Gesture: Villpu or Nicolaides?

[Pogopuschel]

Hi, I am working through Nicolaides book "The Natural Way to Draw", and he presents a different gesture technique than villpu.

Nico says: DONT'T begin with the head i.e. and villpu says: BEGIN with the head...

Well, wich approach is better? Serve they the same purpose? Is Villpus technique just a newer (more developed?) one?

[_Mario]

Practice both and use what works better for you.

[Snarfevs]

Yerp, this is art not Java. :teeth: There's no rubric to follow, no upgrading of methods. Your art is not going to return a syntax error. Experimentation leads to a deeply personal suite of styles.

[Pogopuschel]

Ok.^^

[John]

Haha, let me help you:

There are no rules, just tools.


:)

[Mike Frank]

Thing is if you start by getting the torso and legs arranged than you can have them in just about any position and a head will fit on top just fine.. but if you start with the head than you gotta make sure you get the torso and legs just right. But yeah do it whatever way you like or both.

[mentler]

It is a structural consideration <> the head is not part of the support mechanism, it is balanced on top via the Atlas and Axis vertebra...
Since we know it is balanced it makes no sense at all to draw it first when there is nothing to balance it on.

Glenn is a very good instructor but he is dead wrong on this one <> also remember he worked for Disney for a number of years and in the cartoon world the head is often 1/3 of the total body so it has more importance.

Another major reason (if you need one) is that the model will move considerably after being in a pose for a few minutes the head moves the most because it is balanced on the pillar of the neck and changes position based on the weight distribution of the torso and legs <> btw Glenn knows that starting with the head is generally considered wrong, it is just how he feels comfortable working

[Mengel]

do what works for you; and you only find that out through practice and trying new techniques.

personally though, i draw the head first from habit something i wanna work on... personally i appreciate the qualities you focus on through drawing against gravity. like... the person who posted above me (name already forgotten, sorry man) drawing the head first is just you putting a head on a structure that doesn't exist, so you don't know how to draw it in order for it to be realistic.

but, it's something i've always had a problem with, from 4th grade to last week.

[briggsy@ashtons]

Jeez man, don't forget THAT name again!

Seems to me that two things are questionable about the Vilppu method:
1. When putting in the main masses of the body, the head should logically be placed after ribcage and pelvis, for the reasons stated by Some Guy and mentler.
2. BEFORE putting in the three main masses, it is always best to somehow indicate what I would call the extent of the whole figure - the overall shape that the drawing will occupy on the page. This can be done with a spontaneous scribble, a la Nicolaides, or with a more deliberately drawn line of action (see Mentler's GRAVITY method (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26748&page=7)as one example), or with just a few selected marks. Both George Bridgman and our own E.M.Gist (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=60753)also start with the head, but you'll notice that both of them take care to mark in the limits of the figure right at the start. Any of these methods will ensure that you are drawing in relation to the whole figure right from the beginning, and make it easier to draw to a required size (and so not crash into or through the edges of the page, for a start). You COULD try to do that first stage mentally, without making a mark on the page, which I suppose must be what Vilppu does, but that seems more difficult, especially for a student.

Drawing the head first seems to be just a default habit, perhaps arising from years of starting writing at the top of the page. If you're more or less just starting out at serious figure drawing, you'd do yourself a favour to break the habit now.

[Justin Caise]

Wow what a timely and informative thread. I found myself thinking about this (whether to start head or torso) just last night as I lay my head down. I hadn't seen this thread before. I was recalling the things I'd been learning from Mentlers uhmm... hanging flesh I think.. eggs and boxes you know, and yeah, I've habitually started with the head unless following a specific instructional. I'd have to look now to see where Loomis started, or has us start, on mannikins.
But it makes sense now. Each time I've started with the head, which I thought I'd need to do to apply that there cranial spacial whatever method of measurement, well it seems that all of my drawings from imagination turn out frontal, straight on.
And I can see that during the process I end up deciding to cross legs or splay the arms or what not to create visual interest. Yeah this is backwards. Time to unlearn.
What I was advising myself last night is to start with an idea of a pose, trucker getting into his cab, lady picking up her baby, man pulling rickshaw - whatever - and thumbnailing some line of action gestures rather than starting with a head and deciding after what to have the subject doing.

I'm sort of self teaching, you see. If you can call sucking every byte of information off of this forum "self teaching."
The question and the answers are very much appreciated!

[figure2]

Thing is if you start by getting the torso and legs arranged than you can have them in just about any position and a head will fit on top just fine.. but if you start with the head than you gotta make sure you get the torso and legs just right. But yeah do it whatever way you like or both.This is how I was taught. Start with the major masses of the body first (torso & hips) and establish the twist of the spine and/or the front centerline and the tilt of the hips and you have 80% of the basic gesture already on the paper. As you rough in the head position, treat it as if it were another apendage like the arms & legs. I find this helps me get the relationship of all the parts of the body working together correctly before I go into more detail.

If you're used to starting with the head, starting in the middle & working out takes some getting used to but I believe it pays off in the long run.

[IILooney]

Vilppu doesn't say to start with the head first, he says to start with any part, although he more often than not starts with the head, but thats just his preference. I personally can't start with the head in most cases, it throws off my proportions, I start with the ribcage and pelvis.

[egerie]

This should be in the best of CA thread.

[Lohan]

i've been taught to draw the spine or pelvis first, for reasons the others have stated. the spine is the most important part in any pose. the pose would not exist without it.

[dbclemons]

The emphasis with Nicolaides is on the action and energy of the pose; whereas, Vilippu seems more concerned with forms right from the start. Most failed applications of these two approaches, from what I've seen, is those who follow Nicolaides cover the page with too many pointless lines, and A missunderstanding of Vilippu can get you to tighten up too soon.

A problem many people have when starting with the head first is to not pay attention to the composition of the figure on the page, and they often find themselves with no place to put the feet. This isn't always solved by starting with the hip area, either. Try to concentrate on getting the whole figure loosely blocked in to the whole page, and then mark out the shapes in proportion. It's sort of a combination of both disciplines. I like to think of it as 2D sculpture; carving out a block of stone, if you will, in the space of the page.

[Pixeldragoon]

I always justified my starting out with the head because it's easy to measure proportions with. (approximatley anyways).

I should really get some of these books you all is talking about =)

[briggsy@ashtons]

Vilppu doesn't say to start with the head first, he says to start with any part, although he more often than not starts with the head, but thats just his preference.

Well, I guess we're all going by the Vilppu Drawing Manual, where drawing the head IS "Step One".

I like to think of it as 2D sculpture; carving out a block of stone, if you will, in the space of the page.

Yes! Life drawing should involve a constant alternation of two ways of seeing: OBSERVING 2D shapes, and then EXPLAINING those shapes as an arrangement of 3D masses in space. We need to apply this alternating cycle of 2D and 3D seeing progressively, beginning with the broadest sweep of the gesture, and ending with the smallest detail of the likeness.

[Elwell]

Yes! Life drawing should involve a constant alternation of two ways of seeing: OBSERVING 2D shapes, and then EXPLAINING those shapes as an arrangement of 3D masses in space. We need to apply this alternating cycle of 2D and 3D seeing progressively, beginning with the broadest sweep of the gesture, and ending with the smallest detail of the likeness.
:groupie1: <3 :groupie2: :cheerleader:

[briggsy@ashtons]

Ha! Screenshot already printed and framed! (but can't find a smilie with a big enough smile)

[Onir]

I always justified my starting out with the head because it's easy to measure proportions with. (approximatley anyways).


that's how I was always taught as well, definitely gonna be trying this way now though. gotta see about getting those books as well...

thanks for all the information everyone, definitely appreciated.

[Silvertone]

Here's a shocker, there are a LOT of different "techniques" to draw the figure! What makes me laugh is when each teacher says his/her way is the "right" way, and then will say something to slight the other teacher with the different technique. Competition for more students I guess.

There's also the "anti" technique way to draw, where any specific technique followed is espoused and you just jump straight into the figure and, "Be bold". No gesture or lay in. Imagine what the proceduralists say about that!

I always hate it when people tell me what I can and can't do when it comes to drawing. "Draw this first!", " Don't draw this first!" etc. etc. Not all teachers do this, there are some that do try to guide you down your own path.

I would say try different techniques/ teachers/ methods. If you find one or more you enjoy, stick with it and learn your proportions, volumes, anatomy,etc. Take what you like about one teacher's ideas and combine what you like about another(s). When you start getting the hang of it maybe you'll start getting your OWN ideas about the best way for YOU to draw the figure or anything else for that matter. Experiment with observational drawing. Take a 2 or 3 sable brush and an ink bottle and start with say the ankle and work your way up the figure.

It can be a little overwhelming seeing all the different ways to go about the figure but you'll have to get in there and start seeing what works best for you. You'll find your way.

Kinda funny thing about Vilppu though. When you take his quick sketch class the first thing he'll say is, " All that step by step stuff in the basic drawing class...forget about it!"

Um, by the way, were you taking a class or are you just going through the books?

[briggsy@ashtons]

Well, it's no surprise to hear that V says to eventually discard all the step-by-step stuff. To be honest, the (main) thing that you don't seem to have understood yet is that the step-by-step stuff is fundamentally just a way of COMMUNICATING a series of UNDERSTANDINGS - understandings that are needed for a method of drawing that in practice may well become a quite continuous organic process.

[NoSeRider]

Start drawing with the head.

That's just the way I do it, and I'm sticking to it.

How do you find proportions if you don't measure with the head?

shoulders: 2 heads wide, generally with heads on their sides.
Figure: 6 1/2 to 7 1/2 heads tall.
Arms: 3 to 4 heads in length
Legs: 3 to 4 heads in length

Those are my basic measurements to drawing a form....assuming you don't want Liefeld proportions?

So for me, I don't see how you 'can't' draw the head first before drawing the rest of the figure?

If that's not so, why do people squint their eyes and hold up their pencil to the figure in front of them for measurement?
Seems to me they're trying to establish proportions.

[NoSeRider]

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=43794&highlight=reilly

I still think about this stuff. So it's not like my mind is set in stone.

[Main Loop]

depends on what im doing, i usually start with the head.. in a pose where the torso is doing soemthing interesting, i start with it... for the most part i start with the most interesting form...

[briggsy@ashtons]

I'm a bit mystified by your question about measurement, NoSeRider, because I can't see anyone here denying the importance either of knowing the ACTUAL proportions of the units of the body, or of measuring their APPARENT proportions from a given viewpoint. Certainly not me. Measuring apparent proportions (though not exclusively in relation to the head) is a vital tool for establishing 2D shape, along with such other tools as judging proportions by eye, checking horizontal and vertical alignments, squinting, measuring angles, checking negative shapes, and looking for lines of action. Similarly, knowing the actual proportions of the units of the body is essential to the constructional side of the process. (I don't doubt that in your mind you distinguish between these two senses in which we use the term "proportion" more clearly than is apparent in your post).

The question isn't whether or not to use proportions. To me the most crucial question here is whether it's BEST to start the process with a decision on the size and overall position and shape of the whole drawing, or the size and overall position and shape of just one bit.

[GNL]

Do you guys see the drawing on the paper before you do it most of the time?

[Pixeldragoon]

Not really... I get into a mindset of "I can do this... it's right in front of me, it's all I see most of my life.... I can draw this thing"

And then, I kinda of continuously capture the image of the figure and think about it on the page.... and then I start, constantly looking back at the figure. As hurricane says, Look [at the figure] Look [again] Draw, Look, look, draw

[rasdasa]

try not looking down at your page for the first five seconds. You'll force yourself to be more comfortable with your eye/hand coordination. In those first 5sec also try to get through each point of the body, just a gestural line or two, hands feet head...etc...
it'll boost your assurance after awhile.

branko

[Mike Frank]

Do you guys see the drawing on the paper before you do it most of the time?

Most of the time I dont, though I wish I could picture something that well. I tend to think of things in terms of line, tone, shape etc.. then try to describe that the best I can with the pencil, pen, brush, whatever. Its kind of a different way of thinking about things -- its like imagining or hearing a sequence of notes and then trying to play them on the guitar, you sort of just go with thinking of it in terms of where to put your fingers and less as particular notes. Sometimes you might have to correct yourself and refigure out some of the notes, because you wont get it right the first try. Other times, what happens seemingly on accident turns out better than you thought. I think, its also important to keep in mind that you're always going to be playing around with your processes and coming up with new ways of doing things -- so don't get more hung up than is necessary on any particular rule of approach.