Vehicle Concept Art - Go on - berate me...

[Max Berman]

Hi again - here's my second post. It's a pencil drawing painted in photoshop. I was scorned last time for not actually painting anything rather just using photoshop filters. Well, I've had a go at really applying colour and while I have still used some filters, I'm happier with the result. Constructive criticism would be most appreciated - thanks, Max

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/maxberman/GeneratedItems/conceptart/snowmancomp_1_1.jpg

[look]

The background bothers me, it's still too "filtered". The vehicle is cool, but I don't understand why it has white lines on some part. Also it's too far off centered, leaving the left half too empty.
Coloring wise, stronger contrast on the vehicle would be nice. And it should show more reflective lighting from the ground.

[Max Berman]

Yeah - I reckon the last few things I did were some filters that added those white lines. I'll go back and repair that. You are right about reflective lighting too. I'm looking at the silvery prongs on the right of the vehicle and they look completely out of place with the rest of the lighting. I quite like the composition though - I tend to always imagine I'm painting a shot from a movie - the plough is about to cross frame. Thanks for your help there buddy. Max

[asoir]

Don't use lensflare, it really makes the image look tacky.

[setmonkey]

dude get some stuff in the dsg - need to have a fight. you missed much madness at k's birthday drinks - how was the opening???

[Threshold]

Eh,, I don't really have much of an issue with using filters for some stuff, but maybe you need to take a different direction with them.

For example, threshold levels are a great way to grunge up a texture, but multiple threshold levels combined with partial transparency and multiply effects and perspective are really awesome.

It's unfortunate that lensflare has been so... bastardized by amateur overuse. It's a cool filter, but few people apply it correctly, so it's become a big "just not at all thing."

[Bad Brownie]

why don't you post the pencil drawing? I'd like to see what all those details in the background are...it's way too dark and I can't make anything out back there. To be perfectly honest, (prove me wrong) the whole b/g looks like a filtered photo.

[Bai Fan]

I have to agree with bad here. When i first saw it, I thought it was a comp picture with too many filters. I can't even count the numbers of filters used here.

The way I look at it, using filters is like theater lighting. The best compliment you can hear (when you run lights for theater) is that the person didn't even notice them. That is what you want to achieve when using filters.

[Max Berman]

Yup, I think you're all right - still too many filters. I'm geting my wacom tablet in a couple of weeks so painting should be better then. I think I'm just using filters to make up for shoddy painting. Yup - it's a comped image ripped from google images in the background. I'm not too bothered about that as the brief i set myself was a quick vehicle design. Now I look at it - the perspective on the painting and the background doesn't match. Thanks for all your help - I think there is more painting going on than my last post so you're all helping. More constructive criticism much appreciated. High fives, Max.

[markwagner]

more circlar grinding wheel and action there, snow flying, stuff

~M

[Michael Jaecks]

The feedback I'll leave here may sound a little off. I draw in pencil and paint in acrylics and don't know the first thing about using/spotting digital filters, special effects or what makes them. However, this feedback is not really given as an illustator so much as a resident of Minnesota who has driven through way more than his fair share of snowy nights. There is something really right about the huge constrast between the dark night and the lens flares and the harsh filters in the picture above... Driving through the snow at night is blinding. Between the darkness, the streetlamps, the brakelights on the car in front, the oncoming headlights in the other lane and the fact that the windshield wipers never seem to completely wipe away the freezing moisture accumulating on the windshield, it's really flippin' hard to see anything much less EVERYTHING. Something about the tone of the illustration above seems really right spot on in conveying the experience of snow and night time and snow plows to someone who knows the experience all too well. Its not the kind of experience that's pleasant to look at, in fact its quite frustrating and clausterphobic feeling. You've got so many light sources bouncing off so many reflective surfaces in so much darkness that the whole thing is quite distracting. So don't expect to see everything in the background, cuz you certainly won't in real life.

Now, I'm not trying to say the picture is perfect. The perspective being off is the biggest issue for me. But, there really is something going right (I think) with it in a way I don't usually see on CA.org and I'd hate to see the picture get changed completely because a few people think you used too many filters to compensate for whats perceived as weaknesses in the image. The picture really transports me to the idea of trying to pull out of a parking spot in the incredibly circuitous streets of Loring Park, trying to avoid the plows or other cars or skidding through a stoplight. At least on that level, its successful.

[Marley]

There is nothing wrong with using lens flare like this...it works! Why people should destruct something just because someone else says filters are a no no, is beyond me...it's a little snobbish really!

As long as it works and it is how you want it to look then use what ever you can...in the industry you don't have hours and hours to spend messing around with painting this and that [because someone out there said you can't use filters]...you do it, get it to the art director and then wait for the next assignment! If Ryan Church uses filters...would that now make it ok to use them? How do you think he gets certain effects on blurring and halos etc. Matte painters actually use real photoghraphic images and just composite them to make a new image...or even use a photo to reference and colour pick...and I've actually heard people on here telling beginners not to do that!! It's amazing.

Basically do what you have to as long as it works and looks how you want it to look.

DO you think Sparth etal listened to people who said you shouldn't use blend modes on your brushes...that's just not what you do mate. No...he's found what works for him and has made a style which is instantly recognisable. I haven't seen one single person posting on a Sparth thread that he's over used a blend mode, or if he did use a filter that he shouldn't use it!!

It is detrimental that people stop telling beginners or learners to 'not' use certain parts of a program, because in reality you use as much as you can get away with to get that picture done!

The pic looks great...no matter what anyone says about filters...the only problem you have is making the vehicle fit in with the rest of the scene, such as lighting and perspective.
The rest of it gives the representation of what that vehicle is doing...which to be honest I couldn't really understand at first...and because of the lens flare and filter to make a snowy night scene...I came to understand it better.

Just don't rely on Filters...or at least like someone else said about theatre lighting...be subtle with them.

[Max Berman]

Wow - I feel a lot better now. This being my second ever post, my first one was ripped apart for my use of filters. Thanks for your kind words Neorepto and Marley. I was trying to capture a mood and feel and it's encouraging to know that at least that part is working. I like to work really fast as i have a really short attention span and sometimes filters just speed things up. I'll have a go at doing some character stuff next. Thanks again for taking the time to give me feedback. Any more, greatly appreciated. Peace out, Max.

[Michael Jaecks]

Amen Marely, and you're welcome Max. I just had to say it. I think hashing out all the technical stuff and comparing notes on techniques and measuring everyone's rendered calf muscles with a pair of calipers can be very important, but ultimately, its very EASY for all of us to critique those points in each others work. It doesn't really involve the larger ability to see that something intangable or abstract, and yet just as important, is communicated well even if the image is imperfect. I mean, in the end, those that get paid for this sort of thing are really getting paid to communicate in print or on line to the masses about something REAL rather than about how to best use Painter 9. People need to start thinking about how their work will fit into MASS media, not Communication Arts. I could totally see your image on the cover of the City Pages here in Minneapolis... WITH the perspective issues fixed.:tihi: We're always whining about the damn snow plows.

Glad I could help you feel a little better about your work.

[Marley]

Neorepto is absolutely right. We may not be worshipped like alot of people on this site, however at least we realise that it's a fine line when someone crits your work...or at least crits in a way which appeals [some may say pander to] the generic. Making good artwork doesn't have rules!

Don't get me wrong using filters does create a very contrived look and if you are apsiring to paint beautiful [traditional looking] paintings then filters may be a weight around your neck. However, it's a very important fact to use what ever is at your disposal...and make your own.

Good luck...let me know when you post again.

[Max Berman]

Hi again, you can view my first ever post, a character sketch that got slated for filters too...http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=61812
I'm pleased with the initial sketch apart from the face which I intend to design seperately but I reckon I was timid with the painting and over bold on the filters. I was trying to give the robot the gait of an old man...see what you think. Max

[veedubb]

just stop using filters, please

[Optimus_Rodney]

well now i dont think we need to pounce him for using filters - we use them all the time in digital painting. for example, noise filters are a must with some sharpening and layer mask overlays to create a nifty denim feel.

its not whether or not you use filters or not, its how you use them and this is what most people are missing.

he's dont a really great job for a guy without a tablet.

[Spacetoy]

Hi

I'll critique from a vehicle design perspective... because thats what I do al day anyway


the vehicle seems to not quite fit the scene in terms of matching its general perspecive. It just seems to be at a strange angle.

the are perpective differences between the front cab and the rear trailing section which gives an odd twisting appearance.

And the silver coloured legs/blocks on the underside make no sense to me.

But its a nice colourful start, I would perhaps further study vehicle design, lighting and perspectives.

[Max Berman]

Thanks for your feedback fellahs. I've got a tablet now so things can only get better. Yup - I need to polish up on my perspective and I'm leaving off the filters a wee bit now.