How to Self-Teach?

[fray]

Hi,
I have been drawing for a while now, but have never really taken it seriously. I am VERY VERY far from good, and only a step above horrible.
I am unable at the moment to take any courses or even attend a life-drawing class, but I want to learn all I can.
My only problem is that I dont know where to start. Ive tried looking at some Loomis stuff, but I really cant stand looking at stuff on the computer while trying to draw with a pencil and paper.
I feel that getting a book would be very helpful..
Should I start with an anatomy book with pictures?
Or should I start with an anatomy book with drawings?
Or should I start drawing something else besides the human figure from a book?

Im currently not too interested in anything else besides drawing, and once I feel I am adequate with that, I will move on to bigger and better things =).
I just want to know if anyone can offer any suggestions as to where to start.
(and please dont say "just practice practice practice!!", because I dont know HOW to practice!)



PS - I know people make threads like this alot, and im sorry if ive annoyed anyone.

[Coma]

1. have a healthy balance of both anatomy drawings and photos. Draw from them every day, as much as you can.

2. You don't need a life drawing class or group to become good at life drawing. only eyes, and feet in a public place.
Do this as much as possible.

[fray]

SO your saying...just start out with figure stuff?

[Coma]

You don't have to constrict your self to the figure.
When you go and draw in public places you'll see only people with clothing on (unless there's some crazy mofo around)
and once you can draw the figure correctly there isn't much you won't be able to draw.

Most of the time I'm studying even without a sketchbook, just looking at objects and surroundings and visualizing how you would put them to line.

[Cow&Cheese]

Buy a book called virtual pose 2 (ISBN 0966638352)

It comes with a CD with quicktime movie stills of models that you can rotate 360 degrees.

This is THE closest thing to nude life drawing.

This is a great thing to do when you cannot attend life drawing classes because of time constraints.. you can do this anywhere and anytime as long as you have a computer.

I recommend everything who doesnt have time to life draw do this...

I hope this helps..

[Treb]

For me, improving my figure drawing came from a balance of life drawing and from general observation via anatomy books. Eventually, I got to a point where I started using photos, magazines, and then random people in public. Starbucks is an awesome place to draw people. Sometimes when people see that you're an artist, they kind of get curious and offer to pose for you for a minute or two, just to see how they turn out in your sketchbook. =)

But anyways, back to your main problem: not having life drawing classes. There are a bunch of drawing instruction books: I prefer Glenn Vilppu's "Vilpuu Drawing Manual. And then study from anatomy books by people like George Bridgman and Burn Hogarth -- Bridgman does a good job defining volume through planes, while Hogarth is on the opposite extreme and really exaggerates the organic qualities of the human anatomy. Stare at books like these and also draw from them in your sketchbook for practice! For me, it's been a combination of both; I've found that I need to spend time just staring at the pages and also separate time drawing from them. Eventually, the knowledge just kind of sinks in.

If you get to a level where you think you're sort of getting the hang of figure drawing, you just have to remember to listen to yourself -- that is, listen to what you know, as opposed to trying to mimic different people's styles and techniques.

Keep in mind that I'm just a high school newbie improving myself. But there's my ten cents. =) Hope it helps somewhat.

[ramoutar]

I found that what helped me the most when I started figure drawing was understanding the basics of light and shadow, perspective, drawing volumes in space, etc. If you're already comfortable with those then few good figure drawing books that I'd recommend are "Drawing the Head and Figure" by Jack Hamm and "The Figure" by Walt Reed. Mind you I also like the Loomis books... :)

[markscholey]

Fray.

I am in the same situation as you, except i am getting back into drawing after a long break from it.

Treb is right, I do the same thing, go and sit in a place like a coffee shop where poeple are generally quite still. You get a chance to run off quick and sometimes not so quick sketches.

And to cover a disagreement that was in another thread on this subject, you need to do two things. One is learn to "see" the other is translate what you see onto paper. use sketching from life as a chance to "see", study what is out there, and try and think about what marks you are making.

When i was back at art college, one life drawing tutor made us draw the model where every line had to be drawn with a ruler, even simple preparatory construction lines, it's a great exercise as it really focuses you on translating what you see (maybe an idea for a contest on here?) - though you should probably leave that one for a while.

Finally.. (sorry for going on a bit....) buy a mirror! You are perhaps the only person you dont have to ask to stay still or get naked for you and wont complain if you stare!

Most of all....try and relax and enjoy what you are doing...i hope this helps.

[MindCandyMan]

This is my suggestion for a curriculum that you should set for yourself. Be prepared to find models in your area and be willing to dish out the cash...they usually charge about 10 bucks an hour. This is what the atelier schools teach in order to train someone for realism.



-Bargue Drawings (small scale 19th century academic drawings of sculpture)
-Three accurate copies in pencil.
-Charcoal Copy
-One large scale copy of a master drawing in charcoal.
-Cast Drawings (charcoal on white paper)

-One simple cast (Eye, Nose, Mouth, etc.)
-One Mask
-One Head
-One large Bust or Figure
-Cast Drawings: Charcoal and White Chalk on Toned Paper
-One simple cast
-Two drawings, choice of casts (one must be large)

-Grisaille Oil Painting (Black ,White, and Raw Umber oil on canvas)
-Two simple casts
-Two, choice of casts (one must be large)
-Color Oil Painting
-Limited Palette (black, white, yellow ochre, raw umber, vermilion)
-Two single objects (apple, pear, etc.)
-Full Palette (choice colors)
-One simple still life (uncomplicated grouping of objects)
-Unlimited and unrestricted still life projects from this point on

-Figure and Portraiture
*While you are working on the projects listed above, you should also be focusing attention on figure drawing and portraiture. In your figure work begin in pencil, progressing to
charcoal, charcoal and white chalk, limited palette and finally full palette. Portraiture should begin in charcoal.

[Lev_0]

Focus on drawing the figure, study Kchen's notes that he's posted. Once you can draw/construct the figure from the basic shapes then you can draw it from any angle. Once you can do that then you'll be able to draw pretty much anythin. Read Kchen's post about what he teaches in what order in his class (drawing simple shapes in perspective, proportions, etc.). IMO that approach is better than the atelier approach, being able to construct and deconstruct the body rather than just copying it. First cause you won't get bored as you will copying a cast for 16 hours, 2nd you'll actually learn how to draw the body from any angle out of your head, somethin you won't get out of copying it atelier style. If you want some more info on the downsides of atelier methods type in cast drawing at this forum-

http://www.studioproducts.com/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?

If you have a cast like a head or what not I think it'd be more valuable to deconstruct it into basic shapes and shade it in with limited values rather than making it look ultra realistic. If you're just starting with the human body it's more useful to be able to draw basic shapes in perspective at any angle than it is to know anatomy. You'll find your drawings will improve a whole lot once you start drawing everything with simple cylinders/cubes.

Read vilppu's drawing book here, really useful (work from pg3 and back)

http://mag.awn.com/index.php3?ltype=Columns&column=vilppu&offset=20

[MindCandyMan]

I think a solid grounding in the atelier method will catapult you to understanding the masses and solids of a figure. The reason for doing the sight-size method is to train your eye to be able to see...the technique then needs to be utilized...artists learned with the sight size method but that wasn't what they always used from that point on.

I know they used models often times for their more in depth pieces (same as foster, targete, etc...) but most of the masters like bougeareau...sargent..etc... could draw fantastically out of their head...they broke it down to squares...etc... Yet most studied in the atelier type of manner. But you are right...just copying without understanding is no good. I am going to try to get into some ateliers...all the while studying vilpu and Bridgman...etc... Kchen practices a mixture of both as well. If he only practiced from his head...all his people would end up looking the same...but he draws from life so much. I probably shouldn't speak for him though.

[Lev_0]

Yea, what I meant was learn how to construct a basic body with simple shapes before anything else, then once you can do that, drawing different people comes easily since they're all variations of the same shapes.

[DragonGX]

Honestly, I would take a class.

Peopel say you dont need classes, but havign a teacher who has done it all there to help you or show you is by far one of the greatest things you can have.

Take me for example. Ive been drawing on my own for a few years (well on and off, mostly off)

Recently after a long vacation from drawing, I decided i wanted to get better and keep drawing. I found pictures on the internet to draw, I drew a few things from real life. I got better but I still need to learn alot.

I took a class this semester at tthe local CC, and I have learned so much, and improve in jsut a couple weeks, just by seeing what other students are doing, getting advice from other people, and LEARNING NEW TECHNIQUES.

So if you can, I would take a class. ;)

[Mike Frank]

I've been at drawing steadily for the past two months, and am trying to self-teach myself too. I can say the one thing that helps you draw much better is trying to draw anything you fear drawing. Everytime you see a picture or someone is in a pose you dont think you can handle, just draw it anyways and learn from your mistakes. Whatever it is that you fear drawing, you know that is your weakness, so just cut to the chase, study your subjects, and get better at it.

[Wrath_of_Dog]

You know, I might have an idea for you Fray. Aside from materials, its free. It doesn’t require travel, and you can do it anywhere and anytime you feel like. Its something I'm probably going to get smacked for saying, but if your really, really struggling then try this. First thing to do is try things that are more simplistic, its basic advice. Maybe you should try things like pencils, tongue depressors, or anime characters, your choice though. The next thing to do, my authentic piece of advice, is to find some plain (unshaded but clean) sketches, print them out and trace them. Then just move to shade, and/or color, and/or complete them. It'll help you work around any weak point you may have with drawing, you know, roadblocks. If you get stuck, you can go back to the sketch. After a while, when tracing and finishing simple sketches is too easy –or boring– move on to tracing complex, colorful, images. Your goal with complex images is to chose the most important lines to trace, the outer edges and telling lines. You shouldn’t be trying to chose the fewest lines possible, but tracing only enough so you know definitively what is happening in your tracing. And then repeat as before.

I find that this method is very good at teaching form, shape, and posture, at least with me that is. Another even bigger reason to use this method is that; when you self teach, by definition, you lack someone to demonstrate technique for you. Normally, an art student is shown the basic kinds of pencil or brush strokes available to them, and if the teacher is a good one, how to apply and modify each. But the self-learner has to figure all that out on their own. Tracing helps a person to develop the ability to literally, physically, execute pencil, pen, or brush strokes. But also, it is critical to note that you have to approach tracing with that particular goal in mind, otherwise you learn jack nothing from it.

I posted this idea/technique on another forum a little back. It got blasted, loudly and emphatically. That given, I’m going to go ahead and explain why I used tracing in the first place so I don’t have to later (or hear about it either...). I endorse tracing because I’ve used it for a while, and it works for me personally. Its important to note that my reasons for using tracing in the first place are very unique (or at least rare). Others may (and I believe will) find it useful to try at least once, but I used the method because I had to. I started sketching and teaching myself art when I was seventeen, just as a hobby; doodles and things. I had developed a little talent by the time I was nineteen, and wished to continue sketching/drawing/drafting/art as part of my profession (which isn’t hard to do with the engineering fields). But around age eighteen, I started show signs of carpal tunnel in both wrists (twelve years of typing w/ bad posture). It developed for about eighteen months, but it eventually leveled out. I lost most of the feeling in both hand, except for my palms and pinkies, and I developed a slight, constant tremor. Luckily, I never developed joint pain or stiffness (i.e. debilitating). But because there was no pain or immobility, my insurance didn’t cover surgery, so it’s never been treated. It's not such an everyday issue, but for precise things like drawing, not being able to feel the pencil or having even a sixteenth or an eighteenth of an inch tremor is trouble. I used tracing to learn how to draw cleanly again, with success. Thus, I endorse and recommend it for similar issues and/or skill levels.

The only danger in tracing, btw, is if you become reliant on it, or if you stop adding original content. And it’s a darn hard rut to get out of once you get in it. Peace

[fray]

Thanks alot for your input and helpful comments everyone, I am very happy =)
Im still not exactly sure where to START, but you guys(and gals?) have given me some great tips and things to do.
Currently im just doing some Vilppu exercises while trying to draw some pictures I found in a magazine. Ive also been reading through Loomis's stuff, especially his Figure Drawing book. The thing is, everyone seems to urge you to start from life or to start drawing full figures, but I have been stuck on drawing realistic heads for so long that I cant bring myself to stop trying as hard as I can on that, and being easily confused as I am, starting to study full figure from another point would be too complicated

ugghh..Im too tired to make sense

and PS - mindcandyman, all the things you mentioned in your post seemed very..hardcore and not for begginers..mostly because I really dont understand most of those things ;(

[DragonGX]

Here are some things to think about..

First off all of this info is the Nicholaides (im not sure if that is spelt right) book "The natural way to draw"..

Anyways, one thign that will really help is if you do outlien drawings. what i mean by that, is find an object, and draw the outline of it VERY VERY slowly.. it should tkae you 10-20 mintues for a simple object.. pay more attention to the object and not what youre drawing.. follow every little nook and cranny on the object..

Once you do osme of those and see how well youre doing, try one blind.. you will be surprised how well it turns out if you take your time and study it..

I knwo that exercises like these are really really boring, but if you want to improve, try to do at least a coupel of these..

After outline drawings, do contour drawings.. Just draw all the lines you can see in the object. Dont shade it, jsut draw lines.. and like the outline, do it very slowly, pay more attention to the object that your paper, and you shoudl get soem good results..

Those are jsut 2 simple exercises that can really help you improve not only your drawing skills, but it will improve your perception.. so when you go to draw somehting from life, it will turn out 10 times better than someone who never did those things..

It teaches you to see what youre seeing and not what you THINK you are seeing..

[DragonGX]

Hey, PM me if you need any more help, info or exersizes... you sound like you really want to learn and haev a passion for art..

[Chromo48]

I'm self taught myself and although I attended an art college for a short time, I came out with this, the only way to really get good is by doing it yourself,(motivation, ambition, obsession). So...if your going out a lot, late nights at the bar, whatever, cut back...alot.
For the drawing side of things, I found it helpful to start on figure drawing first. For me, when I got to a point in my figure drawing that was semi-satisfying I found drawing other things to come much easier.
Now of course I didn't just draw figures all the time, but it was the bulk of my practice sessions. Now I have a pretty good balance of both figure work and objects (buildings,trees, etc...) Perspective is easily learned, all it takes is a book and a couple nights of reading, then get practicing. A good book on perspective ("Perspective without Pain" and another one I have thats long and blue, I forget the name), should be your first purchase because the figure work and pretty much anything else can be found in life or in pictures. The internet is full of good reference material. Just search for stock photography sites. The best I've found is www.Comstock.com its free to join and they have a ton of photos. Plus they send you free stuff in the mail (CD roms, catalogs).
As for learning the actual anatomy, I found it good to start with some "how to books" for comic artists. They simplify the anatomy to make it easy, so you can study this and get the proportions and shapes down. After I felt comfortable with that I started studying guys like Loomis and Bridgeman.
I hope my babbling here is a good aid in getting you started or at least a bit more motivated.
Just remember this...Just like everything else in life, start small and simple and build upon that. Everthing has its most basic part.

Oh yeah, about reading the Loomis books online. I printed each one of them out. I know...its a lot of ink and paper, but WORTH IT, these books are hard to find and I hear their also expensive if you do find one.

[coriat]

Originally posted by fray


and PS - mindcandyman, all the things you mentioned in your post seemed very..hardcore and not for begginers..mostly because I really dont understand most of those things ;(

Originally posted by MCM

Bargue Drawings (small scale 19th century academic drawings of sculpture)
-Three accurate copies in pencil.
-Charcoal Copy
-One large scale copy of a master drawing in charcoal.
-Cast Drawings (charcoal on white paper)

-One simple cast (Eye, Nose, Mouth, etc.)
-One Mask
-One Head
-One large Bust or Figure
-Cast Drawings: Charcoal and White Chalk on Toned Paper
-One simple cast
-Two drawings, choice of casts (one must be large)

-Grisaille Oil Painting (Black ,White, and Raw Umber oil on canvas)
-Two simple casts
-Two, choice of casts (one must be large)
-Color Oil Painting
-Limited Palette (black, white, yellow ochre, raw umber, vermilion)
-Two single objects (apple, pear, etc.)
-Full Palette (choice colors)
-One simple still life (uncomplicated grouping of objects)
-Unlimited and unrestricted still life projects from this point on

-Figure and Portraiture
*While you are working on the projects listed above, you should also be focusing attention on figure drawing and portraiture. In your figure work begin in pencil, progressing to
charcoal, charcoal and white chalk, limited palette and finally full palette. Portraiture should begin in charcoal.




It's actually simple... A bargue drawing..
A bargue drawing is just copying a drawing onto your own paper... Mr. Bargue published a series of almost 200 drawings made especially for this purpose.
This is common practice in the ateliers and it teaches you to put stuff on paper...:)

And cast drawings are also life-size drawings of statues...
And painting is painting :p

These aren't art-forms on themselves, but are ment to help students to understand form and value and stuff... i'm not making any sense, do i? - - coriat's alter ego: no you're not. - - thanks.

Well, the pro's can help you out with this alot better then i can i think.

goodluck!

[gooch]

This is a great thread, and the information in it really helps us that are trying to get back into the swing of things [drawing-wise].
Please excuse my ignorance but what are the following methods , or where can i gather information about them? (looked on google and nothing informative really came about)

study Kchen's notes?
and
the atelier method?

From the posts i can infer what they have to deal with, but i would like to see some actually literature about these methods to see if i can impliment them in my 'learning again' routine.

Thanks.

-Gooch

[Lev_0]

Look up Kchen's posts in this section (life drawing), lots of good construction drawings that help a lot. The atelier method is copying whatever it is you're drawing with sight-size. You place the object you're drawing (lets say a plaster cast of a head) beside your easel, then you draw the object at life size comparing your drawing with the object until it looks just like it. I think you'd get somethin out of this but not as much as you'd get out of beginning with a more progressive method like kchen, loomis, vilppu, or any other drawing teacher who knows their stuff would have you do.

The difference with learning how to construct for ex. a face out of simple objects like spheres/boxes, etc. is that you'll be able to draw it out of your head eventually whereas if you go with the atelier route of only copying what you see, you won't be able to concept the thing out of your head. What the sight-size method of ateliers would help with is tuning your observational skills, so I wouldn't rule it out completely. Try a search on that forum I linked in my other post if you want some more info about atelier methods.

[gooch]

thnx, ill give kchen and Vilppu a look-see now.