Ah, crud, help?

[Icon]

It's weird I'm not one to ask for help, in fact it's a bit embarassing
but I reached a point in which I can't come up with
an answer. And since i've had the good fortune to meet and/or talk to some of you, I guess this would be a good place to ask for advice.

ok here goes.

i'm going to a shitty ass school. they just opened up an illustration major, and well they want me in it.
I talked to my animation chairman about it and he told me to change my bachelor's in animation, to an associate and to enter this illustration program. they made it sound like a wonderful program and so I changed.
Unfortunately a lot of promises were broken and instead of being extremely professional it might turn out to be a big experiment. Mind you the
teachers there are wonderful people, but I can't help to feel that i'll just waste my time being a guinea pig.
However to end college with just an associates in animation... feels like it could really harm me in the future.
now here's the real question..what do I do?
There are wonderful schools out there that I would love to study in, but unfortunately I can't even afford half of it...
neither can I leave where I am right now because I made promises and have obligations.

well...I have two options for this next year...suck it in and just learn as much as I can from this illustration program, even though I might not learn as much as I could elsewhere and it will throw me even further into debt...

or, leave that school with my associates and just spend the next year saving money for many two week courses under incredible teachers or workshops elsewhere?

either waste my time or waste a title?

I know some people do amazing things without even going to college, but are those just a lucky few and does it really affect you to not have a bachelor's degree?
Or as long as you work hard, and go out there with a great portfolio, can you get a good job, just as good as anybody with the bachelor's degree?

Well anyways, thanks in advanced guys.

[DavePalumbo]

I don't know what it's like in the animation business, so I can't say for that, but one of the most common phrases I've heard on the subject from fellow painters and illustrators is "nobody has ever actually asked if I have a degree."

The general idea so far as I've experienced (like I said, with illustrators) is that your portfolio does all the real talking.

Which is to say, do whatever you think is going to be the most beneficial to your learning and skills

in my opinion

[strych9ine]

Honestly, one thing I regret is going for a major in illustration rather than straight fine arts. I went to Columbia College in Chicago, and at the point I entered it the illustration program was a big experimental mess and only offered me subpar courses with subpar professors.

The way I see it, you're already neck deep in school debt, probably like me. It's worse to be in lots of debt and feel like you've gotten nothing for it than to add on an extra year of debt and make it worth your while.

The degree, after it's all said and done, means little. It's what you get out of your time there, how you grow and what you take with you that matters. Don't stress, do what feels right...

[Elwell]

Honestly, one thing I regret is going for a major in illustration rather than straight fine arts. I went to Columbia College in Chicago, and at the point I entered it the illustration program was a big experimental mess and only offered me subpar courses with subpar professors.
Interesting, that's the opposite of the situation at a lot of schools. That's why I always tell people to compare departments, not schools.

[Idiot Apathy]

Hmm hmm, well I still have faith in you Icon and I don't even know you @_@.

I'm sure you are more than completely capable of teaching yourself everything you need to know, but I still think you will always need exposure and bumps in the right direction from others. Not sure why you are/were going into animation since you already paint circles around me, a degree in animation I would think is pretty vital to getting a job in animation though.

Money is only as important as what you do with it, can you think of a better purpose for it for yourself than furthering your love of art?

I go to a cheap community college, not exactly the best teachers of course but I think most art departments can really only expose you to new ideas instead of really teach you them from ground up. It's always been about teaching yourself and figuring it out for yourself.

Anyways, just my crummy two cents and they are probably canadian pennies that you can't use anywhere but they are shiny and I hope that helps at least a little.

[Icon]

Dave n Mike: That came quite a shock to me when I went to Montreal and learned that most of the people I admire as an artist tell me that degrees mean nothing. Both you and mike reinforce that belief. I guess in the end it all really depends on what you can personally learn and how far do you take your own skills.

strych9ine: seems like you and me are almost on the same boat. :/ but yes, another year of school, especially with a new degree, man oh man , my pockets will forever be empty for a place that I seriously don't think I will learn much at all.

Elwell: when I hunt down for another school to go to, i'll check it out. :/ I've also heard a many stories of places in which the illustration major is wonderful but the fine arts programs are a disaster, and vice versa.

Idiot Apathy: awh ;.; It's ok! I have faith in a lot of people here too...and some I have met , others are still words in a forum!( people behind the screens and such! :P) Thank you for the thought. It gives me something to think about. I do agree that in the end it's all about personal effort...I've seen some kids that go to Ringlings and come out with nothing, because they really did not care. I guess in the end as long as I push myself anywhere is fine. You have made my decision harder sir :(

Great replies everyone! Thank you! I'm still unsure, but at least all of you will reinforce my decision made. I truly think perhaps the best for me is to leave school. it seems a bit frightening but as long as I keep studying at whatever I do , I think it should be ok. Who knows, maybe even leave for a better school next year. I think that would be the best than spending so much money on a place where I still learn more on my own than anything else. Again thank you all, much love! <3

[Idiot Apathy]

Ack! Sorry if I made it harder for you, I am in the same boat after all. Important decision, just keep in mind all that truly matters is being happy!

Good luck!

[Steph Laberis]

I can't say one way or another if your school illustration program will be wasting your time... but in terms of illustration vs. animation, I'd say go for illustration. From what I've gathered in the 2D animation industry, illustrators and good designers tend to get more mileage at studios than animators alone. Most of the concept stuff and styling is done in the US while the hard work and animation goes overseas.

What field are you ultimately looking to get into?

[Jason Manley]

Just come out and study with Dobsky and the others at the ca atelier. If you want a job and multiple options..as well as the art scene, you will not do better. Your work is to the point where you could do what is needed in further studies.

More than half the people at MB (or any other major entertainment studio) have no degrees at all. Nox, Coro, Me, Smellybug, Marko, etc..etc... The degree will only help you if you want to teach full time at an accredited university, or you want to go to japan to work. No one outside of that will ever ever ask you for your degree.


J


It's weird I'm not one to ask for help, in fact it's a bit embarassing
but I reached a point in which I can't come up with
an answer. And since i've had the good fortune to meet and/or talk to some of you, I guess this would be a good place to ask for advice.

ok here goes.

i'm going to a shitty ass school. they just opened up an illustration major, and well they want me in it.
I talked to my animation chairman about it and he told me to change my bachelor's in animation, to an associate and to enter this illustration program. they made it sound like a wonderful program and so I changed.
Unfortunately a lot of promises were broken and instead of being extremely professional it might turn out to be a big experiment. Mind you the
teachers there are wonderful people, but I can't help to feel that i'll just waste my time being a guinea pig.
However to end college with just an associates in animation... feels like it could really harm me in the future.
now here's the real question..what do I do?
There are wonderful schools out there that I would love to study in, but unfortunately I can't even afford half of it...
neither can I leave where I am right now because I made promises and have obligations.

well...I have two options for this next year...suck it in and just learn as much as I can from this illustration program, even though I might not learn as much as I could elsewhere and it will throw me even further into debt...

or, leave that school with my associates and just spend the next year saving money for many two week courses under incredible teachers or workshops elsewhere?

either waste my time or waste a title?

I know some people do amazing things without even going to college, but are those just a lucky few and does it really affect you to not have a bachelor's degree?
Or as long as you work hard, and go out there with a great portfolio, can you get a good job, just as good as anybody with the bachelor's degree?

Well anyways, thanks in advanced guys.

[demented]

oof - know how you feel mate. Entered a design school with the aim of learning to draw and become a concept developer, and then they scrapped the concept development subject (pretty much the only subject that mattered). Payed around $7000 for my first year (that = a shitload of money in SA). Currently me and a small buncha others are petitioning it.

I'm with Jason on this one (how could I not?). Sounds like a great option to me.

ciao dude, hope it works out for you man.

- d.

[Rebelismo]

Just come out and study with Dobsky and the others at the ca atelier. If you want a job and multiple options..as well as the art scene, you will not do better. Your work is to the point where you could do what is needed in further studies.

More than half the people at MB (or any other major entertainment studio) have no degrees at all. Nox, Coro, Me, Smellybug, Marko, etc..etc... The degree will only help you if you want to teach full time at an accredited university, or you want to go to japan to work. No one outside of that will ever ever ask you for your degree.


J

Speaking of the MB school, any new information on what's going on with it?



Iconophobian, which art schools did you have in mind? How much does this current school cost you, if you dont mind me asking?
In my experience the dedication/knowledge of the teacher is not proportionate to the amount of money paid for tuition. If you can find a good teacher anywhere, stay with that person.
If you can't find a good teacher, then have your library order all kinds of materials that would be helpful.

[bwkeough]

from what I've seen of your illustration work, there's not much more that they would be able to teach you.

the majority of what makes the good illustrators great is self-taught/mastered/explored. Schools teach how to take your own photo reference, composition, value & color, narrative after that...it's up to you.

If the department has a kick-ass staff that will really guide you without hindrance...then maybe. otherwise, take off and seek out working professionals to study with.

edit: oh, and DS says he's gonna have some kinda illustration tutorial vids on his website, what else do you need? :)

[Jason Manley]

from what I've seen of your illustration work, there's not much more that they would be able to teach you.




I disagree entirely...but I suppose that would depend who "they" are as instructors.

The CA/MB Atelier program is still happening. I expect the site will launch this weekend with more information.


J

[Icon]

oh my, lot's of replies when I wasn't looking! Again many thanks for taking the time , I appreciate it ^^.

steph: well, the only reason i'm finishing my associates it's because I am a quarter away of finishing it. I wasn't so sure on what exactly I wanted when I entered college but mid-way through (CA had a lot to do with this one) I knew I wanted to do either Illustration or Concept art, and not animation, but at the time it was a bit too late. I'm happy I went through it, as I learned a lot of things like storyboards, animatics, flash, premiere, after effects, and 3d. Well, long story short, I'm aiming for illustration or concept art. :3 (man I talk a lot)

Jason: Wow! That would be quite the honor, however, I have a million and one obligations this specific year, it would be extremely selfish of me to just pack and go,and well, I have no real financial backing so yeah. But believe me , Next year I will apply the first day you say "I think i'll go post on CA about the school this term" bam! I'm there!
Mainly because I learned so much in Montreal, in just a couple of days listening to all of you, I learned more than my entire past school year! So yeah, it's that important!anyway before I continue babbling , thank you for letting me know the use of a degree.i don't think i'll be doing my living in japan anytime soon...so maybe later i'll invest in a bachelor's...right now I want to see where determination and extreme self study will take me :P


demented: Oh no!I'm so sorry! I hope it works out for you! It's similar to my program as well..It started out with a bunch of promises and now that they are actually starting suddenly those promises are downsized to well... nothing much at all!

Rebelismo: I completely agree! I guess I just wanted to check out a couple of places that i know have some amazing teachers! SCAD, Ringlings or Cal arts ( i think it was cal arts..). But i'm not thinking of moving to these any time soon! :P

bwkeough: I'm grateful for the compliment, but in all reality I believe there is much for me to learn and there are plenty people out there to teach me. I'm not dissing my teachers as artist or as teachers, it's just the overall department management, and cost is just not worth it. But yes, i'm learning that there are other better alternatives out there, and possibly dan's glorious videos might be one of em' lol.


Ted: Yeah, I was getting that feeling too. This whole idea of degrees not being worth much really hit me in Montreal, man was that trip worth it!

again thank you all for the replies, i'm all sorts of grateful!

edit: awh ted erased the message! :(

[Ted]

Iconophobian,

Sorry I posted then erased...I'm pretty tired right now and got self concious that I wasn't making since. I just said something that added to the point that everyone has already made (probably will never need a degree).

It might help to remember that it is the entertainment industry. Degrees aren't important because designers have the convenience of demonstrating our achievement in some sort of book or web space. A potential client or employer can see if you suck in a moment. We have the best evidence to see where we stand and push to qualify ourselves for whatever position we desire. Hope that helps.

[Rebelismo]

Iconophobian, check your pm.

[bwkeough]

I disagree entirely...but I suppose that would depend who "they" are as instructors.

exactly. when she said it was a brand new major, my immediate assumption was that the staff wouldn't likely be stacked with active professionals at the top of the field. I didn't mean to imply she had nothing left to learn, just that she's at a level where she might not get as much out of it as she hopes and that she might be better off pursuing that education elsewhere. hopefully someplace that can't be described as "shitty ass." :D

[Blue]

I don't know what it's like in the animation business, so I can't say for that, but one of the most common phrases I've heard on the subject from fellow painters and illustrators is "nobody has ever actually asked if I have a degree."This is exactly what many many professionals and recent graduates have told me.

In the end, its really about your portfolio. It is hard to grade art.. my father (an art teacher) complains to me often about it.. he can only grade "progress" which for every student is at a different pace. It's why so many students walk away from art classes with an "A+" for effort.

If you can get the training elswhere, even if just in workshops, you'll be better off. I was in the same boat as you a year ago at an art school. i transfered after getting an associates in illustration into another school to persue a bachelor's in business (effectively adding 4 years of scool on...) A business degree actually matters in the professional world.. well the degree itself, better to say. Whereas I can further my ability with Gnomon dvds and activities here on CA (i'm just starting to do that now actually), aswell as attending life drawing sessions in my current school (even though the art department sucks.. all i need is a model, really).

So all in all, what matters is the quality of your portfolio, not the degree itself. As artists, our path is less "laid out" as it is for every other profession. Even with your degree, a kid out of highschool who didn't bother with college at all could get the job over you...pending his work is better. :)

[darkwolfb87]

Don't forget books! There is so much info out there, whether by going to libraries, borrowing them from others, or buying them yourself, that is non-existant in other kinds of resources. Sitting down and opening up every single book on a library shelf works wonders :)

[Puck]

The degree will only help you if you want to teach full time at an accredited university, or you want to go to japan to work.

I did a Bachelor of Fine Arts at Uni, and the only thing I got out of it was the time to paint and meet other people who like art. The degree means nothing, only the portfolio matters.

In fact, at the animation company where I used to work, we were reviewing candidates for a texturing / matte painting position and one of the potentials had just completed a Doctorate of Fine Art. Without even looking at the applicant's portfolio, the CV was chucked in the 'rejected' pile... on principle.

What good is a PhD is fine art unless you really love research or want to get a job teaching?

[Icon]

I just wanted to say thanks guys! :P Because of your help and well taking the time to respond i've come up with a decision. I'm not wasting my money or time in a school that's not gonna offer me what I need, so I'll just continue on with my independent study. I'm lucky enough to be a part of Concept art, which will keep me motivated no matter what. So thank you all! Much love!

[maxetormer]

Best of luck!!! I do agree on the lack of importance of a dregree,
but I belive in the value of training, so I would never go to school to get
the degree I would go to school to learn something that I thought
the teachers and program in that place could teach me, god knows I will
not have the necesary means to study anywere I really want for the next
10 years, I have the motivation and I study hard at home but I cant afford
studing in any of the schools that I think could teach me what I want to
learn, and the schools I can aford dont have the any knowledge I would
need, so my options are to keep studing on my own and saveing money so
that maybe in five or ten years iv got enough money to go to San Francisco
or Firenze.

So my point is this, degrees might mean jack, but training
does not, (maybe not to every person, because some ppl have the
ability to learn pretty much all they need on their own),
but to do some specific type of work, or to attain an specific level
of proficiency, most ppl would need to be trained,or you could teach
your self everything, but it could take the double of time to learn it
(depening on your abilty to understand things) Carl Dobsky for example
went to a number of studios and ateliers, he might no have a
degree, but he sure got training :D

I do belive every one can learn the basic principals of drawing
and design, but ppl like say, Marko that learned all by their own
are a rare mix of ability to absorb information and the access
to it, (even he had to study anatomy), I dont belive however that
all ppl can learn those principals entirey on their own, that has to
to be wedged within your own experiences and personal ability,

I belive you WILL make it, in any arena you would wanna work on,
becuase your work is pretty impressive allready, and your drive is great,
so BEST OF LUCK on your future endevours, your one heck of an
inspiration!! :D I just wanted to share my personal thoughts on the
matter of schools, training and degrees, I hope my rant
didnt bore you ;) see ya!