painting without turp, or non toxic alternatives

[sweetoblivion314]

This time of year it can get very cold where i live so proper ventalation can pose a problem. I have an exaust fan in my kitchen (the next room over from where my easle is, but im afaid that may be to far from my setup to help. So i was wondering if there are any ways to paint with oils without using thinner? Or is there an alternative that does not require proper ventilation?

I apologize if this has been posed already but a search revealed nothing relevent.

[Kikwit]

You can get Oil of spike from the cennini. It' good stuff, it smells pretty odd, but it's non-toxic, and it works just as well as turpentine from my expirience (just don't use it with damar varnish). It's a bit expensive, but it's worth it if you need a thinner and you can't deal with regular solvents. It comes in two sizes, and you can get it here

http://store.studioproducts.com/product.php?productid=16136&cat=261&page=1

[Elwell]

It is possible, and it has been discussed. Search here or google for solvent free oil painting.
Edit: Kikwit, spike is hardly "non-toxic," no more so than turpentine. It's different than tups, and some people who react badly to turps prefer it, but others react even worse to it. If lack of ventilation is the problem, you're better off with a highly refined OMS like Turpenoid or Gamsol.
But as I said, this has been covered extensively before.

[sweetoblivion314]

ok ill do that search parameter, thank you. i apologize for the wasted time.

[arttorney]

I got allergy issues and don't use solvents or media except the paint, linseed oil, and goop type automotive hand cleaner. Basically, you have to paint more "direct" and forget about glazing, although it is still open season on drybrushing/scumbling.

When done wipe the excess paint from brushes with a rag that you dispose of safely so as not to start fires. Get two jars of Linseed oil and rinse your brushes out with first one jar and then the second jar (that will always be the cleaner of the two). At that point the pigment will be mostly or totally gone from the brushes. You still need to remove the oil, though, and that is what the goop hand cleaner is for. After one or two passes with that stuff and rinsing out in the sink, your brushes will be close enough to the "wet" side (as the dry cleaners would say) to where soap and water will finish them off cleanly. I'd use the cheap boiled linseed oil from Home Depot for brush cleaning. The art store stuff is what you would use if you want to try glazing without the solvents or media. You'd have to lay the painting flat and leave it that way for a couple of weeks, which is a nuisance.

[Flake]

I started an "Oil painting in a small flat in a really cold country" thread a while back, might be of use to you.
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53127&highlight=oil

Having actually tried it out I can confirm that a paint and linseed oil combo doesn't smell at all, no thumping headaches to report either. :)

For cleanup this stuff actually smells quite nice and cleans brushes fine.
http://www.dickblick.com/zz057/16/

[Kikwit]

It is possible, and it has been discussed. Search here or google for solvent free oil painting.
Edit: Kikwit, spike is hardly "non-toxic," no more so than turpentine. It's different than tups, and some people who react badly to turps prefer it, but others react even worse to it. If lack of ventilation is the problem, you're better off with a highly refined OMS like Turpenoid or Gamsol.
But as I said, this has been covered extensively before.

Listen to Elwell, I've never had to worry much about ventilation or reaction with solvents, so I don't think I put enough thought into my post.

[ArtEdGradStudent]

Acrylics baby!!!! Go to your local art store and look at Golden's selection of paints. Over half are transparent just like oil paints, there's tons of different, healthier mediums to mix with, and when it dries, you'll never have to worry about surface cracks and spidering.

No, but seriously, for oil there's also Galkyd and Liquin. They both advise proper ventilation, but they're much better than turpentine. The only problem you might have is they speed up drying time for oils, but I found this works well for painting in stages.

[Seedling]

Acrylics baby!!!!. . . you'll never have to worry about surface cracks and spidering.

Not quite true. Below-freezing temperatures can cause acrylic paintings to crack. Also, acrylics have not yet been around long enough to know what to expect from them in a hundred or more years. Judging by how poorly most plastic goods hold up over time, my hopes aren't high.

Here's some info on the preservation and difficulties with preservation of acrylic paintings:

http://www.si.edu/MCI/english/learn_more/taking_care/acrylic_paintings.html

[sweetoblivion314]

i have acrylic paints and im not a fan of them at all. They dry way to fast.
Im gonna try it with the linseed oil later tonight. Thanks for all the help everyone :)

[dose]

you can also try water-soluble oil paints. While they aren't as nice as regular oils, I certainly prefer them to acrylics when I'm unable to use turps. I've tried a few brands- most are terrible. The only one I've found worth the trouble is Grumbacher Max- they're the only brand that has a decent texture and that includes most of the nicer pigments in their color lineup. They are expensive at a lot of places, but for some reason dickblick.com has them at a reasonable price (pretty much comparable to regular oils).

[Elwell]

I'll say what I always say when someone brings up water miscible (not soluble) oils: they're a solution in search of a problem. There's absolutely nothing you can do with them that you can't do with regular oils, including not using solvents.

[MyOrangeHat]

Well if you're looking for non-toxic solvents I stumbled across a product called Turpenoid Natural in the store the other day. I picked some up and it seems to be working well for me, but I'm a noob at oil painting so I'm not sure how stuff is supposed to work in the first place. This stuff has very minimal smell(kind of smells like that orange clean stuff) to it and claims to be completely non-toxic.
http://www.dickblick.com/zz004/43/

[Firefly]

:star: Clean your brushes in oil instead of solvents.
That's what I do, I never use turpentine. I use safflower oil because it's cheap and it's works well with linseed oil. Several companies make their titanium white with safflower oil anyway because it doesn't yellow as bad.
You can buy a little jug in the grocery store (called Saffola) with the other cooking oils for about three dollars. Safflower oil is a slow dryer, but it will dry eventually so if you don't use your brushes every day, wash the oil out with Dawn.

If you don't want to use any solvents at all that limits your medium choices. Grahm's Alkyd walnut oil doesn't use solvents and is a good one to use if you want your paint to dry quickly.

There are also several low oder mediums that use oderless mineral spirits instead of turpentine. They aren't non-toxis as it still gets in the air somewhat, but it's not nearly as bad as turp. You can check the Gamblin company site for more info on them.

[sweetoblivion314]

i just tried it with linseed oil and it worked very well thanks :) only problem, those glass bottles look like they hold alot more then they actualy do, hence im out. So could i use Canola or some other kind of cooking oil i have around the house? or do i have to go down to the store?

About water soliable oils. I wont be in my current climate for very much longer. Im going to AAU in San Francisco in January so i wont have a problem using solvents out there so this is just temporary. So i dont want to spend money on a different kind of paint just to switch back in a month. Plus from reading on these forums and just reading how they work they dont seem like they would be as good as regular oil paints.

[Elwell]

You can use any sort of vegetable oil for cleaning your brushes, but make sure you thoroughly wash them with soap and water afterwards. Most cooking oils aren't drying oils, or have been treated with vitamin E as a preservative, so they can cause drying problems if you mix them with paint. For thinning paint, or rinsing your brush while you work, stick with linseed (or poppy, safflower, or walnut).

[sweetoblivion314]

awsome thanks again Mr. Elwell :)

[k4pka]

I also have ventilation issues, but still use solvents. I only use a solvent during the initial wash of a painting, so the turps gets lidded after a very breif period of time. As for swishing the brushes, I use mineral spirits, again kept lidded until I need to swish a brush. Works perfectly, never get the overwhelming smell of anything but paint in my place.

I dont like cleaning with linseed as I dont thin my paint with anything beyond an initial wash, and if you swish with linseed, its almost impossible to get it all out the brush before going back to the paint.

[stephen]

Well if you're looking for non-toxic solvents I stumbled across a product called Turpenoid Natural in the store the other day.

this stuff cleans brushes really well, I wouldnt recomend using it IN your painting, i did when i was first getting into oil painting and those paintings seriously took months to dry from what i remember, and they were really tacky feeling..

[ArtEdGradStudent]

Turpenoid might not be quite as toxic as turpentine, but trust me, you don't want to breathe it. I made the mistake of using it in a plaine-aire(sp) landscape, and then drove home with it in the car. The fumes from that painting gave me a killer headache that lasted a couple days. Never used that crap again.

[Flake]

i just tried it with linseed oil and it worked very well thanks :) only problem, those glass bottles look like they hold alot more then they actualy do, hence im out.

Woah, how much linseed are you using exactly?

I have a 75ml bottle in the next room that I'd expect to last me for at least 10 A4 sized paintings, maybe 3 or more biiig paintings although I'm only using it as a medium, not for rinsing brushes etc..

[sweetoblivion314]

the bottle didnt say the volume (came in a painting set i got) but it was about 3 x 4 inches thich glass bottle. It filled about 1/4 inch of each of the 2 small cups i was using.

[dose]

I'll say what I always say when someone brings up water miscible (not soluble) oils: they're a solution in search of a problem. There's absolutely nothing you can do with them that you can't do with regular oils, including not using solvents.

Why the hate on water mixable oils? It might be a perfectly good solution for some people. Maybe not in this particular case- but really, what's wrong with them?

[arttorney]

The boiled linseed oil from Home Depot approaches $10/gal. as I recall, so comparison shopping may reveal that one of the vegetable oils is the better choice for after-painting cleaning of the brushes. I may change myself when my gallon jug runs out. The only loss would be that I have found the pigment contaminated linseed oil can be thinly wiped across a matte white house paint surface and left a couple of weeks, yielding a surface that accepts oil paint OK and is analogous to a mid gray toned ground. The non-drying vegetable oils couldn't be recycled in this way. Still, this recycled priming is probably only as good as the house paint used and so if you got a ripoff can of house paint the whole thing could end up peeling during your lifetime anyway. All right! Enough rambling for one night. (Oh wait! Maybe the recycled pigment laden linseed oil is the oil to use in egg-oil emulsion so I don't have to fool with titanium white powder. (sound of gears and cogs turning in brain)).

I can see that I'm not alone when people talk of throbbing headaches and the like. I can vouch for the fact that Turpenoid (and the so-called "Safe Solve non toxic turpentine substitute") put me in a condition where I couldn't bear to move or do anything at all, including see a light source or hear a sound. I never want to feel that again. (Unbelievable). "Safe" and "non toxic" are relative terms in this field.

[Elwell]

Why the hate on water mixable oils? It might be a perfectly good solution for some people. Maybe not in this particular case- but really, what's wrong with them?
A. They're unnecessary.
B. Because they're targeted at hobbyists, they're not very good paint.
C. Thinning oils with water leads to technical problems (wet/dry color shifts, odd paint consistencies) that they don't normally have.
D. They're marketed on the basis of fear, sold as a "safe alternative" to traditional oils, which leads people to massively overestimate the hazards of oil painting.

[arttorney]

I had one tube of that stuff I had gotten by accident one day (Winton). I wasn't paying close attention at the store. I hated it for texture reasons.

[MyOrangeHat]

Slightly off topic but I was just wondering if an air filter would be of any benefit in getting rid of toxic fumes? Or do in home air filters just filter particulated matter and not chemical fumes? Just wondering because if an air filter like the ones they sell on infomercials at 3am would work then I think I'll call the 800 number now. Does anyone know?

[Flake]

D. They're marketed on the basis of fear, sold as a "safe alternative" to traditional oils, which leads people to massively overestimate the hazards of oil painting.

There does seem to be a lot more paranoia about that kind of thing lately. I think I first tried oil paint 15 years ago and I was taught nothing about material safety other than
-Some of the solvents are flammable
-Don't eat the paint
I still somehow managed not to die..
I'd say I inhaled less in the way of crazy fumes in a couple of years of oil painting than in one afternoon spent gloss painting my living room.

Realistically, as a smoker who likes to drink lots of beer and eat lots of red meat "death by oil paint" is not high on my worry list.

[Seedling]

My original tactic for painting with oils in my living room was to keep all fume-emitting materials in the bathroom with the door closed and the fan turned on when they weren’t in use. It helped a lot. But I’ve fallen out of the habit. However, I have also been using less and less turpentine. I use a little when starting a painting, and I swish my brushes at the end and use some to wipe down my palette, but the lid stays tightly on for the bulk of my painting time, with brief exceptions for when I really need to get a brush clean for a light color.

Cleaning my palette is the most fume-emitting part of my painting time. Sometimes I follow up by opening the back door for a few minutes to flush out the smell. That also works pretty well. I will probably continue to do that even when it’s snowy outside.



Flake – heavy metals take years to kill you or harm you. Until you die at the age of 80 from a falling anvil, you can’t claim to have escaped from the consequences of having worked with heavy metals, I’m afraid.

MyOrangeHat – I suspect an air filter wouldn’t help, but I’m just guessing.

[Flake]

Flake – heavy metals take years to kill you or harm you. Until you die at the age of 80 from a falling anvil, you can’t claim to have escaped from the consequences of having worked with heavy metals, I’m afraid.


This is perfectly true however as long as these heavy metals remain on my brush, palette or canvas and not in my mouth, eyes or any open wounds that I may have, I feel reasonably safe.

I'm not cleaning my palette with my tongue y'know.:wink:

[Elwell]

Cleaning my palette is the most fume-emitting part of my painting time. Sometimes I follow up by opening the back door for a few minutes to flush out the smell. That also works pretty well. I will probably continue to do that even when it’s snowy outside.
Palette cleaning:
Tear-off paper palettes don't have to be cleaned.
A glass palette can be scraped totally clean with a knife followed by a razor blade, no washing required, even with dried paint.
For a wooden palette, scape clean with a knife, then rub with a rag dampened with a little linseed. With use, the surface will develop a smooth, neutral patina.

[Flake]

Slightly OT, but from Harold Speeds excellent "Oil Painting Techniques and Materials", on brush care..

The finger nail should be used to get the paint out close to the handle. After washing in soap and water they should be thoroughly dried, and then lovingly sucked to bring the hairs together;and afterwards thoroughly dried before the fire.

That bit did make me think "erm.. no."..

[Seedling]

This is perfectly true however as long as these heavy metals remain on my brush, palette or canvas and not in my mouth, eyes or any open wounds that I may have, I feel reasonably safe.

I'm not cleaning my palette with my tongue y'know.:wink:

I had a professor who told us that either an oil or solvent (I can't remember which, dang it) used in oil-painting allows heavy metals to be absorbed directly through skin. While I think there is a possibility that my professor was wrong, I paint with latex gloves on just to be safe. (Especially since I hope to get pregnant within the next few years. :-P )

Palette cleaning:
Tear-off paper palettes don't have to be cleaned.
A glass palette can be scraped totally clean with a knife followed by a razor blade, no washing required, even with dried paint.
For a wooden palette, scape clean with a knife, then rub with a rag dampened with a little linseed. With use, the surface will develop a smooth, neutral patina.

Thanks for the tips! I'm a bit squeamish about scraping dried paint off of my palette in my current setting, because my workspace is crammed into my living room, and I don’t want paint chips scattered around. I had forgotten about paper palettes. Hmm. They aren’t as romantic as the real thing, but perhaps they are a good solution for the winter.

Do you happen to know anything about the long-term health hazards of turp fumes? All I really know about turp fumes is that they give some people headaches, and I seem immune to that.

. . .lovingly sucked to bring the hairs together . . .

AAAAAAAAAAGH! :-P

[arttorney]

An air filter would have to be separating stuff down at the molecular level to deal with solvent fumes. I wouldn't count on that from a consumer product. It's more likely to require some seriously professional air quality management gear. I don't think HVAC would even help if it recycled the air mass. If it brought in new air and exhausted the old air it would, but that's your basic "well ventilated room."

After my post printed I saw Seedling's question. I went and found this:
2. Effects on Humans: Turpentine is a skin, eye, mucous membrane, and upper respiratory tract irritant in humans. It may also cause skin sensitization and central nervous system, gastrointestinal, and urinary tract effects. The lowest estimated oral dose reported to be lethal in humans is 441 mg/kg [RTECS 1989]. Exposure to a 75-ppm concentration for 3 to 5 minutes irritates the nose and throat, and exposure to a 175-ppm concentration irritates the eyes and may be considered intolerable by human volunteers [Grant 1986, p. 961; Proctor, Hughes, and Fischman 1988, p. 500]. Ingestion of turpentine causes a burning pain in the mouth and throat, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, excitement, ataxia, confusion, stupor, seizures, fever, and tachycardia and may cause death due to respiratory failure [Proctor, Hughes, and Fischman 1988, p. 500]. Toxic glomerulonephritis and bladder irritation, with hematuria, albuminuria, oliguria, and dysuria, have been associated with overexposure to the vapor of turpentine in the past [AIHA 1979]; however, the more purified form of turpentine now in use appears to have decreased the incidence of or to have eliminated turpentine-induced nephritis [Proctor, Hughes, and Fischman 1988, p. 500]. Splashes of the liquid in the eye produce severe pain and blepharospasm; conjunctival redness and temporary corneal erosion may also occur, but these effects are reversible [Grant 1986, p. 961]. Chronic skin exposure to turpentine may produce a hypersensitivity reaction, with bullous dermatitis and/or eczema [Clayton and Clayton 1981, p. 3244; Sittig 1985, p. 907]. A case-control study of workers in particle-board, plywood, sawmill, and formaldehyde glue factories demonstrated a statistically significant association between chronic exposure (longer than 5 years) to terpenes (the principal component of turpentine) and the development of respiratory tract cancers [HSDB 1989].

(before anybody asks, nephritis is kidney disease, not an ancient egyptian queen.)

[Flake]

The folks over at Cennini were discussing air purifiers a while back, seems like they might well help but you'd need an expensive one..
http://forums.studioproducts.com/showthread.php?t=27525
http://www.allerair.com/air-purifiers/air-purifiers-art-5000-vocarb.html

I'll just go with an open window and an extra jumper for now I think.

[Firefly]

I'm a bit squeamish about scraping dried paint off of my palette in my current setting, because my workspace is crammed into my living room, and I don’t want paint chips scattered around.

I don't think you'll have that problem with your palette. I've never had the paint go flying, the paint is always a little gummy and just rolls up on the end of razor blade. If you don't hold your palette while you're painting I think glass is the best way to go. You can put toned and/or colored grounds under your palette bringing them closer to that of your canvas.

I just use a glass cutting board for my palette, it works fine for me.

[Flake]

You can put toned and/or colored grounds under your palette bringing them closer to that of your canvas.


I managed to smash my glass palette -they're not fragile, I'm just clumsy. When I replace it I'll be trying this, shamelessly pinched from the studioproducts guys.
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/671/jivepaletteef5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Jska]

Just wanted to add a note about TURPENOID NATURAL - do NOT dilute your paint with it. This product is strictly for cleaning your brushes, it is a pretty strong solvent and it will stick around in your paint... if you do use it for diluting paint, use less than 25%. I would strongly suggest not using it for mediums at all. I love turp natural because it is safe to pour down the drain (unlike other turps), but usually go with Gamblin GAMSOL for thinning stuff down, its the least toxic product I know of. :)

[MyOrangeHat]

Just wanted to add a note about TURPENOID NATURAL - do NOT dilute your paint with it. This product is strictly for cleaning your brushes, it is a pretty strong solvent and it will stick around in your paint... if you do use it for diluting paint, use less than 25%. I would strongly suggest not using it for mediums at all. I love turp natural because it is safe to pour down the drain (unlike other turps), but usually go with Gamblin GAMSOL for thinning stuff down, its the least toxic product I know of. :)

D'oh! Soooo.....if a noob like me has already finished a painting using Turpenoid Natural to thin my paints what will the effects be? :[

[Seedling]

D'oh! Soooo.....if a noob like me has already finished a painting using Turpenoid Natural to thin my paints what will the effects be? :[

If you're a noob, then it won't matter what happens, because in a year you'll be hiding your paintings from now under the bed anyway. ;-)

[MyOrangeHat]

If you're a noob, then it won't matter what happens, because in a year you'll be hiding your paintings from now under the bed anyway. ;-)

LOL Fair enough. :}

[Flake]

:D

That might be a fun thread "It Came From Under The Bed! -post a really fugly painting/drawing from your past.."

I know I have plenty to choose from..