Line confidence?

[BlackGuy]

So the number 1 crit I've been receiving is that the scratchy lines in my sketches show a lack of confidence, and I have such a weak grasp on what that means, I was hoping some of you guys could help me understand it. What makes a confident line and how do you go about breaking the habit and reprogamming yourself to intuitively draw with that confidence after years of drawing the other way? It's hard for me to understand because I don't consciously feel any hesitation or lack of confidence when I'm working, but if I'm showing common signs of it and it's aesthetically unpleasing, I want to understand it and know how to fix it.

Examples of my sketches:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/SinfulSketch/Edward.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/SinfulSketch/facesketches.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/SinfulSketch/smoker.jpg

So, thoughts?

[White Rose]

*lol* i hear that about my line art all the time when i draw..
sketchy lines just means.. when you draw a line.. your only suppose to draw "one" line. if there are many lines surrounding the "main" line to make the line.. then its sketchy.
So you have to learn how to create one solid line. But learning how to do fix that habit is very possible.. but a hard habit to break..

here what kitsu told me.. maybe it might help for you too..

http://conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=909374&postcount=41

btw... your line art...looks confident to me.. yeah there is a little sketchiness.. but nothing that doesnt show lack of confidence......

[dogfood]

I'm not sure if I agree with the "confidence" crit as much. One problem that is common when laying in multiple lines to represent one is that the line weight isn't easily controlled and conveyed. Laying in light guidelines to give a good track and then putting in the one properly weighted line can often help out the viewer in seeing what you want them to see. When you lay into a curve and bear down on the pencil (or lighten up), you're giving that segment a relative importance. When you just toss in several lines to do the same thing, it's often hard to figure out whether you meant to make the line thick or were just having a hard time finding the right curve. That may be what they mean when they say you're lines lack confidence.

It's all about interpretation of the viewer.

One thing I will say in direct crit, it seems you're using one ear pattern for all of your people. I do that a lot, but it seems yours is more intricate than many. It's drawing attention away from the rest of the face.

Things are looking good, though. Just keep referring to real things when you draw from the head and things will really come together.

[Evil_Sloth]

when your using construction lines on a figure or a vehicle, would those should those lines be erased to make your drawing look more confident?

[Christian223]

You need to train in that specific field, read this

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/DLDecArts/DLDecArts-idx?type=turn&entity=DLDecArts003300540022&isize=M

[Pixeldragoon]

when your using construction lines on a figure or a vehicle, would those should those lines be erased to make your drawing look more confident?

I kinda consider this as cheating. Not the erasing construction lines part, but the "to make it look more confident" part. I always knew it as having the ablitiy to draw the right line the first time;

It's beyond "So you have to learn how to create one solid line.", you have to learn to create the RIGHT line. Again, it's so your pic conveys more with less, but also so you can see better. So you are more "confident" with your observing.

[BlackGuy]

you see construction lines in general as cheating? Or when doing these kinds of exercises?

White Rose and Christian223, great links guys, thanks! I'm still very curious to see everyone else's thoughts on the matter. How did you go about laying your lines down in one smooth stroke? Were most of you doing it like that from the beginning, or was it something you had to consciously learn?

[Pixeldragoon]

"you see construction lines in general as cheating? Or when doing these kinds of exercises?"

Nononono, I see erasing unconfident lines afterwards for the purpose of giving the illusion that you are more confident, without actually being more confident as cheating.

[stephen]

Nononono, I see erasing unconfident lines afterwards. It's giving the illusion that you are more confident, without actually being more confident.

wow, just wow...

[dogfood]

Pix, buddy, I'm not sure if you're joking or not, in reference to the recent threads on what people consider cheating and not cheating. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and chuckle at the thought of erasing being cheating.

[armando]

The more I learn about art the more difficult this question becomes. It comes down to what you're trying to convey with the picture, and what type of artistic philosophy you subscribe to. Since our visual perception sees no actual lines an argument could be made that it doesn't matter how many lines we use in a sketch since any line is an abstraction of the truth and therefore impossible to be right. Having many lines can involve the viewer more, sinse they have to actively figure out where the real line should be, J.D. Harding gives this a few words in "On Drawing Trees and Nature".Many people say that lines are closely related to the sense of touch, so having a fuzzy line around a person would be wrong for that reason. I think the unacceptability of fuzzy lines has to do with the way which we interpret visual perception, we see lines as 3D objects so if a line is broken into pieces it appears not to enclose a 3D form but instead looks more like a collection of unrelated lines, a book I just read about this is "Visual Intelligence" - Hoffman. The goal of art is unity and variety.
"How did you go about laying your lines down in one smooth stroke? Were most of you doing it like that from the beginning, or was it something you had to consciously learn?"
My lines, before I started studying, were somewhere between the petted line and the smooth line. I'm still not particulary happy with my lines, when I get confused and uncertain I revert back to the petted line. Really what's keeping me from using line properly is that I'm aware of several theories on it's use but I'm never quite sure which one to use at a given moment. Line confidence, like all confidence, comes from knowing what and why you're doing something. I suppose there could be things called "shape confidence" and "color confidence", but I've never heard of anyone talking about those things.

[Pesmerga]

I don't get it. I mean, a sketchy drawing is far more confident than a carefully traced drawing. It's fluid, it's fast, its automatic, its full of movement and feeling. Sketchy drawings are confident. They're just not accurate lol. It's like over-confidence. You're like so confident in your noob skills that you don't even pay attention to some important details. I think you just gotta balance it all... and never erase of course. cuz that's cheating :)

[dbclemons]

So the number 1 crit I've been receiving is that the scratchy lines in my sketches show a lack of confidence,...

I don't see a lack of confidence in the drawings you posted. They're sketchy since, well, they're sketches. You can work on making the lines more 'economical' by making fewer longer lines that are more fluid, but that doesn't necessarily make the drawing better, just 'cleaner' for whatever that's worth. Another approach is to draw as you are now, but lighter, and finish up with single darker lines that are more simplified.

(Edit: another idea is to think more in terms of forms and shapes. The drawings above seem to concentrate more on the edges. If you sketch out the ovals and such loosely and lightly that might free up your drawing some.)

[Elwell]

when you draw a line.. your only suppose to draw "one" line. if there are many lines surrounding the "main" line to make the line.. then its sketchy.
Yeah, this guy really sucks :rolleyes:
You guys worry too much. If it looks good, it is good.

[Idiot Apathy]

Everything elwells says, practically ever - is usually awesome

:D Nice!

[Pesmerga]

Hey guys, I just found proof that Leonardo Da Vinci is a cheater:

http://www.visi.com/~reuteler/vinci/leda.jpg
Look carefully, HE ERASED AN UNCONFIDENT SHOULDER LINE!!!!!! italian traitor, I knew it!

[GriNGo]

you see construction lines in general as cheating? Or when doing these kinds of exercises?
Nononono, I see erasing unconfident lines afterwards. It's giving the illusion that you are more confident, without actually being more confident.

That's BS. Simple as that. The issue of confidence mainly lies in what other people think about your stuff. An accomplished artist, even he draws anatomy like shit, but makes some good looking abstract or anything non figurative for the matter, will be deemed "confident". & he really is. He knows that anything he makes will be good for him and specially his audience. Maybe the trick to being confident is just don't care too much about the sketches. In my case, I would suggest not erasing much, drawing stronger and more fluent lines (that means longer lines), Using fewer lines. But anyways just keep drawing... & don't let those critics of yours distract you with nonsense.

PS: Your sketches are rocking man! :yayca: just stay here & keep doing your thing.

greetings!
GRiNgoLoCo

[armando]

Okay, lets get rid of the phrase "confident line", and substitute "knowledgable line"... maybe "knowledgable art" would be better? In Leornardo's notebooks he mentions the difference between the constant fluctuating aspect of a thing(it's appearance) and it's 3D form(I don't remember the exact wording he uses) which maintains constant proportions. Rennaisance art was highly concerned with the representation of form, and you can see that in the Leonardo drawings. In the first one he seeks out his line, misses a few times but finds the one he wants, since there are no lines in nature the drawing remains truthful and expresses movement. Note he's also making a comparison between human and horse anatomy/structure, via the use of outline and some shade lines.
Note in the second drawing he clearly knows what he wants and what he is doing, the lines describe the structure of the face. Everything has a clear form.
The difference between this and a beginner's drawing is that the beginner doesn't know what they're trying to accomplish, are they copying shapes? interpreting form? etc. They go in with no plan and no goal, but hope to make a pretty drawing in the end and learn nothing in the process of making that drawing.

[armando]

I don't get it. I mean, a sketchy drawing is far more confident than a carefully traced drawing. It's fluid, it's fast, its automatic, its full of movement and feeling. Sketchy drawings are confident. They're just not accurate lol.

By your use of the word fluid, I take it you mean a drawing like the one Elwell posted. We're not arguing the use of many lines but the use of the "petted line". The petted line is simply visually unappealling, it's not really possible to argue for it's use. Fast, automatic, movement, we percieve these things because of visual cues which the artist chooses to show us, a drawing isn't successful by accident or magic. The petted line, too, is a visual cue, but it contradicts the nature of the object which it depicts. Maybe it would work when drawing a catepillar?

[DavePalumbo]

Laying in light guidelines to give a good track and then putting in the one properly weighted line can often help out the viewer in seeing what you want them to see

ka-bam

[Egets]

I feel like laughing here because when you are talking about not confident drawing style Im reminded of my mother and how she draws, god bless her she is the best and I love her, so anyways its so amusing because she will be shaking the pen in the air imitating the movement of the line she is about to draw about 3-5 times before she actually dares to press the pen on paper and make a mark. However I know that this is because she dont have much practise, yet she can still draw pretty well, she mostly draws women if she ever draws anything or funny cat.

I have artskills in the family also my father is naturally talented however he never pursued it seriously and from my mothers side one of her sisters has been paintings since rock of ages and has been holding several exhibitions too, her daughter the oldest one is wohow perfect, even that she is two years younger than me she has always outshine me, not anymore however I have now climbed over her .......... she must get back on track and serious again about this thing , it is so her she is even pisces from horoscope and she is soooooo artsy than anybody !!!!!!!!!!!


Anyways I can see what you are talking about in the first picture your drawing looks a bit like my mothers drawing many careful lines etc but what I would say here is that does it really matter then how they are because its yet a sketch, maybe you just simply dont have enough experience and the confidence then and that shows in the art, what can you do about that, you cant really cheat the amount of skills and knowledge you have gathered within you that are dictating your drawing style.

If it is worrieng you so much I recommend continue excercising until you are confident enough, how about this one then, it looks very confident to me: http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/SinfulSketch/smoker.jpg

[Kitsu]

... so anyways its so amusing because she will be shaking the pen in the air imitating the movement of the line she is about to draw about 3-5 times before she actually dares to press the pen on paper and make a mark...

Lol! I usually do that when I'm drawing with a tablet :bashful:

Anyway like was said before - Its really just about making a choice. Find the line you want and make it. If it's wrong you need to train more.

Elwell: I agree with what you say, but the final lines in that sketch are very confident, it's just that in ink all the screwing around is still visable (and cool looking).

Bwarg! I could have made dozens of confident lines in the time it took to write this :upset:

[Pixeldragoon]

What I said (or meant) was that if you are erasing your lines purely so people will be quiet about you not being confident I think it's cheating.

And dogfood: What threads about cheating? I have no clue what you're talkin about...


And Tristan, sorry to argue, I really hate to butt heads with you; But "sketchy" isn't the same as and artist sucking.

"We're not arguing the use of many lines but the use of the "petted line""
Thank you =)

[BlackGuy]

I'm sorry, I should have clarified what I meant. The petted line is exactly what I was talking about, thanks armando. You guys all bring up some valid points, I like how this conversation is going. The light construction lines thing seems to be working well enough. Up until now I had been using a mechanical pencil, and was doing my construction lines with that. Those construction lines would often become the end result because I had done them too dark. When i got a lead holder though, I started doing my construction lines lightly with the side of the pencil, it made quite a bit of difference.

[Elwell]

And Tristan, sorry to argue, I really hate to butt heads with you; But "sketchy" isn't the same as and artist sucking.


That's OK, I keep forgetting irony is lost on the young :P.

[DavePalumbo]

erasing your lines purely so people will be quiet about you not being confident

I think it's more so that your drawing will look better. It doesn't really have anything to do with what people think, unless you want them to think, y'know, that the drawing looks better. So are you fooling them into thinking you're better than you are by improving your ability? Wait... huh?

It's like saying that if you only put your best pieces in your portfolio, you're misleading the client.

[stephen]

What I said (or meant) was that if you are erasing your lines purely so people will be quiet about you not being confident I think it's cheating.


this just gets better and better :D

[Pixeldragoon]

You know what, fuck you all. The internet is bad for communicating.

BTW stephen you haven't even tried to contribute shit to this thread, so please stfu.

EDIT: Thanks stephen, I appreciate it.

[jcaffoe]

haha, pix, there is no such thing as cheating in art.

technically every time you're putting a pencil to paper you're cheating, it's all cheating your eye to see 3D space on a 2D plane. Any trick you can use to help that illusion is always okay.

And to the OP: You're drawing the same line over and over again. You need to have the confidence to put a line down. If you're not happy with it, erase and draw it again, but you should NEVER worry about having the perfect line the first time.

[That fat kid]

Something about this thread struck a chord. Confidence doesn't come from thinking about how to have confidence or questioning those who do, its like trying to "act natural." Confidence, in any endeavor, is earned.

[Mike Frank]

I feel like line confidence, while its nice to have for visual reasons, has more to do with clearly communicating to yourself.. As a noobie and even still now a lot of times, I think I tended to peck at (use lots of small lines) different areas that you really havent forced yourself to conceive of all that confidently. Trying to really stretch lines out and describe things with a minimal amount of lines definitely helped me think of things more clearly and think ahead a lot more.. and it looks a lot cleaner also.

[armando]

she will be shaking the pen in the air imitating the movement of the line she is about to draw about 3-5 times before she actually dares to press the pen on paper and make a mark.

I'll defend this method. Scott Robertson actually encourages "ghosting in the line" before laying it down, to increase it's accuracy. Various other artists ghost in their construstion lines to keep the finished drawing cleaner. Isn't this the same thing as a skilled pool player doing preliminary movements before striking the ball, sorta feeling out the trajectory, this is more a sign of skill than a lack of it.

[Crusoe the Painter]

Use a pen if you want to get really confident with laying lines. :)

I have the same problem of ending up with a cloud of lines that really don't convey anything. Working with a pen, you only get a few chances to get it right. I find myself thinking more about how I want to lay a piece out.

[Pixeldragoon]

Actually, I prefer markers, they seem more encouraging of the few lines because of their thickness, but pens are just as good.

[DavePalumbo]

Use a pen if you want to get really confident with laying lines.

oh hell yes. I have a sketch book specifically for pen sketching, no pencil is to touch it. I actually work very scribbly and loose in there, but it's all about learning to not fear the lines. What faster way to learn confidence than to get rid of your safety net?

[stephen]

alright alright im just being a dick, i'll stop :)

[HunterKiller_]

You need to train in that specific field, read this

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/DLDecArts/DLDecArts-idx?type=turn&entity=DLDecArts003300540022&isize=M

Thanks for the link, just what i needed. I'm doing those excersise from the start right now. :D

[AmishCommy]

Use a pen if you want to get really confident with laying lines. :)
use a BRUSH if you want to get confident with lines.

basically the "pettered lines" are signs of an amature. Check out Pixel's SB. look at the first pages and what's he doing now and you'll see a general comfort with mark making.

another great exersize is doing Blind countour. not only will you be making one line instead of thousands, but you'll also be developing your observation skills.

[Mr Man]

Surley if you can make a mark on the paper without breaking into a cold sweat then your confident.
The only time I think I wouldnt be confident would be if I didnt know where a line was going, but in terms of accuracy I suppose the best thing to do is practice.

Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice,
Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice,
Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice...That seems to be the most generic answer these days.

[HunterKiller_]

Yes that is the generic answer people give these days.
It's not very good.
There are different practices for the many different aspects of drawing/art, just 'practice' isn't enough.

[BlackGuy]

I think that's an interesting topic in itself actually..

[aqua-relle]

Newb here (may as well put that out there) and I'm just curious why no one has mentioned the term "gesture" yet? Technically White Rose did, but without using the actual term. I've been through a fair amount of art programs at different schools (though I'm still pretty young) and all of them (save for the graphic design oriented ones) stressed gesture long before they talked about line confidence.

That being said, have you gestured before? Because there is a bit of a stiffness that comes from not gesturing. And when I say gesture I mean a "searching line" or a "controled scribble" (two different deffinitions from two different teachers) because I know that what I thought was gesturing actually wasn't when I was formally taught how to. I know you said you make "construction lines" what are those exactly? Do you measure out angles of limbs, etc?

And now I shall be a jerk and post up an example of my own gesture (that is minimally shaded with ink wash):
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a277/aqua-relle/ca8fe537.jpg

So, at any rate, while these are "sketchy" each mark is made with confidence because I know that each mark I'm making is serving a purpose, even if in the end result it really doesn't matter. Yeah it's loose and messy and I erase a little around the face otherwise it turns into one huge grey mass that I can't even understand, but I never second guess myself, no do I really care if a mark is wrong. I can always make another that is "more right".

[NoSeRider]

http://user.aol.com/pnhassett/art/Mim.gif

I've been told I have line confidence.

I think line confidence is knowing where you want the line, and making as few lines as possible to describe what you want.

I draw with a ballpoint pen and whiteout squeeze tube. The above piece was the first drawing.

[Alexandr Pascenko]

I´ve been told i have sex-appeal!!

I bang with a vivid condom without sqeeze lubricant. The under piece was my first.








http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/1720/fattyzr2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[junthi]

I've also noticed that pretty much everything you do to make your art look better is cheating. And you just have to accept that fact :D

If you want your lines to look confident, you have to draw fast! That's the way the line weights vary naturally and the lines look swooshy and, well confident. Another important thing that makes lines look good is to draw with your whole arm, not just with your wrist. And you have to use the natural round of motion (do u say it that way in english?) of arm. That's the reason why you should rotate your sheet because you can't draw natural lines in every direction. And that's why it's annoying to make line art in photoshop; in painter I use to rotate the canvas with my pen's eraser head and it makes drawing more natural.

[cotron]

lack of confidence= furry lines! which is what you have, but not terribly.

drawing solely in pen has helped me... I had a job drawing caricatures where i could only use a black marker, no pencil... no "fucking up"... and I learned SO much from it.

Anyway, my suggestion is to sketch w/o the safety net of the eraser, just pen and paper, from life. You'll make 1000 bad ones before one turns out the way you like, but you'll learn so much from the exercise. This affects every aspect of your work, too, because the confidence you gain will seep into your finished work and make it better and more interesting to look at.

[madmenno]

Nice topic, as i'm also strugling with this.

I can't get a straight line on paper in one stroke but if there are some lightly sketched lines where i want that straight line i CAN do the job, though i want to learn also to put that line there in the first place.

--------
haha, pix, there is no such thing as cheating in art.

technically every time you're putting a pencil to paper you're cheating,

Look what he is saying!!!! People who draw with pencils aint making art... J/K :P

[NoSeRider]

http://user.aol.com/pnhassett/art/primative2.jpg

Here's another drawing I did, and for anybody that wants to accuse me of being arrogant......STFU! Jeez, I'm fed up with paranoid arrogant people.