Forum Policy?

[brasshorsekiller]

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=70610

It looks like CGTalk has the right idea. I think it would be a good idea if CA.org could implement this exact same policy in it's 'Finished Works' section.

If that's not a possibility, maybe noobs can just look this over. The "ooh's and ahh's" section was pretty obsolete in the effort to crack down on useless/annoying comments, so maybe this will just provide some sort of thinking material for the admin here.

It sucks when people have to start new forums and such just to try to get some good critiques and thoughtful comments.

[sic1]

I like that idea, too. That will help some of the less accomplished artists perhaps by noting certain mistakes more advanced artists made. I don't know if that made any sense... but being a n00b myself - I think it's a great idea ;)

[togusa]

you r0x0rs my b0xeRs :rock:

.haha. j/k. this is a good idea. BRASSHORSE FOR MODERATOR IN 2003!!!

[Prometheus|ANJ]

I can't access that page cuz I have no account.

Anyhow,

The noob issue has been ranted about on every forum there is and not really been solved from what I can see.

The problem is that the noobs (the particulary lame ones) does not read rules, nor do they understand that they are noobs. They think that the awesome ideas and concepts they see in their minds are projected into their art scribbles. Of course they are the only one that can see the context/intention behind the image and it becomes an pointless scribble for everyone else.

Also, noobs will like to post where the more talented guys hang out to get some attention and advice, so they will come sooner or later. The pros can only comment on images where there are just a couple of things to fix. If it's just a stickman all you can say is "go practice some more".
Also, if there's too many substandard posts it can be hard to pick one to comment on, which might lead to a general reply apathy.

A forum can be quite slow with only pros though, as they are often busy with work and stuff. A certain ratio of noobs might be healthy as long as they behave and show progress.


One way to solve it might be to have a general posting area for everyone and a quality section where everyone can reply but only selected 'non-noobs' post new threads. The bar to get into the non-noob club doesn't have to be pro-level high, being above 'posting lame scribbles and homages' is ok. The mods will review new posts and see if that member is worthy the quality section.

1> Sketches, doodles and noobs.
2> Finished and quality art.

Of course quality members should post in the doodles section if they feel they did something less polished.
Since the noobs can reply in the quality section the quality members will still get their share of ego-boosting "wows" and the noobs might get a reply-reply from one of their idols.

[N D Hill]

I think we should do more to encourage forum responsibility. Everyone would enter at a noob status and only be premoted by mods based on content of posts, responsible behavior and the general seriousness they display through their art and feedback.

...Of course we don't want to go too far and have a bunch of stiffs either.

I don't know. Just my two cents.

[jmascho]

More badass people need to post more badass art AND give their thoughts.

[brasshorsekiller]

Very good idea, Prom.

That's basically what CGTalk has done. They have a specific forum where they prohibit behaviour such as posts like the following: "OMG!! U R SO GOOD! HOW Did u get good?!?:D :D :p :p :electric: :chug: :D :D :bash: :rambo: :wazzup: :rock:"




Annoying, isn't it.

The only issue I can see with this suggestion would be that some people would take offense to it, and then there'd have to be a big effort on the moderator's/admin's part to actually maintain the forum from getting all clogged with doodles and such.

We'll see. I just can't wait for the new format.

[N D Hill]

Yeah. it should be interesting to say the least.

[incognito]

since this is a thread about forum policy on noobs, and I am a noob, could you outline for me what it takes to not be flamed?

[darkcult]

you r0x0rs my b0xeRs !!!

P.S.-OMG!! U R SO GOOD! HOW Did u get good?!?


:chug:

[incognito]

hmm, so no "1337" How did you get so good stuff? Ok, but what if my stuff is horrible but looks decent to me and I post it will that be bad?

[darkcult]

incognito-OMG!! U R SO BAD! HOW Did u get bad?!?

that is how it is going to look like!

[fuyu]

Originally posted by Exo
I think we should do more to encourage forum responsibility. Everyone would enter at a noob status and only be premoted by mods based on content of posts, responsible behavior and the general seriousness they display through their art and feedback.

...Of course we don't want to go too far and have a bunch of stiffs either.

I agree with exo. :)
I think Spiraloid forum (http://cube.phlatt.net/forums/spiraloid/index.php) is more or less doing what exo said.They have few topics but each contains great advices and discussions.

[spiraleye]

You know, this is interesting. I was PMing Sumaleth over at Sijun about this a while back. I think the answer to this is something near what penciljack has got.

Granted the art in general at penciljack is fairly limited. . . but
I think the solution has three parts.

Separate users into 3 gradings--noobs, experienceed, and senior artists.

Each group has it's own section where they post. Everyone can browse all forums, upperclassmen can post in lower rooms, but not vice versa.

You have a weekly assignment that if completed by the deadline, anyone is guaranteed feedback from a moderator--this ensures that even scribble noobs can get feedback at least once a week.

To raise your grade, you submit a piece for consideration (only one submission per month or week or so) and if approved by a moderator, you upgrade.

Some senior artists will always be willing to post down to the noobs, but others will be free to post only to senior artists. AND the possibility is always there for feedback and growth for the noobs.

By the way, about the stick figures. When there are so many things wrong with a piece, the alternative to saying, "go practice" is to tell them the first fundemental thing they need to study, in your opinion. For example, I pestered Sumaleth into critiqueing a coloring job and he finally said "well, none of your values seem even close to working to me." Based on that I was able to go backand start over--the piece looked much better. Just a thought.

[darkcult]

thanks for sharing your wisdom with us NOOBs !!


:chug:


he he just kidding ,
welcome ;)

[N D Hill]

thanks for sharing your wisdom with us NOOBs !!

Now come on. We were all Noobs at some point...except me. i registered the day the forum first went up. Ask Jason! Screw you all!

[davi]

I was considering...

when someone registers to ca. they are given a few other "lesser quality" forums and some examples of what is expectable and what isn't.

I'm going to add a few new mods to the site and allow them to start completely removing the crap and marking down the names of those whos art isn't 'up to par'.

If the user continues to post noobesque art i will have to remove them from the server or see if i can just remove their posting options.

[N D Hill]

I don't know. That seems a little tyrannical to remove someone's posting rights because they're not up to par. The idea is to learn and get better. I know when i first showed up on the online art world way back when I actually thought sijun had some credability, I utterly sucked (more so than i did now). I remember getting replies from guys like Steven Stalsberg, Francis Tsai and Feeb and that encouraged me work all day at making more crappy art untill it actually started improving. But untill then I loved making crappy art and I was very serious about my crappy art and getting feedback on how to make my crappy art less crappy.

[fell]

what prom said, like a private group, just for streigh foward critiques for those super secret works that you cant post for public viewing but you still need the help... and generaly to avoid the "whoa"'s and all the smileys.

noobs will post and share, like everyone else. its the most reasanable idea i guess, and there are examples of such, davi knows what groups worked and what failed in the matter of "selection".

[davi]

Exo, The thing is that there is so many OTHER forums out there that are not topic related, i mean. I'm not going to completely crack down on non-conceptual posts, but the problem is alot of people are joining just because they think it's another art forum. This forum is focus'd around the game/movie/comic industry, anime artists will be instantly removed from that site.

[MrSmith]

if i were god this is how the forum would be organized:

1> Try-out Room. Everyone posts their "First Post Evar!!11" posts here. If its up to par (and i'm not talking pro- level, but non-noob level) then they are allowed to start threads in the other rooms. i dont think its too much to ask mods to monitor this room to pick out those good enough, but i could be wrong.

2 >the rest: just like CA is now except noobs can post replies but not start threads.

new members may join more slowly if this system were in place, but who cares? who said a forum has to be super huge. CA has tons of good talent already. nothing wrong with adding standards.


p.s. and dont give me any crap about "its art, man! you can't judge my Dragonballz fanart just because i cant draw hands! its art cuz i say its art!" You sound like such a n00b when you say that. art has standards just like everything else.

p.s.s. oh i realize this system has been tried and failed at other forums, but there is one main difference. CA is established already. It already has a large base of visitors, and new visitors are eager to join up every day. i dont think CA would suffer from an approval process, since this forum is one of the hottest art forums around.

[ChadTHX1138]

Now as far as everyone seperating themselves into catagories/rank where they can and cant post is the most rediculous thing i have ever read. A bunch of you posting HERE could get very upset when you find out that someone has deemed you unworthy...When I was starting out all i wanted was to get in with people that were far above me in thier skills, it made me feel good to be apart of that group. I am better for it.

DAVI: please correct me if i am misreading you...

Are you referring to the Big eyed looking characters? Bengal has an Anime style, Are you going to give him the boot?...
Syd Mead happened to do a lot of design for anime as well. Gundam comes to mind. here are some fine examples of Anime concept art from guys i know>>>>>>>>
http://home.earthlink.net/~thongvilay/images/Tedscape.jpg
http://www.mutineersmoon.com/images/GALLERY/130b.jpg
http://www.mutineersmoon.com/images/GALLERY/139b.jpg edited to links.

I understand some of the big eyed furry stuff can be a bit too much but they have thier place in the world too, I dont care for it too much, so ignore it if it bothers you. Dont let your ego's get the better of you fellas and quit trying to BOGART Territory. No group of moderators could keep up with everyone, and they would really hate trying to.

Do you want friends or enemies? one of the guys you help out now might help you in a bind. every action has an equal or opposite reaction. You want to be proffesional's act like it.

[davi]

Bengal isn't anime.

When i refer to anime you know what i'm talking about. Dragon ball z characters, girls with triangle jaws and sweat bubbles. Artists whom you can tell that they can't pee straight by their pencil lines.

There are people who follow in the foot steps of anime that are fantastic, bit if they are just simpley drawing stupid little anime fan art pieces, its going to be hard for me to allow it.

As i said, this isn't a MISC. ART forum, it has relation to certain industries. Furies and bunnies doesn't cut it.

I could start this without jason's permission, but i'm going to wait for his approval since he started this forum with a mind set; hopefully though he will give me the go sign.

if you have any problems with this, take it to Http://www.crapartforums.org

[brasshorsekiller]

The whole idea of this thread got twisted and changed into a discussion about the lack of concept art on the site. That's all in another thread. Please go back and read the first post, people.

[foster]

i know i have a rather liberal view on this issue and it may not be what you want to hear but i must agree with ChadTHX1138. i fear trying to judge all the work for status ratings will be a nightmare and would be wrought with inconsistencies. i think it may be a natural evolution for a forum that is popular and does give much in the way of educating those who participate, to have an influx of work and much from youth that are not that proficient yet. but labeling people to restrict their access will be subjective and could be counterproductive to the general feel of this forum.

i routinely go through the finally finished and work in progress sections. i just filter, i know certain names that are always good to see and i also like to see what the new people have to offer. when the work is primitive or skewed to a peripheral genre such as anime i just pass (or I take a second and see what there is that I can learn from). davi, i may be mistaken but did you not post a site which artist you said was "god like" that was most certainly anime. if i am wrong about this please correct me.

i like the option or at least the possibility to see all kinds of work. hey i am even doing concept work for turbine games now and i still see no clear dividing line between concept art and allot of what is posted. it all comes from the same place or will end up there.

jon

[amphex]

Davi, I cannot believe you would even suggest that.
If a system such as that was implemented here, I would be outraged, and I assure you I would not be alone. Of course its all up to the admins, like yourself, to decide on the policy of this site, but it was also the admins (Jason Manley and Android) who have preached that this site supports and nuture dedicated "noobs", and that concept art doesnt start out as such.
I am all for seperated forum sections for begginers, "Middle Class", and Pros, but certainly NOT for cutting out the former 2. Also, concept art can take up a grand spectrum of art. Who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to say that "furries" and "bunnies" are not "concept art". You may say that the art is not related to the industry, but most of the people are, including yourself, are not in the industry. Anyone can make anything, and use that as a reference for a personal modelling project, which would make it a concept right?

I personally dont post my art here because I am "not up to par", but I respect the others who do, and do not agree with them being kicked out.

PEACE

(sorry if this is big and im trying to act smart, but i tend to do that when its late and im tired. I hope you 'catch my drift' =))

[togusa]

i really disagree with keeping the status quo. Things are getting more cluttered and to many, it appears that this forum is following the path of many other forum before it - that it is beginning to fill with hobbyist and aspiring artists of lower levels. These people do need a place to post the sketch of fuzzies (or whatnot) they did during study hall and perhaps it is not here(?)

As stated on http://www.conceptart.org/about.html "The message boards will be used to help each other to further develop portfolios, as well as discuss art, get constructive critiques, and assist with employment. "

I am unsure whether general art education should be part of the mission of this forum. People should have some sort of grasp of basics or even an understanding of the terminology. I think partly what is wrong here as well is a lack of explaination... Concept Design is not just one pretty picture... There is design work and sketches and research and concept and a reason why people are willing to hire us to visualize for them. I mean it can be as simple as several descriptive words that you used to design an environment or a creature.

I believe that the forum should be broken into several tiers, general, aspiring designers, professionals. It seems that this will fit what this forum is about... It seems like it is meant for designers that are in the industry to find work and share crits/technique with each other as well as for aspiring designers to get help on breaking into the biz.

People are automatically admitted to the first tier and if they feel that they meet some sort of requirements can apply for admitance to the next tier.

I'm just tired of seeing randoming work with statements like "i did this." and having no idea why

[ChadTHX1138]

Last I looked it says Members: 4,165

Edit that many indiviuals. it will take awhile to change it to where they can and cant post in a particular forum, but it gets out of hand when you cannnot keep up with everyone. You will have a full time job on your hands, well... you arent even getting paid for it.

That just takes the fun out of it for everyone, doesnt it.

People visit here to feel good about themselves, learn and be with thier kind. Share thier work, Inspiration, ideas and philosophies. We all want to be somebody, we want to be good artists.

You all want to run around making these complex rules...Why? So you can somehow stand out above someone else who isnt as good as you, or they annoy you, or you dont get along...Ignore it. Life is too short. Art is fun, I BEG YOU PLEASE TAKE THE FUN OUT OF IT BY BEING A WET PAPER BAG!:cry:

In reference to seeing a thread or somthing irritating, i would like to quote the great Obi Wan Kenobi "These aren't the droids youre looking for...Move along"

[brasshorsekiller]

But Obi-Wan didn't say that through 90% of the movie...

[davi]

foster: i was refering to the anime fan art type things i've seen and deleted on this forum many times. black and white doodles from 12 year olds that look like they were traced right off the tv.

I'm not saying anime is a bad art form, but I will say it's the largest form of art with the worst artists. I'm a huge fan of artists like hyung, falcoon, blade, prom(at times) but it's the kids who don't have experience in art that post 5 threads at a time of random anime doodles that are ruining this forum for me and others.

it's been dicussed before about the amount of forums this site should have. i've deleted about 6 of them over time and added a few subforums.... the problem with adding so many forums is that things get so spread out.

I fear that if we split forms up in to "Pro" "amture" "noob" it would just make alot of work for the moderators and also there would be alot of "WHAT DO YOU MEAN I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR THAT FORUM, LOOK AT BLAH BLAH"S WORK I'M BETTER THAN HIM" and etc. I just want to block out many of the artists that you can tell... have no clue about real concept art or ...art at all for that matter, and example: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8485

about 6 times everyday i have to move a thread like this into the sketches section from the finished section. I mean seriously... there are SO MANY other forums out there that these artists can go and learn on.

sigh..

There's no win win way to this guys.

and btw... ChadTHX1138 brings up a good point. we have 4,165 and growing... we use more bandwidth than sijun now. We get more "current active users" than sijun and eatpoo combined at times... this is just going to keep growing and growing and growing so if you don't thing 'noob's are a problem now... wait until a year if we don't enforce something

[jester]

I read through all the discussions regarding this topic and finally I feel that I have to contribute, too.

I'm one of the longest participants at this forum, I'm an "ambitious home concept artist" who isn't in the industry and never will. I got attracted to CA because of its friendly atmosphere and high standard of concept art.

I want to learn and I don't dare to bother the pros (more than necessary ;) ). So I decided for myself that my works are by no means ready for the "It's finally finished" section and always posted my sketches and humble attempts elsewhere. I'm glad that MindCandyMan, I.was.ink and I were able to start the "Middle Class" for all those ambitious people who are still on the learning path. It's great that we got a subforum of our own and I only wish that we would get more crits from the pros from time to time. Oh well. :rolleyes:

I also get sort of annoyed when I read an interesting subject line and just find those furries and would-be--animes-with-distortions - but mostly because I'm still on a slow modem connection and its a waste of time and money. Otherwise I think they don't hurt really. And that's also where you split the men from the boys (so to say): most of them never come back. Apropos never come back: I'm as much annoyed by really great artist who drop by with amazing works, collect crits, are fishing for compliments and never give any crits themselves.

I fear that people like those assembled in the middle class would not be allowed to post anymore (or wouldn't dare) but that this wouldn't stop the noobs from posting crappy pics and announcing it like fantastic art. So in my opinion, let them all post. When they don't give crits, ignore their posts - and they'll leave again. I think that's true for 12-year old noobs as well as for the last mentioned sort of posters.

I think it would probably help if you let people sign a sort of forum policy when they register. This has to be short (so that it will be read!) and to make people sensible to think about what they post where.

And maybe we could get rid of the rubbish in the "It's finally finished" section if we chose a different name for it. I can't think of anything proper right now but it should imply that this is a piece of work that was done for a special project, being private or commercial, and is part of a concept and not just a single drawing/painting to be given to grandma or to be hung on your friend's wall.

Sorry for the lengthy post but after reading through this discussion during the past days/weeks a lot came to my mind.

Jester

[R_M]

My take on this is as follows.

we should be diveded into 3 categories, that aren't based on ones skills but on your own expectations.

Pros. that is easy, when you get paid, for what you do you are a pro, and your art isn't called fanart anymore. youre art will probaly kick ass and evrybody will look at it. they spend their life working. you post cause you want to get better.

Dreamers. Some users are almost there, but not quite. the work they post is of high quality and they spend a good amount off their free time working (if not all), hoping to get in the industry. You could have a CV database for dreamers.
you post cause you want to get better.

Hobbiest. spends less time working on a picture than it takes me to shave in the morning. they also dream of getting into the industry, but are not willing to put the time and effort that is required into it, but still hang out here because it is fun, and want to get better.

It should be up to the single users conscience, hopes and commonsense to choose the right category for him. and lets not kid ourselfs, if we are honest about it we will probbaly get a better working forum and more help. if we lie, the mods will find out pretty fast about it and put us in the right category.

One last thing. No matter what Jason, Android and the mods decide, someone will feel upset about it.

[davi]

How is making 3 forums different than me picking out who is horrible and who isn't?

I'll still have to pick out which forum who can post in. it's the same thing.. do you think people are really going to come to this forum and click on the Hobbiest forum? No.. it would go completely un used, it was be just like removing them yet keeping them members.

another reason i want to start REMOVING people is that this site costs alot of money now, as i said our bandwidth is staggering... does jason(yes he pays for EVERYTHING) need to be dishing out $10 extra or more for the bad artists to post their art and get pity replies?

[N D Hill]

All right. It looks as if the general consensus is opposed the status ratings. I am too but I'm also beginning to see davi's point about the study hall doodles. And frankly he's right; they can go elsewhere. I was just looking around yesterday, checking out just how much this happens it happens alot. In fact, I took the time to reply to some fanart yesterday and this kid couldn't even take a crit! He emailed me, accusing me of flying off the handle when I told him what a post should look like in orderto get people interested in it.

I don't suggest we discriminate in terms of skill, but in attitude. Perhaps we have a biginners section where serious entry-level members can be filtered. I won't be a matter of revewing everyone as not everyone will be persistant in their desire to improve. We create an environment where those who are serious can rise to the top and ascend to the next level.

[R_M]

I see what you mean Davi, but I wasn't reffering to different forums, just though it could be more clear to the users the level a thread starter is.

Please don´t bite my head off, but what about a subsciption fee? it would be only fair...

[Beer Baron]

What about all new art posts are to be submitted to a mod before being posted? The mod can than determine what category it best fits in. A small code can be attached before the title of the artwork to tell people what skill level it is thus making browsing easier and quicker. ('A' for advanced, 'I' for intermediate, 'B' beginner.) An example could be; "B: My killer Mecha."

This would only apply to art posts. Any replies to the art or new topics, like in the Lounge, could stay the same.

Don't know how many new art posts there are a day, but the waiting period for the art to appear may deter impatient Noobs from posting their Wolverine sketches every day.

[egerie]

and who's going to pay for this full time postman job ?:rolleyes:

[amphex]

Davi, you dont think that splitting the forums up into 3 categories would be easier than going around and finding people to kick out?
If we split it up into 3 categories, and new mods are 'hired', then it will be incredibly easy to weed out the posts that dont fit. For example, in the Pros forum, everyone that posts there is gonna be known by the mods, just because theyre practically famous around here. So if 'iamurowner333' posts, it will definitely get a look. Also, a rule to make it easier for mods in the "Middle Class" forum would be to encourage people not to post in threads that they feel arent "up to par". Thereby making a low post count a warning sign for mods. And the "noobs" forum would only have to be moderated lightly.

I understand your worries over the bandwith, but kicking people out should not be the solution! Mindcandyman (sorry to bring you into this mcm..), was probably not 'up to par' when he started here, but if he was kicked out after his first or second thread, then he wouldnt be the inspirational member that he is today.
If Jason cant pay for bandwith, Im sure there are alot of us who would be willing to help. Now that Ive got a job, I wouldnt mind donating a couple bucks (im at a supermarket mind you, so only a COUPLE ;)) if a donation system was set up.

I think it would IMMENSELY helpful if Jason would share his thoughts in this thread.
I personally thought that the whole issue was taken care of for CA v2, and am kinda surprised that the mods are still discussing it with the community.

[amphex]

Oh, and I just read exo's post, and he makes an extremely good point regarding skill vs. attitude.
This site, at least to me, has always been one based on elevation of the dedicated, rather than of the simply talented.
To cut out the poorer artists eliminates that.

[Fipse]

I´m following the discussion now and think I want to add my points of view, too.

The problem is what do you want CA to be? If I may quote the beginning:

"Conceptart.org is a site that is created for the purposes of showcasing work, meeting other artists with similar interests and learning. The message boards will be used to help each other to further develop portfolios, as well as discuss art, get constructive critiques, and assist with employment. We are fortunate to be able to draw every day for a living and absolutely love what we do. For those interested in the field we have put together a group of very open artists who will share knowledge, technique and ideas. We have an Artist Representative who will be assisting those in need of recruiting help in the entertainment industry once the project is up and running strong. We want to make it as easy as possible for each other to converse and share works. We encourage honesty on opinion, dedication to learning, and open-minded teamwork. Please participate as much as possible. The more we work at sharing ideas, concepts, and technique, the faster we will all improve."

So what the forum is about is at the moment showing, learning and sharing ideas. This was the reason why I first read here, got inspired and than tried to participate.

What here isn´t stated is what kind of art will be published and what are the minimum standards (adn e.g. I´ve seen some kickass Anime-artists out there - even if I really don´t like the style) . Do you want a "Quality-police" or is the attitude that´s counting and who again will be the "Attitide-Nazi"? And he/she will be called this, I´m sure... As Jester told above attitude (and politeness) is no matter of skill-level and is even worse to evaluate.

At the moment it seems to me you´re all talking about the finally finished forum. I don´t see much of a problem being a little more rigid and moving the "unfinished" and (yet) unskillful to the approbiate forum - we´ve got enough at the moment. I think in this forums they will separated by nature (means they don´t get replies if it´s just crappy or they don´t show the will to learn). But I don´t want to disourage a beginner directly by valuating him/her. Here we have wonderful exercises of attitude with people like MindCandyMan, Oblio or I.was.Ink who started maybe rough but used this forum as a constant medium to improve. I really love to watch them getting better and better (and envy them for their energy :)) What would have happened if they would have been discouraged by a rude "You´re a Noob, go into the back where the other children play and don´t disturb the pros with your crap". In Germany we have a saying that´s about this: "The biggest critics of elks have been one themselves" ...

I´m really not much of a fan of a Valuation-System because - as Davi said - noone should bear the task of putting people in a sections. Maybe a little more rigid moderating would do good, to keep things in order and don´t let the forum being overwhelmed by crappy art - I suppose it´s easy to delete a post for a moderator. Maybe the rules for participating should be made more clearly even if I know that many people won´t read them ... I doubt if many people can read at all, but that´s my usual cultural pessimism. And what should be made more clearly is what the aims of CA are and last but not least what is here understood as Conceptart. For me the term is quite difficult, I´m german and we haven´t got no special term like this ... maybe I´m in the wrong forum since September 02 ... :D.

With the clearance of this terms, a sensible choice of forums and a set of stated rules the Moderators should have a tool that they can use on crappy posts, annoying people and weird germans like me. This has worked in another Messageboard I´m in (reenactment orientated - there are problems alike here) very well and it still is working and prospering.

I hope I could make myself understandable in this overlong post ... sometimes I´m speaking Pidgin ...

Fipse

[Fipse]

Mhm, Amphex seems to share a lot of my thoughts ... sorry for the double posts we posted nearly the same time ;-)

Fipse

[amphex]

"The biggest critics of elks have been one themselves" ...

well said lol ;)

[davi]

Beer Baron, i like your idea about submitting and labeling but the problem arises when people get more skillful, i don't want to have to rereview everyones art daily to see if they are better, plus that would make me end up being the guy everyone hates from american idol for being overly honest.

And some of you who that are so against the deleting of noobs might want to start asking themselves.... why are you here?

Ok. Let me put it this way...

If i see an artist putting effort into his art that relates to concepts and such yet is horrible. I will probably let him stay.

If i see an artist only drawing wolverine, ninja turtles, cliche cyborgs and anime and they are decent.... i might delete them if that's all i see them doing.

I'm in no way saying fan art is bad, i just recently did a drawing of colossus(no posted), but I really don't think we need 'art groupies' clanging onto the forum just because there are pro's and other successful artists around? Does that make more sense?

Start clearing on the fan boys and keeping the people that are truely into conceptual design.

I believe creativity should reign over artistic quality.

[amphex]

And some of you who that are so against the deleting of noobs might want to start asking themselves.... why are you here?

Im here because I like it here.


wtf was that supposed to mean anyways davi?

[MGH]

I may be beating a dead horse here, but for those of us who can't manage the time out for the DSG how 'bout bringing back the themed speed painting. Also another Thunderdome seems overdue.
The DSG is a great idea, but short of making up my own theme (hey, how about Spitfires!?), I need some inspiration.
I should note that I'm someone who uses the forum mostly for fun and learning.

[davi]

yeah the daily sketch group might become... DAILY instead of schudeled how it is.

and amphex i mean are you here because of the fancy art(ists) or are you here because this forum is different than the other forums?

[amphex]

davi:
im here because this is the best community of all the art forums out there imo.
It provides all artists with a great environment for learning, and almost all of the great artists here are just cool people who are always willing to help.

[Kortez]

Ok, I hear what you guys are saying but how about YET ANOTHER idea? :)

I mean you guys have come up with some ideas for this, none of them had the power in the hands of the public, just a couple of selected mods.

How about if the members of this forum could decide the members of this forum?

If "1337h4x0r666" posts 20 of his 2 minute Wolverine pencil doodles, all in different posts, all in the "Finally Finished" (GOD FORBID). I think a mod were to be allowed to call a vote on if we want to see the rest of his doodles. If nobody likes this guy.. he can go do something over at www.1337ownage-art.com or something.

Just an idea, if you don't like it..... you can always vote me off :)


:chug:

EDIT: oh, and btw. I'm here because this THE PLACE to learn from, and the people here are extra nice :)

[MrSmith]

you know, regular members could take the initiative regarding 12 year old posters instead of relying on the mods to do all the work. when they post a 10 minute doodle in the finished works section, just reply and say it doesnt belong here. tell them not to post there until they are dedicated enough. tell them to read the rules.

most of the time they get 1 reply from some other n00b or someone with a valid crit, and that only encourages them to post more sketches in the wrong place. if someone posts in the wrong place, tell them that. dont give praise or crits until they acknowledge there mistake.

although the entire last 2 pages have nothing to do with brass's post...:rolleyes:

i lke the idea of a room for focused critiques, but im sure it has its own problems (like people that dont bother to read the rules. of course you could just ban them if they post "you r0x0rs" in that section. i am such a brutal fascist :) )

[R_M]

We should have 2 categories only:

boys

girls.

[ChadTHX1138]

Mr Smith you made me think about the fact that if someone is ignored or not commented on or critiqued what does putting them in another forum going to prove, no one will go there and look.

I am more likely to see them when they are in the same pond. I dont always critique but there are times when i have the time to comment on someone that looks like they could use the push. Also I dont visit every section of these forums because there are WAAAAAY TOO MANY SUB FORUMS. I look at half of them most of the time and it is just a chore to make sure I saw the new stuff on the main forums every day.

I check even if it is the beginner...WHY? i might miss something. You seperate us I wont visit that section often. Sometimes like in art the best solution is to keep it simple.

[brasshorsekiller]

Instead of making these ridiculous "classes", just have a forum for concept art, and one for everything else. This idea seems pretty lame to me, since the whole art section should JUST be concept art.

The website is conceptart.org. This isn't Sijun. This isn't Elfwood. I could name 1000 other forums that this one ISN'T, so why do people have so many issues against posting actual concept art here?

Eatpoo.com has a Finished Works section, and then a Concepts section. No one there has ever complained about it. What's the big difference here, if our main forum is for concepts?

The only real issue I see is that we just need more mods/admins who can regulate the steadily growing amount of ignorant people who keep posting the wrong things in the wrong sections.




By the way, I started this thread because of this kind of thing:

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7294

Cicinimo posted his art in hopes of getting some critiques. Read the barely legible responses he gets. Then he even mentions how he doesn't only want praise, and will go give some critiques, because that's what people should be doing.

If people could just take 2 minutes to take it easy and think about their response for more than 3 seconds, artists could actually learn, since that's what everyone seems to want. You can't learn from "omg u r so good i luv u omg wtf asl?".

[foster]

brasshorse, i am getting mixed signals from you. are you saying that you only want concept art on this forum? if this is the case who will be defining concept art? this may not be pertinent to your original post but is to your most recent.

jon

[amphex]

yah foster =)

brasshorse, if you read everything davi has been saying throughout this thread, that obviously would not solve the problem.

[ceenda]

foster: Hmn. When I think back to the early days of Conceptart...

[cue wailing violin music]

CA was definately different to the other forums. I mean substantially. Sijun, Eatpoo, Lumental etc. all were a mixed bag of stuff, but CA seemed to be full of the kinds of conceptual art that you might find in a book like "The Art of [insert seminal film classic here]". Regardless of artistic prowess, I recall the emphasis being very much 'design and concept'. Thesedays, however, CA just seems no different from any of the other forums. The quality is just as good, but most of the art is very smorgasbord, that is, illustrations etc. and not really what I'd call conceptart.

I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, but I agree with brasshorsekiller on this one.

[brasshorsekiller]

Exactly, Ceenda.

Jon, I'm basically saying that I'd like to see a lot more thought-out conceptual [i]design artwork on the site. Yes, this includes conceptual illustrations.

I'm sure the administrators and mods can differentiate between posts such as "ninja with sword!" and "Airship model sheet and costume designs".

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the art is just random scribbles of a mishmash of categories, which, as Ceenda pointed out, causes conceptart.org to become just another art forum. We might as well re-name it to EveryKindOfArt.org.

[fell]

i liked the "concepts" and "finished art" separation, sounds logical. but yhea whatever.

[darkcult]

This is a mutiny, I tells ya , MUTINY !!!
:baby

Save us Jeebus!

[fell]

this is more like awekining old issues over and over, i bet my ass now that there wont be any modifications after all this discussion.

[MrSmith]

actually i cant really say that i care. i only look at posts of people i know or high postcounts. i also like to get replies of "hey dude, you roxors!" because it boosts my pathetically low self confidence. AND i dont care what kind of art its is as long as it dont suck. but it would be kind of cool to have a forum only for concept art, but that really already exists here: http://www.conceptdesignforum.com/board/index.php layout similar to what brass is talking about but not a lot of traffic.

but for the most part, most changes people want arent very feasible (including my own) so basically, YER SCREWED!

[jmascho]

I think the owners/admins should just start doing whatever they feel is best. Don't tell us, just do it. SSJ|VEJITA879 DRAWING PLZ CRIT OMGWTF = *poof*

No more worries.

[incognito]

Um, please don't ban me or flame me for me small amount of art knowledge, but what is this forums definition of conceputal art and design? err concept art.

I have changed my opinion and I think that the mods and admins should just do what they feel best. Make some more moderators and tell them to weed out any bad art or to lock threads with 12 year old anime fan art so they wouldn't get any response except from what the mod said.

Thats what I think.

[amphex]

Ceenda, I too remember that at CA's beggining it was very unique. But not just for the large amount of conceptual designs! The site was, and still is, led by great artists, most specifically Jason Manley and Andrew Jones, who taught each and every one of us that all good art starts with the basics. They urged us to study anatomy, and draw with all the time that we have. They showed me, and an incredible amount of others the way to be the artists we want to be.
This site was never just a site where you can come to see character sheets and detailed space ship designs, it was a site centered around dedication to art, and a specific love for the conceptual design category of art.
If conceptart.org cuts out those types of artists that it nurtured in the beggining, it wouldnt be what made it so special.

Even though I do have some very strong beliefs regarding the future of CA, it is not up to me. Its not up to any of us. So I guess we just have to wait for Mr. Manley's decision. That is, if there even is one. How do any of us know that he is seriously considering these proposals? If only he would share his opinions with us wannabes..

PEACE, im going to bed =)

[Beer Baron]

I have another small idea that may help separate the fan drawings from the concept art. What about adding two checkmark boxes labeled "Concept Art" and "Other" at the bottom of the page when you are going to post an image. The artist clicks on one to categorize it, and then when he is finished and clicks 'submit,' the post automatically separates itself into the correct forum (Concept Art or Other). It's not foolproof, but it could clean up the boards a bit.

You could also add additional boxes the artist checks for skill level. Then no one Mod would be put on the spot for labeling someone’s talent level incorrectly. Artwork could be self-sorted by any category or skill level. Though this system depends greatly on people being honest with themselves and their work. The check system could free up the Mods for other important things.

(I don't know the first thing about HTML so I have no idea if this would be an easy thing to do or impossible.)

[N D Hill]

Personally, i like the structure of the forums. I'd maybe bring back the themed-speed painting section and make the thunder dome projects a little more frequent and casual, maybe allowing all of the mods to draft assignments. I also don't mind the ammount of subforums either. We have just about everything covered that way, finished 2-d, sketches (with a daily user sketchbook subforum which was a great idea), 3-d section and a section devoted to fine arts education.

Maybe the one thing I'd change is DSG and change it to the themed speed paintings. Don't get me wrong, i love looking at some of the work in those, it's just that's all I and many others will ever be able to do; just look. A lot of people simply just don't have the time to participate where as a weekly topic would definitely hook us in.

The problem is with users who don't take the forum seriously. Some users have no concern about improving their portfolio let alone contributing serious insights into the work of others. As far as I'm concerned they already have a forum that's just for them (cough) (http://www.sijun.com). I'm not saying we go ahead and shut people out left and right, but what I'm beginning to conlude now, is that we need more mods to uphold the the CA mission statement and put the offenders in their place by moving their threads into an anything goes section.

With all this debate on how to make the forums better, I also think it's important that I say that this really is the best Art forum on the net. I've seen the best professional to amatuer interaction here than anywhere else. I'm grateful for what we already have here. In the end, it's up the mods and admins and the brain trust of tallented artists. That's good enough for me.

[davi]

I'm too lazy to comment on everything right now

but the problem with thunderdome is that it's hard to set up the prizes... jason pays alot of the site already...

we need donations such... yet i really don't want to go around posting posts about begging for prizes.

[amphex]

Haha, i just thought of something.
All of us bumbling idiots are going around preaching new ideas and new setups for the site, but..
who the fuck is gonna code it?
Even if they were able to, I sure as hell wouldnt want any current admin doing all the work, they all already have too much shit goin on.
Is anyone here fluent in PHP?
I read a couple pages of a book once, but then i fell asleep so i kinda forget it all.
and by kinda, i mean completely.

[ChadTHX1138]

I agree with amphex who's going to take the time to write code.

BEER BARON:Having used the admin tools you cannot set up anything like you are talking about unless you take the time to code it yourself. I wouldnt want to.

By the way has anyone else noticed this same debate is going on in multiple threads at the same time? i have even noticed it started on another today on a topic that had nothing to do with this.

It seems like a mutiny or something:bash: :bash: :bash: :D <<me laughing

[togusa]

i feel the winds of change blowing. maybe there will be another forum rising to rival conceptart.org... perhaps it will be about conceptDESIGN

[amphex]

togusa : http://www.conceptdesignforum.com/board/index.php ?

[seb]

this forum pretty much sucked the life out of that one and then they were rushed by noobs... sad really.

*shakes his head sadly

[amphex]

we need Conceptart.org V2...where are you VERSION 2???!

[davi]

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8563

^ that's the art that will be deleted.
Only reason it isn't deleted is because i'm using it as a reference for horrible horrible crap.

[MrSmith]

people who draw furries are the worst kind of pervs...

[Tedsuo]

Man, what a tough subject!

I agree that having the mods do all the filtering work is a rather taxing solution. My question is: What can we do to help? I first came to this forum two days after it opened, and have been coming consistently since. Perhaps I don't post as often as I should, but I would be willing to help in any way to keep this place going.

I see that "report this post to a moderator" button in the corner. How useful is that? If I see something that isn't neccesarily doggie porn, but still doesn't belong on this site or belongs in another section, should I go ahead and notify a mod? Or is that just a pain in the ass?

For example:

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8530


This guy annoys me. His posts often read like advertisements, and even though people constanly yell at him he refuses to post his stuff in the correct forum because he believes more people will see them in the Finished section. Regardless of the fact that the tuts he's pushing are the straight-from-the-manual variety, that kind of disrespect annoys me. Should I have reported him?


Anyways, if there's a way for us the community to help keep this place chugging along, I willing to do it.

[MGH]

I know I'm skipping back a bit here, but I was thinking about my comments on the DSG.
Davi, I think you should keep the DSG as is (just have separate themed speed painting). I think it's a great idea (for pros, not just noobs) to have to produce under time restrictions.

[Erik]

No offense to anybody proposing the 'rules' solution (i have been its advocate in the past, before i though about it a really long time and read all those posts on the subject) but: I don't think making hard rules will work. It's a social change thing.

I think it's in our minds and the forum 'culture'. Something we have to nurture, unwritten rules of conduct or 'mores' if you will. That will take care of the 'grey areas' too and allow evolution of the forum instead of chaining it to fixed rules that will take so much effort to enforce and are annoying to so many people. Everybody will look to mods for enforcement too, the feeling of contribution would be gone soon.

With these 'unwritten rules' noobs will be gently corrected by more established users (regardless of that user's level of proficiency) if they do stuff that is not right, like posting 5 minute bathroom doodles in finally finished or replying with the 'roxor boxor' phrasing that is only indicative of braindamage.

The point is, i think, that if people unaware of these unwritten rules start posting and replying only to each other, while nobody corrects them (because they don't want to reply to something they deem under par) they WILL become the leading culture out here, simply by strength of numbers. However, since they/we all want to be part of this community and instinctively respects and tries to emulate the examples set by the pros (in their posting/crits just as much as in the art they make) a few of those posts and crits will make a big difference. We lesser mortals can show that we also follow these unwritten rules and explain them, and pretty soon noobs will correct eachother on improper conduct,

This is in my opinion the only way to make changes in such an amorphous and large group of people. Give them the same ideal of 'proper conduct' as imperative in achieving the goal of being a respected member of the community.

To get such a set of unwritten rules we have to agree on some though. I think that one would be: think before posting images! Then think again!

Another could be: try to give constructive criticism in a post (even if the artist is much better than you) or ask questions on how/why they did something, in order to discuss content and technique instead of the elusive and subjective 'coolness' of a picture.

Most of these rules are probably here already. We just have to educate everybody on them. (Including ourselves). Make it a more 'mature' thing.

There will always be compliment threads when someone posts real good stuff, but what i personally like most is for instance in the thread in finally finished by Marko, that someone else comes along and tries to help out by doing a paintover to further improve the impressive stuff. That's much better than just a bunch of wows.



I think the level of agreement on what is annoying and what is good conduct exists already. So we will be able to turn the tide. No need to banish or flame or anything, just gentle steering out of the danger zone.

The worst thing to do would be watch what happens from the sideline and when it has gone too far nuke the thing with hard rules and restrictions.

[Erik]

If there is need for coders (php, HTML, whatever else) just drop me a line. I don't have all the time in the world but to help out for this forum it's no problem.

Erik

[foster]

hey davi, well i can not say that i find anything of interest in the furry genre, but i think her dragon portrait had some nice stuff happening. as i read in the replies, she got a good critique and she appreciated it and even elaborated on the furry stuff.

why would you delete it? why not just tell her that they are more sketch, and move them to that forum.

i really have problems with any one moderator making subjective decisions on art. we would need a group of five to do it properly and that is not possible in this format.

if you keep moving things and reminding them to put work in the appropriate forum it will eventually sink in.

but if you decide what is good and what is bad you do become dictatorial and we have lost a basic freedom. we have freedom of speech in the united states. that means that even the vilest of organizations have the right to speak out on their beliefs. we would love to tell them to go away but if we did we could also loose our right to speak and we might have good things to say. it is simple, it is frustrating, but we can not censure, especially for quality of work!

jon

[davi]

foster she acutally posted the dragon AFTER i made the post.

so it wasn't there when i complained.

Foster, your "lost of freedom thing", If i start putting at the front of the 'register' page that their work has to have at least some experience to post. if not their work will not allowed to be shown on the site.

I'm not going to make this lumental and have to approve every arrival into the site, but if people start posting REALLY bad art i will have to delete it.

examples:
This is good: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8496

if this was in the finished section it would be deleted:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7609

to be honest... most of the things i've seen as crap... i've deleted already...

wiggly linked batman drawings and hulk 'paintings'. wolvernine drawings seemily taken directly from comic book pages. one of my main problems is that there is ALOT of bad drawings being put into the finished section from artists who really don't have the skills to be calling something finished.

[amphex]

Ok, I finally understand fully where your coming from Davi.
But...
To a "noob", that may BE a finished piece! So how are they to know not to put it there?
If your thread deletion is going to continue, at least let everyone know why..not everyone reads this thread.

[MrSmith]

sorry, this all sounds very rude, but you get the idea.

you dont really get freedom of speech in a forum. and you cant really have a gathering of the great mods to determine if a post is worthy of deletion or not, its just not possible with all the traffic.

lets just not have any standards or rules at all. if a n00b posts a stickman that he worked hard on for 5 seconds and thinks its finished work, he should have every right to post it in finished! if i want to draw 2 furries going at it doggie style, it cant be deleted, its art, MAN! how dare you think your better than me! never mind thats its not actually concept art, its art! i created it, and to create i had to conceptualize the idea, so therefore its concept art!

but anyway, despite all this talk, the cycle of forum life continues. first, a pro guy makes a board with some of his buddies. Then, we pathetic noobs find out about it and move in, and for a time, all is well. the balance is maintained. but then more noobs move in, and the pros either become too busy, or get tired of all the crap and move out. the the dark, "deviant art" time begins. rules go out the window and the board becomes another anime board. then some other pro starts a message board (or rarely, cleans out an old one) and thus the cycle continues.:rolleyes: i hope they cover this in matrix:revolutions, though i wont see it.

[spiraleye]

Yeah, okay, even though I'm a noob to this forum doesn't make me a noob to all. Or a noob in art, though I still have a long way to go before I can get a job. Anyway . . .

There are two other fairyl simple solutions to consider: One was mentioned before--payment. You make this even a nominally subscription service (like $5 for 5 years) and I guarantee your crowd will drop significantly. No twelve-year-old I know of has a credit card. . . and I'm way too cheap to pay for an art forum, so you'd get me off your tail as well. :)

The second solution is to change accounts if they don't post here within, say three months. If you don't post within three months you gotta log in, sign in, whatever. That might make the infrequent but great artists who visit upset, but your main user base would be a manageable size, I'd guess.

Two cents from a noob.

[incognito]

I think davi already posted that this will stay a non-subscription site.

[Erik]

Hey mrSmith, that's a negative approach.

We only have to remind eachother of proper/improper conduct at all times and the stuff will get back together.

It's happening already. Check the finished forum. Davi (or other Mod) hasn't been throwing stuff out to my knowledge and now it is good quality again! Let's be grateful and keep the culture alive.

This forum rules and will keep ruling if we make it rule.

[tyboogie]

DAVI

no offense but the idea of you being the sole judge on whether or not art gets to stay on teh site is just wrong. make a new forum or something --like a beginners forum--but to tell someone that there work isnt even good enough to be posted is BS. lets try to keep the forum a democracy, not a dictatorship


Foster speaks the truth

[incognito]

I think we should just make another subforum called "beginning" and just throw everything that you are about to delete there.

[ceenda]

Okay, a couple of things.

Firsly, it's 2am, I'm drunk, but I'm going to stammer on regardless.

MrSmith hit the nail on the head, it's a harsh truth, but then, anything, if it's true should not fear honest criticism. In general, I think a moderator like Davi can be trusted to make a concise decision about whether a piece of art is deserving of the audience that views it. I mean, if something is done in 5 minutes, IT SHOWS. Someone, of any level who works on something for at least 30 mins can show a pic that has, regardless of skill, demonstrate that they have genuinely attemped to improve their skills or seek feedback on their technique. 5min Dragon-ballZ art is worthy of nothing but utter contempt. Not because it's someone's 'art', but because it insults all the people who come here, working hard to put across their ideas and SEEK GENUINE CRITIQUES TO HELP THEM IMPROVE. I guarantee you, anyone who posts 5min art gets pissy the moment you critisize or genuinely attempt to help then. I MEAN, WHY DO WE HAVE MODS IF NOT TO BE ARBITRATORS IN A FREE-FOR-ALL ENVIRONMENT????????? If you're going to criticize, at the very least start your own forum on bendy rules and see how long your forum lasts.

[the author is totally pissed and accepts no responsibility for his comments]

[foster]

ceenda, censorship is a slippery slope. one person deciding what is worthy and what is not will in short time have catastrophic failure. soon you may say something or post something that others or just that one person having a bad day will find unworthy and, pop, there you go off to oblivion. you may approach this with an attitude that you do not care but i rather think you would.

instead work a little harder yourself in the forums and critique the people you say will not handle it, if what you say is true they will move to another thread or forum to get what they need. but if they weather the comments and make progress then they belong.

The following is to everyone not just ceenda.

I REALLY DO NOT SEE WHY EVERYONE IS UPSET BY THE LOW QUALITY WORK. DON'T LOOK AT IT IF IT IS THAT MUCH OF A BOTHER.

PERHAPS YOU ARE AFRAID THAT THIS WORK IS A REFLECTION ON YOU? IF THIS IS THE CASE YOU NEED TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT YOURSELF AND YOUR INSECURITIES.

most suggestions require censorship and an elitist point of view. if you do this i will no longer be interested in this site and a great deal of potential fantastic artists will not either.

it may not be easy to have free speech and democracy on a forum but we should most certainly try.

jon

[tyboogie]

i agreee 1000000% with foster, and not because im kissing his ass in any way but because i agree. If young artists are trying to post work and their work gets deleted because its not worthy....without them having a noob sub-forum , I can guarantee you ill dissapear.

we are all arguing about the fact that davi is deleting peoples posts he doesnt deem worthy
like foster said--you really cant have only one person doing the judging. i wouldnt want to judge peoples work worthy or not even if i had time to do so. would it be that hard to start a beginners forum? davi, i remember you said all anime drawings would be deleted....well the guys that have masterd that style would really be missed on here

ive been apart of this forum long enough to speak my opinion openly, and hopefully it will mean something. the idea of deleting peoples posts is a totally new issue. and as a part of a community, i totally disagree with it. hopefully with the new revision of teh site there will be a place for the most cliched, fan-art manics to atleast test the waters before theyre are deemed unworthy by peoples reaction posts/comments.

this forum is SPECIAL goddamnit, lets not ruin it.

i just dont want CA to become some snobby eletist forum over time--where people are discouraged from being concepta artists when they were just getting started

i mean i think this site has done really great things to bring about awareness of concept artists and the role we play in modern mediums

[incognito]

yeah...this is a special forum.

[mcotie]

ok I'm gettin in on this a little late but I'll put in the the only 2cents i can afford. My son is 9 and he loves to draw. and he loves to post stuff on this forum. actually he only posted twice, but I can assure you he's asked to post 10000 times. BUT because I am his "moderator" if you will, I ask him the best way I can, if he thinks it truly is a good piece. one that he thinks is worthy to be posted and usually he makes the decision not to post it. It's hard for him though, and Its even harder for me to keep his motivation up and not destroy him as an artist by critiquing him. So basically I let him critique his own stuff. I just point things out to him that he may want to try later on.

Unfortunatley there are a million kids and young artists out there that don't have the benefit of having an art mentor, someone to critique them. I broke out some of my old stuff from before I was getting feedback from other artists and I can't believe the shit i cranked out on a regular basis and actually thought it was cool.

So what it boils down to is, these young artists NEED the feedback. they need to gets tips from us that were in the same boat they are in. So start a new thread and make it for new guys or something. I'm sure there is a cool way to do this, but we can't axe them because we don't think they are worthy of us.

I can'tthink of anything else to say right now. I'll stew on it a little while and see what else I come up with.

Mitch

[ceenda]

Okay, firstly, I'm a fool. Secondly, I'm a fool and should know better. :p

Thirdly, with the break of dawn and a sweet sense of sobriety I shall try and clarify (and edit the bowling-language out of my last post).

The main distinction I wanted to make was that there is a difference between 'quality' and 'effort'. This is why moderation is such a hard task. No one here was painting the Mona Lisa when they were 5, everyone had a starting point where a little bit of inspiration became something greater and all of a sudden we just wanted to draw draw draw! With regard to insecurities, you're right foster. I know that many times I'm pot-calling-kettle-black when I flame other artists, which is why I'm very reluctant to do that and I can't off hand think of any time I've flamed someone for not posting good quality. Usually it's because the picture has been done so quickly, that it's hard to know where to begin. It's really about artists of any level asking the question "What do I want from this forum?". My early work was very poor when I first started posting on Sijun (the newer work is still poor, but I like to think I learn here and there :p), but other forum members were friendly and offered critiques and the more I learned the more I wished to help others.

To sum up, it's not the quality (if by quality, you mean technical abilities) of a post, but whether it's a sincere effort. I know that if I'd been too scared to post when I first started out, I would possibly have not continued painting (or perhaps not digital art).

[darkcult]

I'm with- tyboogie, foster and mcotie 100% on this one.
You guys have my vote.

[Erik]

I think stuff is improving already -- check the finally finished. Great posts, great new people and great crits. I don;t see much fanboy anymore all of a sudden.

If we just keep our opinions up and do as said in this thread, correct or moderate gently and appear as a cohesive community with standards it will all work out fine.

It's all about the people, not about the rules.

[Fipse]

:iws:

Fipse

[tyboogie]

maybe we could start a new sub forum, and we could call it "deleted works"

[Tedsuo]

And we could make it a sub forum of the "Ooohs and Ahhhs" sub forum.



BTW on a related note: while I don't believe in making this a subscription based forum, would it be possible to set up a donation system? It sucks that Mr. Manley must pay for this all on his lonesome. The overflow, if it happenned, could go to Thunderdome prizes.

[incognito]

think about that for a second, If every forum member gave only one dollar, than jason manley would get thousands of dollars! Wow...:eek:

[Lono]

i believe its both Manley and Android we should be thanking for shelling out the monthly cash..

just putting that out there.

-Lono

[incognito]

its both? Oh, nevermind; then both android and manley would be getting thousands of dollars!

[StephenC]

i'm all for donation system.

[incognito]

They could just set up a paypal account.

[Orban]

I agree totally with Foster, Mcotie, Erik... Before trashing people for poor art(we all have done some, and I still do that everyday;)), we must help them, by simply saying that to them, that they're at the wrong place. Davi and the other mod can(and do) move the post where it must be.
I know it's hard to see some 30s work, but erhm, everybody made error.
I got the chance to have an art mentor who push me to try thing. I'm not really anymore a noob nor I'm at the level of a pro... and since I don't do many concept but more painting I don't post a lot here :)(I hope I will join you in the next week since I love designing things to sculpt, or my cloth or... well I love that :D).
So we must le them have a chance to have critics - by helping them understand where to post and why they have do it wrong. How much times do you think it will take to you to do that? Not a lot if we do it all. We must no kill people, but educate them :)
We can hope by following this way that everybody will be happy again and that we will not see lot of fan copy, furries, 30s try...
We are a community. It's to us to make it live