NSFW, Nudity.

[Izi]

Scroll to the bottom for my last updated version if you can spare a critique.

Original post:

I'm looking for some critiques in the following areas as I will be moving into the polishing phase of this piece soon:

1. Anatomy
2. Skintone/Realism especially on the male figure and the females near the door.
3. Composition
4. Lighting problems, and how to fix them.
5. Feature/Facial detail.

Please note: Clothing has not been finished or added yet.

I can alter the composition by adding blocks of value and color in the way of pillows, throws, candles, etc.

Thanks in advance.


Original Untweaked Thumbnails Before the Visit to CA Critique Center:

[Sepulverture]

I'd say for starters to push your contrast further, and try to define a lightsource more. The two girls in the background seem to have two different lightsources on them. the girl on the left has the highlights on one part of her boobies (the top) while the girl right next to her has the highlights more on the side of her one boobie. Try deciding which direction the lightsource is coming from and work with that. Also for the male figure. His hands and head are too small. Overall the figures look extremely flat due to the lack of contrast, and skintones seem that they could benefit from more variation within the figure. Flush cheecks, more pinkish/redish skin where there should be more blood flowing through them, they look very lifeless now. The detailed environment is very nice though, but it also could use a little more contrast.

[Izi]

Thanks for the fast reply, that gives me a lot to work with. Mmm, back into the breach....

[Oddo]

You have put a lot of effort and time in lighting subtle colors details and texture and those turned out lovely ...but you place all that hard work on a shaky foundation (composition-wise and anatomy-wise ).

You have the painting/color mojo well on its way ). Your line drawing and composition need to catch up :).

[Flake]

Oddos assessment is dead on.

-I'm not keen on the way the foreground figures are cropped mid thigh, feels awkward to me, also most of the action is on the left so the right side feels empty. I think you could crop 20% off the right and not really lose anything.

-A pic with six figures is pretty ambitious, If you haven't already I'd go get reference, lots of it.

-I think a single well defined light source would help pull things together, right now I'm finding it hard to work out exactly where the lighting is coming from.

my 2p worth

[Izi]

Wow 20% crop on the right side, eh? I'll go ahead and try that by putting a black rectangle over on that side. I guess the client can choose which one he prefers.

I am using reference, but the poses are all invented. I'm measuring here, guessing there as I scan my anatomy book, and moving arms and legs as I see fit. I'm having trouble finding all the anatomical problems, despite having a gut feeling they are not quite right. So, while I appreciate Oddos's assessment, what I need is specific problems, like how Sepulverture pointed out how the man's head and hand were too small. I need a better eye than mine. I've been staring at this thing for maybe 125 hours and am losing objectivity. One thing I can see is the dark elf girl's arms, they don't seem right to me, I havn't checked the reference since I began fine modeling. Also the rear figure in the middle...is her torso too long? Any other specifics on the anatomy would be really helpful.

I'm going to try pulling the canvas down and working it so that they are not cut off at mid thigh.

Thank you for the advice, it is very helpful.

[Jason Rainville]

Well, I don't know what kind of ref you're using, but almost every girlie in here looks like she has fake tits. Ultra round and somehow defined all the way around = fake. The girl lying down looks natural though, try getting the rest to follow her example :P

Your figures are really soft, and really flat. Many of the figures lack dark shadows in specific spots that would help make them pop slightly; macho man and his armpits, just inder the hairline of the girls, etc.

I know that the female form is supposed to be much less defined than male, but these girls are getting to the point of 'doughness' Try to make some defenite contours on them (and if you don;t know where certain muscles/contours should be, do some muscle studies to help)

Here's a little bit of an example of pushing the proportions and giving these girls some defenite form:

[Izi]

Thanks that really helps. Believe me, I am putting all of this advice to good use. Cropping/anatomy/lighting/skin color is all getting heavily worked over. I'll post an update in a couple of days, or when I get stuck, whichever comes first. ^_^

The updates are looking great, every piece of advice is working! It's like lubing up my workflow :P

[Seedling]

Hey Lady,
You’ve been busy!

My main impression is that you are biting off more than you can chew with this. Multiple figures in a complex environment from imagination = hard hard hard. You’re going to be fighting so many different technical battles that only parts of it are going to end up being as good as you will want.

You’ve got some very cool stuff going on here! I love the crazy carvings you’ve got going on.

I suggest that for now you take a section of this image with one figure and a small bit of environment, and try working up that into a finished piece. Focus on color and light. Work particularly on carrying the colors of the environment into the skin colors. Reduce your light sources down to one bright primary light source, and perhaps one dimmer secondary of another color. (You could, for example, have some sunlight coming in through a window as your primary, and the light reflected up from where it falls as your secondary. You could find an old-master painting to use as inspiration and color suggestion, too, if you want.) Focus on figuring out how that light effects everything it falls on. That light will be what unifies the composition. It will, in fact, be the most important part of the picture.

Good luck!

[Izi]

Thanks Seedling, that does help. I am using old master paintings as reference for some of the hair tone and skin tone. I'll try taking a second glance through the ARC galleries for lighting. Here is what I have so far from using all of the critiques in the thread above, to the best of my ability. I think the cropping advice was gold, and I did what I could to fix the lighting on skin and especially that damned pillar! (how did I miss that?!!?) Obviously still needs some work. I promise I'll get to fixing the other boobs later...but for now, how does the brunette in the back look so far? (Boob-wise?)

Can someone please explain to me why the rear left figure looks like such a freak?

[elstabo]

the details around the bed really appeal to me,,i think you doing a good job so far,,listen to everyones critique and put it to use,,and you will mold this one a lil further..but so far,,nice work

www.elstabo.com

[Jason Rainville]

Brunette's boob is looking better. Still seems like it's "popping out" but still a definite improvement.

As for the back left figure, for one you have her collarbone too far down (or her actual shoulderline too far up) and her breasts are looking flat. She also has one of the weakest faces out of the bunch, so maybe just spending some more time with her head would help :)

[Tully]

I quite like most of the colours that are showing up in this piece. There's a softness to them that fits the subject matter quite well, I think.

I would say that the main problems you run into in this painting (aside from the ones that the others have already mentioned - anatomy and lighting are issues too) are with perspective and depth.

Perspective, simply, there isn't any. There's no one viewpoint at which we're viewing the whole scene. I suppose you've pushed it to the point of detail here that you would have to repaint vast amounts to fix the problem totally, but do keep this in mind next time you're starting a piece. Linear perspective is your friend! This turtorial (http://studiochalkboard.evansville.edu/draw.html) is pretty good in laying the whole thing out and giving you an idea of how to use it in your painting. Kinda overly technical, but it's important and once you have it it's easy.

The detail around the walls and the colours in them are so lovely, they could do a lot more if the viewer had a concrete idea of where they were actually situated in the room. This is an important consideration while you're planning your piece. Is the viewer seated with the foreground figures, engaged in chatting with them? Is the viewer a fly in the air above them? Are they a mouse in the corner? How would all these different viewpoints affect the impression given by the scene? Tip: when a picture takes the viewpoint of looking *up* at something, it tends to give it a sense of granduer. Looking *down*, it can make the viewer feel detached or the subject small. Looking at an even level is naturally more neutral and can imply anything. Above all, it's important to not simply pick a viewpoint arbitrarily. Think about what impression you want to give and then decide how best to frame your subject to do that.

The depth issues are related to the perspective issues, but in this case there are some problems distinct that proper linear perspective wouldn't address. Namely the level of contrast, detail and some colour you've used. Depth is a sticky thing, but if you keep certain principles in mind, it's not difficult to get it right:

High contrast advances, low contrast recedes
Bright colour advances, dull colour recedes
Warm colour advances, cool colour recedes
High detail advances, low detail recedes
Sharp edges advance, blurry edges recede

These rules are relative and additive. A colour that looks bright in one place may look dull in another, and so it would have different roles to play in each case. If you have bright, high contrast colours they will come forward more than an area that has bright, low contrast colours. Dull, low contrast colours would go back even more.

Notice how, for instance, the area of the floor you have between the black woman and the man.. at the top it's brighter and more saturated than the greeny/grey bottom. See how that makes that area confusing, spatially? The top looks closer to the viewer than the bottom does. That green grey right behind the figures was a good choice, but it should continue to the back wall rather than flip around.

Also remember, overlap is very powerful... something overlapping another will almost always read as though it's in front, but if you overlap poorly chosen contrasts/colours/edges, it will tend to flatten the image rather than give the depth you want.

At the moment, there's one hell of a lot of contrast and detail in that back wall, so that's where my eyes want to linger and look at everything. If you toned it down, blurred it and added more interesting detail and contrast to the foreground, those figures would pop a lot more.

I find, if I blur my vision, the area of highest contrast in the picture is the leftmost woman (blonde elf with blue cloak on her), and that doesn't appear to be what you want to focus on here. She's so fair and light, and she's set upon what appears to be almost pure black in the woman's skirt behind her. Black should almost never show up in something that far from the viewer.. it just attracts too much attention. Save black for your focal point. You'll find if you tone down that whole background, it will still have the same effect you want and it will allow you to focus more on the foreground figures.

Always keep in mind where you want your viewer to pay the most attention and manipulate your picture so that they do what you want.

I may have rambled a bit. Hope it's helpful :)

[Izi]

Awesome, Skully, thank you, that's one hell of a good post. I will use all of your advice.

Elstabo, thanks for the feedback, I'm glad the background is appealing.

Rhineville, thanks for the input, yeah I think I might have to trash that figure's head and rethink it using another pose.

I've definately got my work cut out for me. :)

Thank you everyone so much.

[Izi]

Here is an update. I established a vanishing point. I have done work on the perspective and bringing out the focal point. I added the splash of red behind the male and enhanced the contrast on his face and chest.

Next I am going to work on that ugly girl in the back and add clothing and small details.

See the cylinders in the lower right corner? They are going to be candles. I would like to know a good way to get perspective right on curving/cylindrical objects besides eyeballing it.

Thanks for all the advice, as I hope you can see, it is working!

[zypher18]

Wow, it's looking a lot better already. However, the darker woman to the right seems to have very bright highlights in her hair. Also, don't forget about cast shadows as there don't seem to be any. The blond woman in the back has both sides of her face lit. The guy's pecs seem to be lit from below. His arm as well as the bench behind him should create a shadow across his body. Also, the fur rug on the very right (the really dark one) is ambiguous; add more texture so it doesn't look like a big shadow.

[Flake]

See the cylinders in the lower right corner? They are going to be candles. I would like to know a good way to get perspective right on curving/cylindrical objects besides eyeballing it.


http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3514/loomisep4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Loomis- Successful Drawing, page 30 onwards.

[Jikan]

Um...I'll try to add my two cents. OK, anatomically I see some errors. The one that called my attention, being the pervert I am of course, is the ladies' breasts. Save from the lady lying in the background, the breasts look quite artificial, the kind of round thing you get when some breasts have had operations in them and thus seem to defy gravity. Breasts should fall a little bit, not look really that round (at least real ones).

About the guy, I feel something strange about his torso. I think you should try to define better the shapes instead of going for something that squared, particulary for the chest and the ribs, which look quite blocky.

And that's all.

[Izi]

Thank you both, that is some good stuff!

Now you see, I stared at that tutorial for an hour or so, but I just ended up eyeballing it. I cannot figure this complicated perspective stuff out! It is hell. I feel like Nathan Explosion on that episode "Go Forth and Die" (You know what I am talking about)

[Izi]

Here's the most recent work I've done on it. I'd like some feedback on this, maybe it's finished, maybe not. Let me know what you think.

Full version if you are curious:

http://www.thetengu.com/tolwynn2.jpg

[Seedling]

Much improved.

Compositionally, that blank stretch of floor in the front is not helping the rest of the image. Try tossing in a fancy rug or two, to show the angle of the floor and fill in the composition. And melt those candles a little. :-)

[Izi]

Excellent words Seedling, as usual, thanks I will get to that.

It's so easy to miss such obvious things with a big picture like this.

[Izi]

I put this on the backburner for a few months. Now as I revisit it I am accutely aware of how much my skills have grown since finishing this piece - that always feels good. This was essentially a learning painting.

However I'd like to see it completed, anyone with a keen eye got any more useful tips I can use to charge in on this with?

[zypher18]

just a quick paint over of some anatomy

[Cryoxzonomony]

yea yea cool detail theme although i dont wanna critizise anything coz i know most of stuff here is better than mine i dont care about the "exact" anatomyy

[Izi]

appreciate it Zypher, i do notice my skulls are too long, now, in retrospect...

[dashinvaine]

I like it. I like the ambition of it. The decorations are intriguing, too. Vaguely Hindu Indian, with a bit of Babylon thrown in, perhaps?

There are still problems with the human figures here, in terms of anatomy and detail. They seem no more real or credible than the sculpted figures, and that is a problem. The lighting is also a little unresolved. The same light doesn't seem to be working on all the different characters.

I would suggest using reference photos or real models posing for the real figures, as it is more imprtant that they seem realistic and fully rounded. The man's stomach muscles are too wide, and his neck is ill-defined. Incidentally I wouldn't bother with the tattoo and panties on the reclining figure in the niche as they make her seem too modern, and with the setting a more timeless look would be more suitable. The elven ear on the figure in the foreground also seems out of place. (Also on that figure ther is no sense of a physical form under her drapery, and that's an area needing work. Her other breast should be suggested by the way the material falls). The black girl, meanwhile, seems much too dark and shadowed. Her skin could look a bit shinier too.

I'd like to see you do more pieces like this, next time resolving the design of the building a little more clearly in your head before you start, and paying more attention to perspective. You've focussed on detail here which is nice, but there seems to be insifficent thought to underlying structure. There is no sense that the walls are thick or solid, which might be suggested by deeper window surrounds and edges to the door frame. Similarly with the people, you've made life hard for yourself by concentrating on surface detail before you've got the underlying structure sorted out, in terms of scale, proportion and perspective. It's a mistake I make often enough myself.

I do like it though, nothing like a bit of rich, orientalist decadence. You could be the next Delacroix!

[dashinvaine]

I also noticed that the black woman doesn't fit in the space very well, and that rather than seeming to kneel her legs just sort of vanish half way down. I've done a little draw-over suggesting an alternative form. I think the scale, anatomy and persepctive will be better like this, and she will seem to be sitting on the floor. I've also made the figure in the niche bigger, as she seems to be the same distance from the viewer as the two figures in the doorway, yet was a bit smaller before. Actually looking again I've probably made both figures slighty too large now, but you get the idea, hopefully.

[Izi]

Thank you, you're very kind.

The points you mentioned are valid. The excuse I have is the piece was executed for a client - I would like to make this more artistic and less illustrative, so I appreciate the comments - the elf ears and panties are loathsome.

I'm not sure where my art is headed at the moment - but if I were to redo this I think I might enjoy it more personally if it had no people in it at all...only the hint of life with the candles or a book...

[dashinvaine]

Oh no, it needs the people. It's got great potential, do stick with it.

[chaosrocks]

wow this is damn complex

I admire your willingness to tackle it. I t looks like your lighting is different for each figure. and the figures flatten and stop occupying real space. theres a couple of tangents on the guy's knees that are destroying your spacial realtionships.

on the reclining figure in the back. the hips and shoulders are twisted in relationship to each other, but there is no twist in the body to account for it. I had this same pose in my life drawing session this week. its a difficult one to get right (I didn't).

Part of the coolest hing about this pieces is the patterning on the environment, but your draperies need to be lit or they will flatten everything. at the moment it kind looks like second life...:P

[Izi]

Very helpful Chaosrocks

well here is the first round of corrections

[dashinvaine]

Can't really see what you've changed in accordance with suggestions. There's also a danger of you overworking the background and the carved figures at the expense of the real figures. You need to be bold and bite the bullet, correcting faulty anatomy even if this means the pain of redoing areas of fine detail. It will be worth it because the depicted underlying structure is what makes a composition read in a satisfying way. The surface detail is the icing on the cake. If the cake has collapsed in the middle no amount of decorative icing will hide the fact. You need to try to think more in terms of space and volumes.

[Izi]

Well, there are a lot of other suggestions being offered here dasinvaine, just because i didn't jump in on reworking the forefigure as you suggested does not mean I have not considered it or spent time adjusting other issues.

It's a work in progress, and perhaps it is best to simply take my word for it that I have considered your suggestions and am still working on it...

[Fraz]

The figure at the back left has a really 2 dimensional look to her body. Try adding it better lighting to her stomach.
I would also suggest to make the man more angular. Make his jaw more angular, and try to make his cheek bones angular with better lighting.
The blonde lady, to our left. The eye to our right seems to be too high up, and a bit too far to the side of her face. Bring it into the side of the nose, and make it a tad lower.
The brunette woman at the back is looking a lot better than before. Keep at it!

[Jason Rainville]

You've been at this for a year.... a freaking year and I struggle to see any changes or improvement over the course of this little project. A piece of clothing here, some more light there, less ab defenition around there.... but the image itself looks the same.

I doubt you worked on this steadily over that year, but nonetheless you have to let this go; it's not getting any better, and your skills aren't going to get better by adding or subtracting tiny bits from an overall faulty image.

Scrap this. Go do tons of anatomy/value/perspective studies, and never look back.

[dashinvaine]

:party: Part of me agrees with Rhineville, part of me thinks this piece has great potential still, and could be made really good if you aren't too precious about keeping things as they are and make the corrections required- not just my suggestions but those of everyone else besides. I don't see much point in reloading the image here, moreover, until you have acted upon people's suggestons. It makes it seem like you are ignoring people and carrying on in your own sweet way. I've been criticized for the same thing, so I'm not blameless. Happy anniversary on this one by the way :party:

[Justin Reed]

I've never understood this attitude of "finish a picture and move on". I don't see what's wrong with taking an older picture and fixing it up and making it look better, especially if it's a digital painting since it's so easy to mess with them. I'm sure almost every artist cringes when they look at their older work. I know I do. I love to take those old cringe-inducing pictures of mine and go back over them utilizing the skills I've learned and making them look much better. I say, keep at this one until you're happy with it, even if it takes a decade. You can always put it on hold for a while and come back to it.

As for critiques on this, one thing I notice is that all the noses seem just a bit too long. You should raise them up just a smidge and see how it looks. You should probably raise some of the chins up a bit, too. It's pretty easy to do and it can make a huge diffrence. I've done some pictures that had some crappy faces in them, but, just by shifting an eye or a nose or a mouth over a bit, looked much better. I also recommend widening the guy's jaw a bit to make him look more masculine.

The women reclining in the background could use some more definition on her tit, but the main problem with her is her right arm. You can't see her forearm, which looks odd. You should erase the hand and draw her forearm coming down in front of her with her hand resting on the bed.

As someone above said, the girl in the front needs legs and feet, and the blonde in front needs some legs, too. Also, really dark skin tends to have spots of yellow in some places (cheeks, noses, brows, breasts) and purple in others (eyes, forehead, elbows, knees).

A trick I learned not too long ago was to go over skin with a speckle brush set at a high transparency (I use 85) and shade and highlight. This will give the skin texture and makes it look more real. It works really well on stone, too.

Other than that, I say more definition here and there. It does look better than it did when you first put it up. Keep at it.

[zypher18]

I admire you sticking to this one, but if you are gonna stick to it for an entire year, don't only make small changes at a time. Fixing the lips on a head when the entire pose is wrong doesn't help when later you have to move the whole head. I think you should take the leap and make huge sweeping changes that needs to be done to make the picture work, particularly the poses and anatomy. Since it's digital, you don't have to worry about ruining your picture so go after it. If it were me, I'd wipe on the character completely, save the background, and just work in each figure again, first getting the poses right, then the anatomy, then proper lighting.

[Izi]

You've been at this for a year.... a freaking year and I struggle to see any changes or improvement over the course of this little project. A piece of clothing here, some more light there, less ab defenition around there.... but the image itself looks the same.

I doubt you worked on this steadily over that year, but nonetheless you have to let this go; it's not getting any better, and your skills aren't going to get better by adding or subtracting tiny bits from an overall faulty image.

Scrap this. Go do tons of anatomy/value/perspective studies, and never look back.

:er:

you make a pretty good case there

lol

[Izi]

:party: Part of me agrees with Rhineville, part of me thinks this piece has great potential still, and could be made really good if you aren't too precious about keeping things as they are and make the corrections required- not just my suggestions but those of everyone else besides. I don't see much point in reloading the image here, moreover, until you have acted upon people's suggestons. It makes it seem like you are ignoring people and carrying on in your own sweet way. I've been criticized for the same thing, so I'm not blameless. Happy anniversary on this one by the way :party:

actually I have been working the pose you suggested and experimenting, however a critique is not an excuse to stick your nose into the artist's studio and demand they pay attention to your advice with an unpleasant attitude.

It speaks of unprofessionalism and need for attention. if you don't like what I am doing here then you are welcome to leave. I have no desire to hire a new boss to berate me for things I am supposedly doing wrong in my workflow. now kindly just go find someone else to goad, as it is your attentions are not appreciated in the slightest.

it's really not my problem if people feel ignored now is it?

[Izi]

I've never understood this attitude of "finish a picture and move on". I don't see what's wrong with taking an older picture and fixing it up and making it look better, especially if it's a digital painting since it's so easy to mess with them. I'm sure almost every artist cringes when they look at their older work. I know I do. I love to take those old cringe-inducing pictures of mine and go back over them utilizing the skills I've learned and making them look much better. I say, keep at this one until you're happy with it, even if it takes a decade. You can always put it on hold for a while and come back to it.

As for critiques on this, one thing I notice is that all the noses seem just a bit too long. You should raise them up just a smidge and see how it looks. You should probably raise some of the chins up a bit, too. It's pretty easy to do and it can make a huge diffrence. I've done some pictures that had some crappy faces in them, but, just by shifting an eye or a nose or a mouth over a bit, looked much better. I also recommend widening the guy's jaw a bit to make him look more masculine.

The women reclining in the background could use some more definition on her tit, but the main problem with her is her right arm. You can't see her forearm, which looks odd. You should erase the hand and draw her forearm coming down in front of her with her hand resting on the bed.

As someone above said, the girl in the front needs legs and feet, and the blonde in front needs some legs, too. Also, really dark skin tends to have spots of yellow in some places (cheeks, noses, brows, breasts) and purple in others (eyes, forehead, elbows, knees).

A trick I learned not too long ago was to go over skin with a speckle brush set at a high transparency (I use 85) and shade and highlight. This will give the skin texture and makes it look more real. It works really well on stone, too.

Other than that, I say more definition here and there. It does look better than it did when you first put it up. Keep at it.

In art history we see a number of old masters who held onto work for years touching it up here and there - I forget the name of this one I just was discussing it a few days ago...didn't care for his work so much but is very highly regarded...

Then we have Bougueureau who could churn out a masterpiece in 3 weeks...

but this is just a fun image and as I was cleaning out my folders I was contemplating if it could be transmuted into something more in line with my current work...I did learn *alot* on it so it was useful...

Actually now I do want to take all the people out and put a big dragon in there munching on dead ladies.....


>:D

[dashinvaine]

Talk about attitude! It's really positive and mature to have a go at someone just for trying to help and encourage you.