Painter or Draftsmen?

[Nyx702]

I was thinking about this theory the other day and it maybe simple common knowledge to some people but it just kind-of clicked with me. So here it is:

I think to truly progress in skill level a young artist needs to find weather they have a “draftsman” or a “painter” mind set. From all the processes/tutorials I have observed from talented artist they basically fall into two categories: painters or draftsmen. Thus meaning that their process is attune to drawing or painting. The people that work really well blocking out values and slowly refining it are obviously painter and those that make awesome linework and “color” over/under it are obviously of the draftsmen mindset. So, I think that if you are having trouble progressing or something is just not “clicking” with you, try find out weather or not you have a “painter” or “draftsman” mindset. Then you can adapt you process to become more analogous to your mindset; basically make the art work for you!

Everyone may already know this but I have never seen it stated anywhere. Hopefully this may help some people that are stuck…it did for me! I think it would be neat to develop some sort of small tests to see one’s mindset.

[Dile_]

Great i'm both :P .. but on the other side i'm not a great artist..

[Nyx702]

Ha! I guess i forgot to mention a duality…I guess those guys are just protégées?

[Dile_]

Well. In the ground i'm a painter then, but i do experiment a lot = )

[dose]

If it's a useful label to help you go forward, use it. If you find it stifling or are using it as an excuse, get rid of it.

For years I considered myself a draftsman and figured I might never really be able to paint. I had some good teachers who had no such notions and forced me to do both. I'm glad to have gotten rid of the label- it was functioning as little more than an excuse for me.

I think the trouble is that whichever of the two roads (there are more, of course, but for the sake of this discussion I'll leave that alone) you start out on, you don't remember your initial stumbling as much because there was just general art stumbling. It was difficult to just get anything right. Then you make some headway, and to switch gears you have to put that headway aside temporarily, which is something we don't like to do. For the first few years with those teachers, I always had it in the back of my head that if they would just let me draw I could make it so nice so quickly! But in the end it was worth it to hold back.

[Blue]

I don't think i fit one or the other, but rather a bit of both. I think for most people (non-professional) they don't become specialists yet, just work on one style then move to the next. I did a lot of line drawings years back, but recently i do a lot of painting with mass. For me it is just a learning process.

[DavePalumbo]

The general goal ought to be excellence in both though. Sure, we probably all naturally favor one or the other, but an excellent painter really should be competent at both.

[HunterKiller_]

I don't see why one would want to stick one of those labels on themselves.
Strive to be the best at both.

an excellent painter really should be competent at both.
I agree with that one.
I think it's fair to say that a brush is harder to use than a pencil, and colour is harder to use than just line.

[Elwell]

Everyone may already know this but I have never seen it stated anywhere.
Never read Vasari, have you? ;)
This has been a recurring theme in art history for the last 500 years or so (Florence vs. Venice, Ingres vs. Delacroix, Academics vs. Impressionists, etc, etc).
Just because it's an old idea doesn't make it a bad one, though. For those poo-pooing it, Nyx isn't saying that one mode of thought is better than the other, or that they are mutually exclusive, simply that the difference exists, and it can be useful to be aware of that.

[otis]

They are pretty much the same thing to me. One just uses a larger brush. :)

[Nyx702]

dose: If it's a useful label to help you go forward, use it. If you find it stifling or are using it as an excuse, get rid of it.

Very good point!

You mentioned that to switch gears you have to put that headway aside temporarily? Why do you think that is? Wouldn't it be more productive to expand on your progress and squeeze every last drop out of it?

DavePalumbo: I agree whole heartedly! but...like Elwell said...

HunterKiller_: Yes! I think it's fair to say that a brush is harder to use than a pencil that is exactly my point! "you think." To some other people the brush may click

Elwell: nope...never read it...but i just bought it on Amazon! Thank you for defending me. That is what I I tried to get across.

otis: Ha! that is awesome...but don't you think the process is different? Do you start a drawing the same way you start a painting?

[funfetus]

At least for me, this is totally true. I struggle and struggle to do "speedpaintings", and nothing good ever comes of it. I wish I could just put down blobs of color and chip away at them, but it never seems to work. I still try, because I think it's probably important, but starting with the linework is just SO much easier for me.

Of course, maybe it's because I have about a 15 year head start on drawing. :)

[DavePalumbo]

Nyx isn't saying that one mode of thought is better than the other, or that they are mutually exclusive, simply that the difference exists, and it can be useful to be aware of that

understood, but I think it's dangerous to think too much about what box you belong in (or think you belong in a box at all). Thinking too much about it can actually stifle development in my opinion. Being aware that you should improve your draftsman or painter skills is good, but too much "I'm this category" or "I'm that category" thinking can cement itself in a person's mind to the point that they just say "well, I don't do that other thing well, but that's because I'm a ______. That's just how it will always be." My opinion.

[Nyx702]

Oh I very much agree! It's comparable to say thing that you are a "goth" or "emo" and not talking to the "jocks" or "preps." It's immature and you miss out on so many experiences.

For a artist marketability I think that he or she really need to be great at one thing in particular though. And while doing some experiments outside of your comfort zone is great, I think it should only enhance what the artist is already good at...

Keeping in mind that I am thinking of mid-level artists. Pros and masters can of-course do what ever they want!

[otis]

Do you start a drawing the same way you start a painting?

Nyx,

Pretty much. Just scribbles and strokes. :teeth:
Somtimes it 's just faster to work with a bigger brush.

[Anid Maro]

As others have replied, I believe thinking in terms of "Draftsman or Painter" is too limiting (although if labels help, go ahead).

For example, by the definitions given I am certainly a "Draftsman", I love linework and make it the strongest feature in my work. However I do also enjoy color, a more painterly trait.

Furthermore, though I'm a fan of linework, I prefer flowing "organic" lines to "mechanical" lines. I hate drawing buildings (or artificial objects in general) unless I can stylize them with non-technical lines. In short, if I have to break out the T-square, triangles, and templates I am one unhappy artist! :)

I think a better way to look at it is instead of pigeonholing yourself you should evaluate what your strengths and weaknesses are and how you can play to them. It's really the same basic concept as whether or not you're a "draftsman or a painter", but it gives you the freedom of not limiting yourself to the definition of a painter or draftsman.

Furthermore, the idea of being either/or seems to insinuate that you should choose what you're best at and forgo your weaknesses. In addition to appreciating your own strong points one should also shore up their weaknesses in order to broaden their own ability. That goes quadruple if you plan to do art commercially.

[jim b]

the draftsman and the painter are both painters, the draftsman just takes a more linear approach to painting. even if you dislike the label, when you sit down to do a finished piece, i think most people are either going to start with a drawing underneath, or they are going to start applying paint directly to the canvas.

[The Red Skull]

I enjoy most of what's been said so far.

I think the label is certainly useful for low leve-mid level artist who are still discovering what art has to offer and are still exploring the many different avenues that they can take to express themselves.

Personally, I fancy myself as a draftsman. For the longest time i've done nothing but pencil work. Whenever I attempt to do a painting, I find myself going around in difficult circles because I approach it with a draftsman mindset. If I were more of the professional, I would have a better knowledge of exactly where and how to blend the two. Oh well...

Categories are useful to use. Sure, everyone wants to do away with them but thats something that easier said than done.

On a different topic, for fear of distracting from the topic, does anyone have suggestions on how to approach a painting? I'm still pretty new in many respects.

:wink:

[chaosrocks]

*raises hand*

I read Vasari
not as many lies as Cellini.. but a good read nontheless

its a silly dichotamy to draw. because it all amount to ability to express..


as for a way to go about painting, read Hawthorne.. changed my whle way of thinking

[Chris Bennett]

They are pretty much the same thing to me. One just uses a larger brush. :)

I think that sums it up nicely. People tend to think of 'drawing' as something to do with thin lines. It isn't. Drawing is organisation - wether it be of thin lines or thick, monochrome or colour. When someone feels they can draw but not paint, they are really saying that they are not comfortable with the extended means that 'painting' posses.

[Nyx702]

Wow, really insightful.

When someone feels they can draw but not paint, they are really saying that they are not comfortable with the extended means that 'painting' posses.

This really makes me think....

[Chris Bennett]

Wow, really insightful.


This really makes me think....

Make sure you do it using your 'right brain' though!

[Katfayheirti]

When someone feels they can draw but not paint, they are really saying that they are not comfortable with the extended means that 'painting' posses.

What if someone feels they can paint but not draw? :(

[Chris Bennett]

What if someone feels they can paint but not draw? :(

It's the same, only the other way around. Very simply put, with 'painting' shapes are made and implied by tonal areas or varying geometry. With 'drawing' (as in making marks with thin lines) shapes are made by putting lines down that trap areas that are the tone of the surface you are working on (forget 'shading' for the moment). Since this doesn't have a tonal value it involves a degree of abstraction, a sort of suspension of disbelief in the value-less shapes and what they stand for. It's a question of adjustment to more limited means.

[Main Loop]

What if someone feels they can paint but not draw? :(

then they're probably not as good of a painter as they think they are... ;)

but what does it really mean to be a "painter" or a "draftsman"? Material of choice? Approach? Depending on how deep you think of it, or how you think about it, there should be no difference, yet when you actually do think about it, there is... What that exactly is, I cant really say..