distance we need to get to show how much lighter the color is than the darkest dark...and we can only make it lighter by adding white.

Briggsy, have a heart. For the sake of those beginning to paint its easiest to simply think about looking at the set-up as if it IS the painting. In this case, exact matching means trying to mix the colors you see...as exactly as you can ( and you will find you CAN get very, very close)...and...once again- how light, how dark is part of exact matching.

Working this way means you spend lots of time looking, and that puts lots of info into your primary computer...your brain.

[briggsy@ashtons]

Briggsy, have a heart.

Mea culpa. I have been merciless in my pursuit of clarity.

I don't see any connection between the rest of that paragraph and its opening sentence - I completely support the excellent approach to painting you describe. My only quibble is that I would have said that whole point of that approach is that you do NOT try to exactly match the colours you see in isolation - the mistake that every beginner makes - you are "matching", or strictly speaking finding an equivalent for, the colour RELATIONSHIPS that you see. You are finding the exact equivalent for each colour that you see in the context of all the other colours in your picture. But I can see from the rest of your post that we do not differ at all on this.

I'm at it again, aren't I?

[Elwell]

I'm at it again, aren't I?
Yes, thank god.

[sho-nuff]

so does anyone wanna take a crack at my question?

[k4pka]

Sho-nuff:

What do you have to exactly colour match against if you are working from imagination?

Brigsy:

In photoshop, colour is described as best it can be via mathmatics. However, in real life, they don't work like that. What we call a colour, as Maxine describes, encompasses all three, hue chroma and value. As such, if any one of those is wrong, then the colour itself is wrong.

You can have the wrong colour that has the right value, but not the right colour that has the wrong value. (You can switch value for hue or chroma and the sentence is still true) In painting, you have to see that all colours are different. Local colour means nothing. Local colour is what gives rise to this daft idea that something is the "same" colour but lighter. It cannot be. Lightening it (by whatever means, adding white, adding a lighter valued other colour, whatever) changes the colour. Not seeing things as the discrete and different colour patches they are is not helpful in painting.

Incidentally, your second post, I agree with fully. I disagree with Maxine that we are trying to exactly match the colour in nature, rather we are trying to match the colour relationships we see in nature. We have not the means to match natures colour exactly (no matter what anyone says*) and so have to work as well as possible with what we do have. You are bang on about finding equivalents.

*Mainly because things we see are sources of light, be that primary (eg the sun, a light bulb etc) or secondary (eg everything else that is reflecting light at us, hence us being able to see it.) We are painting with pigments, not light, and thus cannot hope to duplicate what we see exactly.

Maxine:

Titanium white does not make colours look chalky. The people who use the white are making colours look chalky, being as they tend to make them too cool (IE, over using the white). To say that it is the whites fault is absurd! Its like blaming my brushes for painting an eye crooekd in a portrait.

And we don't cheat in one place, we cheat across the board. We are mimicking a three dimensional world, in two dimensions with coloured mud. Its not just the highlights we have to sacrifice on.

"Only make it lighter by adding white"? What about any other of the lighter colours (naples yellow, yellow ochre pale, cad yellow, cad red etc etc) In hot light, we have to make colours lighter using other lighter values, because adding white cools the colour too much.

[Maxine Schacker]

Western representational art is magic- we create the illiusion of a 3D world on a 2D surface. To do this, we mimic what the eye sees. Part of the "language" we need to learn has to do with conceiving 3 dimensional forms, with the aid of perspective , feeling the form in space, being able to translate into a planar structure...all of this so that we have conviction about how the planes of the form are situated in space. When we throw a light on something, given that we have no more than 2 sources of light and only one of them is major, the resulting "tonal" pattern will communicate the form.

When working from life,you need to think about the direction of the major light source: all planes facing that direction will be light. Degrees of light, middle tone and shadow will depend on the plane's orientation in space and how far it is from the light source- with the exception of reflected light (the second and lower key light source).Cast shadows, of course are another matter.

Now, the eye sees each thing in isolation. As artists we have to teach ourselves to scan and compare, and see everything "in relation." You need to know where your lightest light is, where your darkest dark is and you need to squint, scan and decide how light or how dark each shape of value is.

When doing something like hair, forget that its hair and think of the form of the skull : for every major plane change, there will be a value change.

When doing the shirt, you needed to feel the plane change from the top of the shoulders to the front of the torso. If you give me the same value, you're telling me its all the same plane.

This is very heard to communicate this way.... We usually teach it through a series of drawing, painting and perspective courses.


This post is from another thread- but I thought I'd put it here for those of you who are now overwhelmed by this thread. You can start by simply trying to translate what you see into shapes of value, as indicated above. In fact, tonal drawing is a very good way to get a feeling for how we create the illusion of a 3D world on a 2D surface. I hope it helps.

[Maxine Schacker]

Sho-nuff, you need to understand tonal pattern , warm/cool relationships, and how to mix colors in order to work from imagination.

[briggsy@ashtons]

Only one horse in that avatar, but sometimes it sure feels like the cavalry has arrived. Thanks Elwell.

Good question sho-nuff. Creating fully convincing effects of light from the imagination requires a different approach. You have no choice but to go beyond artistic rules of thumb and understand some of the facts of physics and psychophysics. And you need to frame your thinking in terms of the parameters of physics and psychophysics - hue, lightness, brightness, chroma and saturation - not the vaguer artistic terminology of warm and cool etc. I personally prefer to think in those scientific terms even with a subject in front of me, but in any case with imaginary subjects there is just no contest. If you want to pursue this further, I think one of the best places in the world to begin is right here - Idiot Apathy's Peer Project V. 2.
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=76955

k4pka the first part of your reply just doesn't make sense to me, but thanks for taking my heartless questioning in good spirit. I'm glad we agree on some things.

[panchosimpson]

hello there, seems like things are getting a little heated in here...maybe its a rise in color temperature?:)..ok bad pun...anyway, i came across this link which may be helpful...http://www.nasonart.com/writing/bongartlessons.html it's a compilation of sergei bongart's notes and precepts....it doesnt discuss matters as deeply as they're being explored here, but on the bright side, my tiny 17 yr old brain can being to grasp it. keep up this thread guys, it's very informative!

[Maxine Schacker]

Pancho, I intended for this to be a thread for beginners. I didn't want to overwhelm anyone. Sometimes its best to start, do some paintings, and then, with some experience under your belt, proceed. Bongart seems to be suggesting a very similar approach.

Briggsy, if you read my posts carefully I'm constantly talking about scanning and comparing. I go so far as to say that you can't "see" a color simply by looking at it. You have to compare it to lightest light, darkest dark, and anything else in the set up that may help.

In fact, we really paint what we compare- I may have said that already. To learn to see color we have to remember that its not the color of the object, but its appearance under particular circumstances, in relation to other objects and drapery, affected by a light source...that's what makes it hard for people. They want to paint the "truth" of the local color, when they need to paint the "truth" of the appearance of, probably, several colors that are now apparent on the piece of cloth, or object. Its hard for the new artist to have the guts (given that we scan and compare) to put down what he/she actually "sees." Students need to learn to see first. They need to learn the miracle, as Hawthorne says, of how color spots come together. One thing at a time. It will take a bit of painting until they start to really get the hang of this.

I didn't mean to offend you. I just wanted to keep it as simple as possible at first. Of course, one doesn't have to paint the colors one sees at all. This is just a way to begin. There are so many choices, so much to explore.

Before I was computer literate at all, former painting students had told me that this way of learning had given them an edge in computer work. I'm still not a computer person, but I've seen how this approach has paid off for our students.

By the way, I think there's a thread under education from students in Australia looking for a place to study. I'm sure they'd appreciate hearing from you.

[chaosrocks]

personally I think theres too many words in here.... and not enuff pictures
:P

perhaps if we painted more and talked about less.

I have the same trouble with anatomy
I read the books..but somehow..... idoesn't gel till I do it
wrong
again

chaos

[Maxine Schacker]

Looking at the pictures won't be as good as picking up the brush and painting. Try setting up a simple still life, and simply follow the directions. Then it will begin to make sense.

[Idiot Apathy]

Mmm, knowledge :)
Not entirely sure what methods we are comparing above here, but realize that an alternate viewpoint/method can unlock pieces of the puzzle you may not have seen in your normal viewpoint/method. Better is so relative... so it's better (;)) to experiment with many viewpoints and methods.

[briggsy@ashtons]

Maxine, sorry if I somehow failed to make it clear that I actually had read your posts carefully, and realized that the whole essence of your approach was to represent colour relationships rather than copy colours in isolation. I did try to be explicit that my "quibble" was made specifically in reference to the paragraph that you directed towards me, which in itself seems to give the opposite impression.

Thanks also for the heads up about the lost souls in the education thread. Your words are always welcome here as far as I'm concerned.

[Maxine Schacker]

Well, Briggsy, it's nice to make your acquaintance. I liked what I saw on your website. What strange times we live in! It's so difficult for people starting out who want to do something that is more than good copying, to find their way.Check out Midgard Serpent's self portraits. There is something special in his work.

[Maxine Schacker]

I would like to post some visual examples...how do I do it? I'd appreciate a brief explanation.
Also, am interested in hearing from any of you who are trying this approach. I'd love to see your efforts.Have any of you gotten a hold of Hawthorne on Painting?

[Jens]

Maxine, you need to press Reply, and you'll be able to add attachments, scroll down a bit untill you see a button with "Manage Attachments", if you click on it a window will pop-up. At the top of that window you will see "upload a file from your computer", find the image on your computer and press "Upload". When you uploaded press close this window. Your image will appear at the bottom of your post when you press "Submit reply". Hope that helps

[Maxine Schacker]

Thanks, Jens! I'll try it next week when I have a little time.

[Maxine Schacker]

We are so, so busy these days that it may be next week before I am able to try posting examples...but its on my list. Meanwhile. has anyone given this approach a try? All you computer savvy people...post your painting efforts and we'll try to give you some feedback.

[arttorney]

People actually trying the method might be a really good idea. I think it is important for beginners to avoid "paralysis by analysis" and just make a few small paintings to see how it goes. Nobody's going to kick you out of the secret global painting network if you make a mistake painting here and there. You'll learn from those.

It felt rather liberating for me when I realized nobody (but me) was looking at the subject matter while I painted, and therefore the world didn't know how it was "supposed to look." At that point one can begin to make choices designed to present an aesthetically pleasing image with the colors at hand (and combinations thereof).
Maybe make a painting version of a contour drawing where the mosaic is based on the lines between the different color patches as though those lines are edges (and don't obsess over what your left brain is telling you is the actual edge of a solid object). It'll come out looking OK anyway, I suspect.

[arttorney]

1 hr. 25 min. oil on cardboard sized and primed with egg-oil emulsion. Colors were cad red medium hue, phthalo blue, ultramarine, lemon yellow, cad yellow deep, titanium white, and burnt umber. I can see where I fouled up a few relationships here and there in my hurry to lay down a mosaic of colors without over analyzing.

crits, comments, paintovers, arrows drawn on with questions/comments all are welcome. Here it is with a digi photo of the general scene:

[ArtznCraphs]

There's some good information in here.

Unfortunately I pretty much loathe modern oil painting practices and palettes. Modern painting, even today's "classical realism" wants for depth and solidity. As far as figure painting, I dont' think the sculptural modeling of the past has been bettered. It has been said that today's artists' paint across the canvas, whereas the painter's of old painted into the canvas. Modern realist painters paint the appearance of the thing, the old painters painted the very nature of it.

On other hand, I can't see going back in time as far as landscape painting is concerned. The chroma, pitch, and vibration of a Thomas Cole or Albert Bierstadt would have been all but impossible with the 19th century palette.

I would disagree that direct painting is the best way for beginners to start learning to handle oil paint in any picture making capacity. It's as much about learning to cope with and exploit the physical properties of the medium as it is mixing the correct colors. In direct painting this is moreso, if one wishes to begin to approach the depth and overall quality possible with a layered approach. Rubens and Hals were masters' whose alla prima paintings held up to the indirect paintings of their time. Much of alla prima today is gimmicky.

If learning to study and reproduce color is all one's goal, acrylic is an economic alternative.

A good and permanent basic palette is:

Flake White (if using oil), Titanium White (if using acrylic)
Cad. Yellow Light
Yellow Ochre
Vermillion or Cad. Red Light
Alizaron Crimson or Rose Madder (not Lake)
Ultramarine Blue
Cobalt
Burnt Sienna
Raw Umber
Green Earth
Ivory Black

the above gives you a good selection of classic and modern pigments, with warm and cool options. Good for working alla prima or in layers.

[Maxine Schacker]

I'm back from vacation and will post some first year oil painting today. If you get exact matching of color- no matter what your palette- you'll get it all, space, texture, form and even personality. I agree that this is not all there is to painting, but without understanding how shapes of color create illusion most people "color" rather than paint. I think we actually agree more than we disagree.

[Maxine Schacker]

Attorney, try really looking and judging (squint!) major colors in relationship to each other. If you are going to use texture, either texture the whole painting, or keep in mind that texture (thick paint) will come forward while m ore thinly painted areas will recede. Your painting looks "modern" because while it's based on identifiable form, the colors are not what you saw, and you do not create space. This is not a right or wrong thing. It depends on what your intentions are, and your ability to express those intentions. There are artists, Schiele for example, who have created work of great expressive power that springs from the language of representational art but has another intention.

Do not work from photos. Try setting up one object (a lemon?) against a piece of drapery. Either use a spot light, or north or east light and if working from daylight STOP when the shadow shapes start to change.

Thanks for posting - I'm really going to try to post some examples today. I'm tech challenged, so wish me luck!

[Judy Warner]

Thanks for all this Maxine, and posters. I read and tried it yesterday morning and it changed my painting experience en plein air. I hope we will keep on discussing.

Since it was the first time I tried the color spotting it took me a while to get started, and I don't think I really understood what you meant about looking at the intersections of colors. A few nitty gritty questions ---

I usually do small studies outside, maybe 5x7. How big should the color spots be to start? Do you draw first?? (I find it very confusing to start with paint dabs.) I do draw in paint. What about isolating the color using a small aperture and then looking at it in comparison?

Thanks again for doing this. I plan to get the Hawthorne book. I have read about it before and love the work of painters who studied with him.

Judy (also from an older generation)

[arttorney]

The shadows moving around is one of the very good reasons for learning to paint fast and confidently. I did this outdoors and just took a photo of what I was looking at for the forums. Of course as the sun moves, the shadows move along the surface of everything. If you work parts of your painting in sequence rather than working around in the whole painting you can end up with a painting of inconsistent shadows. It can be baffling when something looks wrong but you can't put your finger on it because you thought you had painted each of the objects the way they looked. (They just each looked the way you painted them at different times of the day so they don't match up right.)

[the_allejo05]

Color is something personal, be it if you want to use this black or that black..or this blue or that blue, it doesnt matter is the blue you like or the red you like..facts of nature like source of light and shadow ,warmness and coolness is not escapable. Many people talk about this light being warm and cool etc
one fact i found out while staring at my cast is that natural light has a bluish tint, fluorescent a yellowish one and incandescent a red one..regardless of anything, found it by chance the three lights were hitting the white cast and I was able to compare the three lights..so that is what you do!
if you have a red apple (its locar color and just add the tint your apple is receiving light from. The apple is red because of is chemical substance found in plants, they usually have green chlorophyl plus that red or other colors.
For painters the color black is the shadow..with slightly other colors within it because of reflected light..much crap that came from the impressionists of purple shadows does not exist..look at your shadows they are not purple ,absense of light is darkness, meaning Zero color, zero 7 colors of the rainbow as seen tru the prism
they are tinge with the bluish hue of the atmosphere (the sky) so a black plus blue will give you a purple looking shadow ,but is not purple at all if you are outside. INdoors look for the reflected shadows of the adjecent objects, your surrounding floor and wall and the color of the objects themselves..what you see is what you get..if you are not sure, get closer :)
the more you settle on a personal palette that you like the more you will see nature in those colors..when I do a mix of colors and look at my model I will find that color somewhere..why ? because light has all the colors while darkness dont

[Maxine Schacker]

Forget science. Forget local color. See abstractly. Just have the guts - given that you scan and compare- to put down what you actually see, not what you think it should be.

Hawthorne would have you go straight to the canvas, Judy, but I found that this was too difficult for my students. They use dilute ochre and get the 'plan' down. the "spots" should be as small as possible because at this point you are looking and thinking rather than painting. You want to be able to be 'wrong' or suddenly see a color you didn't see before. If a very large shape is all one color just put down a small spot( a color note) in the center. Don't put down more spots than you need. Then look for places where colors change and just paint the intersection, 2 or 3 colors meeting....again as little paint as possible. When you've done enough of these to feel you are on the right track, you are ready to paint...but think abstractly. Paint across. Don't paint an object and then throw something behind it. try to work the whole canvas so you bring up the whole painting together...and always scan and compare. Don't just see the corner you are painting- see everything in relation.

I haven't had the time yet to face my fear and get some examples up . I PROMISE I'll try tomorrow.

Attorney: you don't have to finish in one session. Just paint the same hours the next day.

What we learn from working this way is only part of the story, but it's a very
important part.

[timpaatkins]

Hello Maxine, very interesting thread!

I picked up the Hawthorne book, and read a little in it before I go to bed, and I like it because its just enough info to take a mouthful and be satisfied, not having to eat the whole damn cake to get to the end. (i.e read a whole damn chapter for just a sentence of the good stuff) Wow what an amazing and totally incomprehensible analogy...

Anyways, what I'm wondering is what to do when one has filled the shape with these color spots. Blend or leave them Seurat like? It would be great if you could post some examples!

Cheers Tim

[Maxine Schacker]

The beautiful part is that that's up to you. If you use sable or imitation sable brushes, and apply the paint without texture, you'll get a very "classical" look. If you use brights and make your color shapes from a series of "spots" you will still get the illusion... You can also be very painterly, with brush strokes visible, and some thinner strokes and some thicker.Just kep in mind that thickly painted areas will come forward on the picture plane and thinly painted areas may recede.

When I teach my aim is to give students the knowledge they need to understand their choices. Everyone can be taught the same small "t"
truths and still come out with very individual work, since brushes, medium, surface and scale are also important elements in the final impact of a painting. Hawthorne suggests fast palette knife studies. It's interesting to do these and simply apply the paint without trying to use the brush strokes to convey the form. Seeing what color can do all by itself is a really amazing experience.

I keep saying I'll get work posted, but the folks who can give me a hand learning how to do it are so busy and look so tired, I haven't had the heart to ask them. I'll try to get a student to help me this week.

All of this is about learning - not about making art. See them as studies (like scales on the piano) and free yourself from the need to produce.

I still reread Hawthorne for inspiration. Although a lot of my own work is now done from drawings, imagination, and photo reference, if I hadn't done as much work from life as I have, I couldn't work as effectively now.

[k4pka]

The sooner the images the better. You talk the talk...

[Judy Warner]

I've kept painting like this for the past few days and find it wonderfully helpful. I do continue to draw in the larger shapes of a landscape before doing the "color spots." I think I've been making them too big though. Making them smaller would probably increase the discipline of looking carefully and not assuming that it's all the same across an area or surface.

Boy does the light change fast outside though. I'd never realized how fast until I started painting this way.

Judy

[Maxine Schacker]

Do try a still life or two! The light will remain more constant. Monet used to have his children carry canvasses for him - he'd switch from one to another if the conditions changed. I agree that the biggest challenge is doing this outdoors. What about trying the palette knife quick studies Hawthorne suggests? I once took a student (she later became a friend and is a terrific artist) with me on a landscape outing. She worked on paper and simply put down color. She thought she had "nothing" but when we stepped back she had a vibrant and quite beautiful little landscape study. It actually won her a prize.

[ArtznCraphs]

Yeah, definitely don't be discouraged about the light changing. Having a finished piece isn't what it's about. Rubbing in the broad areas alone will tell you much . Go for solid shapes of color, no detail. In an hours time you can do both a color study and a pencil sketch (to record non color information like texture, geographic/botanical detail. etc).

To facilitate paint application, add medium to each mound of color on your palette until the paint is the consistency of mayo. Don't just dip your brush in the medium as you go.

[Maxine Schacker]

It's too difficult for me to get the images up on this thread! (I just made the attempt but the files are too big for this site). However, our new Blog will be ready tomorrow and I'll post images there (and give you all the address) by the end of the week. I plan to post student work from first year painting, and will also try to post some of my own work.

ArtznCraphs, there are many valid ways to approach the study of painting. However , it's confusing to give people conflicting info. Everything you suggest is worthwhile and valid, but we are investigating a different approach. I suggest that we respect all approaches and that you begin a thread explaining your approach. I'd be happy to suggest to people that they explore several approaches - one at a time.

[Jens]

Maxine, if you want, mail me the pictures and i'll put them up for you in this thread

jens_claessens@hotmail.com

[Maxine Schacker]

Thanks, Jens, but I just got the info on the new BLOG and will try to post them there tomorrow! Let's see if that works out. How is your painting coming along?

[Judy Warner]

Looking forward to seeing the blog. Judy

[Maxine Schacker]

At long last!!!! Here are a few examples of student paintings. I'll try to post more examples next week. I'm also trying to get some of my own work posted.

http://www.maxthemutt.com/blog/index.php/2007/07/11/first-year-oil-painting/

[Judy Warner]

It's very helpful to see this painting. The color sample spots are much smaller than I thought. After you mix these, do you somehow keep them on your palette so you can use them later? I never know how to manage the palette so I'm not constantly mixing and remixing. Any thoughts to help with this?? Judy

[Maxine Schacker]

I've suggested to students that they put a dot of the color on a piece of paper and short hand what colors they used in the mix. After a while, if you work for awhile with the same base colors, you'll know what you used. These "centers" are really like meditation - you're not painting yet. You're thinking and you'll probably decide you were wrong about some of them. When you do two or three colors at their point of meeting, or across, be sure you also keep these "test patches" as small as possible. Again, this is direct painting and you don't want to commit yet. You want to study. The beauty of this approach is that you have the time to scan and compare and learn to see. The process is the most important thing, since you are feeding a lot of information into your brain. The more you do this the faster (in general) you get at the seeing part.

[Maxine Schacker]

I've copied and pasted a post I made on the oil painting thread in response
to a query. I thought some of the info might be helpful.

In my experience it all matters. There are at least 10 different kinds of linen, from portrait linen which is super smooth, to very, very rough linen. Duck, which is cotton, will give the paint a very different feel. The primer also has an effect. I used to use rabbit skin glue and white lead, which is dangerous to work with. You can get preprimed linen that has a white lead surface. Many people use acrylic gesso. It always rubbed me the wrong way to use acrylic gesso on a beautiful piece of linen.

It seems to me that most art forms take at least 10 years of study, and of course we go on exploring and learning our whole lives. Part of that time is spent thinking about our vision and what we are trying to express. Then we try different combinations of surface, medium, different kinds of brushes.

The only way for you to find out is to explore...but first things first. There are several ways to approach the beginning study of painting. I would assume that first you'll want to learn about color and color mixing. Keep it all simple. Think of what you're doing like exercises on the piano - you don't have to play a piece and perform at Carnegie Hall yet. I suggest tying out a variety of brushes, from brights to rounds. Keep you medium simple. If you paint in layers, the rule is fat over lean, meaning that each subsequent layer needs more oil added to the paint. I'd start with artist's quality linseed oil. If you are doing direct painting (one layer) you may also wish to add a little bit of "medium" to your paint. You can use a baby food jar and mix a little bit of the oil with an equal amount of artist's quality turps.

You are obviously knowledgeable. Your monochromatic painting shows that you understand tonal pattern- and a great deal more! When you paint decide if your light source is warm or cool and be consistent. One of the secrets of good color is keeping your colors clean. Mix in the middle of the palette and use a knife to pick up the paint. Be sure your base colors are pure, be sure your brush is clean, be sure your medium (if you use it) is clean. Muddy color is often the result of bad housekeeping.If, like me, you get excited and things get out of control KNOW when you have to stop and regain control!

Painting can be wonderful,magical, and frequently painful, and I hope it gives you as much as it has given me. I couldn't find a word for what the " as much" is, since its not always pleasurable....

Bernard Chaet has an excellent book on materials and methods.
Last edited by Maxine Schacker : Yesterday at 08:38 PM

[Seedling]

Maxine, try this: resolution 32 ppi, witdh 400 pixels, saved as a slightly compressed jpeg. That should put your images at a managable size for posting here.

[Maxine Schacker]

People seem very confused by warm and cool. Since it is one of the most important parts of working with color, I thought I'd share a few thoughts. First, in art everything is relative. If you are working with a limited palette of earth colors, yellow ochre is probably warm. If you are working with the colors I suggested , yellow ochre is closer to neutral, although on the warm side. That's because cad red light and middle and cad yellow middle are much warmer.

While there are warmer blues and cooler blues, if you're trying to mix a warm shadow probably you will need to add a touch of warm red. Cadmiums are so powerful that a pinpoint can change a color. You have to use your eyes. Look at the colors side by side and ask yourself if you can feel the temperature change.

If you have trouble "seeing" warm and cool, try setting up a simple still life near an east or north window. Look at it. Now, close the curtains and shine a desk lamp or spot light on the set up. You will immediately see the difference. Daylight is usually cool light, it adds a cool glaze to everything it touches. Lamp light is warm. It adds a warm glaze to everything it touches. All of this will get easier as you get more painting time under your belt. When Rembrandt was asked for advice, he said, "Pick up the brush and paint." I think that's good advice. At first just worry about seeing color, exact matching color, scanning and comparing. See abstractly: paint across and just lay down the colors. Let the color do all the work. This isn't the be all and end all. It's the beginning, and its important. Once you get the hang of doing this , you will find that you are painting, not coloring and your work will be vibrant because nature is vibrant.

I will be on vacation on and off and will be trying to stay away from computers, but I'll try to get more work posted on our new Blog. The link above will get you there.

[Seedling]

Have a good vacation Maxine! :-)

[Judy Warner]

I got the Hawthorne book and have been dipping in. Today I have to try looking sideways at the color spots--

What do you mean when you say "paint across" in the post above? Does this mean, don't paint an object but go across the image as if it were on a grid and you were filling in consecutive boxes with color??

I also wonder how people keep track of where they are when painting or drawing, and they look away from the subject and then look back. Do you go back to a certain spot and then look back to there?

I believe that certain habits of thought prevent us from being able to draw/paint well--and I'm trying to analyze my habits of thought while painting. Judy

[Maxine Schacker]

When I followed Hawthorne, I did exactly what he advised, but found when teaching that it was too difficult for students. Hawthorne wants you to worry about drawing later. he asks you to focus so completely that you are able to work with no prelim drawing! The way we approach it now, students (who have other courses at the same time that reinforce the skill base), dilute ochre with turps and put in the basic linear plan. They know point-to-point, shape ,positive and negative space, and how to use a straight edge or plumb line to measure. Then they find one example of the lightest light, and one of the darkest dark and put down a bit of each to scan against. The point is to forget edges and background/foreground and simply see color.
It is, indeed, a very abstract way of working that yields an amazingly concrete end result. Before really painting the painting, and after judging the major centers, you want to see color notes next to each other, so you look for places where they meet, or do some places where two or three color changes happen across the canvass, but you are still looking, not painting. Therefore, you just want a "sampler," since you may change your mind. Indeed, it can look like a three change "strip." Then, once you feel ready and start to paint, you need to keep scanning and comparing. Don't obsess in one place- compare to other places on the canvass. Yes, you should try to paint across. You die to get the next color...don't ever paint an object and then throw the background in. You are building connections and relationships. Even when choosing places to put color changes next to each other, always try to go beyond the object to what's next to it. The "boundaries" presented by objects are irrelevant. Have the courage to put down what you "see."

The distance from the light source changes on each object from top to bottom. Light, and therefore color, also moves across. You can't decide on a color and then paint it like a stripe from top to bottom without checking, scanning and comparing...and you'll probably find that you should have (squinting) observed more closely. This is a way of getting people to 'see," color, learn the power of color on it's own, and get a feeling for what painting is about. It is not a didactic, "this is the only way" approach. Its a beginning- a powerful beginning. Also, since scale, surface, medium and brush choice affect outcome, when I was teaching , the same knowledge base yielded very different paintings. I have never trusted classes where everyone has to work by a formula yielding identical work.Color vision also varies. As a teacher, I could tell when a student was really off, but didn' expect everyone to "see" identically.

PS Try using your brush to paint across rather then up and down. Especially on limbs, vases etc, this will keep things from looking "striped."

PPS In answer to your last comment, one has the same problem no matter how one is painting. I suggest just sitting and looking and checking out the spots you've already put down. Also, when having a problem "seeing," it does help to look away, see it out of the corner of your eye, and then try looking at another color and then back to the one giving you trouble.

All the time you spend looking, thinking, struggling,is feeding information to your brain. Without all the time I've spent looking and struggling to 'see' color, I couldn't paint effectively from my imagination.

Seedling, as soon a I have time, I'll try posting following your advice. It will be very liberating to learn this. I'm supposed to be on vacation, but things keep happening (good things, happily). However, I am getting much more time in my studio. I've realized once again that if I don't make it happen, it won't happen.

Judy, are you a painter trying to enlarge your vocabulary, or just starting out? Either way I envy you the genuine excitement I know you'll feel as it all starts happening.

[Judy Warner]

I am excited by this way of working and am finding it helpful as a new way of discovering. I have been painting steadily for about 3 years now, and did a lot of drawing for about 8 years. I had some art training in HS and college, but then was away from it for 35 years. Now I'm retired and working seriously on my skills. (It's always hard for me to believe how old I am.) I worked teaching children who had reading problems, and I discovered that many of them had beliefs about what reading is that got in their way--and I think the same may be true of drawing and painting. I'm very interested in the thought processes underlie the artist's work.

Anyway, thanks for all the explanations--they are very helpful. I'm off to paint right now and try out what you just wrote. Judy

[dose]

You can't decide on a color and then paint it like a stripe from top to bottom without checking, scanning and comparing...and you'll probably find that you should have (squinting) observed more closely.

I learned a similar method of painting from this great old teacher who learned at the Academy in Russia. When students would mix up a color and paint a big area with it, he would always say:

"Not to make like a house painter! You must to touch...touch...touch"

[Chris Bennett]

I think that attention to the warm/cool effect makes for a greater sense of luminosity but I am doubtful that it is responsible for creating a stronger sense of form. Cezanne's paintings, for example, seen in black and white are just as formally powerful as when seen in colour.
Powerful form is the result of seeing forms in relation to each other as a kind of frozen rythmic music. This is why Michelangelo and Leyendecker are so vivid in their plastic realisation. If forms are seen in isolation a problem similar to that with colour reationships and tonal relationships arise. Like colour, to achieve richness and intensity requires each element to 'skratch the back' of its neighbours.
What is meant by 'drawing' has little to do with making lines but everything to do with realising forms in relationship with each other. This can be in a linear way (Leyendecker, Ingres,) or a 'harmonic', 'All-at-once' sort of way (Cezanne, Piero Della Francesca).
The colour patches, as used by Cezanne, are not planes or observed, empirical colour touches roughly corresponding to areas on the model. They are areas of force whose orientation to their neighbours create a formal, abstract vocabulary that 'reinvents' the way we read form as abstract pattern.

[dbclemons]

So much of what the painter creates relies fundamentaly on the mixing of pigment, and yet many artists spend very little time on that very thing. The goal of creating reference files of color swatches is critical to learning how different paints mix together, and takes the guess work out of color matching. It's an excercise that nevers grows old.

[Maxine Schacker]

Chris, it definitely affects form. How dark, how light is an intrinsic part of exact matching of color. There is no "matching" without it! But once you are beyond one color and white, once you introduce warm/cool as part of the game, the viewer will read three cools or three warms in a row as a pattern. It will work against the illusion of form.

[Judy Warner]

I think I did my best plein air work ever today using what I understand about this method. (which is probably still very incomplete) I have trouble with the warm-cool concept for one thing. I also find it necessary to do a drawing first. I believe I read somewhere that Hawthorne insisted on using a painting knife, not brushes--is that so? In most cases, wouldn't the sky be the lightest light outside?

I certainly find it rewarding, but hard, to keep to the color spots and not start painting whole sections--but I can see how much information I'm getting with the spots. Just have to be more patient!

Judy

[Chris Bennett]

Chris, it definitely affects form. How dark, how light is an intrinsic part of exact matching of color. There is no "matching" without it! But once you are beyond one color and white, once you introduce warm/cool as part of the game, the viewer will read three cools or three warms in a row as a pattern. It will work against the illusion of form.

I would agree that it affects form Maxine, in the sense that it intensifies our impression of it if the colour is working properly. The experience of form becomes more vivid, more visceral and the sensual pleasure is intensified. But I wouldn't say colour actually draws the form or realises it.

Of course there is my 'see a B&W photograph and the form is unaffected' example - but this of course isn't any kind of conclusive proof. I guess the only way one could be sure if colour temperature actually creates form rather than just intensify it, would be to make a painting with no tonal variation whatsoever - in other words paint something with colours of identical tonal value (so that a B&W photo of the results rendered a featureless, single tone) but with differing temperature and hue.

[panchosimpson]

I guess the only way one could be sure if colour temperature actually creates form rather than just intensify it, would be to make a painting with no tonal variation whatsoever - in other words paint something with colours of identical tonal value (so that a B&W photo of the results rendered a featureless, single tone) but with differing temperature and hue.

for what it's worth, Anders Zorn seemed to be aiming for just that, a canvas with minimal tonal contrast, but with different hue and temperature shifts

here's the quote

"I strived for a result with the same values over the entire canvas, no contrasts… just different colours. I found a pink cliff, on which I placed a couple of models in a pre-decided position and began my work. It was only when I told them to take a break that I found my painting."

and the site (http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/15549/305/page11.php)

also, for a more recent example, in this painting (http://www.burdicklyon.com/2006scott30.htm) by Scott Burdick, the modeling on the girl's face is largely achieved by temp shifts as the value is largely the same

[Flake]

That is a beautiful painting..

[Maxine Schacker]

Chris, value exists in nature. Exact matching of color includes value - or it isn't an exact match! The way you could play with this is to get the values right but not the temperature. Do three or four cools (or warms) in a row, painting something turning in space, and you'll see it right away.

Flake, I agree! What a lovely painting. However, there is a tonal pattern! Warm and cool as well....

[Seedling]

In most cases, wouldn't the sky be the lightest light outside

The answer to that can be found in Chris Bennett’s avatar. ;-)

[Chris Bennett]

The way you could play with this is to get the values right but not the temperature. Do three or four cools (or warms) in a row, painting something turning in space, and you'll see it right away.....

I've just looked at a painting of a vase in photoshop and then made a desaturated layer copy and tinted the whole thing a warm sepia. Thus I could compare an image where the warm/cool oscillations were correct and an identical image where the temperature changes were 'wrong' ie all warm. I have to say there was no difference in how I read and 'understood' the form, only that the experience of reading it was more 'vivid' or luminious.

[Maxine Schacker]

Chris, if it's ALL warm or ALL cool, of course there's no difference! We are talking about using warm and cool together. You just changed the painting into a tonal study in sepia and white...warm white, at that. That would be no different than a tonal study in black and white. Now try a full color painting, where visibly warm and visibly cool colors are both being used, and place three or four warms next to each other and see what you get. It won't work.

[Chris Bennett]

Maxine: I realise it wouldn't work and the changes would look out of wack with what else is going on. But my main issue is that although it will look discordant it won't affect the reading of the form as such.

Certainly, a colour is defined by it's tone as much as its warmth. So when painting, both things are caught up together. I was trained at the Slade School of Fine Art in England and thus have a very thourough grounding in painting in patches of colour, with close attention to croma rather than 'tonal painting' and it is second nature for me to think cromatically when 'turning the form' rather than modelling it with tone. However, I feel it is a mistake to think that the croma is modelling the form as opposed to the value of the colour. Getting the croma right when modelling (not a term I like, I prefer the word drawing) has more to do with keeping things 'in tune' rather than affecting the structure of the formal melody itself.

[Maxine Schacker]

What more can I say? I try to say everything in the simplest way possible, and I'm pragmatic. If you put too many warms or too many cools in a row, it will read flat, that is, the illusion of form turning in space will be lost even if the tonal pattern is dead on.

[Bowlin]

Maxine: Can you show us an example?

[k4pka]

What more can I say? I try to say everything in the simplest way possible, and I'm pragmatic. If you put too many warms or too many cools in a row, it will read flat, that is, the illusion of form turning in space will be lost even if the tonal pattern is dead on.

I agree to an extent:

Whilst many cools/warms in a row read as a pattern, if the said warm/cool colours in a row also have correct value changes, the form can still be read this way. The colours on that form however, will not add anything to the perception of form, creating a pattern as they do. If a correct transition of both value (light to dark) and temperature (warm to cool or vice versa) are adhered to, the form will read very strongly.

I do disagree here though:

...even if the tonal pattern is dead on.

I would say that if one of these two things is wrong (value or temperature), the perception of form will suffer, but not be obliterated.

Mary Cassat for example was amazing at turning form with almost no value changes, using colour temperature alone.

[panchosimpson]

ok, so in the interest of helping beginning students, here's a portrait demo (http://www.tlchicken.com/db_images/8_5_pop_workshop.jpg) by jeff watts (quite a few probably know his work), a great artist from san diego. jeff seems to work by putting separate color notes together as Maxine suggests, instead of painting the whole shape....plus his work is utterly awesome

more stuff on his site http://www.jeffreyrwatts.com/

[Chris Bennett]

For real painting with colour shape and building of forms take a look at this....

[tensai]

Chris, is that Euan Uglow?

[Chris Bennett]

Right on the nose tensai!
There is a fantastic book just out of his entire paintings; it's about £70 (I don't know what that is in dollars) and I'm sorely tempted to get it. He was my teacher at Art school. His death was a great shock and loss to many of us.
Do you know his work much?

Here's a couple more for those who don't know his work:

[Seedling]

LOL! Those figure paintings have a great sense of humor.

[Judy Warner]

Hawthorne: Consider the big spot of the earth and the big spot of the sky-start your canvas by putting down a small spot of color for each. Think of the sky more as a curtain-hold up a piece of white against it to help you judge its value.

Question? How does he mean us to "hold up a piece of white" against the sky. Does this mean hold up a piece of white paper? If you are in the shade and the canvas is in the shade, do you hold the paper in the sun or in the shade?

I also assume we go on to put many spots of color for both earth and sky--and where they meet. Can someone expand further on what he means about starting?? Lightest light, darkest dark, and easy colors first???

Judy

[panchosimpson]

Question? How does he mean us to "hold up a piece of white" against the sky. Does this mean hold up a piece of white paper? If you are in the shade and the canvas is in the shade, do you hold the paper in the sun or in the shade?

Judy

Yep, i'm sure he means to hold up a piece of white paper, since that would likely be close to your lightest value, i wouldn't hold it in the shade because then it wouldn't we as light as it could be. so hold the paper in the sun, even if you and your canvas aren't. hope this helps

[tensai]

Right on the nose tensai!
There is a fantastic book just out of his entire paintings; it's about £70 (I don't know what that is in dollars) and I'm sorely tempted to get it. He was my teacher at Art school. His death was a great shock and loss to many of us.
Do you know his work much?

Oh yeah - I'm a huge fan. But I'd never seen the painting you posted first, that's why I asked. There is also a new book coming out this september. It's called Euan Uglow: The Complete Paintings by C. Lampert and R. Kendall.

I can't believe you were taught by him man. You got any notes you would want to share?

[Maxine Schacker]

Name: 7496.jpg Views: 37 Size: 31.8 KB

Notice that in this painting we lose the direction of the model stand- on the right it reads as a flat patch of color and doesn't give the illusion of going back in space. This is not a criticism of this painter or this painting , since this may well have been his intention. None of these paintings is about creating a sense of real space and form. Again, this is all perfectly legitimate. However, in teaching beginners to paint we try to teach them the language so they can have the ability to choose what they want to do. They need to know what their choices are.

Name: artwork_images_707_218323_euan-uglow.jpg Views: 37 Size: 42.8 KB
In all the paintings, the artist is creating very shallow space, and the plane that the orange(?) is sitting on is vertical- it does not recede. Again, this is not a judgement about the painting or the artist. It's obviously his choice.

We are mixing (pun, pun) apples and oranges.

[Bowlin]

Judy: I don't think he means 'white paper' technically. He's more than likely indicating to hold some white paint on your brush up to the sky. When your trying to mix colors for a painting from life, you can mix the color, hold it up to the area your wanting to paint... compare to see if the chroma, value, hue are correct, then apply it. Hold the paint to compare where your canvas is (sun or shade), since that's where the paint is going to end up at.

[dbclemons]

There's a tool many painters use for a similar effect which is a card that has a range of gray squares on it and a hole punched in each square. When you hold it up to the scene your viewing, looking through the hole you can use it to isolate the value of the color you're looking at. Of course, you then have to mix the color.

[Judy Warner]

When I hold up something white to the scene I'm painting, it is always much darker than the sky. Is that because the range of values in nature is so much greater than paint and paper?? I have a hard time with this type of comparison, so maybe I'm not doing it correctly. Judy

[Chris Bennett]

When I hold up something white to the scene I'm painting, it is always much darker than the sky. Is that because the range of values in nature is so much greater than paint and paper?? I have a hard time with this type of comparison, so maybe I'm not doing it correctly. Judy

The business of painting is about relationships between things, not matching a piece of paint colour to a piece of apparently flat colour in nature and plonking it down in roughly the right place. It's not about copying, its about finding and inventing equivalents.

[Chris Bennett]

Oh yeah - I'm a huge fan. But I'd never seen the painting you posted first, that's why I asked. There is also a new book coming out this september. It's called Euan Uglow: The Complete Paintings by C. Lampert and R. Kendall.

I can't believe you were taught by him man. You got any notes you would want to share?

Well, he was a very quiet yet highly charismatic man. His advice was intensely practical and his suggestions to one's painting problems were always completely pragmatic. However, I used to press him more than most and managed to get him to tell me that one had to 'become' what they were painting in some way. He also said that painting was hours and hours of 'homework' until all of a sudden a 'magic moment' would take place and was the thing you were always waiting and making ready for.
When I have a bit more time I'll post some more things I remember about him here later if you wish.

[Seedling]

When I hold up something white to the scene I'm painting, it is always much darker than the sky. Is that because the range of values in nature is so much greater than paint and paper?? I have a hard time with this type of comparison, so maybe I'm not doing it correctly. Judy

That's because the sunlight is not hitting your piece of paper. look at a white building, tee-shirt, etc. being hit by direct sunlight against the sky, and compare. Then look at the shadows on that same whte object and compare.

[tensai]

When I have a bit more time I'll post some more things I remember about him here later if you wish.

That would be cool - anything, any time man. Just really curious about him.

cheers...

[Bowlin]

The business of painting is about relationships between things, not matching a piece of paint colour to a piece of apparently flat colour in nature and plonking it down in roughly the right place. It's not about copying, its about finding and inventing equivalents.

At first I thought, "Chris is right". But then I thought, it's impossible to try and "copy" from nature... comparing your paint to nature you can only "find and invent equivalents". Paint can only translate so much information. Therefore, comparing your paint to nature can be one technique to help you establish the value (and chroma & hue). You might need to refine it on the canvas so that it works accordingly with the other values and colors

Your trying to show what you see before you, in some way. You can alter the value, chroma, hue so that it works on the canvas the way you want it too (trompe loeil, plein air, ... visual poetry, however you want to explain it).

[Chris Bennett]

At first I thought, "Chris is right". But then I thought, it's impossible to try and "copy" from nature... comparing your paint to nature you can only "find and invent equivalents". Paint can only translate so much information. Therefore, comparing your paint to nature can be one technique to help you establish the value (and chroma & hue). You might need to refine it on the canvas so that it works accordingly with the other values and colors

Your trying to show what you see before you, in some way. You can alter the value, chroma, hue so that it works on the canvas the way you want it too (trompe loeil, plein air, ... visual poetry, however you want to explain it).

Bowlin, I think you missread me! I agree with what you are saying. You can't copy from nature. You have to invent, make equivelnts.
Lets say you are looking at a tree. It's impossible to copy it. It has to be re-imagined as a translucent canopy of floating volume. When it is understood as something graspable then you can imagine a way of painting it.

[Chris Bennett]

Name: 7496.jpg Views: 37 Size: 31.8 KB

Notice that in this painting we lose the direction of the model stand- on the right it reads as a flat patch of color and doesn't give the illusion of going back in space. This is not a criticism of this painter or this painting , since this may well have been his intention. None of these paintings is about creating a sense of real space and form. Again, this is all perfectly legitimate. However, in teaching beginners to paint we try to teach them the language so they can have the ability to choose what they want to do. They need to know what their choices are.

Name: artwork_images_707_218323_euan-uglow.jpg Views: 37 Size: 42.8 KB
In all the paintings, the artist is creating very shallow space, and the plane that the orange(?) is sitting on is vertical- it does not recede. Again, this is not a judgement about the painting or the artist. It's obviously his choice.

We are mixing (pun, pun) apples and oranges.

The thing is Maxine, Euan is using the sort of cromatic language you are talking about yet, as you rightly point out, achieves a shallow space. This is entirely to do with drawing, not colour, as these paintings demonstrate. I have purposely chosen paintings that have not been pushed too far in order to make my point - it's only as things are tightened up, i.e., realised as drawing that the forms become fuller (to see the effect of this see the attachment below).

The forms are intensely realised yet seen as flat pattern at the same time - something that any painting worthy of the name should always do. This has nothing to do with 'realism' or lack of it, since Ingres paintings achieve the same thing beautifully.

[stephen]

i cant figure out for the life of me the points being discussed anymore but i like the paintings.

[Maxine Schacker]

For real painting with colour shape and building of forms take a look at this....

This painting doesn't try to create deep space, and the lower arm is completely flat- no form at all. In this day and age, the artist has complete freedom to work in ways too numerous to mention, among them to work flat, or work to create the illusion of shallow space, or with the goal of creating the illusion of deep space.I really worry that this thread has become more confusing to the new painter than helpful.

My apologies to all of you new painters. I should have titled this thread differently. What this experience clarifies for me is why so many young students are overwhelmed by painting. My advice is to start, as I suggested earlier, by learning to scan and compare. See whatever is within your format as if it were already painted. Squint, scan and compare. Go from the center of one shape of color to another and try to exact match. Read what I wrote earlier. Better yet, buy yourself a copy of Hawthorne on Painting (Dover Press). If you check my entries above you'll find the link to the Max the Mutt Blog. There are examples of first year paintings done this way, and some of them are in process. For those of you who need to learn to use color and convey the illusion of real space ( a must for concept artists), this is a great way to BEGIN your studies.

[Bowlin]

Ahhh... we're getting at the same point. My bad.

[stephen]

here's a small preview of the book on google books if anyone is interested.

Hawthorne on Painting (http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-DTj_Tbn28C&dq=hawthorne+on+painting&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=LEPOVCKNBS&sig=U0-jxZLBZnraAqQKB2RbGuRk9Mk)

[Judy Warner]

Thank you very much Maxine for starting this thread. I hope it will continue. I've been doing the compare and scan thing for a while now, and would love to have some further discussion. Is anyone still there?? Judy

[Chris Bennett]

Maxine seemed to think I was confusing her thread with my thoughts Judy, so I thought I had better keep quiet.

[Bowlin]

Hey Judy, a next step you can take is to really try and understand the painting model most artist go by. Try to understand to the fullest what each of these three terms mean and how you use them in making a picture.

[Judy Warner]

Can you be a bit more specific? I usually do a value sketch before painting, and I know theoretically what these terms mean, and have read about them. Do you have some special exercises to suggest? Judy

[Bowlin]

Here ya go. This is a pretty good article that covers it.

http://painting.about.com/od/colourtheory/a/huevaluechroma.htm

As far as exercises, this is about "how to mix colors". Painting an object (or landscape, etc..) from life (the simpler the object, landscape, etc. the better)is the best way to go about it. Often times I had felt like I've done a good drawing, only to find the reason my painting wasn't working was from drawing problems. So try to separate what are drawing problems and what are color mixing problems. The model above is about mixing colors accurately.

[briggsy@ashtons]

Judy, if you understand the concepts of the colour wheel and tone, then you have the basis that you need. Imagine a spherical globe with the colour wheel around the equator, white at the North Pole, and black at the South Pole.(Actually there is a fundamental problem with the sphere model that means you will want to replace it with a slightly more sophisicated model before long, but it will do for a start). You can think of any colour as occupying a point in this sphere, defined by its Hue (position around the colour wheel), Chroma (= intensity, ranging from zero at the axis to maximum at the equator) and Tone or Value (vertical position in the sphere). You can then think of colour mixing as manouvering through this sphere - i.e. adjusting these three dimensions to get closer to your target colour. Before you add a colour you can think, hmm, what effect is this likely to have on hue, chroma, AND tone, and is this going to bring me closer to my target? Can I think instead of some mixture to add that will bring me in closer. There is still an element of trial and error, but it's trial and error at a whole higher level of control. I promise you you'll never go back to just thinking in terms of "warmer" and "cooler", at any rate.

[Bowlin]

There are different variations on the same model that briggsy is talking about... but just to help give some visual aid...

[Flake]

Another diagram that might or might not help.

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/4700/munsellyh8.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[briggsy@ashtons]

Nice work once again guys. Judy, the most crucial point is the one already made here, that you should think of the colours in your subject in relation to one another, rather than trying to match each one in isolation. The three dimensions give you a more precise frame of reference for grasping those relationships.

[Judy Warner]

Thanks for these diagrams--much richer than thinking warm/cool. I keep working away at doing the color "spots" and am finding it rewarding. Hawthorne seems to often say to start with the shadows--if I'm interpreting correctly. The comments are hard to interpret without seeing what he's talking about. Judy

[Maxine Schacker]

I've been in my studio whenever I can get there. What a relief to be painting again! Now we're close to starting the academic year and, as you can imagine, everyone is buzzing around with too much to do. All of this as an apology for not keeping up with this thread, but you all seem to be doing exceptionally well without me. Judy, if you are more computer savvy than I am, I'd love to see your studies.

I am seriously on the brink of posting my own work. I'm planning to take advantage of being the school director...i.e. I'll ask one of the tech people for an assist. More important, I hope you've all visited the post on our blog where I got some student (first year) work up. I'll try to get more of their work posted.
Briggsy and I agree, and I think any painter worth his/her salt would, that the fundamental thing is scanning and comparing. Birggsy, I love your globes.

[Flake]

I am seriously on the brink of posting my own work. I'm planning to take advantage of being the school director...i.e. I'll ask one of the tech people for an assist.

Maxine, assuming you already have reasonably sized digital images of your work in a suitable format (jpeg, jpg, gif, whatever, avoid bmp) it's fairly easy.

Either upload them to CA using the attachments function (the paperclip icon above your text when you post a reply) or upload them to a free image host such as www.imageshack.us then copy the "hotlink for forums" code into your reply.

There used to be an illustrated sticky topic explaining the uploading / linking procedure in great depth but it seems to have vanished unfortunately, possibly misplaced in a site rebuild, anyone know where it is?

Alternatively, have one of the tech monkeys do it, power has its privileges after all. :)

[Judy Warner]

I will attempt to upload some images tomorrow, thanks for the help, Flake. Welcome back Maxine. I look forward to your posts. Judy

[briggsy@ashtons]

Birggsy, I love your globes.

Heh heh! Thanks Maxine, but they aren't my globes that have caught your fancy. Those farbenkugels belong to Herr Philipp Otto Runge. They hold a rather important place in colour history as marking the first (1810) clear conception of a colour space defined by dimensions of hue, lightness and intensity.

[Judy Warner]

I hope there may be some people interested in getting this thread going again. I'm still working on using the "color spot" technique for plein air painting. My biggest success so far has been when I've consciously exaggerated the warm-cool contrast, making it more obvious than I think it really is.

I love the work of David Curtis, a UK painter--I wonder what is the best way to analyze what I like about his painting.

Judy Warner

[k4pka]

The best way to analyse David Curtis? I guess the same way I do, by looking at them closely. Surely only you can tell what it is that you like about them?

Break it down? Is it th subject? The drawing? The values? The colour harmonies, etc.

Ive been lucky enough to meet the chap and see him paint, along with see a good collection of his stuff in real life. Definately an eye opener!

[Judy Warner]

I think it's his use of color and value that are the most exciting. I find that unless I try to copy a painting I don't have a good way to analyze it. I wonder how other people go about doing an "analysis" --if they have an organized way, what they look for, etc.

I wonder if doing a "color spot" of the painting would help?

I'd love to see some of his work in real life--repros in books are not the same thing.

Judy

[Mr-Joe]

This is a great thread, Lots of good information.

There were a few color pallets recommended for painting with warms and cools, It seems that all of the pallets have Cadmium in it.

Is there a color pallet that someone can recommend that does not include Cadmium or other Pigments that are toxic?

[ArtznCraphs]

This is a great thread, Lots of good information.

There were a few color pallets recommended for painting with warms and cools, It seems that all of the pallets have Cadmium in it.

Is there a color pallet that someone can recommend that does not include Cadmium or other Pigments that are toxic?
For oil:

Gamblin's Flake White Replacement
Naples Yellow (Some have lead some don't)
Yellow Ochre
Vermillion (warm red)
Rose Madder or Alizarin Crimson (cool red)
Burnt Sienna
Burnt Umber
Prussian Blue (cool blue)
Ultramarine Blue (warm blue)
Ivory Black
Veridian
Green Earth

You'll be hurting for a high chroma, opaque yellow, but the good permanent ones are toxic.

[Maxine Schacker]

Judy sent me a message looking for this thread, so I'm trying to reactivate it for her. One of the most difficult things for students, is that process can vary so much. In fact,ultimately, finding the process that's right for one's vision is critically important. However, there are so many choices, so many routes, that it really can become overwhelming. The process I suggested has worked for a great number of students (as a starting point), because it narrows the range, and attempts to get the student to experience some fundamentals of painting.
After many years of teaching, I can vouch for this approach as an excellent way to learn to see and mix color.

After being involved with this thread, I frequently felt that with all the diverse information being posted we might be doing more harm than good. I certainly hope that wasn't (isn't) the case, but I'm withdrawing partly because of that fear; partly because I'm teaching, directing a school, trying to do my own work , and finding that everyone's so busy I'm having trouble finding the time to get help photographing and posting work (there are a few student paintings posted on the Max the Mutt Blog).

I met some interesting people through this thread.

Judy, I hope getting it up again will be of help to you. If you post anything and want me to take a look, just let me know. Good painting, everyone.

[Judy Warner]

Thanks Maxine, I appreciate all your help. Knowing about this way of working has been very helpful for me, and I've been using this approach in my painting since I first read about it here. I hope your message doesn't mean you aren't going to be participating at all any more--

Judy

[lemelin]

Me to! I will use that way of viewing from now.