i have trouble visualising before drawing

[russell]

im not sure if this is the right forum for this, but ill ask anyway.

i think i have trouble visualising before i draw... im not sure if this is the case, but i seem to think that lots of artists get a clear image in their mind of the image before you draw, is this the case? or is everyone like me, where your minds image is kinda patchy and unfocused? i can only start drawing what i think (big ogre....so big round shape..... hmmm draw big arms..hmm draw big legs.. etc) , then refine the image. i cant imagine an whole ogre standing there and draw him... if you follow.. my thought processes seem to be a bit seperate.


i cant seem to picture an image and translate this perfectly onto the page, not sure why.
can anyone give me tips on how to do this better?

thanks



p.s big big shout out to anyone who has ever put a tutorial online. i have come on leaps and bounds recently, but still have a long way to go. maybe you can get me there :teeth:

[peterhurman]

i think its quite rare for an image to turn out exactly like you imagined it. most of the time i just move my pencil about the page, trying to pick out shapes and see what appears.

you could try doing some small thumbnail drawings before you start the final image. that way you can have a couple of passes and refine the design before going into the drawing.

[Fl3wk]

I can think of things clearly before drawing them, but it never turns out the same, maybe better, and maybe worse, but I can think quite clearly.

When im on the bus and bored I usually create a battle sequence of some such in my mind and try pull things together, its both entertaining and useful.

To help me think at times I listen to Rammstein, I dont speak german so i dont understand a word, but it somehow allows me to create images easier. Maybe you could try music you like. Or maybe it only works with music where the language is alien to you.

[figure2]

You may not yet have developed the toolset to draw from your imagination. The best way to develop this is to draw from the live model (or from photos if no life groups are in your area), put everyday objects in front of you and draw them and go outside and draw scenes from your neighborhood, parks, beach etc. Do this as much as you can. In time, you will have internalized enough of the things you have drawn that you will be better able to reconstruct the things you imagine on paper.

[Dizon]

you have to surround yourself with stuff that inspires you, like movies, comics, games, etc. and absorb all the images you see.I think this increases your visual vocabulary

[dorian]

very very interesting topics, I'd love to learn all about it..!
I'm very curious about how far you can take it.
like.. is it possible for our brain to imagine a whole scene, let's say "romeo climbing the ladder to julia" (...) and then add elements, change stuff, ROTATE the whole scene, like in a 3d prog. and then choose/compose the very best you can come up with and draw/paint it.
does it need hard training or is it just not possible? can anyone do stuff like this?
I think Nikola Tesla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla), a physicist/inventor planned pretty much all of his revolutionary devises and systems in his mind. he even TESTED them, if the electricity stuff would work etc. he had the whole thing planned and ready to be built without having touched a screwdriver. and it usually worked. sounds pretty amazing.

for some time I tried to do some training. I visualized a cube and tried to turn it around, keeping a (relatively) clear and steady mental image. after a week I could pretty much do it, but it takes a lot of time and concentration.

I think strong visualisation skills are be really helpful for every artist.
I'm just really wondering how one can train it, and if there's a limitation somewhere.

what do you guys know about it?


.

[glikster]

I know Robert Hale always talks about how figure drawing students should draw the figure from a different angle than they are sitting.
Once you know the structure of something, you should be able to draw it from any angle. The way to get there is to KNOW the structure. That means copious amounts of studies. Studies from every possible angle. Knowing the inner structure and how that relates to the outer form.

[Fl3wk]

I thought everyone could recreate objects/scenes in there minds. Hhhmm, interesting. When I need to solve a problem I visualize the problem and then metally go through the procedures seeing if there would be any flaws, they dont exactly happen (mistakes), but I just see what will work and what wouldnt this way.

I for one have lots of time to think, as I am not very social, so I guess I built up my visual compacity through thinking alot.

I also took a test in college, which I passed as a visual learner.

[lavhoes]

I thought everyone could recreate objects/scenes in there minds. Hhhmm, interesting. When I need to solve a problem I visualize the problem and then metally go through the procedures seeing if there would be any flaws, they dont exactly happen (mistakes), but I just see what will work and what wouldnt this way.

I for one have lots of time to think, as I am not very social, so I guess I built up my visual compacity through thinking alot.

I also took a test in college, which I passed as a visual learner.

It's really really hard, if not damn near impossible, to have an image in your head and use it as a direct reference because the part of your brain you're using to think up your image is also the part you need in order to visually represent it. The moment your focus shifts from visualizing something to actually drawing it, whatever image you have in your head will fade. This happens to just about everybody.

You know how, when you daydream, you kinda gloss over what you're actually seeing in favor of what you're picturing in your head? It's the same thing.

The key to drawing from your imagination is to build up a library of studies in your head that you can reference without thinking too much about it. I mean, you can draw a sphere without having to think about what it looks like beforehand, yeah? Sure, you might get an image of a sphere in your head, but once you start drawing you don't even need it as you intuitively know what a sphere looks like and how to draw it. Once you have an equal level of such intimate knowledge with other things, you'll be able to draw them from your imagination without too much trouble as well.

Most of an artist's time is probably spent doing studies, especially during the beginning years. I know that I, for one, spend damn near all my time drawing from life, books, film, etc. just to get a good enough understanding of things to where I won't be struggling to pull something straight from my brain out of nowhere. That's just impossible to do consistently, and I'd rather have a strong base library of stuff I can draw intimately instead of relying on the one-in-a-million chance of my imagination being crystal clear.

[Fl3wk]

I may have shown the wrong impression. In my first year at college I used my imagination to draw, but after that I started to draw from life all the time and hardly ever from the mind. I do use my mind when seeing how colours mix with each other and such (I paint it, but make a picture up on page), but for compositions I always use referance, I think its illogical to use your mind for accurate representations.

[russell]

it is weird. today i was trying to think of things. 'ninja' .. i would picture a ninja from my memories.. snake eyes.. shinobi in white red suit... they all seemed to be things from my past memories.. strange huh.. i seem to have trouble visualising something that i havent seen before.

i guess it is impossible because i havent got it in memory yet.

random thumbnails ftw! :)

[lavhoes]

I may have shown the wrong impression. In my first year at college I used my imagination to draw, but after that I started to draw from life all the time and hardly ever from the mind. I do use my mind when seeing how colours mix with each other and such (I paint it, but make a picture up on page), but for compositions I always use referance, I think its illogical to use your mind for accurate representations.

Oh, my apologies! I thought you said:

I thought everyone could recreate objects/scenes from there minds.

and responded accordingly, as I completely agree with you on it being illogical to even try.

I know a number of people who gave up on drawing because they couldn't draw objects they pictured in their minds, so I try to dispell that notion as often as possible to keep people from quitting in frustration over something that just isn't true at all!

[Boogieman]

Beeing able to clearly visaulize an object in your mind is a skill that can be learned. Or so I hear anyway. I've read of meditation excercises that are supposed to do that for you, one specific excercise I remember was to close your eyes and intensly focus on a simple object you're familiar with (like a house key or wacom pen) for 10 minutes. Than you do that every night and after a month or so you're supposed to experience an increased ability to visualize objects, and then you move on to other more advanced mind excercises. The book I read listed 5 or 6 different abilities our mind had and many different excercises and a training program(!) to increase all of them. Can't remember the name of the book but it was an interesting read.

I don't know if beeing able to visualize things in your mind real good will make you a better artist or not. I'm pretty bad at visualizing actually, but then again I'm also a pretty poor artist. Maybe I should dig up that book again and see if it can help me draw better :)

[dorian]

I read about lucid dreaming, very interesting.
it's staying conscious while dreaming, so you can control your dream and are aware that you are yourself and are dreaming. seems illogical but lucid dreams seem to be empirically/scientifically proven, it's not a "pseudoscience".
It has been practised in tibetan buddhism as so called "dream yoga" for over 1000 years and by the malaysian "senoi" tribe.
it seems anyone can learn it. physical laws obviously can be overrided and so today a typical thing to do in a lucid dream is flying. I wonder if you can only imagine (or dream of) places that you have already seen, or invent new stuff.

I was rather surprised to read all this, I imagine some of you are too.. Don't know if I should believe it, but check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dreaming and the links there.

if it's not objectively true it's interesting anyway :)

[Judy Warner]

I have been trying to consciously train myself to remember while doing studies (drawing) for a few weeks now and just came across this post. I have tried a few things--verbalizing as I draw, naming things like angles by the clock, making myself look first for 2 minutes while talking to myself about what I'm seeing, trying remember a single line before I draw--not sure how much it's helped. I've tried it with drawings of birds--I'm not sure if it has generalized to helping my memory or if I'm specifically better at remembering what bird poses look like. I've read that some classical teachers made the students look at the model, then go into another room to draw.

Remembering to look before I start to draw is hard for me! Judy

[Revenants]

Is it possible to have perfectly vivid images of things in your head?
Yes
Can you draw things using the pictures inside your head as reference?
Yes
Does everyone do this?
No
Can you learn to do this?
Yes

A good case to cite is nicolas tesla, because he was able to hallucinate not just people but a real world in which he experimented and changed to his liking. He was precise enough that in one case he built a generator on the outside and one inside his head. A month later, he took apart the generator inside his head and the wear and tear on the machine matched exactly what happened on the outside. Is this genius? No. Most kids can hallucinate perfectly and it just gets stamped out of us by our parents and schools. It is generally accepted that everything that ever happened in your life, your brain has stored it in perfect fidelity. With all color, sounds, smells and tastes. However, this resource is not consciously accessible for most people.

How do you get better pictures inside your head? You gotta condition yourself. A simple experiment you can do is to get a rock, a watch or something small. Put it in your hand and look at it, feel its weight and texture. Memorize all the details of it and then close your eyes and see it. Then open your eyes again and get more information and then close your eyes. After a while, you'll get a very vivid image inside your head.

Now a condition excercise would be to build very clear images of stuff. You can imagine an apple and then begin to add details to it. Ask your self questions like, what are the spots on the apple, which direction does the stem point. Then once the apple is pretty clear, put it into an enviroment and begin to build the enviroment. Use more than just images, add sounds and smells and taste and feelings. If you do this everyday for 15 minutes before you go to sleep, you'll see a big improvement very soon. Also, many times you see something in your head but what you fail to notice is how unclear the mental image is. Take that imaginery piece of rock or watch that you took so long to memorize and move it into the picture. For example, imagine a really hot girl walks into your room and jumps on you. Take that really clear imaginary rock and move it into the picture and you'll probebly notice that the image is much more blurry than the rock. You can do many things from here on, like matching the fidelity of the picture to that of the rock.

One key thing is precision, Tesla was able to make his image as precise as reality and this is also through practice. Leonardo Da Vinci did similar things but he was on a much lower caliber. He redrew thing he seen right before he falls asleep and he also stares at walls and patterns to go into a sort of hallucinatory trance... Anyhow... keep practicing.

[Egets]

I think the basic rule "you have to master the laws before you can break them" abides in drawing as well, meaning that you just have to master the "boring" realism first, once you did that it will be easier to use that as a basis, because things we draw usually still are something that already exists its just an artistical interpretation which is entirely individual to each artists the way you want to see it or portray (the fan part of being an artist)

I think its the most ultimate form of art when you have found and defined your very own style

Anyhow here are some practical examples how to visualise something before drawing

1. approach the drawing with certain style in mind whatever you want to draw your main goal is to convert it to a certain style, that is probably clowning, for instance Cheeks drawing style, you want to draw that thing in his way then you would study his drawing style and try to imagine how would he draw it

2. realism, gather references from realism, if it is about fantasy creature then you would have to choose animals that are close to your creature and then from these references mount your image

3. creative approach, start scribbling holding the pencil from very tip of it and let it loosely run on the paper then see if anything interesting starts to come out your scribble then start defining it it

4. psycedelic approach, look for any wallpapers or carpets with irregular patterns and see if you could fish out some creatures in them (weird but sometimes work)

5. the slow way, go through conventional learning process, draw lot of nudes, study color theories, lightning, shadows, landscapes etc and once you have come to certain level of mastery you will suddenly see that you have enough images in your mind to draw straight from head and your hand will even obey, well I wish, hence I haven reached this level yet :D :D

[ChrisMayernik]

This is a great thread. Yea you learn to improve the sharpness and focus of the image in your head. When I first started drawing I couldnt see anything then I got into the habit of using my hands to "mold" a 3d model of the object in my head. Now that I've been doing that for a while I can see alot of objects really sharp and if I want to create a new design I'l "mold" it with my hands and my eyes closed and then put that on paper once I find what I like. It kind of hard to explain because it looks weird when I'm moving my hands all around but just think of planes and different designs and then you use your hands to add them or move them around as a 3d program. I can draw with my eyes closed because I'm tracing the image in my head just as you would do a blind countour.

Copying photos and details is important I think. DOn't just copy a tractor and try to remember the whole thing. Look for special parts that are unique to the tractor or look for designs that are used throughout the whole machine.

I do believe some people have worse minds some have greater ones, and people who have better memories are going to learn better and be better at drawing from memory, but if you focus on that then you will be discouraged. I don't think I have such a great memory but I'm not going to let that stop me from doing my best.

[markwagner]

I just wrote this for someone else, it fits here also. Some artists don't SEE the picture and then paint it, they/we see it as we work, it's more like a waking dream, very interesting, mysterious, and keeps you one your toes.

• • the Creative Spirit and the Imagination.

• Breathe, we have all been were you are
• Hang out with really little kids, they have no problem with this issue
• You use to be a really little kid - remember
• "Get out of your head" is a great place to always get out of, try a feeling of being guided
• Learn to trust your INTUITION, practice listening, get quiet, ask a question, listen for an answer, Intuition is one of the keys.
• Connect to nature daily
• Learn to meditate, this quiets your mind, it allows space between thought. This is where artist's live, when we make art, we stop thinking and spend more time BEING
• Keep your body strong, daily, trust it, learn how it works, push it, explore your inner back country
• Make art for someone else, for something else. Often we just want to do something, anything, but it has no real purpose so our being says why? Make some art for someone who needs help, someone who is sick, for someone you love, for someone who you don't like, for teh world, for yourself.
• Make a prayer art piece for your Creative Spirit, make an alter in your room. Bow as you enter your studio, make it sacred, holy.
• Connect to mythology, Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, to some of the original image makers, get a cave art tatoo to honor your art ancestors.
• Drink or get high to get out of your head, or stop drinking and getting high.
• Loud music
• Dance, move your body, get your blood flowing
• Dive into a piece or several, stay just slightly ahead of thinking. A mentor of mine use to work on 6 paintings during the night. 2 he knew what they were about, 2 he thought he knew what they were about, and 2 he had no idea what they were about. As he worked the ones he had no idea about moved into the knew what they were about and he had already started 4 more works - they feed on each other. Then the moment you find yourself staring at a piece and don't know what the fuck to do, you turn and start on another.
• Paint whatever needs to be painted next. It's a way of being in action, simply one foot in front of the other, not trying to understand the whole picture, let it unravel as part of the great mystery that you are also a part of, trust the way.
• Read - Art & Fear : Bayles and Orland, and The Courage to Create : Rollo May
• Hum...
• Be greatful, say thanks often
• Be creative in all aspects of your life, not just with art
• Use other mediums, music, sculpt, camera, write
• Court the Muse
• Court your Muse

and may you be blessed more than ever

~M

[Dizon]

if you have an idea for a painting, then write it down. Sometimes it takes time to fully realise the whole picture.

[Egets]

I just wrote this for someone else, it fits here also. Some artists don't SEE the picture and then paint it, they/we see it as we work, it's more like a waking dream, very interesting, mysterious, and keeps you one your toes.

• • the Creative Spirit and the Imagination.

• Breathe, we have all been were you are
• Hang out with really little kids, they have no problem with this issue
• You use to be a really little kid - remember
• "Get out of your head" is a great place to always get out of, try a feeling of being guided
• Learn to trust your INTUITION, practice listening, get quiet, ask a question, listen for an answer, Intuition is one of the keys.
• Connect to nature daily
• Learn to meditate, this quiets your mind, it allows space between thought. This is where artist's live, when we make art, we stop thinking and spend more time BEING
• Keep your body strong, daily, trust it, learn how it works, push it, explore your inner back country
• Make art for someone else, for something else. Often we just want to do something, anything, but it has no real purpose so our being says why? Make some art for someone who needs help, someone who is sick, for someone you love, for someone who you don't like, for teh world, for yourself.
• Make a prayer art piece for your Creative Spirit, make an alter in your room. Bow as you enter your studio, make it sacred, holy.
• Connect to mythology, Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, to some of the original image makers, get a cave art tatoo to honor your art ancestors.
• Drink or get high to get out of your head, or stop drinking and getting high.
• Loud music
• Dance, move your body, get your blood flowing
• Dive into a piece or several, stay just slightly ahead of thinking. A mentor of mine use to work on 6 paintings during the night. 2 he knew what they were about, 2 he thought he knew what they were about, and 2 he had no idea what they were about. As he worked the ones he had no idea about moved into the knew what they were about and he had already started 4 more works - they feed on each other. Then the moment you find yourself staring at a piece and don't know what the fuck to do, you turn and start on another.
• Paint whatever needs to be painted next. It's a way of being in action, simply one foot in front of the other, not trying to understand the whole picture, let it unravel as part of the great mystery that you are also a part of, trust the way.
• Read - Art & Fear : Bayles and Orland, and The Courage to Create : Rollo May
• Hum...
• Be greatful, say thanks often
• Be creative in all aspects of your life, not just with art
• Use other mediums, music, sculpt, camera, write
• Court the Muse
• Court your Muse

and may you be blessed more than ever

~M

great ideas !!!! thanks for sharing !!!!!!

[*CreyativeBeauty*]

What I do when visualizing a piece I sit and think about it for a minute and I write down all the parts that I may need to get what I'm visualizing down. So I get some photo reference for the idea that I wrote down and piece them all together to get my concept of the drawing.

It amazes me that some people can see it in their head first and draw it straight out of their head.

[Mischa rewrite]

Hmm.. another good way is to design each peice of the art one by one.. and draw them.. like if it's a costume design the belt, pants, shirt, accesorries etc etc one at a time.. and then you have an idea of how it will look and you can put it all together. Also, if you have an image in your head that's kinda fuzzy.. try this- zoom in! that's all you have to do and draw each part one by one.. after a while it get's really hard though so take breaks.. don't hurt yourself thinking too hard.. which i do all the time -_- lol

[Motility]

Maybe it’s a little like typing (which I’m just now learning to do correctly); before Mavis Beacon if I wanted to type a letter I’d start by finding the a… o.k. now we need an L, Oh wait we need a space, …o.k. space. Now we need an L…where the hell is the L?
Now I just sort of type "a letter”. Now that my mind and body know where everything is it just sort of flows, al beit choppy and slowly. I just mean that I’m thinkin more about what I’m saying than how to do it. I had to work out the mechanics of it. I had to develop my tool set as Figure2 said.

And knowing the subject, being passionate, or familiar with it is key, certainly. I know almost nothing about Ogres, so I’d have a hard time envisioning one. However, I sketched my wife in that all too familiar stance that we could refer to as giving “the evil eye”. I could see that very clearly. Very clearly, indeed. (I think I’d rather see an ogre.)

But even with that – doing twenty or so “line of action” gesture sketches and also some manikin gesture pose sketches helped immensely. Not only with the construction but also with clarifying the image in my head. I’m sure that I couldn’t have nailed it with out those exercises. And I already knew so much about that stance and the meaning which I was trying to convey. The image was already formed in my mind.

Try asking more questions of your mental image. Refine the image more first. What is the Ogre doing? He’s climbing the ladder to julia! With an apple in his mouth! And a cube in his pocket. Wait do ogres even have pockets?

I’ve been drawing mostly from the mind lately and have recently become aware that it would be more beneficial to me, right now, to draw from life as I am a self taught newby.

About my wife, by the way… you should meet her. Then maybe you’d know how to draw an Oh I didn’t say that!
No really honey. I didn’t say that!