Under Promise, Over Deliver

[danielh68]

Hi everyone.

I'm just curious to get some input on this issue. It started from a thread on the board. Since I didn't wish for it to be interpreted as a flame, I decided to post it here.

I'm always a bit perplexed by the way some high-caliber artist couch their words. I've noticed on several occasions phrases like:

1. Here's something I whipped out
2. This sucks
3. Not much, but here it is....
4. Here's a little something I did

the list goes on....

And, in all these cases, the work is exceptional. So are such phrases stemmed from low confidence or false modesty?

I don't mean to start a war, because I think the above pieces (this was in regards to the thread I was viewing) are of an exceptional level. However, the barscene looked like it encompassed many hours of work....far from "a little something."

If I was targeting this piece alone, I would understand people posting " Dude, it's just a few words relax about it". However, as mentioned, I see plenty of spectacular artist's post amazing work and then insert some sort of contradictory or self-deprecating remark. As usual, he/she will get a dozen responses stating something like, "You think this sucks? This is awesome! I could never do this in a million years. You're GOD!"

Doesn't this seem like a set-up for gratuitous praise?

[thomasaurus]

I think it is every artist's responsibility to be hard and very critical on thmeselves. Thats the drive to push harder. If we didnt do that, there wouldnt be a reason. We would all be too satisfied to try harder.

I doubt people say that stuff to get attention. If an artist needs people to tell them there great, then thats just pure bullshit.

[J.Peckham]

no matter how "good" you are, there is always someone better, and if there isn't there will be soon. i think modesty is mostly inevitable, especially when it comes to people who spend their spare time alone staring into a computer screen. :)
JKP

[thomasaurus]

doodyouhavejustsummedmyentirelifethnxsomuch

:chug:

[symantix]

What would you expect them to say? "Here's an awesome piece of work that I did" :D or "This is my latest masterpiece, it totally rocks." ;)

[Michael_H]

If I ever make a comment on my own pieces, it's usually one of those. Mine stems mostly from low confidence, as I've gone through life being told I'm not as good as others (in both art and general things)

I was never very popular.

If I really like the piece, I usually say that "I'm kinda fond of this one."

[danielh68]

symantix, that's funny. But, no, I don't expect them to say that. But why not say " I worked 12 hrs on this piece, overall I feel good about, but something about the lighting just bothers me. Any pointers?" As opposed to, "Here's a little something I whipped out";when, in reality, it's a piece rendered at a professional level that obvioiusly took countless hours to accomplish.

I thinks it's fine for a newbie or amateur to use such terminology ( such as SUCK, GARBAGE, etc) , because they're a blank slate. However, there comes a point where the artist's progresses beyond crayola drawings to acquire the fundamentals skills of good drawing: value, line, color etc. Unfortunately, for some, I don't think the rhetoric advances at the same rate. I could more easily buy this routine from someone who had very limited exposure and wasn't connected to the net, because they would have few ways to benchmark themselves. However, if you're connected, through the sheer act of comparing, I think you could generally deduce your artistic standing.

[pconsidine]

Man, it's totally natural. Yes, the pieces show evidence of a lot of time and energy. But how much would it hurt to say "Here's something that I really think kicks ass" and then have a whole host of flaws pointed out to you? It's just self-defense and all creative people do it.

Besides, when you look at someone's art, all you can see is the end result. You can't see all the things that the artist wanted to accomplish but couldn't or didn't.

As long as you don't take it personally, then there's no harm in it. As you say, it's not as if you really believe they just whipped it out in a few minutes or anything like that. If you know that a lot of work went into a piece, then you should be reassured that, with as much hard work, your stuff can look as good.

But that's just my 2¢.

[tbone28]

I thought I was a good artist. At least that is what all my friends would say, but then I found places like this and other forums that I have come to realize that I do not have a clue. Ok I have somewhat of a clue.

But I think I would be someone that COULD say that but people here may agree with me so I will not wager that bet.

I honestly think it depends on the person. Some are liars and think there stuff is good, others appreciate others work more than there own and don't see it to match up.

Also, when people say those things, I think they have certian really good artists in mind that will be reading it. Because quite frankly I don't think they will care if someone not as polished or good as them answers back with praise. They are looking for the good artists that they aspire to and want to be more like.

[danielh68]

tbone28 & pconsidine those are great points. Well, considered.

BTW, tbone28, I too thought I was a good artist in my real world local until I went online and became a frequent visitor to boards such as this. Seeing so many great pieces of art world-wide made my own artistic stock plummet. And, I don't say this from an emotional level, but rather an objective one: I had a lot learn in terms of various lighting schemes, color and subject matter. With that in mind, I had no intention of changing the context of my posting, such as "This sucks and I deserve to die" when posting in a thread where the artists are of a higher level then myself; or, "Hey, this is a little something I scribbled while working on a cure for cancer" when posting to a thread that exhibits artists of a lower caliber. If an artist desires a constructive response about his work, then he should frame his words in a constructive manner...not one that attempts to pander to the viewers emotions.

On the other hand, maybe I'm just an insensitive cold-hearted bastard.

As, a reminder, I don't feel this to be an extremely important issue. It's just something I notice occasionally; and, at times, with some predictability.

[mcotie]

I may be at fault in this area at times for saying "Whipping out" or something like that. The reason I say that is because: well I do. I know that each piece that I do I don't spend the time on it that I would like to, so therefore; almost all of my work, especially freelance stuff, is "whipped out". I whip it out as fast as my arthritic, busted-ass, ex-mechanic, knuckles will allow me to. But you have a good point.

It is really disgusting to start reading a thread and the first few words you read are " here is my crappy drawring I did today". I usually don't even look any further. Just post the damn thing and let us tell em it sucks or not (ha just kidding) But posting it without saying anyhting is just as gnarly as dissing yourself in the intro.

Anyway... good discussion.

Mitch

[el coro]

shiiiittt.... i'm very guilty of saying all of the phrases you've mentioned in my posts. i can only offer the excuse that i am my own worst critic, and i'd say 80 percent of the work i post up here isn't up to my own standards, so in my opinion, it does suck. i also work in a haphazard way where i stumble blindly and very aggressively through my pieces, i often settle for the easiest solution and rarely noodle or rework areas, so i do whip them up in a way. i think alot of artists are guilty of these things, so that's how they see it. i'm certainly not fishing for compliments when i post shit, and while its always nice to hear peoples appreciation for my work, i kind of think presenting it negatively would bring a more critical eye, so as that i might get feedback about the flaws of said piece. i'm not sure if i'd even qualify in the upper eschelons of talent on this forum, so my comments might not even be valid, but i think a certain level of self depreciating humor helps show artists that we're not all sure of ourselves and our abilities, and we're alot more alike than we think. ...my two cents-c36

[Prometheus|ANJ]

I'm very rarely happy with what I do, especially just after finishing when I'm still blind to the painting as a whole, cuz I've been staring at it for hours and find it very boring. At that stage I'm too busy analyzing the components (and looking at it upside down) and thus I can't really appreciate the painting. There's always an annoying detail you don't know how to fix and you feel like it's ruining the entire painting!
Aslo, since I'm very used to seeing my own type of stuff and thus I do not find it very interesting. I'm terribly lazy too, I know I could do much better if I spent more than a few hours on my paintings. There's soo many things adding up. But there's also the psychological aspect like someone pointed out. If you start with bad it can't get worse.

[danielh68]

Those are all really interesting comments. It makes me wonder what type of companions artists are attracted to, considering physical beauty already a given. Judging from the above comments, artists seem pathologically passionate about their work to the point that self-criticism warps their objectivity. Having a relationship with such a person must be complicated. So, again, I wonder if artists on this board have spouses, girlfriends, boyfriends, etc. that are grounded in pragmaticism or, instead, lead a life blurred in similar self-doubt?

[tbone28]

Yeah, I think that is true when choosing who to spend our time with. I know that my wifes empistimology would favor a more pragmatic view. Where as I tend to take a more empirical point of view.

Though I think it depends heavy on context. Perfectionism can create great work or no work at all.

[spiraleye]

Well, I post with disclaimers because I know what's that there are severe flaws with the piece and because I don't want to come off sounding like a jerk or stuck up. Nothing worse than a guy who thinks he's the shiznit when he's got more artistic problems than ILM two weeks past a deadline.

I don't want to be that guy. Maybe also, I'm pandering for some critiques. Some people don't want to crit other people's stuff because they think it will hurt the artist's feelings. I want a new one ripped with every picture so that I can learn. Speaking of that . . . anyone here want to crit the afroman thing I finally finished? Could use some crits . . . .

Moving on from the self-promotion. Ugh. :rolleyes: at myself.

[mcotie]

Ha ha danielh68, a complicated relationship, you can't even begin to fathom. Just ask my wife of 13 years. That is one hell of a woman. And as a matter of fact she is very Left brained, and analytical, non-artist. It balances things out. It's also a good formula for cool kids.


Mitch

[Ant4d]

after watching the picture you are painting those countless hours you can't see anything else but some technical pile of crap.

[danielh68]

"more artistic problems than ILM two weeks past a deadline.", funny analogy, spiraleye.

mcotie & tbone28, yeah I'm in the same quasi yin/yang relationship, too. In college, she did my Alegebra and I did her creative writing assignments. We're opposites, but we compliment each other. In the past, I never had any luck dating women with the same artistic bent. It seemed like there was always uneccessary drama. Plus, I always thought they were flakes. Of course, this is a sweeping generalization. They probably thought the same of me as well.

[el coro]

haha, yeah, my girl is definitely the yin to my yang. i've never had any interest in dating an artist, as i'm crazy and manic enough for two people. she saves me from myself, keeps me grounded in reality, and makes me take out the trash alot. i guess you could say that she's kind of like my mom, except younger, and hotter, and i have sex with her. she is fairly creative, though, and i encourage her when she wants to make a bookcase or coffee table. i think shes got a little artist inside her, and it doesnt bother me, but if she was a painter, i probably would have killed her years ago.

[R_M]

Originally posted by el coro

i guess you could say that she's kind of like my mom, except younger, and hotter, and i have sex with her.

euuuuugggghhhh :barf:

[Lono]

this has transformed into an interesting conversation.

it seems like a common thing for artists to spend the first half of there lives trying to blow a huge whole in there universe and then to keep it from leaking they spend the rest of there lives trying to plug it up with a woman.

-Lono

[pconsidine]

Jeez, if you want to get into the topic of what kind of partners artists wind up with, that's a whole messy ball of puke-colored wax right there. I consider myself extremely lucky to have found a wife who is extremely creative, but into her own stuff. I'm a draughtsman and screenwriter; the wife is an artisan (paper craft). It gives us something really important in common, but doesn't mean that we're butting heads over anything.

Frankly, it's not easy spending time with someone who spends most of his time thinking about things that don't exist. In the wrong context, that could get you thrown in the funny farm.

[tyboogie]

so you guys know real live girls huh?

personally i stopped believing in them years ago

[Marko Djurdjevic]

Haha!

el coro, I know what you mean, I'd kill my partner too, if she was an artist. To be honest, I could not even think about dating with a girl, that is into art as well, just because I can't stand talking about art all day long. When I wan't to talk about art I come to places like these, or talk to artistic friends, but when I talk to girl, I don't want to spend a minute talking about my work. There are so many things out there, that matter so much more, than some shitty illustrations or paintings of mine. Looking back, I always had very rational and steady girls around me, dreamers and emotional girls are not my taste. They would only be mirroring my excentric lifestyle;)

Marko

[Landmate]

And, in all these cases, the work is exceptional. So are such phrases stemmed from low confidence or false modesty?


If you think your "the shit" then you won't grow.

[danielh68]

Hi, Landmate. I'm not sure if you are referring to "you" as "me" or the populous in general. It's a little ambiguous. If you mean "me" directly, then, by all means, I'm not "the shit". If, somehow, you thought I implied that, then my initial post was taken out of context.

However, that's an interesting question you pose: "If you think your "the shit" then you won't grow."

I feel it's possible for one to produce "shit" and also exude a "shitty" attitude and, still, have their "shit" protrude to higher levels.

Modesty, although inherently self-critical, does have characteristics that safeguard the artist from degrees of public criticism. However, if the artist chooses the path of cockiness or "the shit", then they're completely vulnerable to public criticism and deserving so. Along with that comes incredible pressure to grow and surpass the artistic level he/she achieved before. For instance, I always thought Picasso and Dali were vain and arrogant individuals throughout their life, yet they still manage to grow creatively.

That's just my 2cents.

[Landmate]

ye, the generic "you".

if one thinks he is awesome, then what pushes him to get better.

[danielh68]

the generic "you" --whew, sigh of relief.

Concerning, your question about "thinks he's awesome"...hmmm...I guess, it could be divided into two personalities:

1. One who thinks he's "awesome", and the rest of the creative community fails to appreciate his self-promotion; since, his work in reality is far from awe-inspiring.

2. One who thinks he's "awesome" and the rest of the creative community generally agrees with him regardless of his arrogance.

The artist in the first example is probably doomed. He probably thinks he "awesome" at a great deal of other things as well. In any case, you're right, he'll never grow because he doesn't see room for improvement. He's perfect in an imperfect world...your basic socio-path.

The artist in the second example, however, can still grow. His definition of "awesome" is based on the crowd's response...not necessary his own. Sure, he may act coy or he may grin as he polishes his fingernails across his flannel shirt, but he's driven by crowd recognition. This feeling is empowering. He may be a jerk, but he's got respect; therefore he'll do anything to maintain his stature...that's what "pushes him to be better".

[Gezstar]

Heheh interesting topic. My girlfriend's main input into my art - and this is absolutely true - is that I should use more pink in my colours :D

i.e. she's not really into art. But she is incredibly supportive of my low-income-ass.