Faith...

[Magic Man]

Are any of your Christian, or Muslim, or Buddist or some other type of faith?

I'm just really curious, I've never been the most religious person, I've been a catholic all my life, but I never really practiced, I only went to church when forced and I would have considered myself an aethiest until recently.

My parents have started going to an evangelistic church and I've heard about all the singing and over-the-top sort of stuff that goes on in these places and I was a little bit unsure of it all. They did however seem to get a lot happier than I've ever seen them, they seem content and happy for the first time ever and their worries seem to have disappeared and a whole lot of good things have happened to them since.

Now, I'm usually more than a little skeptical when good things happen like this, I'd even put it down to simply a more positive outlook on life causing more doors to open. Then I thought, maybe thats the power of strong belief, the entrusting of one's way in life to an external unverifiable (by all our scientific means) source.

There are chapters in the bible which say that the good things you get are blessings, and the bad things you get are teachings and tests for the soul. Or they could also be viewed as a convenient way of saying why god doesn't interject to stop bad things. Then again, belief in god has in many hard times given courage to the weak and allowed them to perform bravely in the face of unfathomable terrors, whether God is real or make belief, there is no questioning His ability to affect those who believe in him...even if he is merely a creation of mankind.

One of the troubles I feel that we have in our society is apathy and cynicism, they've both become by way of popular media "stylish" traits, and as much as I'd like to believe I am above all that nonsense, I have to say I am more than guilty of many of the same things I loathe.

Over the past couple of weeks, I've decided to give my faith its first true go, to let go of my fears and worries and to entrust my fate to a greater being. And it is not so much whether He exists or not, but the fact is, my worries have gone down, I'm more positive and I feel more at peace practicing many of the moral teachings of the bible - not bitching about people, practicing temperance, etc.

For the first time in a great while, I've felt truly refreshed and optimistic about the future - and the thing is, even being the analytical scientific minded person that I am, I think I will continue to believe in a benevolent God.

Thoughts, personal stories? I know this isn't a usual topic for the lounge, but hey, there's all sorts of stuff floating here so...

m

[Jason Rainville]

Agnostic I suppose, but was raised french catholic (well roman catholic, but with some added cultural flare I suppose)

Even though I don't believe, I still go to church on chrstmas to make papa happy. It was nice though, because with the right priest, you don't have to believe in god to know how the idea of god helps;

The priest went through a bit of a speech, the idea of it was 'how do I make this christmas joy my own' He said that JOY stood for Jesus. Others. You;

IE: Jesus and others, BEFORE you. That's how to make that joy your own. Even if you take jesus out of the equation (OY) you still have others being thought of before yourself. Nice speech, guy is really festive too (from nigeria, I suppose they don't have too many somber traditional french services there) and everyone loved it.

[Justin.]

Magic Man, this put a smile on my face =)

I personally have some of my own beliefs...

I don't take so much a "Low-key approach" to Christianity (as many people would call it), but I just choose not to shove my beliefs in other people's faces. If I were to be as christian as I wanted around here... I think people would hate me. It isn't so much the fear of people hating me, but I wouldn't want someone with Muslim beliefs always posting "And may Allah Bless you!" after every post, because I am not Muslim- the same goes for "God bless ya dude". I might post that in Mr. Visions' sketchbook or something, but not in Marko's or Androids or someone who I know is an atheist.

This is more of a personal ramble, so don't bother reading it-
But honestly, almost every day I look at the sky, watch the clouds and the sunset and the colors and stuff all around us, and I think it's amazing anyone could be an atheist. Some atheists (the more radical ones, mind you) believe science is the bane of religion- if science can explain it, God didn't make it- is sort of their mind set. Einstein, Newton, Plato- they looked at science as a way of explaining God's creation, not disproving it- and when I look at the sky, at GIANT MASSES OF WATER just sitting there floatin above our heads, and looking at things pretty like flowers and things as gigantic as mountains, and things that sound as nice as birds or rivers- Just looking at our SKIN, at how complex we are as beings- it just helps me to affirm my faith in God. I mean- we, as creators ourselves, alot of us tend to look at things scientifically, technically- and I can't believe there are people who can paint like Flynt and Dobsky and Whitaker- and there are still people who don't believe in any kind of Higher being. I had always imagined artists would be more religious than atheist, though I guess I was wrong there =\.

Alot of times I imagine what humans would be like if we were colorblind. Someone would come up with this radical idea of color, and nobody would believe them, even though it was ALL OVER THEM, it WAS THEM, It was IN FRONT OF THEM. But because they COULDN'T SEE IT, They didn't believe in it. But it would make things look so much better.

One of Android's portraits said something like "I was thinking about God today.. about the existance of an infinite being, and my mind was blown." I haven't heard anything of Android and religion since though.

[JERI]

I guess you can say I pay lip service to my Catholic church. I don't believe in the supernatural, but I still enjoy going to the mass every Sunday to meet my friends and worship with them.

I probably should've discussed this with my priest by now, but I kept putting it off.

[Justin.]

enjoy going to the mass

From what has been told to me by most catholics I've met, this is the most ironic statement I have ever heard. :D

It think it's sort of funny that you enjoy the worship and things with your friends, but don't believe in the supernatural. Alot of the times people like to believe in God, but not worship him.

[2b BOY]

I'm Roman Catholic as well. I think someone who goes to mass, and doesnt worship still benefits from being around a community. Like someone else said, having the right priest helps make things interesting. Before confirmation we had to write an essay on what we think god is. To say it simply, the brother was rather surprised, plus he liked it. I am an agnostic though, and I think I dissapoint a couple family memebers, but it doesnt bother them to much and I don't really care. I share Jeris story.

[Shamagim]

You don't have to beleive in a higher being to be emphatic tho. Being agnostic, atheist, etc doesn't make you a bad person...And beleiving in any of the known religions won't make you a good person either.


I'm personally amazed about how increible this planet is, how complex everything came to be, etc. But I've always thought that saying that god created it all diminishs it. Of cource people beleiving in god would strongly disagree....And I don't mind :).

The one thing that bothers me is the fact that atheism is a labeled, organized group that it's against religion. By all means it should be called antitheism...and organizing into a flag against other religions makes it lose the point of not having a religion.

But "god"?...personally I don't buy it...I could pretend I do, but that's not the idea.

[NicoRaven]

Little personal rant and rabble.

Faith......

Faith is defined as a the assured expectation of things hoped for yet not precieved (thats how I learned it). Meaning that you expect it to be true despite having evidence to prove that it is fact ( by relation true).

All my life I've been cursed with a very scientific mind. Not so much a feeling one. This one is certainy different, I was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. 22 out of 23 years. Currently Inactive. The conclusion I've drawn thus far is that people choose what they have faith in. Choose what they want to believe beyond the defined Physical Laws. Faith is the subject more so then God or "worship". A sort of cost/benefit analysis of Religion in general (For those who choose a faith late in life). Most of us are turned on to a particular religion when we are young by parents, or relatives. Few young people choose God themselves intially. Faith is a cultivated aspect of religion it isn't developed rapidly but through analysis of good or bad events that happen because of ones faith or lack there of.

Scientifically speaking prayer, faith, belief in a Higher Being or a Supreme 'Caring' Being has been PROVEN statically to improve physical, emotional, mental, and social health. You could say it's healthier to Believe than not to.

The Problem is with the Selfish Mind. I feel that the individual belief system falls into one or two catorgories. Believers and NonBelievers. If i was say that i healed a man's cancer with only a touch and I told an Atheist christian and a Jew. Neither would believe me.

But tell the story of Miracles of Jesus or Hanukah when ceremonial oil (one days worth)lasted eight days longer then. The Atheist wouldnt believe me, however based on faith alone the Jew would. Why his/her personal belief system Allowed them to do so. Faith here is purely mechanical. Faith becomes very curcumstantial because "supernatural forces" are active in the times the Bible was written and aren't TODAY.

I definitely think that there is a measurable ruler in the positive aspects of faith. But all to often one is reminded of the limitations the human mind has in acting in a way that is pleasing to their "Sovereign"

Many Atheists have a overall feeling that their fate is in their hands not the hand of a invisible omnipresent being.

For now I feel like staying away from Organized Religion in general. For so long I felt so forced, I grew tired of the constant guilt trips.

[romance]

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-harris24dec24,0,3994298.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail

The link above has some great answers to some of the misconceptions about Atheism.

[seba_boi]

I'm a Roman Catholic... I used to volunteer in my local church... And just recently, I attended a Life In The Spirit seminar that was really inspiring... I'm with JUSTIN to not shove my religion in other's faces... This might sound corny, but living a good Christian example is just as effective as preaching to others... Yup, that's corn for you...

[blanquish]

I hear a lot of catholics in the same boat as Jeri who's idea of church is simply a traditional thing, to meet up with friends etc, but the idea of worship has diminished from why they go to church.

I think my faith( as a Christian) comes from the amazing things that have happened like the prayers that have been answered, not from the stories or the Bible etc.
But I do believe that faith in something can lead to a richer life, but thats not to say someone without faith cant lead a fulfilling life.

[Jabo]

Well, I've been baptized evangelic but with hindsight, I'm more of an atheist, don't belive in a god or a higher power. But that doesn't exclude the thought that belief does do good things and increase positive thinking. As you said, many people have been encouraged by faith and by belief in god and that's a really good thing concerning belief.

Belief isn't limited to a belief in a certain god, it's always faith in yourself and what you make out of it. Over and out.

[max xiantu]

I would consider myself a Devotional Nondualist. Meaning I don't accept the dualistic illusion we call reality and I'm devoted to the loving, compassionate, unified single source. Some may call it God, Allah, the Absolute, but I don't believe that it can be anthopomorphised. I believe that we are both cause and effect of it, because when this temporal illusion is stripped away, it simply IS. When we simply ARE, we have no fears, doubts, anger etc and remain joyful and loving, which are the highest ideals from any religious or spiritual viewpoint (and I suspect even some Atheists and Material Reductionists share this idea). Faith is the belief without physical proof that we are perfection at the core and the egoistic survival mechanisms that spawn the world's negativity as well as internal conflicts are only products of a linear illusion. With faith we can lift the veil of maya and become what we truly are.

[Gnosis]

I'm a nihilist.

Hemingway said: "All thinking men are atheists."
I think Hemingway was quite right.

[le capitan]

i have no religion. i dont know if i believe theres a god or higher power or not. One of the main annoyances i have of some religions and people is the belief that you have to follow a certain mold to go to heaven or else you're damned. If you're not with us you're against us type of beliefs.

I feel strongly that anyone can be a good person under any religion or lack of a religion, any race, sex, way of life, etc, etc.

oh and congrats magic man. im glad you've found some happiness. :)

[dfacto]

Eastern Orthodox Christian technically, but I'm an atheist. Technically agnostic, but I lean so far towards atheist that I might as well call myself that.

I never found the religion thing to be anything but a chore my parents put me through on some religious holidays and when I look at the world I see a big giant beautifully complex machine that just runs itself. Works for me, complies with the physical laws we have discovered and doesn't require me to take any real leaps of faith in relation to 2000 year old texts.

Dunno, I guess I'm just not very spiritual. I am struck by a feeling of majesty and awe when viewing reality sometimes, but I just don't feel compelled to credit a God with it.

[Magic Man]

Hey guys, I've been reading the Artist's Way, its a cool book about higher creativity and getting past mental blocks, and a large part of it is that art is a spiritual path and that God is a large part of it.

However, the author then goes on to say that God doesn't nessesarily have to be that old archaic version, God could simply be an acronym for:

Good Orderly Direction.

:)

[Seedling]

With all of its complexity and its imperfection and darkness, I look at the totality of the universe and see something breathtaking. I am moved deeply, spiritually by the magnitude and depth of it all. A grain of sand holds wonders for me. The compassion of my fellow humans gleams. A million million acts of everyday kindness that go on, unobserved by the masses – there is so much beauty there. We are amazing, our surroundings are amazing; the laws of nature that fuel it and hold it all together are amazing; I am humbled and moved to song by it all. Every event of darkness in our existence acts as a foil so that the light and the good stands out. Someday, perhaps I will be a good enough artist to show my fellow travelers through time how beautiful this whole experience is.

Oh, and I’m an atheist.

[Justin.]

You know, whoever wrote that article that Romance linked to sure makes a lot of generalizations for trying to dispel generalizations about atheists. He said many religious people claim that the crimes committed by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. is a product of 'unbelief' - This is a huge generalization. Several of his arguments are founded on generalizations. "Atheism is not connected to science"? That's a load of BS. This guy needs to hang out with more religious people.

He keeps saying things like "... and that doesn't Justify Jesus rising from the dead, or that he is the sole savior of humanity..." That is why it's called FAITH. That is what faith MEANS. To believe in something that is unsure. To believe in something justified and proven is to KNOW IT. Not have FAITH in it.


From the atheist point of view, the world's religions utterly trivialize the real beauty and immensity of the universe. One doesn't have to accept anything on insufficient evidence to make such an observation.
This also seems to me like a Generalization. Saying there is one single "Atheist POV" is like saying "All christians believe exactly the same thing".

No offense but he doesn't even say "Some of Them [Christians/Jews/Muslims]", or "Certain Sects of Them [Christianity/Judaism/Islam]", He just says "Them".


And I never said "People should believe in God when they look at the world", I just said "I don't know how they can deny the existence of a higher being."

And about the colorblind remark- The color doesn't represent beauty of nature, it represents God, just fyi.

[Nostradamus]

While I see what atheists fell( religion being big bad bummer), I don't quite feel that I can just say that religion is directly a bad thing, thus I would consider myself agnostic.

[Goog]

hey magic man all I can say is if your going the route of faith, it is going to be tested rather harshly someday. Im just saying be prepared so you can identify it. From what little experience I can share...Cheers mate! :D

[romance]

Justin - Some valid points. It is unfortunate that the author of the article generalized to bolster his opinion, as there are some things in the article that many Atheists may relate to and believe. I suppose we can add this article to the list of many other writings and opinions on faith that generalize to support their claims. ;)


I guess I consider myself uncertain at all times. All beliefs being individual, pushed and pulled by experience and emotion. Like snowflakes, no two alike.

[Artificial Stupidity]

[ Author's note: This is my first post, and as such I would like to greet you all :) ]

I am an Evangelic Christian, and I found my faith through study and observation a few years ago. I used to be a strong agnostic - a confused person who consumed various new-age religions - and I was desperately trying to find answers to the defining questions regarding life, the universe and everything. Then, one day, somebody recommended me to try the Bible. I scoffed at first, thinking that the Book is nothing but an old collection of factual errors and fairy-tales, but I gave it a go nonetheless. I skipped the Old Testament ( at first ), and dived into the meat of the whole charade - the Gospels.

The 'transformation' took a while. I read the Bible for a couple of months, discussed it with non-believers and believers alike, and started to gain some insight into the deeper teachings of the said tome. Certain things started to make perfect sense - the concept of sin, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the describtion of God as a God of Love, for example - and little by little I started to notice how unified and complete the Bible was. I found out that it was heavily interpretable, and as such I am not a fundamentalist by any means - but all in all I realized that the Book has endless depth. I could read it every day for the rest of my life and it would still give me new answers and insights on my death-bed. Indeed, even if you are an atheist, I would recommend you to dig deep into the Bible - it is a very intelligent describtion of human nature and life in general, if nothing else. Every little thing about our concious and sub-concious behaviour is explained - sometimes in very simple, and sometimes in more complex terms.

While I am a pretty strong believer these days, I do not rub it on anyone's face either. I try to understand every view and opinion, and leave all 'judgements' and 'decisions' to God Himself. It is not my duty to condemn people - my only duty is to love my fellow human beings, and keep my own, personal faith. :) Besides, I also believe in the strenght of actions ( rather than mere words ).

Anyways, see you guys ( and girls ) around. :) I am pretty excited about this community in general ( since I am what one would call a 'wannabe' artist ;) ).

[aesir]

I find atheists interesting because atheism is just as faith based as christianity. Science hasn't disproven the existence of a god, so I can hardly put my faith in the fact that there is no god.

[0kelvin]

For a long time I resisted calling myself atheist for that reason, aesir. I don't deny that God exists, I just see no reason to believe in him, and think that his existence is extremely unlikely. Saying that you're absolutely sure God doesn't exist is a statement of faith. But by most definitions of the word, that's not what an atheist believes. In fact, it's the lack of belief that defines atheism for most of us. We had this conversation just a few weeks ago in a different thread, with a great quote by Douglas Adams on the subject.

Whatever each of us believes, I think we can all agree with Seedling. The universe is mindfuckingly beautiful and strange and wonderful and we're all lucky to live in it.



0kelvin

[bunny]

I consider myself painfully analytical and pragmatic most of the time - so I suppose if I were to slep a label on my beliefs I'd call myself an Athiest... erring on the side of agnosticism. It really depends on how one would define "God".

[M.C.Barrett]

My personal view of the Cosmos is that we do not, cannot know anything with absolute certainty. We have overwhelming probabilities that virtually guarantee predictability, to a point, but that is not absolute. We all see a different universe, and in the existence I'm experiencing it is not important to know why it exists or why I'm supposed to be a good person. It is comfort enough for me to be aware that it exists at all, to appreciate the fact that I'm me, here, now, and perhaps my universe is my inverse looking back at me. Believing in no absolute purpose frees me to explore any path that I'm presented with, and my faith, if you'd call it that, albeit the very concept would be turned inside out, perhaps you might call it my absolute comfort, lies in the only absolute I hold: I am me, here, now.

Put in practice, it boils down to "Dont worry, be happy." You need neither permission nor a reason to be happy, it's your life. I'm always happy, always fascinated, amazed, captivated by some aspect of simply being. I'd call it nirvana if I didn't have this blasted addiction to ballpoint pens.

[Idiot Apathy]

I have my own religion, Tomotheism
We believe in the persuit of happiness and the happiness of those we choose to surround ourselves with, and uhm ... hrm that's about it.

And!

I'm currently accepting members! Romance joined in San Francisco, seriously!

Edit: Oh and Magic Man, do eeeeeeeet man! Explore it! As a member of Tomism I can tell you that happiness is all that matters ;)

[Zaknafain]

I created my own religion as well. (with the help of some friends ... we were so bored that day).
Our main god is a tuna (the DARK TUNA) and its all about beeing lazy and some really fat guy called "archie noah".
we have 11 commandments but until now only 3 were written down because the dark tuna is just to lazy...

uhh... shut up and draw.

[sweetoblivion314]

Hey Idiot that sounds just like me religion :P

seriously though. I dont worry about this kind of thing. Whether i get to heaven, ellysian fields, hell, get reincarnated, achieve nirvana etc has no bearing on my life. Im gonna be a good person just to be a good person. If i can bring someone happiness, show them kindness or change their life by doing what i do and being me thats amazing. Thats what i strive for. And all i ask of them is they pass it on. Be nice to the next guy and so on. Thats all i care about. And maybe that means nothing in the whole picture of it all. Or maybe you believe that the beating of the wings of a butterfly can cause monsoons across the world but hey its how i roll and i like it so far.

Why concern yourself with what will happen or what has happened? Its a waste of energy. Put it all into the here and now and maybe you can make a difference. And maybe trying is all it takes.

[Brendan N]

I have my own religion, Tomotheism
We believe in the persuit of happiness and the happiness of those we choose to surround ourselves with, and uhm ... hrm that's about it.

And!

I'm currently accepting members! Romance joined in San Francisco, seriously!


Yay for Tomotheism! And Brendanatheism!

Very interesting thread. I call myself an atheist because that's my lifestyle but not really my beliefs. I do believe that in (an) intelligent designer(s), but that has no affect on the way I live. I try to be a good person without the promise of heaven or the threat of hell - because I choose to be a good person. I don't fall back to religion to explain unanswered questions unless those answers can be proven with hard evidence. If there is a god, he's not going to send good people to hell just because they don't believe in his religion. And if he does he either has some explaining to do or he can shove it lol.

Something that might be worth mentioning but will get ugly if we go to deep into it - religious jokes. Many frown upon them, but I somehow find it hard to believe that God has no sense of humour and is too far up his own arse to take a little joke. Thoughts perhaps?

- d.

[Aether]

Personally im leaning more towards zen. On a sidenote though I never understood people who made it their mission to push their belief system onto others be it atheists or christians or muslims.

Bottom line is that theyre all ultimately beliefs. Find something that you can be in balance with and remember that the bad things are just as important as the good things and that there arent any universal truths, just opinions and we all know what those are like...

[corky13]

Im one of those neopaganists (asatru to be exact) but in a far morte philosophical way then spiritual. Of course i believe in the gods and/or what they symbolice but i dont feel myself "forced" to do anything so the gods may love me more. <_<

[dfacto]

I find atheists interesting because atheism is just as faith based as christianity. Science hasn't disproven the existence of a god, so I can hardly put my faith in the fact that there is no god.

I think for most, like me, it is simply a way of saying that one is agnostic but is certain enough that there is no god to the point where there is no real difference until a serious debate comes up.

It's like with religious people. They're all agnostic too, they just have enough conviction that it won't come out until their faith is tested. :)

[Seedling]

Some atheists (the more radical ones, mind you) believe science is the bane of religion-

And many religious folks believe that science is the bane of religion. Beliefs of all sorts abound in all folks.

I find atheists interesting because atheism is just as faith based as christianity.

Nope, wrong, try again.

There are two kinds of atheists. There are those who believe there is no god. And there are those who lack a belief in god. These are two very different things, and only one of them involves belief.

While I am occasionally the former, on most days I am the latter, including today.

"I don't know how they can deny the existence of a higher being."

It’s not so much that I am denying the existence of anything, but more that I’m not taking into consideration anything for which I have not found evidence. I.E. if I am going to factor a god into the picture, then I must also factor in reincarnation, Nirvana, ghosts, telepathy, aliens, and invisible unicorns. Frankly the visible and measurable world is already beautiful and complex enough for me without shoe-horning in more. If any of the above starts leaving evidence of its existence lying around, then and only then will I start to take it seriously.

I have my own religion, Tomotheism
We believe in the pursuit of happiness and the happiness of those we choose to surround ourselves with, and uhm ... hrm that's about it. And! I'm currently accepting members!

Oooh, shiny! Tell me more, please! :-)

I try to be a good person without the promise of heaven or the threat of hell - because I choose to be a good person.

Beautiful, beautiful words!

[Snuggles]

Hey Magic Man. My apologies for what's happening/probably going to happen to this thread. Was about to say, I'm really happy for you, and you've sort of found what I think religion is supposed to be about when you strip away years of doctrine and bias: Just stop worrying about the most useless crap in the world, and trust that shit's going to happen and (surprise) you can't do anything about it!

Believing in a benevolent being, especially as that's something rooted in the nature of a social creature such as us, can help us remember to just do our best and get on with life. And really, no matter what you believe...or don't, or whatever. Really, we all know that's what it comes down to is doing your best. It's, um...the best we can do.

[dogfood]

Tomotheism is very similar to Timotheism, except in the latter, everyone around Tim works on making Tim happy.




No converts, yet.

Maybe more tambourines...

[fedezz]

Alot of times I imagine what humans would be like if we were colorblind. Someone would come up with this radical idea of color, and nobody would believe them, even though it was ALL OVER THEM, it WAS THEM, It was IN FRONT OF THEM. But because they COULDN'T SEE IT, They didn't believe in it. But it would make things look so much better.

IMHO that analogy is not valid, cause color as we know it is just one of many cultural system the humankind created out of necessity (like languages and such). So you don't "believe" in a convention, you "agree" with it. That's the fundamental semiotic failure in your analogy.
Peirce ftw!!

[Artificial Stupidity]

If there is a god, he's not going to send good people to hell just because they don't believe in his religion. And if he does he either has some explaining to do or he can shove it lol.

Something that might be worth mentioning but will get ugly if we go to deep into it - religious jokes. Many frown upon them, but I somehow find it hard to believe that God has no sense of humour and is too far up his own arse to take a little joke. Thoughts perhaps?

- d.

One of the most wide-spread misconceptions of the christian God is the thought that He sends people to eternal damnation out of a whim. The Bible clearly states that He doesn't send anybody to anywhere thanks to the existence of free will - the reality which we humans chose in our pursuit to become alike to God. Sin is ultimately the only factor which separates us from our Creator, and since we are sinful from our very birth ( self-centered even when sporting good intentions, et cetera ), it is us who send ourselves to a realm where God has no practical power; all thanks to our own initial choice ( ie. the birth of free will ).

When it comes to the concept of Hell, I - myself - do not believe that it is a physical place of fire and brimstone. I believe that it is a state of mind; a choice to live a life where God isn't present. It is not an eternal place of damnation, but it certainly exists as long as a person decides to ignore God. The Bible points out that the human being has been subjected to 'pride' ever since the intervention of free will. It is very hard for a person to accept that he is an inferior, faulty being who ultimately needs God as just as he / she needs air to breathe.

Anyways, I could go even more in-depth and write an hour-long essay about my interpretion of christianity, but I'll leave it to this ( at this point ). If you have any questions, feel free to ask and I'll elaborate. :)

[NicoRaven]

One of the most wide-spread misconceptions of the christian God is the thought that He sends people to eternal damnation out of a whim. The Bible clearly states that He doesn't send anybody to anywhere thanks to the existence of free will - the reality which we humans chose in our pursuit to become alike to God. Sin is ultimately the only factor which separates us from our Creator, and since we are sinful from our very birth ( self-centered even when sporting good intentions, et cetera ), it is us who send ourselves to a realm where God has no practical power; all thanks to our own initial choice ( ie. the birth of free will ).

When it comes to the concept of Hell, I - myself - do not believe that it is a physical place of fire and brimstone. I believe that it is a state of mind; a choice to live a life where God isn't present. It is not an eternal place of damnation, but it certainly exists as long as a person decides to ignore God. The Bible points out that the human being has been subjected to 'pride' ever since the intervention of free will. It is very hard for a person to accept that he is an inferior, faulty being who ultimately needs God as just as he / she needs air to breathe.



Art. Stupidity your dangerously close to sounding preachly. And trust me I know preachly. I do agree that one personally decides on how he or she lives their lives from birth. However, I dont agree with your "hell ... it is a state of mind" belief. The bible actually says "The dead are conscious of nothing at all" How does your idea of hell fit into that?

[Brendan N]

One of the most wide-spread misconceptions of the christian God is the thought that He sends people to eternal damnation out of a whim. The Bible clearly states that He doesn't send anybody to anywhere thanks to the existence of free will - the reality which we humans chose in our pursuit to become alike to God. Sin is ultimately the only factor which separates us from our Creator, and since we are sinful from our very birth ( self-centered even when sporting good intentions, et cetera ), it is us who send ourselves to a realm where God has no practical power; all thanks to our own initial choice ( ie. the birth of free will ).

When it comes to the concept of Hell, I - myself - do not believe that it is a physical place of fire and brimstone. I believe that it is a state of mind; a choice to live a life where God isn't present. It is not an eternal place of damnation, but it certainly exists as long as a person decides to ignore God. The Bible points out that the human being has been subjected to 'pride' ever since the intervention of free will. It is very hard for a person to accept that he is an inferior, faulty being who ultimately needs God as just as he / she needs air to breathe.

Anyways, I could go even more in-depth and write an hour-long essay about my interpretion of christianity, but I'll leave it to this ( at this point ). If you have any questions, feel free to ask and I'll elaborate. :)

Well then I am sorry to tell you there are Christians that are subject to that misconception. My father insists that if you do not beg for forgiveness to the Christian God you will spend an eternity in hell, regardless of how good a person you are. I however, do not suffer under that misconception. Many if not all of my freinds here in SA are Christianand they do not subscribe to this idea.

Besides which I wasn't specifically referring to the Christian god. I, being a former Christian, have heard many different versions and many different interpratations, yours being one more. Suffice it to say, I have learned much more lessons by myself than from the bible, and Religion doesn't do it for me.

Gotta go now, be back later
ciao

- d.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

I think by informing yourself on 'how stuff works', you can make good decisions and waste less thought cycles on uneccesary escalating rationalizations/problems and non-information, and concentrate more on finding your personal spirituality/happiness.

[Moai]

With all of its complexity and its imperfection and darkness, I look at the totality of the universe and see something breathtaking. I am moved deeply, spiritually by the magnitude and depth of it all. A grain of sand holds wonders for me. The compassion of my fellow humans gleams. A million million acts of everyday kindness that go on, unobserved by the masses – there is so much beauty there. We are amazing, our surroundings are amazing; the laws of nature that fuel it and hold it all together are amazing; I am humbled and moved to song by it all. Every event of darkness in our existence acts as a foil so that the light and the good stands out. Someday, perhaps I will be a good enough artist to show my fellow travelers through time how beautiful this whole experience is.

Amen!:rendered:

Me, if asked, I guess I'm agnostic, but leaning decidedly towards the atheist side of the spectrum. The one thing I truly believe is that science can absolutely explain everything, that there are fundamental, unbreakable laws that govern the universe.
However, I do have some beliefs that are more based on faith than on scientific evidence. I believe that ghosts (or spirits, or whatevs) exist, because several people I know and trust have seen them, whatever they are. I believe in psychic abilities, because I feel that I have them, to an extremely limited extent. I'll think of a word or number or something right before someone says it, or randomly think of something and then come across that very thing later in the day; just very little things, but it happens too often for me to just consider it a coincidence. I also have a somewhat shaky belief in the existence of the soul, mostly because I find it difficult to think of this magical thing that I am, this conscious entity, as simply a network of neurons. I still strongly believe, though, that science can ultimately explain and/or disprove all of these things.
Things I'd like to believe, but can't quite: the existence of Bigfoot and the Yeti; that aliens crash-landed near Roswell; that intelligent alien beings even exist, at least within a distance that we'd be able to detect them through radio emissions or something; reincarnation.

[GriNGo]

Just stop worrying about the most useless crap in the world,

isn't religion just that?

And romance, thanks for the LATimes link! just excellent!

[NicoRaven]

Like I said before

Faith......

Faith is defined as a the assured expectation of things hoped for yet not precieved (thats how I learned it). Meaning that you expect "something" to be true despite having real evidence to prove that it is fact ( by relation true).

Saying bigfoot exists and the Lochless monster is alive and well could be seen in the same vein as saying a man existed who walks on water and rises from the dead after three days in the grave. For a logical standpoint.

At the end of the day your responsible if your happy with a particular train of thought no matter how much science manifests otherwise, Its a good day.

[vigostar]

I was raised catholic but, now i take tidbits from lots of religions I like and try to live according to those. Its all about faith. Faith in something that keeps you on the right path, makes you want to live another day, wake up in the morning and count your belssings that your still awake. Faith is an amazing thing... It helps many people get through extremely harsh times and the smallest reward only reinforces your faith even more. Personally, i dont buy most of the things that religion teaches us and science discredits. I believe in things like Karma just because I like the fact that after I die my spirit will continue to live in another life.

[Snuggles]

isn't religion just that?

I'd say the most useless crap is coming on forums and arguing about something as inconsequential as which beliefs you use to fill the gaps in human experience. Really, that's all this shit is is filling in the gaps of what we don't know. It doesn't matter how as long you just fill them, and realize that you can't do a damn thing about other than make things up to fill them. Even if you're an atheist, or a fake atheist, you're still using something to bridge that gap.

People like Magic Man have found faith, in one deity or another, in one form or another, that helps them focus on what's really important. You stop worrying about whether you're going to be crushed by a meteorite in your sleep, or even whether you're going to get a promotion from a fickle superior, because there isn't a damn thing you can do about it but just live the best you can, because you have faith that it's in someone elses, or something elses hands. It doesn't matter if you're religious and it's a deity or if you're an atheist and it's just all cosmic chance. As long as these institutions work the way they -should-, we should all just be living proper lives without worrying about the end of the world and being at eachothers throats for how someone else solves these problems.

There are two kinds of atheists. There are those who believe there is no god. And there are those who lack a belief in god. These are two very different things, and only one of them involves belief.

I think, technically, having a distinct lack of belief is called Nihilism, so you're technically talking about being an Atheist one day and a Nihilist the next. :o Always thought myself that the way you arrived at Atheism was the same as you choose any other religion. You gather facts, open your heart and say, "What do I feel?" If you find that you think that your definition of 'God' is buddha-like more than christian, than maybe you're a Buddhist. If you find that you simply hold the belief that the universe is Godless and ambling through space on its own merit, then you're an Atheist, and if you find a big hole that you just don't believe in anything whatsoever, you're a Nihilist.

Whereas if you get sick and tired of hearing about just one god out of the millions out there (let's say, the Christian one,) and you read in a newspaper somewhere that smart people are Atheists so you decide, "I'm an Atheist, too!" then you're really nothing at all.

[Cthogua]

...yummie, religion...when I should be working

I'm going to avoid the discussion bit for the moment and just comment about what I "believe" or "have faith in" as that was Magic's original question. As a young child I went to an Episcopal church with my grandmother, and later on as I grew older and into my teen years I went to a Southern Baptist church. My parents never pressured me to go to any chuch and my mother is a pretty hardcore secular humanist, but they always let me choose my own way. In all of that, I never really considered myself "christian" or atleast I never fully felt "on the boat" As I was fed too many contradictory ideas and told not to question them, which was completely against my nature. So I continued questioning and learning about other faiths/religions/cults and in my teen years basically decided to split from the church thing all together.

Since then I have sort of formed my own faith...very similar in description to Seedling and MC Barret's description of their facination with the world, and overwhelming sense of beauty in it's structures. I also agree that attaching some anthropomorphized "cause" to these structures is human hubris. It is amazing to look up into the sky and watch clouds boil up, to examine the complexities of weather patterns, the systems of structures that allow life to exist, and building upon that, the infrastructure of our brain that gives rise to a being that can wonder about its own exitsence, and restructure the world around it according to its will. That is it for me. My "faith" is that we are a structure within an unfathomably large system, you can even call it "god" if you like, I call it the universe, and that there are things both above and below us in that system. I see this as not ruling out the "supernatural" however I think the term is a misnomer, since if it does exist, it is neccessarily part of nature, just some part we don't yet, and possibly cannot comprehend. Perhaps there is some part of our nature that is beyond the limited dimensions we experience through our bodies. After all, conciousness is defined, even by the scientific community, as energetic activity within our brain. Perhaps our brains are simply antennae, or focusing lenses for the energy of conciousness. I draw great peace from the idea that everyone I know, everything I know, and I am part of the larger, and constant "becoming" of the universe. Everything really is One. Our conciousness is a way for the universe to become aware of itself. We are the universe and consequently our thoughts are, inescapably, the thoughts of the universe.

...sorry about the ramble, but this kind of stuff is easily my favorite subject for discussion/thought

[Seedling]

I think, technically, having a distinct lack of belief is called Nihilism, so you're technically talking about being an Atheist one day and a Nihilist the next. :o Always thought myself that the way you arrived at Atheism was the same as you choose any other religion. You gather facts, open your heart and say, "What do I feel?" If you find that you think that your definition of 'God' is buddha-like more than christian, than maybe you're a Buddhist. If you find that you simply hold the belief that the universe is Godless and ambling through space on its own merit, then you're an Atheist, and if you find a big hole that you just don't believe in anything whatsoever, you're a Nihilist.

Whereas if you get sick and tired of hearing about just one god out of the millions out there (let's say, the Christian one,) and you read in a newspaper somewhere that smart people are Atheists so you decide, "I'm an Atheist, too!" then you're really nothing at all.

Sorry, but no. My unabridged, library-sized Webster says an atheist is “one who does not believe in the existence of God; one who believes that God does not exist, and who proclaims this negative dogma.” Whereas a nihilist is defined as a member of a specific Russian revolutionary party, and the definition of Nihilism is either a follower of said party, or “doctrine of negation; the denial of all reality in phenomena; complete skepticism as to the real ground of truth or belief in religion, morals”. I am well aware of what I am, thanks, and a nihilist I am not.

[Brendan N]

Well said Seedling. Nihilism, as far as I know, has to do with attitude. Atheism has to do with belief. Or in my case, predominantly life style lol.

- d.

[2b BOY]

Oi, just for the record, Buddhism doesn't have a God. It's usually known as the religion for atheists. Haha. Anyway, the Prince who discovered a good way to reach enlightenment (Buddha as some know him, but really his name was Shakyamuna (?) Can't remember.) He just figured out a way to help people lead a good and peaceful life, and one of the quotes I hold so much that came from him was when he witnessed the answer to meditation when under the tree. He saw a Lute (guitar? Dont know what type of instrument) player being taught on a passing boat by his master. His master said "If the string is to tight it will snap, if it is too slack it will not play at all, you ahve to find the perfect balance" And buddha realised this deals with everything in life.

And, i try to live by that everyday. I still have ideas that I weigh more towards each other but I always try to find balance between any issue to offer the other side the benefit of the doubt. Which is why I'm agnostic, and I have technically call myself one because I cant prove anything either way about a god or no god. I do have an idea about god though, it may not be yours or anyone elses but I offer an explanation to people who ask all the time, I just never go out of my way to enforce it upon them.. I just open the door. If we go to extreme on either side such as atheism or christianity/islam, etc. it makes people close minded and when there is ignorance and close mindedness, there comes fear, then fear produces hate and anger, then we have violence. A self rightous christian, is just as annoying than a self rightous atheist, or any other standardized belief. Everyone has their own philosphy, I call mine twobitism. What i don't like today is the hate mongoring towards christians anyway, from many atheists (these are uaually the young ones who think calling themselves an atheist is cool anyway) I witness it so much around me. I can understand a joke but there are some who take it very seriously.

[vigostar]

2bBOY- I started to read a book on the Dali Lama and the buddhist beliefs... Its quite a beautiful belief. Although when I was reading the book I had trouble figuring out what they were talking about most of the time.. The road to enlightment... Crazy to think that you can reach a point in your life where you see things as pure as the colors in the spectrum... Although, just thinking about it makes my brain hurt.

[Seedling]

What i don't like today is the hate mongoring towards christians anyway, from many atheists (these are uaually the young ones who think calling themselves an atheist is cool anyway)

Not that I defend atheists who are obnoxious about their atheism, but it is rough on youngsters who come to the realization that they are unbelievers in a world of believers; and furthermore those believers have a doctrine of “unbelievers are bad” and “unbelievers need to be shown the truth”. If there were no theists pushing their doctrines, then there would be no pushy atheists, either.

[asoir]

Scientologist, and proud.










But seriously!

I've been interested in Buddhism, but i'm agnostic.

[Slash]

Faith, i think can be a good thing. A placebo effect or true divine intervention? i dont know, and i dont care, it can be a good thing.

Religion however leaves a foul taste in my mouth. All that has been said and done in the name of some god or another through the ages, and is still being done isnt really anything i would have any part of. I wonder where the world would have been today without religion strangling a lot of things like scientific discovery, art, medicine and diplomacy in its infancy. Perhaps its been a necessary evil to control the masses and supress human nature so we wouldnt kill each other? Or has it hindered us in our progress?

About where i stand in all this.. i dont know. I follow pretty much all of the commandments exept the first one, and I'm convinced that we're far from alone in this universe. From what i've read about buddhism i'd say i am pretty damn close to a buddhist, but i dunno. I dont believe in a one true god, but then again, there's no way of knowing unless he reveals himself is there? But if he were to reveal himself the concept of faith would disappear and it would all collapse, so he CANT reveal himself. How afully convenient. :P

[Cthogua]

Religion however leaves a foul taste in my mouth. All that has been said and done in the name of some god or another through the ages, and is still being done isnt really anything i would have any part of. I wonder where the world would have been today without religion strangling a lot of things like scientific discovery, art, medicine and diplomacy in its infancy. Perhaps its been a necessary evil to control the masses and supress human nature so we wouldnt kill each other? Or has it hindered us in our progress?


Some religions strangle out progress, some don't. However if you look into the situation what you will most often discover is that it is more about power, and the people in power desiring to remain in power. You can twist doctrine to mean whatever you like, especially if you happen to be one of the people that essentially defines that doctrine, in the case of popes and cardinals. Religions are most often a tool of oppression, however the reason for that oppression is far more worldly. Do you think we live in a world where science is no longer muzzled? Stem cell research??, which could herald a new age in modern medicine...All it took was some governmentally inforced changes to the wording of some scientific reports to perminantly muddy the water of the the global warming discussion, and thus save some people, who also happen to be the ones inforcing said wording changes, LOTS of money that would have to be spent cleaning things up. Another good one is psychedelics...all that was needed was some media hysteria, and suddenly a whole new promising branch of psychology, making legitimate progress, is shut down and declared off-limits, "cause it's....weird" The real culprit in the history of oppression is power, the desire for it, and the desire to keep it.

As far as suppressing human nature, I think it's silly and perhaps very telling that we think it is just basic human nature to kill each other. Its not, because of a very simple fact...biologically, we are pack animals that rely on each other for safety and assisstance. A pack cannot opperate if its members just randomly kill each other. Wolves look quite feirce and sound very scary when they have a little tussle, but the fact is they very very rarely kill one another, because the fight is about power, not a desire to kill.

[Slash]

We might be pack animals, but we also got the ability to reason, and with that hold grudges and crave revenge. We're not just animals anymore, and you cant say that its as simple as that. I'd like to think that killing is NOT human nature, but the ability to reason and the tools to deal a lot of damage have changed humans. Dont you think wolves would be killing each other more often if the were able to hold grudges, seek revenge and had machine guns?

[Cthogua]

We might be pack animals, but we also got the ability to reason, and with that hold grudges and crave revenge. We're not just animals anymore, and you cant say that its as simple as that. I'd like to think that killing is NOT human nature, but the ability to reason and the tools to deal a lot of damage have changed humans. Dont you think wolves would be killing each other more often if the were able to hold grudges, seek revenge and had machine guns?

Totally agreed, but when you start talking about grudges, revenge, and machine guns you go beyond talk of what our "nature" is. We are not innately wired to hold grudges and desire revenge, we have the ability to, but that has more to do with memory, and not reason. Both grudges and revenge work against reason. If we have the ability to reason than we can see that both are unnessessary and unproductive.

[young paddy1]

I'm atheist plain and simple, no belief in any god of any kind, I'm not anti god as I've been told I am in the past. I hold no feelings one way or the other as I don't believe in any god's existance.

I was raised to think for myself, make my own judgements about things and from about five years old (even when being forced to 'pray' in school, although I didn't know who to) I've never felt any need for a 'higher' being in my life or after it. I can't see this life as a rehearsal, just to see if you're good enough for an afterlife that you don't even know exists.

The free will thing always worried me, an animal has far more free will than any human. The only reason we don't see it in that way is that we have the power to take away an animal's freedom.
But you go stand in the savannah of africa without anything but the knowledge of how to get food and the idea of what a predator is (like all the other animals around you) and you'd last about an hour. Our place at the top on this planet is only retained due to intelligence and ingenuity, as far as I can see we aren't constantly buoyed up by a god, if something smarter and stronger than us turned up we'd be fucked in a heavy duty, industrial way.

It makes me happy to think like this because it's all that forces me to do new things as oftne as possible.

[Brendan N]

2bit - along the same lines of what Seedling said, I see in my community a lot more Christians antagonizing atheists than other wise. The "Either you're with Him or your against Him" rule is very popular, almost as popular as "Passion of the Christ". And this gets back to the guitar string thing you talked about, the hard edged dichotomy is far more negative than it is positive IMHO.

- d.

[Björn]

Why categorize faith?

I believe in god, but I don't belong in any church. My parents are protestants. They despise him. I don't have to prove myself and go to church every sunday in order to be in good will to him. I'd say, if he wants my faith he'll have to accept my terms.

[paberu]

I believe in dreams...



and working hard to achieve them :)

[bhanu]

I think I am searching looking for a bigger one , stronger power. I am a hindu. but I dont reallu pray. Maybe art is my god. maybe religious. Basically I dont like taking things on a platter, it feels better if Iwork fot it. So if someone sjust tells me theres god , I wont believe it , I will try ways to know about god, that is if there is one. I think that basically religions were not created because of gods , but because of men,Fear of god stops a lots of people from doing bad things , and faith in god pushes people to give their best and have hope is dire straits. Religion in my country is getting pretty much decayed. The communal violence the cold tension in different religions. I hate religion as it is now. I think the older versions before the dark ages were much better , liberal and logical. I have also done some recent about hinduism before the mughals and , What I found was a good system in religion, it helped kings rule better, it helped the governing of the people. it helped people in dealing with their personal and interpersonal problems. TO me that is religion. The polarised shit that exists in religions yodays self cannabalising. I hate it.

[m@.]

With all of its complexity and its imperfection and darkness, I look at the totality of the universe and see something breathtaking. I am moved deeply, spiritually by the magnitude and depth of it all. A grain of sand holds wonders for me. The compassion of my fellow humans gleams. A million million acts of everyday kindness that go on, unobserved by the masses – there is so much beauty there. We are amazing, our surroundings are amazing; the laws of nature that fuel it and hold it all together are amazing; I am humbled and moved to song by it all. Every event of darkness in our existence acts as a foil so that the light and the good stands out. Someday, perhaps I will be a good enough artist to show my fellow travelers through time how beautiful this whole experience is.

Oh, and I’m an atheist.

Well said, that's quite how I feel too :) (I'm agnostic though).
It's great how becoming an "artist" makes the experience even more enjoyable, day after day I'm even more amazed by every little detail I see, that I didn't notice before.... I find my amazement in trying to understand the world and being curious about everything, letting space for mystery, surprise and unknown , that gets a bit more understood little by little.

[Snuggles]

Sorry, but no. My unabridged, library-sized Webster says an atheist is “one who does not believe in the existence of God; one who believes that God does not exist, and who proclaims this negative dogma.” Whereas a nihilist is defined as a member of a specific Russian revolutionary party, and the definition of Nihilism is either a follower of said party, or “doctrine of negation; the denial of all reality in phenomena; complete skepticism as to the real ground of truth or belief in religion, morals”. I am well aware of what I am, thanks, and a nihilist I am not.

Works for me. Just a tad on the fence about the lack of belief thing. Looks like my definition of Nihilism is a bit outdated, however. My hat is off, my apologies, and so forth.

Oi, just for the record, Buddhism doesn't have a God.

Sorry about that. Most sects don't, in fact, worship Buddha as a God. (Actually I'm pretty fond of the quote, 'If you see Buddha on the road, kill him immediately,' for this reason.) It's more complex than how I put it, I'd imagine if you find you believe the precepts of Buddhism without any place for a deity, you could be a full-on Buddhist or combine elements from that and...whatever else, really. If you believe in both, you're more likely to end up doing something like grabbing Buddhism and running with it back to your own personal God's camp. It's a very popular religion for Atheists, and in recent years I've seen a number of Christian friends start to absorb Buddhism into their own practices.

Religions are most often a tool of oppression, however the reason for that oppression is far more worldly.

Far too true. For the most part, sad as it is, there're always going to be people out there with enough screws loose, or people who are just plain stupid, who will find reasons wherever they can to do horrible things.

Not that I defend atheists who are obnoxious about their atheism, but it is rough on youngsters who come to the realization that they are unbelievers in a world of believers; and furthermore those believers have a doctrine of “unbelievers are bad” and “unbelievers need to be shown the truth”. If there were no theists pushing their doctrines, then there would be no pushy atheists, either.

Agree'd, for the most part. I understand the general, raging distaste for fundamentalists and ignorant believers, as most open-minded believers feel the exact same level of distaste thanks to being made to look stupid and being told that their belief is 'unacceptable.' A lot of us wanna just scream at them as bad as many Atheists do, I'd wager. The kind of 'Christian Bashing' that gets to me, however, is when you're sitting there minding your own business in a nice conversation one way or the other, and the 'C' bomb gets dropped, and all of a sudden you're getting yelled at for how you hate gays or something, and how very weak you must be to need a deity to...well, you know the whole ninety of it. On the internet there seems to just be this lurking quandry of folks waiting to undermine any conversation wherein a belief in a higher being is mentioned. And, of course, most of us aren't ignorant enough to say we're being 'opressed' or something. We know what the real numbers are. It's just annoying as hell when some of us actually go out of our way to be understanding about this stuff.

Though I gotta say I think that fundamentalists are ultimately inevitable. Even if among the ranks of believers they were gone, they'd still be present elsewhere, too. Which means even the Atheists would still have their nutjobs trying to sway people from believing in something that makes them 'mentally stunted,' even if all the 'You're going to hell' Christian nutjobs up and vanished.

[Flake]

So, I guess I'm the only guy who clicked this expecting the hot chick from Buffy?

[BlueMech]

As much as I'm tired of discussing this as any time it comes up in the IRC we all go into, I would like to add a few things. I've recently "converted" to Atheism, previously I was agnostic, and before that I was raised non-denominational christian(which, if you must do these things, I think that's the way to go).

I honestly feel happier having done that, I have a more positive look on life. I don't have to accept stuff that in the back of my mind is screaming "Fantasy Novel!". Christian morals are largely just basic human morals. Most normal people will agree with most of the Ten Commandments, disputing only over the discriminating religion-specific ones.

I've recently been reading up on Atheism and the pitfalls of Faith. I find it so interesting after I dropped my Religion and turned to just the faith as I believed it more pure and less decayed than religion, I know see it as something similar. I personally am much happier no dealing with it at all. And as such, I don't have to worrying about living forever, no matter in what state (I most certainly do not want eternal life, neither in Heaven or Hell, to me, both are Hell). Thing about Atheism though is I don't "believe" or have "faith" that in my practicing of it, I am exempt from Heaven or Hell. The concepts merely don't apply, as far as I see it, given the evidence, no one goes.

The best thing though, is by and large I can focus on living a happy life. Besides some threads of Altruism I cannot shred and the fact I sometimes find it enjoyable, there is no real motivation for me to try and make others accept things. Some Atheists, like Richard Dawkins have different motivations and goals and I completely respect them.

Magic Man, if faith is really making you happier, then have fun! I would advise you though to avoid evangelical movements and radical churches, they're nothing but trouble. Do whatever makes you happy and if faith starts not doing it for you, there's plenty of evidence to help you shred it.

[Seedling]

Agree'd, for the most part. I understand the general, raging distaste for fundamentalists and ignorant believers, as most open-minded believers feel the exact same level of distaste thanks to being made to look stupid and being told that their belief is 'unacceptable.' A lot of us wanna just scream at them as bad as many Atheists do, I'd wager. The kind of 'Christian Bashing' that gets to me, however, is when you're sitting there minding your own business in a nice conversation one way or the other, and the 'C' bomb gets dropped, and all of a sudden you're getting yelled at for how you hate gays or something, and how very weak you must be to need a deity to...well, you know the whole ninety of it. On the internet there seems to just be this lurking quandry of folks waiting to undermine any conversation wherein a belief in a higher being is mentioned. And, of course, most of us aren't ignorant enough to say we're being 'opressed' or something. We know what the real numbers are. It's just annoying as hell when some of us actually go out of our way to be understanding about this stuff.

Boy oh boy, do I ever know how you feel. :-)

[LaPalida]

For a long time I resisted calling myself atheist for that reason, aesir. I don't deny that God exists, I just see no reason to believe in him, and think that his existence is extremely unlikely. Saying that you're absolutely sure God doesn't exist is a statement of faith. But by most definitions of the word, that's not what an atheist believes. In fact, it's the lack of belief that defines atheism for most of us. We had this conversation just a few weeks ago in a different thread, with a great quote by Douglas Adams on the subject.

Whatever each of us believes, I think we can all agree with Seedling. The universe is mindfuckingly beautiful and strange and wonderful and we're all lucky to live in it.

0kelvin, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you :) and Seedling.

I think for most, like me, it is simply a way of saying that one is agnostic but is certain enough that there is no god to the point where there is no real difference until a serious debate comes up.

It's like with religious people. They're all agnostic too, they just have enough conviction that it won't come out until their faith is tested.

Yea DFacto like some dude said (I don't remember who...) "Everyone is an atheist about every other god (or whaterver other supernatural creature) but their own ... atheists just go one god further".

Over the past couple of weeks, I've decided to give my faith its first true go, to let go of my fears and worries and to entrust my fate to a greater being. And it is not so much whether He exists or not, but the fact is, my worries have gone down, I'm more positive and I feel more at peace practicing many of the moral teachings of the bible - not bitching about people, practicing temperance, etc.

Jesus was great at promising people pies in the skies. Did you by any chance give away all your earthly possesions? If not you're more than welcome to give them to me :D. It'll make your soul feel better and give me things I need, it's a win-win ... what da ya say chap?

My advice... for whatever it's worth to you Magic Man... don't do it. Faith is a disease of the mind. Be passionate, be emotional, be compassionate, be understanding, ... but don't be irrational or unreasonable.