Paganism , Nature/shamanistic religions

[corky13]

uh uh uh...another thread about religion...lets see how long this one survives.

I was wondering how the users of CA feel about paganism/alternativ religions or if there are even some "followers" at the bords.
I`m myself believing in what was able to be delivired from the early-medieval scandinavians. It`s mostly a reinvention of the religion because just so many has been lost over the centuries and the term thats most comon for it is "Àsatrù ".

Sadly iwhen i brought up this topic on other boards/people i often get replies full of prejudice. e.g. "Shamanism ? So youre a bunch of drug-taking hippies ?" "Paganism is just some childish mambo-jambo for D&D and heavy-Metal nerds" and my all-time favourite moronic reply = "Northern germanic beliefes ? You nazi-scum !" gawds i hate it -_-

regards
corky13

[Shamagim]

I think those were interesting and had their own ideas about how to live life, they also give really nice ideas for concepts.

Is hard to find people willing to follow the old pagan religions nowadays, because people want to belong to bigger groups in order to feel more accepted about their own beliefs.

The "paganism is just some childish mambo-jumbo for D&D" is because this old religions had to disappear to make way for the ones who respectively replaced them. You can only destroy a religion by ridiculizing it or killing all his members ( last one is the most unlikely to happen).


To know old pagan religions is necessary to understand the ones who "ate" them. For example Druidic religion was ridiculized and they pointed out exaggerated claims without really understanding it, and it wasn´t that much of a mystical religion, it was closer to " trying to find a reasonable explanation", but without all the resources we have today.


So summing up: I don´t really believe in them, but I do read about them a lot, to find interesting ideas to concept and just because I don´t really know much about them and I´d like to :).

I bet this one will not have 3 pages :)

[young paddy1]

From what I can tell of most shamanistic and pagan religions, most of them started out as a way to keep the tribe healthy.
Don't crap near the spring or the water spirits will be unhappy and have a go.
Ceremonies helped the local groups keep in touch and in certain cases acted to aid those people who'd had a rough time over the last season.

If taken in this way most of these religions have things we can learn from them, there's no point dismissing the old religions completely when they have many beneficial things to say.

[brokk]

If I believe in Shamanism, will I get Lightning Shield?

...

bad joke.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

What do you mean 'alternative'? Aren't you favoring the major religions yourself by calling the religions with less followers 'alternative'? Just a thought.

I think Hinduism (earlier) is the most... interesting. Lots of sexy Yaksi and Dakinis. As someone said, religions and mythology often have interesting material for us concept artists to base designs on. Christianity however is boring as fuck. Hesekiel got some shit going there for a while but the rest of them just dropped the ball. "Asa tro" as we called it here had some nice characters, but it was pretty unsympathetic aswell.

[PHATandy]

i love the way refer to religions to concepts, designs and styles - its so artsy, yet its so horribly true.
When i think of characters - the first thing i think of is what kinda of religious background does he come from - since all civilisations were based around religions - it has a whole 'look' behind it. With this take - the wierder/more alternative religious backgrounds are interesting.

That said, i think anybody is totally free to think what they what - you shouldnt have your thoughts pinned down and judged.
I dont beleive in any religion at all, but im accepting that anyone can have there own beliefs.

[Blue]

What do you mean 'alternative'? Aren't you favoring the major religions yourself by calling the religions with less followers 'alternative'? Just a thought.


Its only a religion when a large number of people believe in it, otherwise its called a cult. Interesting thought, isn't it?

As far as favorism...well if it more popular doesn't that make it more favored by the people?

Something like that...i'm just stirring the pot. :)

If I believe in Shamanism, will I get Lightning Shield?

Yes, but sadly humans have sucky racials, you only get 3 charges on the lightning shield...shoulda rolled a troll. :(

[markwagner]

I imagine therefore I am.

I had an experience back in art school days that changed my life to its core. A friend was going crazy one night, as I listened to her talk I started to get scared because she was making sense. Together we woke up into the multiple worlds that all religions point to, where yoga, fasting, prayer, and all tribal ways connect.

I had always had a good imagination, they would tell me as a kid in high school. Now is college I fell into this big black hole into a world where there was all this old Native American Indian ways around. A close friend gave me a book and said I think you will like this (same friend - she was also the first person to ever tell me about Sundance). The book was Michael Harner's "The Way of the Shaman." I liked the art on the cover.

I also liked the book, like what I read, loved what the essence of the book was about. Ten years later my art was on the cover of the same book when it was reprinted.

What I gather about shamanism is that it existed in every tribal culture in the world in it's own organic way. The shaman was a man or woman who "journeyed" into the other worlds and came back with information for the people. Animals talked to them, showed them plants that could heal, they got shown a dance, shown something to draw...communications happened. Our kid’s books are filled with shamanic images of talking animals, even the church is loaded with this old reference of lambs, lions, and doves that represent a connection to spirit.

I sense this is what many artists, musicians; dancers are doing today in these times. Keeping the torch burning, making pictures of magical beasts, making music that we drop into and ride on, journey with. Keeping the sacred alive, keeping the imagination oiled, keeping the ecstatic available to the people as a key to our evolution.

This CA site is stuffed with magic, spirit, and images from the imagination. The only difference from an old tribal shamanic culture is that the old ways have no separation of the imagination and reality. The difference is that most of us don't get that what we make is real, and if it were, what then would we choose to create - that's interesting, that's why I am here now.

~M

[the_blur]

uh uh uh...another thread about religion...lets see how long this one survives.

I was wondering how the users of CA feel about paganism/alternativ religions or if there are even some "followers" at the bords.

Well, you know how Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the usual ridiculous crap?

Wicca, Druidism, ancient German, Summerian or babylonian belief systems are just trendy, alternative ridiculous crap.

[the_blur]

Its only a religion when a large number of people believe in it, otherwise its called a cult. Interesting thought, isn't it?

When 1 person believes something ridiculous and impossible, you say they are delusional.

When a small group of people do it they are a cult.

When a larger group of people do it, you call it a religion and then you have to start "respecting their religious beliefs".

[LaPalida]

respect my athoriti!

[JERI]

I'm deeply disgusted that no one has yet to even mention Him in a discussion on pagan religions.

http://www.vestaldesign.com/vestalblog/uploaded_images/Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage-720112.jpg

[Ilaekae]

I'm an Earth Mother Pagan that's fairly close to most of the beliefs of the modern Wiccans. I have been for nearly 50 years, and my grandmother and great grandmother were also their entire lives.

AND...I consider myself neither trendy nor alternative, you pompous little shithead...said with the utmost love, respect and tolerance toward all pompous little shitheads.


:P

[the_blur]

AND...I consider myself neither trendy nor alternative, you pompous little shithead...said with the utmost love, respect and tolerance toward all pompous little shitheads.

:P

lol, w/e turns your crank gramps =)

I am just not wired to believe shit without proof I guess.

If you're not alternative I guess there must be a lot of "Earth Mother Pagans" around...What percentage market share would you say you guys have?

I'm not sure if you are a supernaturalist, but if you are, your beliefs are nonsense just like all other supernaturalist religions. Not a knock, just a statement of fact.

Peace!
Cheers!

[Ilaekae]

"I'm not sure if you are a supernaturalist, but if you are, your beliefs are nonsense just like all other supernaturalist religions. Not a knock, just a statement of fact."

Hell, I got no problem with that, you little gopher. Any true believer who can't laugh at his own beliefs is an idiot...

:P

[Shamagim]

There are, is a registered religion and it has a low percentage.

I beleive theres 2 types of Wiccan or neo-pagans, the earth mother pagans and the horned god pagans ( i think).

Interesting points of view from that religion, not exactly trendy.

I´m going to read about it again, there was gold in there for concepts ( no offense Ilaekae)

[Ilaekae]

We don't worry about market share. We're gourmet and eco-friendly. :)

[That fat kid]

If it isn't tax exempt, it isn't a religion.

[Ilaekae]

Tax-exempt, huh? Well, I guess that explains the current Republican Party in the US...

...and Shamagin, I would never take offense over something like my religion. I know it has a lot of exotic imagery connected to it. Just don't call me a devil worshipper like the shit-head fundamentalists do. They seem to forget that Satan is an almost exclusively Christian concept when it furthers their crusades. There is no Satan in my religion...because I'm about as far as you can get from the Judeo-Christian mythos and still be on this planet...

Personally, except for the rabidly brainless US fundamentalists, I enjoy studying and talking about religion. It's always amazed me how similar and yet disparate the concepts are so many isolated cultures have come up with to explain their universe and their place in it.

[s.ketch]

for jah's sake why cant we be tolerant. the_blur: grow up. To correct you considering somthing 'nonsense' is an opinion not a fact. Saying that the pagan beleifes have no scientific proof so therefore are void means nothing. It would be nice if you look up what science and pure science is then maybe youll see what I mean. Also youre trying to classify religions as trendy. Stop its making you look stoopid. It seems you hate anything that deals with beleiving in the unknown or having faith so maybe religion isnt a good topic for you. k thanx.

heres a concept: just because sombody's beleifs arnt the same as yours, dosnt make them wrong. I know its hard to grasp, but please open up your mind.

now, i beleive in the pagan religions even though i do not practice them. I beleive alot of their gods and godesses are actual aspects of nature described in a religious manner. I also find their beleifs interesting. So i support paganism.

[Shamagim]

Don´t worry, my only religion is to draw, I always try to look at things objectively so I can place them in a context ;)

[LaPalida]

heres a concept: just because sombody's beleifs arnt the same as yours, dosnt make them wrong. I know its hard to grasp, but please open up your mind.

Funny you mention it. I opened my mind once, a bit too much methinks, and ... it leaked out. Go figure.

[s.ketch]

Funny you mention it. I opened my mind once, a bit too much methinks, and ... it leaked out. Go figure.

oh i get it, you opened it and it came out yeah thats clever. :rolleyes: I seen your posts on the other thread. Now that we know you oppose anything that promotes toleration of beleifes that contradict your own, you can stop posting now. k thanks.

Shamagim: peace man, thats the best religion of all.

[Quinster]

Religion is a very interesting topic, but also very touchy. As the great Linus VanPelt once said: "There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: religion, politics, and the Great Pumpkin." But on "paganism" there seems to be a new emergence of these "pagan" relgions. I think, given time, they will become more acceptable. Heck, I got a friend who's Wicca (or Wiccan). But its really a shame when people get bashed for their beleifs. I see no problem with religion as long as it promotes good nature over all.

peace man, thats the best religion of all
True dat, brother.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/
This is a really good website! It takes a neutral standpoint and has good information on many, many religions (and cults).

[corky13]

@Prometheus
My english is just too poor to think of a better word than "alternative".

@Ilaekae
I guess we all have to live with those idiots. But they are always good for a laugh or two ^^ And you`re right with "Any true believer who can't laugh at his own beliefs is an idiot" :)

I never heard the "satanist" prejudice (or at least not often) but around here you can always laugh at peeps who claim you are a neo-nationalsocialist. But i wonder where that come from <_< all i know is that Heinrich Himmler attempted to create a new form of "germanic religion" but its a fact that Hitler stoped that because he was a christian <_<. Maybe its because i tend to wear leather boots ?

the_blur
well...i feared that someone like you will post and claim paganism and other/all religions as nonsense. But to echo ilaekae again ="Any true believer who can't laugh at his own beliefs is an idiot"

@Shamagim
everything well said :)

@brokk
no , but we grant you a fine place in Hotel Helheim after your death , but be careful the get of the road before you reach nastrand..there ain`t no party there , just some dirty dog and a lizard with no table manners :P

[mwillustration]

corky13,
way to bring this up.
good idea for another thread.
(it may be less polarizing than the last thread we were involved in, hopefully)
;)

thanks for your respectfulness btw.
it's great when you can disagree and still respect one another.

[Fipse]

Corky, the problem with the neo-paganism - at least here in Germany - is that there are really some nazi-folks around. I´ve got quite a lot contact (due to my reenactment stuff) to Neo-Pagans (Asatru and whatever) who really have got problems to get other people see the distinction to e.g. neo-atlantian stuff.

Problem is for example that you´ve got on on the one hand viking reenactor who do Asatru, too and on the other hand viking reenactors who havet Ostara and other stuff and who are closely connect to rightwinged ideas. For someone who hasn´t got a clue what´s going on it´s difficult - and even for me who´s got some neo-pagan friends it´s a problem because the neo pagan "scene" is splitted in so many factions as a comic-forum.

Fipse
(who made up his own stuff)

[corky13]

@Fips
okey my english aint too well as already said so i write in german aight ? sorry folks...(its regarding the situation in germany and austria anyway so you wont miss much i guess)

Das mit den Problemen in Deutschland ist mir bekannt und ähnliche gibt es auch hier in Österreich. Eigentlich hätte ich selber darauf kommen müssen (hach ja , die macht zu verdrängen ^^ ). Leider sind die Medien ja alles andere als Unvoreingenommen diesbezüglich wodurch es schwer fällt der weitläufigen Meinung über Paganismus ein besseres Bild aufzuerlegen. (man erinnere sich nur an einen gewissen Polyluxbericht übers Ragnarök-Festival)
Ich denke hier ist eines der Grundprobleme das man der Bevölkerrung nur schwer klarmachen kann das Neo-Faschos oft nen hang zum Paganismus haben und nicht umgekehrt das Paganisten teil einer neu-faschistischen Bewegung sind...

Okey a short translation = I was saying that im aware whats going on in the scene in germany and austria but i was to comfortable to accept the facts. Then i wrote about the thoughts of the people regarding paganism and that the media isn`t really helping in that case. At last i said it would be good if people realise that neo-nazis tend to be paganists but not that you have to be one as a paganist...

@mwillustrations
;) so whats your view on paganism :) ?

[Shamagim]

nuuuuuu, don´t ask him...please...


Another fight and I´ll just fill the whole thread up with funny banana man pics, I´m willing to spend that much time making them.

[LaPalida]

oh i get it, you opened it and it came out yeah thats clever. I seen your posts on the other thread. Now that we know you oppose anything that promotes toleration of beleifes that contradict your own, you can stop posting now. k thanks.

lol. Actually I was quoting James Randi right there but you wouldn't know anything about that anyway so I won't bother to explain. Toleration of beliefs and respect for beliefs are two different things one of which I have and one of which I lack. Respect is earned. Sorry.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

heres a concept: just because sombody's beleifs arnt the same as yours, dosnt make them wrong. I know its hard to grasp, but please open up your mind.

Indeed, that would be a strange fallacy (people's beliefs changing what's true or false), and it would also create all sorts of paradoxes since people tend to disagree! Things would be true and false at the same time, constantly changing with 5 billion people's competing beliefs!

How then can we decide what is true and what is false, if belief doesn't count? Oh oh I know! Not-beliefs! We disregard what people believe and just look at... you know, the other stuff, logical shizzle. 1+1=2 stuff.

If we we're to make up an entity that is outside the domain of logical reasoning, then all we have left to determine whether this entity is true or false is belief, but as we already have established, believing in something doesn't affect the validity of it...

Phew! Glad we got that one out of the way!

[corky13]

@Shamagim
In the opening-post i said im interested in the view on paganism by the CA-users , that includes mwillustrations to and im always curious what people with different beliefes think about paganism...it opens the possibility to learn for me and him if he is interested in the topic ^^

@LaPalida
no one (at least not me :D ) has ever demanded more than just tolerance ^^ But just out of curiosity = what would it take to earn your respect towards other believes ?

@all
be nice buddys..we`re all human...no need to cut someones throat or start a virtual holy war ;)

[Shamagim]

corky13...of cource I didn´t meant any offence against mwillustration, I just hope nobody here is looking for a rematch ( as I just explained to him in a PM just seconds ago :) )

There is no ground for one in a thread about religious tolerance though................................. or at least i hope so.

[corky13]

woops :( sorry Shamagim , i misunderstood that .

[s.ketch]

Indeed, that would be a strange fallacy (people's beliefs changing what's true or false), and it would also create all sorts of paradoxes since people tend to disagree! Things would be true and false at the same time, constantly changing with 5 billion people's competing beliefs!

How then can we decide what is true and what is false, if belief doesn't count? Oh oh I know! Not-beliefs! We disregard what people believe and just look at... you know, the other stuff, logical shizzle. 1+1=2 stuff.

If we we're to make up an entity that is outside the domain of logical reasoning, then all we have left to determine whether this entity is true or false is belief, but as we already have established, believing in something doesn't affect the validity of it...

Phew! Glad we got that one out of the way!

I see your point. :teeth: My only thing is that religion is not logical. Religion is about what sombody beleives, not whether its 'true' or not (therefore sombody can beleive in a non-truth and be right to themself, even though they are wrong to another). Many religions contain beleifs that contradict reality yet exists within it. Using logical resoning to figure out(or validate) somthing illogical, seems odd to me.

Beleifs and thoughts are not confined to physics or arithmatic. If I say the second 1 in your math problem is a variable that = 2 then 1+1=3. Im not wrong, I just seen the problem in a differnt way. I think its the same situation with reality. Where life is the problem and we all see differnt ways to solve it. Theres so many possiblities and veiws that it dosnt cause reality to collapse because two people beleive seemingly oppisite things.

Opposition was created by humans. We think in terms of opposites: right and wrong, left and right, black and white. Even if you look to nature, night and day, water and fire but thats just our intellect trying to sort things out so we can understand them easier. What we dont realize is that night and day are not oppisites, they exist together, they are parts of the same system of life. If one truly beleives that there is a god or somthing else out there, and another truely beleives there isnt, the universe dosnt explode and theres no reason why the two beleifs cant exist together in harmony.

Now please understand, im not saying your post was wrong, im just trying to clarify my views. Everybody who has posted has a differnt soloution to the problem. This is just the way I see my existance, oh well if it dosnt coincide with anyone elses. :confident

[Ilaekae]

Religion is a way to link to that which is beyond you.

My wife is a Baptist, which is fairly biblical-based in the US, but she lately has trouble going to church because she can't stand the hipocracy of being among people who are so politically motivated, and who seem to spend most of their time ridiculing others. A few weeks ago, she ws riding one of her horses up a park trail and came into a little section that was, from her description, an artist's delight. The light, fog, mood and stillness were perfect, and she just sat there for 15 minutes looking at everything. To her, this was "church" at a level so far beyond what she experienced before that she hasn't gone back. She's still a Baptist, but she realized that her vision of God now is something that others wouldn't exactly understand...

I'm what I am not because I need some supernatural being to hold my hand, but because there are things that I touch, see and hear that just cannot be accepted in a purely human way. They elevate me to a level of awareness and appreciation that is just a tiny bit beyond my comprehension. Touching a piece of wood, listening to the wind in the woods while I work, and watching a dumb cat too old to know better suddenly become a kitten because a bit of fuzz or one of my brushes crosses his vision.

I don't know if there's really a Goddess out there, or a God, that maybe I should be paying more attention to or not. But every once in a while, it's nice to say "Thank you" for some small delight, and feel that it wasn't a wasted effort...

[That fat kid]

The actual definition of paganism is the worship of many OR(!) NO gods. Basically, if you're not a muslim, a christian, or a jew, all three of which are the same religion slightly tweaked for cultural differences, you're a devil worshipper, a witch, a barbarian, a heathen, and, above all else, a pagan. And that's only if you believe in higher powers of nature. There's a whole 'nother list aimed at those who don't believe in other worldly things.

....or you're a scientologist.....

Luckily, they can't burn people at the stake for disagreeing anymore, eh?

[s.ketch]

Ilaekae, thats one of the best posts ive seen on here so far, and its one i agree mostly with religion wise. Thankyou.

[corky13]

So well said Ilaekae :)
...who needs a dead cell, like a church, when nature "feels" so free and wonderful ? (tho drawing churches (especially gothic) can be fun ^^)

Theres nothing like a walk through the wood to think about something and to refresh from the days in the city. :)

[dogfood]

I follow Ilaekae around these boards for a reason...


While not deep or of great revelation, it occured to me that people's beliefs are most strongly impacted by their experiences and are reactions to these experiences; since no two people have the same experiences, nor react to them in the same way, it seems that there should be a lot less amazement that different folks believe different things in different ways.

Vice getting uncomfortable by encountering different views, I find it fascinating.

I think I would be a lot more skeptical if someone claimed to believe in the exact same thing I did.

"Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac? And I just don't trust someone going the same speed as me." -George Carlin

[Prometheus|ANJ]

Dogfood, I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Yes, people are shaped by their environments, including criminals and people believing that Pi is 4.64. People certainly have a right to believe in whatever rows their boat and makes them happy, but if they start acting badly or making Pi=4.64 threads then they might get rebuked and have no leg to stand on, because really, as we all know, Pi is EXACTLY one noodle and Pirates were actually peace-loving explorers and spreaders of good will who would distribute candy to children.

[dogfood]

No, I'm not talking about abberrant behavior or freaks who don't love Pi. What I'm saying is that our mental make-up causes each of us to look at the world with differently shaded glasses. Now, we share a lot (most of us being able to claim human ancestry), so those shades should be subtle, but they will rarely be the same.

And we can certainly start a very deep discussion about what consistitutes harmful behavior (from poking spears in people to using CFC's), but as long as we understand that "different" doesn't automatically mean "wrong" or "bad", I think there's a chance of expanding the bounds of tolerance.

Man, that opens up a whole other discussion. When what's socially acceptable to one culture is considered heinous behavior in another, where does one turn? On the extreme side, many canabalistic tribes felt that eating one's enemies would imbue the victor with the eaten's vital energy (essentially true). They were obviously wrong (for many biological reasons if not moral ones), but is it because we came up and knocked them on the head? On the more subtle side, Americans are shy about nudity, but gonzo for violence. Many cultures are on the other side of that fence. Is the current spectrum of media-delivered violence-streams your candy, being handed out by pirates to children?

And as soon as I read your post, I so wanted to see you draw a pirate, bloody and gnarled, gayly handing out candy to the children.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

Maybe one could conduct an experiment where you indocrinate different groups with different beliefs from the very beginning of their life, then make happyness measurements by placing strange metallic helmets onto their heads, all while laughing maniacally in your secret-scientific-fortress-lair-basement.

[dogfood]

...how did you know about my secret-scientific-fotress-lair-basement?


Nerf! >:{

[Prometheus|ANJ]

It's me! Igor!

[Ilaekae]

How'd you fit all that shit in the bottom of your can, Puppy Chow?