Brokeback Mountain [Archive] - ConceptArt.org Forums

Helium Macaroni

February 20th, 2006, 12:53 AM

Define chick flick. I guess if gorgeous cinematography, heartfelt and stirring acting, pertinent social and economic commentary, sadness, longing, and tenderness are the criteria for a chick flick, then I guess I'm a chick flick guy. In all actuality, it’s not the gayest movie ever. That would be the Birdcage, which is a fantastic fucking movie also, except this film more accurately and artistically touches upon many serious current societal themes and isn’t just a silly romp. It’s a relevant and touching movie even if it isn’t the epic it was billed as.

The love story is only part of it. Aside from the romantic relationship between the two characters, it’s a story about crushing economic situations, disdain for a particular lifestyle, being barred from expressing the most natural of feelings, emotional implosion and being forced to live a lie, and its all done with exceptional acting, fine storytelling, and fantastic visuals. It is indeed not the best movie ever, but considering its contemporary context it’s a very fine story that is artistically done.

Another huge element is how the movie tries to dismantle stereotypes. There are people of different sexual orientation in every level of society, and this movie tries to discuss the occurrence of those dispositions in a place where such behavior is met with friction, and how the characters suffer in response.

And you can't honestly tell if John Wayne would be ashamed. I'd safely bet he knew more than a few gay people during his career... its Hollywood after all. I don't understand how a love story between two guys who mean no harm to others somehow cast shame on westerns, considering this movie isn't one. It’s a ridiculous notion.

JERI

February 20th, 2006, 01:37 AM

...gorgeous cinematography, heartfelt and stirring acting, pertinent social and economic commentary, sadness, longing, and tenderness...

That will be chick flick yes.

Rascar Capac

February 20th, 2006, 02:08 AM

you want a see a good cowboy movie that should be an oscar contender?
The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada - directed and starring Tommy lee Jones

Helium Macaroni

February 20th, 2006, 02:29 AM

That will be chick flick yes.

Chick flick or not, it was still enjoyable.

Scubasteve

February 20th, 2006, 10:47 AM

Stupid thing I said....I take it back

Helium Macaroni

February 20th, 2006, 03:39 PM

And as usual SS your ability to oversimplify and assume blows me away. :teeth: If you didn't want your comment elaborated upon and discucced, why say it?

Scubasteve

February 20th, 2006, 09:12 PM

Stupid thing I said....I take it back

Spacemanchuck

February 21st, 2006, 04:32 AM

I have to agree with hpslashlvr, the movie just isn't worth all the hype that it's cracked up to be. It is a well done movie for sure, but the fact that the story centers around two gay shepards seems more of a gimic to draw attention to an otherwise normal love story. I mean I realize there are certain conflicts that add to the crapyness of their situation, being gay cowboys and all they don't want to be killed for their lifestyle. So that sucked, but there are other movies that explored this in different ways...

But I supose that is the point, there hasn't been a big Hollywood flic with this sort of star power attempting to tackle this certain very volitile subject matter.

Like I mentioned, it is not the only movie out there that explores similar plot devices. Go rent The Graffiti Artist, u won't get Heath's performance, and infact you'll get a very slow fictional documentary, but that same shock value is there just like that ever so romantic tent scene.

All and all, like I said it was a good movie, but it's not the super fantastic movie that you hear. I was looking forward to this increadable ground breaking flic with that something that just makes it worthy of twelve million different shiny awards... For me that something was no where to be found. Not hating just saying...

Ruinangel

March 11th, 2006, 11:17 AM

Okay so yes literally it is a GAY cowboy movie. It is still a great commentary on our society!!

Mort

March 11th, 2006, 11:42 AM

bluefooted

March 11th, 2006, 11:52 AM

Mort, that's about the stupidest shit I've ever read on these forums. It's so damn stupid, and for so many reasons, it's not even funny.

Anyhow, I enjoyed the movie for what it was: a love story. I might have liked it more if it wasn't so overhyped, but what can ya do? To me, the main point wasn't that they were gay lovers, but two very different types of people who just happened to love each other. One of them was willing to give up everything for their love, while the other wasn't... until it was too late.

echino

March 11th, 2006, 12:30 PM

Trying to be non-bias in my opinion and keep this short. Overall, i can see where this movie is very ground breaking and controversial, being that the plot follows two gay men, and their struggle to be with one another, but overall, it's not THAT great of a movie. To me it feels like another romeo and juliet story. Two starcrossed lovers who can't be together for certain social reasons. Sure, for some it's a tear jerker, but overall, it's not perfect, and if it had been about a man and a woman, people would have labeled it as a "chick flick". The most amazing thing to me was that Ang Lee directed it. Crouching Tiger Hidden Draggon to Brokeback Mountain shows a lot of diversity. Props to him for winning the Oscar.

3ch1n0

koshime

March 11th, 2006, 01:26 PM

What do you call two lonely shepards on a mountain...?

Two puffs on a hill :)

Thunder Doom

March 11th, 2006, 01:27 PM

pwn'd
http://www.cherylsjournal.com/images/crash-poster.jpg

Sorry Ang, but people are still more obsessed with melanin than penis etiquette.

That's why at any one time on comedy central there are 20 comedians doing the same tired old "white people do _____, black/latino/asian/eskimo people do ______" routine to every 1 comedian doing the tired old "straight people ________, gay people ________" routine.

Besides, (a majority of) people go to movies to be entertained, a movie whose entire marketing campaign is "THESE PEOPLE ARE GAY, ISN'T THAT WHACK?" isn't going to seem like a fun watch to John Q. At least "Crash" had a title that implied the possibility of violence or car crashes (or both), and America loooooooooves car crashes.

Thunder Doom

March 11th, 2006, 01:46 PM

Mort: Cowboys were dumb anyway, almost as bad as ninjas. Pirates forever!

JERI

March 11th, 2006, 02:13 PM

A movie with Sandra Bullock in it actually won Best Picture? Now this I gotta check out.

Mort

March 11th, 2006, 02:39 PM

Mort: Cowboys were dumb anyway, almost as bad as ninjas. Pirates forever!

i dunno about that man, the ninjas got them socks with the separate toe thing.

N D Hill

March 11th, 2006, 02:48 PM

i dont like it man. gay cowboys. and men in skirts on the streets.
ass parades and whatnot. wtf is wrong with the planet. just becouse some dudes that loves stuff, fuck each other in the ass doesnt mean we have to watch it.
im no homophobe ,and i think the more fags the more chicks for me. but why. why do this to our cool cowboys? cant we even have the clint and duke now.

the duke is turning in his grave. and planning to return to kick some fags in the nuts. -howdy pilgrim! ouch *kick* aaaaa... . hehe

some clever feminist is making the guys think that beeing man is beeing a fag or something. soon there will be the 7 pillowbiters from akira kurasawyouass.

can we have the samurai without gay stuff atleast i ask all the feminist nazis ugly women with comfortable shoes out there that never reads this anyways.

come on ppl! damn it. bah fuckers.
its like me making a movie with some famous feminist but in my movie she fucks with horses and call it love. you know.whatever.

hate when they do this. its not even contraversially cool with gay cowboys.
we allready have the ymca group.

and all guys trying to stay with the time and beeing all political correct and just watching the meaning of man beeing turned into something that stands for fags. no mam shirt is on and im ready to dropkick some lesbian treehugging feminsit nazi.

sorry hehe. no but seriously, this movie sucks and not just the guys eachother. its like hollywood has like a couple of millions over to make crappy movies for or something.

be fun if hollywood even tried to make a cool movie instead of all this crap .

why do chicks want to watch a fag movie anyways?

thats it. im gonna make a sheep fucking movie but with dialog and call it a great movie.

Mort, I swear. After reading this post, the one in the X-Men thread, and a few others, I have to conclude that you are easily, without a doubt, the dumbest person on the internet; and that's saying something! You are about 45 cards short of a full deck. You are an IQ vacuum. Do you know what that means? No? It means that your IQ is so low that it creates a "black-hole" that's capable of sucking down the intellect of even those around you within a reasonable radius. It's a miracle you were even able to type such a long post without being distracted by the closest shiny object or something that squeaks when you squeeze it. Seriously, I'm not trying be insulting or anything. I'm just requesting that you do the socially responsible thing and fit yourself with a radio collar that allows us to track you, release yourself into the wild and steer of civilization.

Mort

March 11th, 2006, 02:53 PM

Mort, I swear. After reading this post, the one in the X-Men thread, and a few others, I have to conclude that you are easily, without a doubt, the dumbest person on the internet; and that's saying something! You are just you are about 45 cards short of a full deck. You are an IQ vacuum. Do you know what that means? No? It means that your IQ is so low that it creates a "black-hole" that's capable of sucking down the intellect of even those around you within a reasonable radius. It's a miracle you were even able to type such a long post without being distracted by the closest shiny object or something that squeaks when you squeeze it. Seriously, I'm not trying be insulting or anything. I'm just requesting that you do the socially responsible thing and fit yourself with a radio collar that allows us to track you, release yourself into the wild and steer of civilization.

guess that means that you dont think like i do? well everyone is entitled to an oppinion i guess. good thing you wasnt insulting thou.

aesir

March 11th, 2006, 03:17 PM

mort's not retarded. hes just backwards. like a hick!

Mort

March 11th, 2006, 03:23 PM

yea ok watch your gay films then. hehe.

Red_Rook

March 11th, 2006, 04:00 PM

Mort i swear to god your a fucking idiot, pull yourself together and maybe take a look at the bullshit that is coming out of your mouth before you hit the post button so franticly because i swear if you dont ill ban your ass.

Mort

March 11th, 2006, 04:47 PM

well i stand for what i think and say. hehe just diffrent oppinions man. dont need to pull the power card on me .
havent gone berzerk or personal on one of his oppinions before , i just say what i think and sometimes i get proven wrong. be cool if he said what he thought of the movie instead.
well you do what you want. you hold the power to ban and whatnot.

what i thought was cool about this site and artists is that you dont censor and hold back freedome of speech and stuff.
gay cowboy movies and the ppl who are against them sort of thing.

havent thought about that ppl acctually read what i type.

as for the personal name calling, i dont do that unless the guy is standing in front of me.

well as i said do what you want i cant stop you man.

Red_Rook

March 11th, 2006, 06:17 PM

mort, think about it its all in the way you phrase it. YOu can have whatever opinions you like, i have nothing against that, but lets try and not be blatantly offensive k?

DormantWalker

March 13th, 2006, 04:08 PM

haha I can't help but laugh at the immaturity of some of the people on these forums, then again with age comes maturity (sometimes), and every-one is in fact granted there own opinion (unfortunate at times) but none-the-less.

Brokeback was a beautiful movie displaying raw un-tainted love. They stepped out of the Hollywood motto "gay is ok if it's funny" I thought it was possibly one of the best love stories of our time (obviously in my own opinion)

:yayca:

Scubasteve

March 13th, 2006, 04:10 PM

Thats the worst opinion ever! jj

DormantWalker

March 13th, 2006, 05:34 PM

Thats the worst opinion ever! jj
:) :) :)

cotron

March 13th, 2006, 11:33 PM

im no homophobe ,and i think the more fags the more chicks for me.

Ahh, my two favorite things- people who are bigoted always have to clarify before they say something totally offensive that the poop spewing from their mouths doesn't make them homophobic/racist/etc...

and then! The line about more "fags" equating to more women for you- that just makes me chuckle. Just because the playing field is slightly larger doesn't mean you're bringing the right equipment to play. The world could be overflowing with single & available women, but that doesn't mean you're getting more action than that bottle of lubriderm and kleenex.

I haven't seen the movie nor read the book, so I'm not really able to have much of an opinion on it- but I'm willing to assume that the shit-talkers here haven't seen it either.

Necronomicouch

March 13th, 2006, 11:46 PM

I'm going to ignore Mort's post since my ears don't hear on the frequency of "intolerant asshole", but I will say that I walked into that movie thinking it was going to be really stupid, boring and pointless, but actually walked away from that movie with tears in my eyes, moved by the message, and reccommending it to others.

A real pleasant surprise.

darth massacre

March 14th, 2006, 12:48 AM

Ooooh, I forgot about this thread. I actually DID watch it...with 3 other guys.....It was wierd, but it would probably be more wierd if I watched it with 3 girls.

Potential spoilers

Anyway, the film deservedly did not win best picture. It was great, don't get me wrong. Well filmed, great angles, beautiful colors, everything you expect from Lee Ang (Chinese put their last names first). Though its really not as good as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.

Acting was competent. 4 young actors (Heath, Jake, Michelle and Anne) all did pretty well. I think Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal were really into their role and pulled off a convincing act. You could catch them checking each other out and you know something's up even if you don't know its a Gay movie. Gay men do check each other out, I've shared bunks with Gay troops during my time in the army, I get checked out on a daily basis....in the shower, before bed...even in formation. Good thing they like more muscular guys.

I absolutely loved the way they used their children to tell the passing of time. At each interval, we get a shot of their kids (especially Ennis's daughter) as time goes by. But the thing I had problem with was the way they aged. Jack Twist had a moustache, his wife had different hair to suit the era as time went on, but they hardly aged. Ennis did show more aging, but you don't see a huge difference. Only Ennis's wife showed enough difference (after divorce) so it was a little confusing for me right up till the end.

As for the story. I'll comment on this. They had it good. Gay or not, they had it good. I've known people who went thru over a decade knowing they can't be with the person they love. I've known people who could not be together because they found each other too late and were stuck with other commitments (loyalty is an important virtue in asian societies). Even for myself, I couldn't be with this girl coz I made too many mistakes over the past 7 years and she's in Japan now while I'm stuck in Canada and we'll both be away for at least 3 more years....and she's fallen in love with Japan, while I've fallen in love with Canada. We have MSN but yeah that's it. So the story didn't hit me at all. They had one good summer...then they saw each other 3-4 times each year over what - 20-30 years? I did't even see her that many times over the last 2 years. They had it good....everyone who had seen the movie thought it was so sad coz they couldn't be with each other.....bullshit....there are people out there with more tear-jerker type forbidden love stories that I've heard and seen....and for all of them, life goes on. If anything, I'm jealous and pissed off more than sad after watching Brokeback, because they had it a lot better than most people. The person I really felt bad for in the entire movie was Ennis's wife. Poor woman.

Anyway, to me, if not for the Gay angle to it, Brokeback was a very "above average" movie. I'll agree and disagree with hpslashlvr, its controversial, not really overrated, coz I've heard bad reviews about it as well as the good. Its definitely a 7.5/10 but that's just me. Its nothing out of the ordinary, but then, human drama - no matter how ordinary - appeals to most people.

One thing I do have to mention. I have Gay friends. I sometimes joke with them about it and they will joke back. There's a fine difference between being insensitive/discriminatory and being accepting and able to handle it with jokes. You guys do not want to hear the ongoing joke I have with a Gay army pal about the sheep in Brokeback.

dindon

March 14th, 2006, 12:55 AM

I watched it. A decent movie, not as good as everyone says. It's important because they are gay, and that's it. If this was a straight relationship, it would have been a total flop. I didn't buy Heath Ledger as a cowboy at all. I think Jake Gyllenhaal is a pretty good actor though.

JERI

March 14th, 2006, 01:42 AM

Though its really not as good as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.

You do realise that Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon is a horrible piece of drama right? I'd say Brokeback is way better than CTHD in that regard.

darth massacre

March 14th, 2006, 03:53 PM

You do realise that Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon is a horrible piece of drama right? I'd say Brokeback is way better than CTHD in that regard.
Technically better. Or should I say, more beautiful locations. I don't really care much about storylines in martial arts flicks...and neither should anyone.

mlsfishi

March 14th, 2006, 03:55 PM

Personally, I think it's a good story, but the screenplay sucks. I have no idea why it actually won, or even got nominated for anything. There are so many scenes of useless babble, silence, etc, that don't -do- anything as far as development, backstory and what you may goes.

I think...the movie was mostly just popular -because- it had the gay relationship, instead of it being a really good movie.

You couldn't understand Heath. period. I don't care if he's -supposed- to mumble, you still need to understand the lines of a main character!

asoir

March 14th, 2006, 04:03 PM

Can't we all just...get along?

Chronologic

March 15th, 2006, 09:16 PM

No homo.

Scubasteve

March 16th, 2006, 11:35 AM

I don't know if anyone was offended by any of my posts in this thread, but I went ahead and replaced them with this anyway (Stupid thing I said....I take it back). I was trying to be funny, but I've recently come to the conclusion that a sarcastic attitude isn't my best quality and have vowed to change that about myself. This is more due to some personal changes I've undergone recently then the censorship post Davi made yesterday, but regardless of the reason, I apologize to anyone I may have offended and hope not to be so arrogant, abrasive and anything else I have been. Anyway, talk to you guys in another thread....PEACEEEEEE!

Steph Laberis

March 16th, 2006, 01:31 PM

Ah, now I understand Davi's actions... I didn't see this thread till after the censor thread.

This saddens me. I know the community here is predominantly made of white hetero dudes, but that's no excuse for some of the derogatory comments made here. Certainly makes me (and lots of other members, regardless of orientation and gender) uncomfortable, angry, alienated... the list goes on.

*sigh*

rblitz7

April 27th, 2006, 04:58 PM

just watched it, overall i thought it was very good movie but it seemed that the jumping around to the different scenes hurt the emotional impact the movie could have had. But I did watch the movie in 2 sittings so maby that was it.

claudeEGYPT

April 27th, 2006, 06:57 PM

Gay is wrong. Man + Woman = Baby
Man + Man/Woman + Woman= .....Love?

GriNGo

April 30th, 2006, 11:21 PM

true!

cotron

May 1st, 2006, 04:15 AM

killing your fellow human being = wrong, but everyone still flocks to the theater to see it...

I don't understand why people get so flipped out over what two consenting adults do with their lives, when you don't see this kind of ardent stance when there are films made about shit that's "wrong" such as murder, theft, deception, bigotry, etcetera...

but anyway, back on topic- thanks for your input guys! it really changed my opinion on gay people! I'm going to go make a few babies tonight. Cuz the whole point of "love" is to procreate, right? I'm really upset that James Bond fucks around so much without the intention of making babies... that shit is straight up wrong!!!

Flake

May 1st, 2006, 07:27 AM

Gay is wrong. Man + Woman = Baby
Man + Man/Woman + Woman= .....Love?

Fool.

Aether

May 1st, 2006, 07:32 AM

I'm really upset that James Bond fucks around so much without the intention of making babies... that shit is straight up wrong!!!

008,009,010,011

imo if two beings love each other its all the same wheter theyre both of the same sex or not.

claudeEGYPT

May 1st, 2006, 08:31 AM

Redder

May 1st, 2006, 01:09 PM

A man's reproductive organs happen to fit in a woman's reproductive organs.

Crap, I've been doing it wrong all these years. :P

JERI

May 1st, 2006, 01:19 PM

geoffd

May 1st, 2006, 01:21 PM

OKay, im gonna try and make this sound as little obscene as possible, i dont know if you believe in God or not, but whatever, lets talk biology:
A man's reproductive organs happen to fit in a woman's reproductive organs.. co-incidence? I think not.
You may not believe in God, but you should know how things were meant to be.

lol a man's reproductive organ is long and cylindrical. it is meant to fit into any opening that is round and hollow (?) this includes, but is not limited to, the mouth, a woman, a sock, the hole in my matress named linda, etc. now where a man chooses to put his organ is his choice and if you believe in God you will know that he gave us all FREE WILL.

anyway, i didn't really get the ending.

**SPOLIER***

did they kill jack or was that ennis' imagination thinking the worst?

DormantWalker

May 1st, 2006, 01:53 PM

OKay, im gonna try and make this sound as little obscene as possible, i dont know if you believe in God or not, but whatever, lets talk biology:
A man's reproductive organs happen to fit in a woman's reproductive organs.. co-incidence? I think not.
You may not believe in God, but you should know how things were meant to be.

bahahahahaha!!!!!

People are also not "meant" to discriminate, but that doesn't seem to matter now does it?

Love is not "meant" to be between man and woman anymore than its "meant" to be man and man or woman and woman for that matter..

So I hope I didn't totally trash what you "meant" to get across.

DormantWalker

May 1st, 2006, 01:54 PM

did they kill jack or was that ennis' imagination thinking the worst?

Yup they killed him

Mort

May 1st, 2006, 02:29 PM

nothing says love like anal sex.

Aether

May 1st, 2006, 02:30 PM

ClaudeEGYPT so those people who are gay should feel like theyre abominations from how things were meant to be by this god?

Reproduction has little to do with love eventhough the two are connected and usually one leads to the other, but the process of "falling in love" in my opinion isnt based on wheter one organ fits another.

EDIT: Dormant said it alrdy and 10 other people lol

DormantWalker

May 1st, 2006, 03:02 PM

nothing says love like anal sex.
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/8761/buttsecks7bo.jpg

claudeEGYPT

May 1st, 2006, 06:13 PM

Love Does Not mean Sex.. get it?

I am just talking biology.. And you cant possibly try to tell me that fitting your reproductive organ in the wall or in a mattress is the same as in a woman's.. that's off topic.. please be serious.

God did give free choice, sin is a free choice, you can choose to do that.
(And by sin, i mean the biblical definition of a crime against God)

Now, here's a definition of love so that you guys get the point and the picture, here:
Love is the unselfish act of wanting the best for someone else, and doing something about it. It does not rejoice over the wrong, but rejoices in the truth

So, brotherly love with the same sex is not the same as Romantic love with the same sex. BIIIIG difference. Dont try and make them to be the same thing. Just the same as liking someone isnt like Loving someone.

Two more things: Being Gay is a Choice, i repeat.. A CHOICE!
And Lastly Aether, you are right, love is not measured in reproduction terms. It is measured in terms of how much you are willing to give for someone else.

Please, think and read before answering, dont just write a quickie and post it.
If you want to talk serious.. let's get serious.

Flake

May 1st, 2006, 08:11 PM

I am just talking biology.. And you cant possibly try to tell me that fitting your reproductive organ in the wall or in a mattress is the same as in a woman's..
Na, the wall/mattress/hand/blowup doll won't expect you to call them or buy them breakfast.

God did give free choice, sin is a free choice, you can choose to do that.
(And by sin, i mean the biblical definition of a crime against God)
Sooo gayness is a sin? Didn't God create gay people? He runs the show, surely if gayness was not part of His plan He would not permit it to exist?
Now, here's a definition of love so that you guys get the point and the picture, here:
Love is the unselfish act of wanting the best for someone else, and doing something about it. It does not rejoice over the wrong, but rejoices in the truth
Don't see how that definition excludes gays at all, what's your point..?
Two more things: Being Gay is a Choice, i repeat.. A CHOICE!
Is being straight a choice too then? It sure as fuck does NOT feel like it in my head, my brain appears to be pre-programmed to find intelligent and funny dark haired women crazy attractive, almost like it's in there at a BIOS level and I have no control over it, I have no reason to believe that some other guys brains aren't wired to feel the same way about hairy arsed blokes called Joe..
Besides, why on earth would anyone choose to be gay in a century where it will only cause them trouble and make them the object of hatred for narrow minded fools? Straight is the easier option, why make your life difficult? Oh yeah, they have no choice..

Gay or straight is NOT a choice, I could no more choose to be gay than I could choose to like celery or to support England at football, I might be able to fake it for a bit but sooner or later hubby would catch me sunk nuts deep into a smart, funny, brunette female..(possibly wearing a Sweden or Paraguay footie strip, eating red meat..) .

And Lastly Aether, you are right, love is not measured in reproduction terms. It is measured in terms of how much you are willing to give for someone else.
I don't see how that definition excludes gays at all..what's your point?
Please, think and read before answering, dont just write a quickie and post it.
If you want to talk serious.. let's get serious.
I could suggest the same to you, think first post later. You might want to join the rest of the world in this century while you're at it (Check your calendar, it's the little thing on the bottom right of your desktop..).

Until then, people might find it difficult to take you "serious".

Final thought: what does it matter to you what other people do with their genitals anyway? A mans pants are his own business.

claudeEGYPT

May 2nd, 2006, 05:54 AM

Flake, if you dont mind, this thread's main topic is about a gay "love" portrayed in a movie.. so it makes it my business to talk about it.. if you dont want to read, then dont open this thread. Easy.

Let's go back to the weee early stages of life, i dont know what you believe, but this is the generally accepted version of how things happened:

"The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."-- Obviously it means that because man was lonely, God created A WOMAN for Adam, he did not create another man.. co-incidence? i think not.

God didnt create Gay people, who said that?

I leave a verse from the Holy Bible that can answer a lot of your concerns about nature of a human being, is he/she naturally straight? Or Gay? Or something all together different.

Romans 1:26-27
"For even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

And a few Keywords:
Lust: excitement of the mind
Unseemly: an indecency
Recompence :requital

Also the relevance of my definition of Love: To be able to distinguish between loving sexually and true love(my definition)

I think you were programmed to like women because you are a guy! If you burn so much in lust, then that may change! People have been known to change their orientation all the time, If you dont believe me, i'll get you some resources of Straights becoming gays, and gays becoming straights. It is a change of mind, an attitude.

I am being serious, you havent gotten me a single valid piece of proof, all you have done is talk.

I am sorry if this is offensive to anyone. But its the truth.

Carnifex

May 2nd, 2006, 06:17 AM

the bible isn't the truth.
lust doesn't equal love.
true love isn't restricted to man and woman.

how do you expect someone to come up with proof without talking?
people DO change their sexual orientation,yes,but that's rather a matter of feelings than choice. you can't help feeling attracted to certain people,can you?
and being gay certainly isn't a sin. not from the 7 biblical sins,and the ten commandments also don't say anything against it. AND god hasn't ever punished someone for being gay,as far as my knowledge goes. the romans were brought down by their own corruption and vanity,their crimes and sins,but not because they acted gay.

claudeEGYPT

May 2nd, 2006, 06:42 AM

It is clear you dont read your bible. Please Go To Leviticus 20:13

V13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
This does not refer to being executed.. this refers to Going to Hades

If you dont believe in the bible, that is another matter all together.
The only ethics in this world come from the bible or some other religion.
If you dont have a religion than you are un-ethical and live by family/friend's standards(those standards may not be bad) but are considered un-ethical.

Find your proof, (biological/research/whatever..) and then Talk about it here.

God has punished people for being Gay. In the old testament, refer to : Sodom and Gomorrah

Also, the homosexuals/fornicators/etc.. will not receive the kingdom of eternal life(Heaven) unless they choose to repent of their ways:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"V9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
V10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Carnifex

May 2nd, 2006, 06:45 AM

well,if you chose to live your life alone by these standards and ethics,i can't hinder you.
i chose to be more open minded.

claudeEGYPT

May 2nd, 2006, 06:51 AM

I agree with open mindedness. I try and do that as often as i can, but i'll be honest with you.
The Bible has given me more insight than any other book that i have read in my life, and that is not just bla bla and religious talk. This is real. You may not believe what is in the bible, but i do advise that you explore the religions, we live in a real world, there is no such thing as co-incidence.
The looming fate, which is death is apparent, and we cant elude it, just out of pre-caution.. that you dont end up in Hell, look into the religions, to at least save your own skin!

And do not be shy, ask and test the things around you, make sure everything is real and based on solid proof.
A last piece of advice: Do Not Go With The Flow.

Thanks for reading this, i hope you have benefitted from this in some way.

Carnifex

May 2nd, 2006, 07:05 AM

hmm not sure if i go with the flow,but i daresay i most often don't.
anyways,you're right that i haven't studied religions enough,but tbh i'm not that interested either. i read into the beginning of the bible but it struck me more as a fantasy tale than anything else. i'm sure you could read lots of points for your own life into it,but i'd rather take those as loose guidelines,if at all.
i strongly believe that there IS coincidence,atleast as far as that a higher being just "planted" the starting point which then evolved to whatever situations we get in. i have to say,i don't believe in hell. why would a higher being (i don't believe in the GOD) that created all these facets of life and equipped us with a free will punish us in eternity for using it? perhaps ab-using it,but what's the point of punishing someone after he's lived throughout all his good and bad aspects of life? he won't remember all the bad deeds he's done in life,and if he's punished for eternity in death,he can't go and change his lifestyle according to the lessons he learned through his punishment.

claudeEGYPT

May 2nd, 2006, 07:26 AM

I like the way you think.
It is good that you have thought about all of this, normally, i'd agree with you, but i have read most of the bible, i sorta figured out how God Works, and why there's a hell to start with!
I know lots of the bible sounds a lot like Zeus and the Gods at war, Mythical.
I guess i agree with you to a certain extent.

In explanation: Hell(in my opinion) isnt a raging fire with people ablaze and fighting. Hell is a place where God is absent!

What God Wants: God gave all humanity the freedom of choice, you can either follow sin, or you can choose God. But you cant live in both.
Just as No Slave has two masters, one will always gain the most of the slave. (Not that we are slaves or anything)

So Basically what God has done, is he's put us all on earth, we all have the choice, we make those choices everyday of our lives.
If by the end, we choose sin over God. God condemns us to Hell, which is a place that is free of God. Basically, he's given us what we want! Sinners can go and do their own thing, but away from God!

And, if you choose God, God allows you into his dominion(Heaven) and basically you get to hang out with him for eternity! Thus all giving people what they want. (+ there's lots of added bonuses that come with hanging out with God)

So in both cases, God satisfies all people's wants.

he can't go and change his lifestyle according to the lessons he learned through his punishment.

This is true, assuming that the human has lived his whole life, not knowing right from wrong. God is just, if there is a person like that, who just doesnt know right from wrong, God will justify that, and act accordingly.

One final sentance: God is a person, he's not an autocratic executioner with an axe in hand waiting for someone to screw up. That is NOT God.
He's a lot Gentler, he is Justice, love, patience.
(I know this sounds a bit new, maybe somewhat unreal. But i kid you not, God is real, and this is what i stand for)
God basically wants you to choose him! And I'd choose him anyday.. there are many reasons to choose him! :)

AndreasM

May 2nd, 2006, 07:29 AM

God has punished people for being Gay. In the old testament, refer to : Sodom and Gomorrah

ummm...what is god?

We don't know there is a god, but the majority of our population choose to belive so. In my opinion, this is a human thing, and pherhaps, a hint to the fact that ther might exist a greater force of creation. The christian god suggest a male authority that punishes humans that do stuff he don't like, wich to me, proves how extremely self centered we humans are. Pepole are pepole, we live our lives, make our mistakes and try out different stuff, and if there was a god up in heaven who disliked all that, we would be wiped out long before now.

edit: sorry i didn't se your recent post. Actually, i belive in the god you describe, but i have a hard time straying away from the fact that god is a man-made utopic authority, rather than the creator of everything. Either way, we have our beliefs, nothing to do about that.

claudeEGYPT

May 2nd, 2006, 07:46 AM

We sure dont have biological proof that points to god's existance.
But as an artist, i think Nature is the biggest proof of God's existance.
When you study human anatomy, or just looking at how a cell works, it is almost impossible to doubt that there's a creator.

Think also about light, dark, trees, animals, the list goes on and on and on. Surely, this is not a co-incidence. The fact that earth is the only planet in existance that has this sort of life is no accident.

I know Christianity has been twisted and distorted by people, perhaps you should forget everything you know about it. And Go back to the Bible, the bible is the cornerstone of christianity, you will not be disappointed, i guarantee it!

Also, We are bound to make mistakes.. even if we are "extra holy"
God knows that this will happen. That's one of the reasons people pray, to ask for forgiveness, and also, to have a conversation with a supreme power.
Doesnt that sound amazing.. ? A human conversing with his creator like a friend?
Personally, i pray to God about personal affairs, like my thoughts on people, studies, emotions.. etc.
Pretty much the same stuff you'd say to a friend. Just deeper.

Number_6

May 2nd, 2006, 08:00 AM

We sure dont have biological proof that points to god's existance.
But as an artist, i think Nature is the biggest proof of God's existance.
When you study human anatomy, or just looking at how a cell works, it is almost impossible to doubt that there's a creator.

And yet a great many do. This (http://www.talkorigins.org/) site ought to give you some background on why.

Think also about light, dark, trees, animals, the list goes on and on and on. Surely, this is not a co-incidence. The fact that earth is the only planet in existance that has this sort of life is no accident.

The universe is pretty vast. How do you know it's the only planet in existense with this sort of life?

I noticed a few posts above you were quoting from the book of Romans as proof that homosexuality is a choice. If I'm not mistaken, Romans was attributed to Paul, who never made any claim to be infallible. I don't see how that can be justifiably called proof.

And out of curiosity, are you opposed to contraception as well? If not, your arguments seem somewhat hypocritical.

Carnifex

May 2nd, 2006, 08:06 AM

(sorry,i'll respond later,gotta travel to another town)

Tyranx

May 2nd, 2006, 08:17 AM

The fact that earth is the only planet in existance that has this sort of life is no accident.

This comment strikes me as utterly closed minded.

We haven't sent humans past the moon, which is only 3 days ride away. And to think that there are BILLIONS of galaxies, each one containing BILLIONS of stars and solar systems as our own.

its the same as living on a little island, you look around and see nothing but vast ocean in all directions, and conclude the whole world is one big ocean and your standing on the only piece of dry dirt.

We haven't even left the protective cocoon of our own solar system. Voyager 1 and 2 which were launched back in the 70's haven't even entered Interstellar space.

I hope I don't offend anyone saying this, but to me religion was created in order to try and explain the world in an age when science was just getting started or didn't exist at all. If I didn't know anything of science and saw a lightning bolt strike I'd agree it must be the wrath of god.

To me the bible is just another book, it is only holy to those that deem it to be. It is just a collection of stories, some fact and some fiction, thats all.

For those who say science is the new religion, it is not, Science explains HOW things work, but not WHY, thats the job of religion. Scientology doesn't count as science btw, thats just a new age religion. ;)

Scubasteve

May 2nd, 2006, 08:20 AM

I agree with some of what Egypts saying. Having said that, I think its a common problem for Christians to point out certain things saying "thats bad!, Thats bad!" and I don't think its helpful to anyone. Gay people (I think) feel they have no choice, so to them maybe they don't. God loves gay people just like everyone else, and to draw the distinction between homosexuality and any other sin is misleading. If God hates gay people, he hates everyone, including me. I don't think its that way. People are going around living the best they know how in the majority, and if you, not even knowing the person and what they are about, and who they are, start telling them they need to change their ways then your not going to change anyones mind. If you really want to change someones mind because you feel you can help them, then you owe it to them to get to know them. I used to feel I always had to state my ophinion in all these "God, religious, politcal, etc" threads, but have since realized that most of the people who enter into these discussions already have their minds made up one way or the other, and to those who don't I would come off judgemental and pias. Thats not helping anyone out. So lets be friends and freakin draw!!!!

claudeEGYPT

May 2nd, 2006, 08:42 AM

I looked at the site you gave me, according to my understanding, it is of evolution, and scientific resorts to how the world was created.
I believe this is a good subject to talk about, what is the question though?
If i believe in evolution? No i dont, i believe in adaptation though.

Why is Paul infallible? He is a part of the Holy Bible, why is he infallible? The Bible is the only Proof to contend with(as far as ethics/morals go)

And so far, there is no life out there(besides mars, where they found some water evidence{unsubstantial evidence})
If you have found a new life, please report this to Nasa, they will be very interested in your findings :P

Am i opposed to contraception? That is off topic.. why do you ask?

@ Scuba Steve: You are right, Lots of christians who dont do things right, tend to point and accuse others of their mistakes and errors. I am not that type of person, however, i know that homosexuality is a sin, it is as equal to any of the other sins, i am not choosing one sin over the other at all.
And you are right, God Loves Gays as much as you or me, after all, we are all sinners in one way or another.
And once again, you are right, it doesnt help to say "that's wrong, fix it!" It helps to be friends with everyone and providing solutions as well as friendship to others.
You got it all right bro ;)

To act upon what you said is a bit of a longshot, there are thousands of members on this forum, but i am trying my best.
The section that i hang out most, is the photography section, and i know most of the members on there pretty well. :)

Number_6

May 2nd, 2006, 12:19 PM

I looked at the site you gave me, according to my understanding, it is of evolution, and scientific resorts to how the world was created.
I believe this is a good subject to talk about, what is the question though?
If i believe in evolution? No i dont, i believe in adaptation though.

You said "When you study human anatomy, or just looking at how a cell works, it is almost impossible to doubt that there's a creator." I linked to that page because I think (I haven't gone through it myself) that it would show just how easy it is to doubt the existence of God when looking at nature.

Why is Paul infallible? He is a part of the Holy Bible, why is he infallible? The Bible is the only Proof to contend with(as far as ethics/morals go)

If Paul isn't infallible, then I don't see why I should believe what he says if I disagree with it. As such, I can't consider that proof of anything, just opinion. As for the rest of the Bible, how can I consider it proof of anything if I believe it to be a fallable work?

Am i opposed to contraception? That is off topic.. why do you ask?

I don't think it's off topic. You seem to be differentiating love from sex, which is correct as far as I'm concerned, but you don't seem to view sex as a legitimate expression of love. It's like this: If a man and a woman were completely infertile, and nothing could change that, would you be opposed to them having sex (which I believe comes down to desiring to give each other pleasure) as an expression of their love for each other? And if not, would you be opposed to a man and a woman using birth control (for whatever reason) to give each other pleasure (because they love one another) without wanting a baby? And finally, if you aren't opposed to the previous two scenarios, how could you say that two men or two women who love each other (and as a result of that) and desire to give one another pleasure are doing something unnatural?

Carnifex

May 2nd, 2006, 12:28 PM

ok,now i'll try to get back into discussion again,but on earlier points.
In explanation: Hell(in my opinion) isnt a raging fire with people ablaze and fighting. Hell is a place where God is absent!

to me this sounds just like earth. there are very few who truly do everything in agreement with god (which i believe is a good thing),and those few that somewhat do it may have found their personal heaven already.
(+ there's lots of added bonuses that come with hanging out with God)

list me some. i would believe there are some boni that come with god if you're still living on earth (being sheltered from most dangers,being able to face hunger etc. without much trouble because you know there's someone watching over you),but i can't think of anything that helps me in heaven. i mean other than wandering in heaven and asking endless questions to the creator as to why he created this and that,what much is there you can do? unless you say we enter another stage of life (which i imagine must get boring at some point if we live in all eternity).
One final sentance: God is a person, he's not an autocratic executioner with an axe in hand waiting for someone to screw up. That is NOT God.
He's a lot Gentler, he is Justice, love, patience.
and this is the reason why i look at the bible with extremely critical eyes. if we think back to adam and eve,he isn't all that patient or gentle. i can't remember exact examples right now,but there are quite a few instances where similar stuff happens. and on the bible being almost pure fantasy,my favourite story to quote: the one about the two daughters who made their father drunk to have intercourse with him because they couldn't find any men (who happened to be a few miles away in a town). doesn't that go against god's own laws and guidelines? yet this goes unnoticed and serves to spawn some more important biblical persons(i forgot who).
When you study human anatomy, or just looking at how a cell works, it is almost impossible to doubt that there's a creator.
now this is quite the reverse to me. to me all of this is so complex that it's almost impossible to believe on person alone invented it.
i strongly believe we are not the only planet with this kind of evolvment in the WHOLE universe. it's just too vast to be lonesome.
Pretty much the same stuff you'd say to a friend. Just deeper.
now this i like. it's good to know there's always a friend to help you,to understand you. if only he could answer...
ocassionaly i'll pray to a higher being aswell,rather seldom though,and not to the christian god,because he's become corrupted imo by his followers. by attempting to interpret his words,humans have distorted everything to their liking.

claudeEGYPT

May 2nd, 2006, 01:49 PM

OKay, i have a lot to answer to, i'll try and answer the most important ones:

@Number 6: I know Roman Catholics dont believe in Contraception. That's like a more conservative form of christianity.
I however, think it is necessary, or we'd have an overflow of babies!! :upset:

I also believe that a marital(man-woman) sex act is the final most loving act that a couple can express to each other. This is True.

I think you have a right to think that Earth is a product of evolution, i, however dont think this could have been evolution.
If it were evolution, then we would have seen a new version of a human being, after all, its been a few millenia, and still not even a sign of change!

Paul, is acceptable to me as Bill Nye. And Bill Nye is never wrong :)

@Carnifex:
Most people are not in agreement with God,
Does God get a giant thunderbolt and throw hailstones from above? No.
But you are right, in the old Testament, God was more prone to judgement, and quick action.

The gold rule back then, and now, is as follows:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23)

Basically, that means, you sin = you die(sent straight to hell)
However, when Jesus Christ(The Messiah) came unto earth, he changed things, he swapped places with all the sinners on earth.. where we all deserve to die, he took our place, and died.
The best part is, he rose again, defeated death, and defeated sin.

I know this also sounds mythical and somewhat far-fetched.. but so are UFO's.. and Bigfoot.. but i am pretty sure If you ask around.. i'll bet one in every 4 believe they exist!

I think Believing That Christ rose from the dead is a lot easier to swallow than UFO's or Bigfoot. (You may object to this :P)

Back to topic, through Christ's death, We are technically all saved! So God doesnt need to bring out his Thunderbolts.
All we need to do.. is say.. yes. Jesus is the way, I'm In, i surrender. (A summary of christianity)

The rules, the no-no's and bad things in Christianity are not as important, you can practically toss the ten commandments away, and know that you are saved.(Not that God enjoys that.. but thought id mention that)

Yes: There are bonuses to being with God. Besides having a friend (who is stronger than your enemies, smarter than your parents, has enough wealth to turn you into a solid Gold bar) he is compassionate and he's there when you are lonely. He heals!
If you dont believe me, you should come to Egypt, and watch people with life long cases of paralysis, and such being healed.
At first, you think... NO WAY! They are all conning me.. What on earth is happening? Okay, i cant believe this.
But then you see another miracle happening.. and then you either get totally confused, or you shudder in excitement. The Doctors that see this stuff just do this: :jawdrop:

I'm sorry you see Christianity so criticly, sadly there are bad people wherever you go. I hope you will find positive Christians who live the real life, and talk the real talk.

Just as you said. "Humans have distorted everything to their liking"

Carnifex

May 2nd, 2006, 02:14 PM

but you still haven't given me examples of boni of being with god in heaven. all you've given me applies to earth.:)

well,and if jesus has absorbed all our sins and we're free to do as we like without punishment,why do you still believe there is "hell" (a place without god)?

you know,i even attempt to believe that christ existed. his was the life of a REAL christian. helping your fellow beings and being open minded. but i don't believe he resurrected,just his spirit rose to heaven. it may have destroyed his body though to fool us humans abit.

brokk

May 2nd, 2006, 02:38 PM

i sorta figured out how God Works

My friend, as a christian, this is the most heretical thing you could ever say.

asoir

May 2nd, 2006, 02:41 PM

With the overpopulation nowadays, homosexuals are doing us good by slowing down reproduction.

Hmm. That was dumb.

Scubasteve

May 2nd, 2006, 02:59 PM

By the way, I wasn't trying to judge you Egypt. Just trying to save you some headache. I've already been down the forum war path, and its fruitless. Glad your a Christian though. PEACE....

Aether

May 2nd, 2006, 03:09 PM

Aly Fell

May 2nd, 2006, 03:19 PM

It is clear you dont read your bible. Please Go To Leviticus 20:13

V13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Thanks for those words of wisdom claudeEGYPT! Are you going to do all that killing then? Here's some more inspired language from Leviticus to enjoy... Hell, those old Testament Prophets really had us rolling in the aisles hey? Check your not wearing mixed fibres chaps... you're going to hell! Shell fish on your pizza? Bum! Damned! And there's plenty more where that came from...! :)

This is my favourite all you artists out there... looks like we've had it!

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven... earth... [or] water.."
- Edit: Deuteronomy 5:8, not Leviticus 26:1

"These are what you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers -- that you may eat. But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living things which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:9 - King James)

"All flying insects that creep on all fours shall be an abomination to you. Yet these you may eat of every flying insect that creeps on all fours: those which have jointed legs above their feet with which to leap from the earth." (Leviticus 11:20 - King James)

"...when a woman lies with a man, and there is an emission of semen, they shall bathe in water and be unclean until evening." (Leviticus 17:18 - King James)

"If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood, she shall be set apart seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean...." (Leviticus 17:19 - King James)

"If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean for seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. She shall continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three days." (Leviticus 12:1-3 - King James)

"...You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you." (Leviticus 19:19 - King James)

"When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest." (Leviticus 19:9 - King James)

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." (Leviticus 20:9 - King James)

brokk

May 2nd, 2006, 04:03 PM

"(...) Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you." (Leviticus 19:19 - King James)

Thats harsh, but oh well. Hooray for polyester, nylon, and PVC! : )

claudeEGYPT

May 2nd, 2006, 04:34 PM

I think you are taking these verses out of context.
I will look into them, and have an answer for you tomorrow, after all, i dont know all the answers! :)
But i'll research, the Bible hasnt proven me wrong ever, and i have been reading it for 15 years! Still havent gotten bored of it!

My friend, as a christian, this is the most heretical thing you could ever say.
I am sorry, can i rephrase? I am understanding more about how God Works, i am not anywhere close to fully understanding how God is, but i'm getting there.

@Aether: The question is.. what basis are we talking about? Ethics or Biology? Well, if it's Biology, then just look at the diseases that are spreading by sexual transmition.
If it's Ethics, then the bible(and other religious books) are the only source of validity.(unless you have something else in mind)

well,and if jesus has absorbed all our sins and we're free to do as we like without punishment,why do you still believe there is "hell" (a place without god)?

I believe the fact that we are all saved, doesnt mean we actually choose God. As the saying goes: Actions speak louder than words.
You gotta live the life that chooses God, not just talk about it.
Again, God has given us the choice, we are all saved, but we need to Choose him to be with him in Heaven.
If we dont choose him, then God will humbly step aside, and let those who dont want him, to reside in Hell(The place where God is absent)

I'll get back to those Leveticus verses later tomorrow.. phew! It's been a long day. But i am happy some references have come up.. Makes me work! I want the answers now.. am hungry for em!

Kian

May 2nd, 2006, 05:07 PM

whatever happened to love thy neighbour?

Taj

May 2nd, 2006, 06:25 PM

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/tajn/emot-words.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/tajn/emot-laugh.gif

I suggest some new books Claude, 15 years on the bible is way to long. Namely, The Outsider, Lord Of The Flies, some literary criticism, and for good measure take a Literature studies class in your area.

Redder

May 2nd, 2006, 08:06 PM

[X] brokeback mountain
[X] reproduction
[X] religion
[X] homosexuality
[X] personal beliefs
[ ] conversation with no end in sight

Flake

May 2nd, 2006, 08:46 PM

http://www.youtube.com/v/1G470rfJQCI

Gotta love how every random fruitbat sees themselves as capable of understanding God's will.

Not strictly relevant to this thread, but borderline I think..

wtf?

Funny thing religion...

one2hit

May 2nd, 2006, 09:03 PM

Uh. ClaudEgypt and to others. Don't go around trying to argue with people using religion. Religious sects are not universal to one another so your basis of argument has no proving power (or no table turning aspects) in debate. If you want to argue that "gay is wrong", then I think your best bet is the reproductive thing....but yeah that's probably not going to last very long either. Man has seed, woman has egg = reproduction! I don't think it matters what fits where...hehe.

Number_6

May 2nd, 2006, 09:11 PM

@Number 6: I know Roman Catholics dont believe in Contraception. That's like a more conservative form of christianity.

Actually, they can be quite liberal in some respects (check out all the pagan stuff they incorporated to convert more people).

I however, think it [contraception] is necessary, or we'd have an overflow of babies!! :upset:
I also believe that a marital(man-woman) sex act is the final most loving act that a couple can express to each other. This is True.

So why can't that be true for two men or two women? Even animals can be gay (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html), and you can't really call anything they do unnatural.

If it were evolution, then we would have seen a new version of a human being, after all, its been a few millenia, and still not even a sign of change!

I'm pretty sure it takes far, far, FAR longer than that.

Taj

May 2nd, 2006, 09:50 PM

People stop argueing! EARTH WAS CREATED IN 7 DAYS!!!

Now more on topic. I had a chance to watch Brokeback but I just didn't have the time. Looking through the first page, looks like I didnt miss much.

jcaffoe

May 2nd, 2006, 09:53 PM

Two more things: Being Gay is a Choice, i repeat.. A CHOICE!

I laughed aloud at this.

Picture this with me. A teenage kid, terrible acne, pushed around at school, can't get a girlfriend, has very few friends, sitting in his room thinking to himself, "you know...the idea of having sex with another man is physically repulsive to me...but why don't I invite more reckless discrimination into my life? Why don't I give the bullies another reason to push me down in the hallways?"

Why would ANYONE in their right mind choose a lifestyle that is so discriminated against in this country that their own PARENTS would disown them for it? Why would anyone ever choose a lifestyle of ridicule? That's like choosing to piss yourself in class.

I find myself more and more intrigued by this film, I think I'm going to make an effort to see it.

N D Hill

May 3rd, 2006, 05:48 AM

I don't know what's worse. The level of judgmental idiocy here or the fact that people are actually wasting the time to indulge kentucky-fried fundamentalists. You know, I actually hate calling you fundamentalists because you always seem to be fundamental over the wrong things. Christ says more against overbearing, empty and strict religiosity than homosexuality... Which he actually seems to forget to mention completely. Do you know why you fail? Homosexuals are trash to you. They know the church hates them and their dead right. The only thing the church is consistently good at is getting offended. So much for forgiveness, love, and charity because you clearly have better things to do. Please, if you're going to continue to piss all over the cross, stop dragging CHRISTians down by association. There are too little left and they're sick of performing damage control. Look on the bright side though. The more people argue against you, the more your persecution complex is fueled and the more you can complain and be offended. Remember, if you ever feel down, just look at that bracelet of yours "WWRWZTJWD (what would rich, white, zealots think Jesus would do?")

claudeEGYPT

May 3rd, 2006, 08:09 AM

OKay, Everyone seems to hate the Bible, I guess that's okay, the bible isnt exactly easy to follow. But it's the truth.
But everyone who thinks it is unworthwhile.. or not of the "literal" books can go knock his head against the wall.
The Bible is older than me, you or any of your so called "literal Books" It has survived fire, water(yes this is true!) and has survived critisizm.. Do you ever wonder why it is so famous? Is it that everyone is so stupid and reading it ignorantly without thinking? Are you trying to say everyone is an idiot?
Do you wonder why it is the most read book in the world? Why it has sold than more than the Da Vinci Code, Harry Potter, or any of the High selling books?

Now back to topic. I found the answer to the Leviticus books for those who are interested: If you are not interested, skip to next paragraph:
The Old Testament laws are categorized in three groups: the civil, the priestly, and the moral. The civil laws must be understood in the context of a theocracy. Though the Jewish nation in the Old Testament was often headed by a king, it was a theocratic system with the Scriptures as a guide to the nation. Those laws that fall under this category are not applicable today because we are not under a theocracy.
The priestly laws dealing with the Levitical and Aaronic priesthoods, were representative of the future and true High Priest Jesus who offered Himself as a sacrifice on the cross. Since Jesus fulfilled the priestly laws, they are no longer necessary to be followed and are not now applicable.
The moral laws, on the other hand, are not abolished. Because the moral laws are based upon the character of God. Since God's holy character does not change, the moral laws do not change either. Therefore, the moral laws are still in effect.
In the New Testament we do not see a reestablishment of the civil or priestly laws. But we do see a reestablishment of the moral law. This is why we see New Testament condemnation of homosexuality as a sin but not with the associated death penalty.

"Whatever happened to love thy neighbour?"
I never suggested that you shouldnt.. In fact i Encourage you, and i am determined more to apply this in my own life more and more.
I do not think Gays are trash. Whatever your assumptions are, dont assume until you know me. I am no biggot, i am not above any of you. In fact, i am just like you. The only difference is that i am aware of the laws, and do my best to abide by them, i also know where salvation lies.

"Uh. ClaudEgypt and to others. Don't go around trying to argue with people using religion. Religious sects are not universal to one another so your basis of argument has no proving power (or no table turning aspects) in debate."
Sorry to contradict you, but this isnt a "Sect" this is universal christianity at its core. Living, in Kent, WA you should be aware that you are living under its rule. Yes, America is a Christian country, get over it!

"Even animals can be gay, and you can't really call anything they do unnatural"
Animals eat each other alive, that's natural.. does that mean that we should copy them or consider that natural? Should i eat you?

People stop argueing! EARTH WAS CREATED IN 7 DAYS!!!
What makes you say that? I thought the Bible was no proof to you?!!
And why not argue. This is a very valid argument. If no one wants to argue, then let me know. And I'll Shut up, but it seems that this is a subject that most people want to see a responce to.

Finally@Easy Tiger: I think most people dont think too much about going to have sex with a girl. If she's hot and tempting, they dont think too much about consequences.
Homosexuality is seductive too, like any sin. When people fall for this particular sin, they are labeled: "Gay" and people dont accept them back to where they started off. This is a societical problem. And after being labeled "Gay" you cant go back easily.

Exo, i am sorry you feel this way about Christians, i wont deny that there are people who think they are above the system, and get all proud and holy on other people. I am not like that, i dont want to be like that.
All i am doing is clarifying, i am not judging, i am stating facts.
And why do you refer to christians as rich white zealots? Are you a racist?
It seems you dont know much about the Christian world, Christianity has extended to all races, it is definately not defined by white rich people.

Again, i hope this was beneficial.

timpaatkins

May 3rd, 2006, 08:17 AM

I would like to know what the bible has to do with any of this. Why is it even brought up?

claudeEGYPT

May 3rd, 2006, 08:33 AM

Once again, i repeat:
Morality and Ethics are only found in religion, not Literature, Literature is built off of religion.
Homosexuality is two things: Ethics and Biology.
The bible has to do with the Ethical part of this topic, it is the only available reference besides the Jewish Torah(which also disagrees with homosexuality), The Qura'n(Yet again, disagrees and bannes homosexuality, in fact, homosexuals are executed) and the asian books (Hinduism:not encouraged, Buddhism:is not allowed)

So an overall look.. hmmm.. Not allowed, by all ethical references.. co-incidence?

Biology: Well, should i really get into that? And tell you the risks of homosexuality?

Carnifex

May 3rd, 2006, 08:36 AM

it may not be defined by them,but it's abused to the most by them,whcih makes us non-christians have such a bad view on the bible.

taj was being sarcastic.:) don't take everything so serious.
and don't try to argue with everyone on whatever short comment they made.
talk about the points that are really important to you.

edit: the risks of homosexuality are exactly the same as those of heterosexuality.
and ethics i believe aren't just based on religion. they may have started with it,but i believe many ethics today aren't based on it.

Taj

May 3rd, 2006, 08:50 AM

Well Claude. I read in a book that was written along time ago...and survived some water that, infact, everyone in america was Asian.

Same arguement your useing.

claudeEGYPT

May 3rd, 2006, 09:02 AM

Well Claude. I read in a book that was written along time ago...and survived some water that, infact, everyone in america was Asian.
Same arguement your useing.

Say what?

and don't try to argue with everyone on whatever short comment they made.
talk about the points that are really important to you.
Sorry, point taken!

ethics i believe aren't just based on religion. they may have started with it,but i believe many ethics today aren't based on it.
Can you give me an example?

the risks of homosexuality are exactly the same as those of
heterosexuality.

A little info:
This is taken from Dr. JOHN R. DIGGS, JR. M.D. Research findings:

Levels of Promiscuity:

Prior to the AIDS epidemic, a 1978 study found that 75 percent of white, gay males claimed to have had more than 100 lifetime male sex partners: 15 percent claimed 100-249 sex partners; 17 percent claimed 250-499; 15 percent claimed 500- 999; and 28 percent claimed more than 1,000 lifetime male sex partners. Levels of promiscuity subsequently declined, but some observers are concerned that promiscuity is again approaching the levels of the 1970s. The medical consequence of this promiscuity is that gays have a greatly increased likelihood of contracting HIV/AIDS, syphilis and other STDs.

Similar extremes of promiscuity have not been documented among lesbians. However, an Australian study found that 93 percent of lesbians reported having had sex with men, and lesbians were 4.5 times more likely than heterosexual women to have had more than 50 lifetime male sex partners. Any degree of sexual promiscuity carries the risk of contracting STDs.

That was back in 1978, now all these statistics have probably multiplied by far.

There is more info concerning Physical Health, Mental Health, Life span, monogamy here:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html

timpaatkins

May 3rd, 2006, 09:04 AM

Are you saying that no ethics existed until religion came along?

And regarding your little medical ref (from 1978), you know that heterosexuals practise anal sex too right? They are subject to the same risks.

Aly Fell

May 3rd, 2006, 09:23 AM

Morality and Ethics are only found in religion, not Literature, Literature is built off of religion.
Rubbish! Ethics are sociological not religious. Literature, by its very nature is independent of religion.

All i am doing is clarifying, i am not judging, i am stating facts.

You are not stating facts, if you were stating facts you would be denying your faith. Science deals in facts, logic deals in facts. Faith deals in belief. You talk nonsense, and diminish the beautiful sections of the Bible by quoting the most bigoted and obscene. And you ARE judging. You've said homosexuality is wrong... like duh! Have you no empathy? Can you not see that people may find your burblings against 'it' extreme and intimidating? I wrote you an eloquent, thoughtful response, but I'll take a leaf out of Exo's book. I'm off to do some drawing.... after I've stoned my best mate, who happens to be gay, and avoided my girlfriend because she's having her period. Maybe I should wash? Shit, I had crab sandwiches last night!

Edit: And don't bring up AIDS! Just THINK about what's happening in Africa!

DSillustration

May 3rd, 2006, 09:45 AM

ug...
messy conversation.
come on people, politics and religion, you know better.

let me skip ahead to whats going to happen here:
friendly debate turns to heated debate (happening now)
heated debate turns to criticism.
criticism turns to insult.
we all feel bad.

i've never seen a religious person yet denounce their belief due to scientific debate.
so why bother?

ultimately, the converstation will end:
non-religious person: "fine, you have your way of looking at things, i have mine!"
religious person: "i will pray for you." (the ultimate annoying last word)

claudeEGYPT

May 3rd, 2006, 09:49 AM

http://www.frc.org/img/item/IS04C02_4.gif
sources:Laumann, The Social Organization of Sexuality, 216; McWhirter and Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (1984): 252-253; Wiederman, "Extramarital Sex," 170.

Talk about love!

There has always been religion, no matter where, or when.
It seems that man has always come back to God.. sometimes in different forms.. but there has always been a God, a religion, ethics. (in almost every culture, take Ancient Egypt as an example, or Greece)

The risks are the same with heterosexuals, if they mess around too much. In Christianity, the guideline is: One Woman, one marriage(unless she dies.. in that case, you can re-marry or divorce (of special cases.. not the casual divorce))
But if it is one partner, than there are NO risks! (unless he/she has been fooling around)

Thunder Doom

May 3rd, 2006, 09:55 AM

God is a person

Uh oh, go directly to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

second commandment of the decalogue 8)

Carnifex

May 3rd, 2006, 09:57 AM

Can you give me an example?

f.ex. walking around nude in public. i can't remember something being said in the bible about that. (if i'm not mixing things)

and as poshspice said,look at africa,concerning aids.

edit: i dare believe it IS hard to stay true to each other if you aren't allowed to marry.

claudeEGYPT

May 3rd, 2006, 10:23 AM

You've said homosexuality is wrong... like duh! Have you no empathy?
Clearly You dont know what judging a person means.
If i were to judge an act of stealing as wrong, that doesnt mean i am judging a robber.
The act is wrong, the person.. well, i should get to know him/her better. I am in no position to judge. God is the only judge.

Ethics are sociological not religious.
Tell me, did religions come out of thin air? They were written by people, off course they are sociological, they ARE written by people.
Ethics according to the dictionary: The philosophical study of moral values and rules.
Do people make up rules? Yes.. Do people make rules against their own nature? No! Does the bible have rules against human's sinful nature? Yes.. lots!
Therefore, we can conclude that the rules are Godly, not from man.. certainly written down by man. But not of his own device.

Uh oh, go directly to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Well, that's nice, not only is that ethical, but you seem to fail to know anything about God. God IS a person. Please be polite, i have not insulted anyone. If i have offended someone personally, then i appologize.

Walking around nude in public. i can't remember something being said in the bible about that. (if i'm not mixing things)

Well, that's a good example, there's nothing precisely about walking nude in public that i know of. But there's other verses that can answer your question:

"Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever
is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute,
if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things." (Philippians 4:8)

also

"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial."(Corinthians 6:12)

one more:

" If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother or sister for whom Christ died." (This means that if by doing something trivial or simple, you are hurting your brother/sister, then act in love, stop what you are doing out of love for them){i think this applies, where walking nude may be disturbing and degrading for some people}

You are not stating facts, if you were stating facts you would be denying your faith. Science deals in facts, logic deals in facts. Faith deals in belief.
You know, the whole bible is not only based on beliefs and faith. There is a lot of science to it, and there are facts. Do not murder is a fact.
The walls of Jericho fell down.. Fact.
Jesus existed.. Fact
You cant possibly tell me that everything is based on pure beliefs.

i dare believe it IS hard to stay true to each other if you aren't allowed to marry.
I believe it makes things harder yes, but there are hundreds of couples that live together and are not married, and they stay together for years, being unmarried doesnt stop things from happening.

You talk nonsense, and diminish the beautiful sections of the Bible by quoting the most bigoted and obscene.
There is nothing in the bible that is Obscene, unless it is done by sinners.
God's commandments have never been obscene.
If you choose to think they are, then that's your opinion.

Give me more.. I am happy to answer, but please be polite, as i have.

N D Hill

May 3rd, 2006, 10:26 AM

Exo, i am sorry you feel this way about Christians, i wont deny that there are people who think they are above the system, and get all proud and holy on other people. I am not like that, i dont want to be like that.
All i am doing is clarifying, i am not judging, i am stating facts.
And why do you refer to christians as rich white zealots? Are you a racist?
It seems you dont know much about the Christian world, Christianity has extended to all races, it is definately not defined by white rich people.

Again, i hope this was beneficial.

Railing on against others you care to know nothing about has nothing to do with Christ. Just like the statement of a fact is nothing like the statement of a 6,000 year old prejudice. Poverty, genocide, injustice and hate run rampant and the American Church is more worried about stem-cells, gays and teletubbies. Christians don't bother me in the least. If we could all live by the example Christ set for us by loving our neighbor and lay our lives down for our fellow brothers and sisters, forgetting vendettas and hate, the world be be great. Instead we have a church that considers itself infallible and takes it upon itself to isolate it's congregation from that big, scary, evil world outside,wagging its fat finger while they just wait it out till end times. American Christianity is a shell of what it's supposed to be. It’ll continue to be such until it wakes up and starts caring more about un-fed mouths then further ostracizing those who’ve no doubt already been ostracized. A church that does nothing to meet the needs of others and only maintains it’s own security has nothing left to do but rot from the inside out. The meek will never inherit the Earth.

Number_6

May 3rd, 2006, 10:34 AM

Sorry to contradict you, but this isnt a "Sect" this is universal christianity at its core. Living, in Kent, WA you should be aware that you are living under its rule. Yes, America is a Christian country, get over it!

Whaaa? That's completely irrelevent. You didn't even answer his question. If he dosen't believe in Christianity, why should anything you say from the bible be considered evidence?

Animals eat each other alive, that's natural.. does that mean that we should copy them or consider that natural? Should i eat you?

No. All I meant with that link is that it would be a fallacy to consider homosexuality unnatural. Do you believe animals can sin? If they have no free will and act only according to their nature, how can anything they do be wrong? Some animal activities may be wrong for us, but if it does no harm, why should it be considered sinful in us if they do it?

Once again, i repeat:
Morality and Ethics are only found in religion, not Literature, Literature is built off of religion.
Homosexuality is two things: Ethics and Biology.
The bible has to do with the Ethical part of this topic, it is the only available reference besides the Jewish Torah(which also disagrees with homosexuality), The Qura'n(Yet again, disagrees and bannes homosexuality, in fact, homosexuals are executed) and the asian books (Hinduism:not encouraged, Buddhism:is not allowed)

There are several versions of Buddhism. This (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_budd.htm) site has more information on their perspective. The statement on that page that is most against homosexuality is as follows:

The Dalai Lama is the leader of the Tibetan people and is revered by millions of Buddhists worldwide. At a press conference in 1997-JUN, he commented: "From a Buddhist point of view [lesbian and gay sex]...is generally considered sexual misconduct". This belief is not based on the partners being of the same gender. In his book "Beyond Dogma," he has written that "homosexuality, whether it is between men or between women, is not improper in itself. What is improper is the use of organs already defined as inappropriate for sexual contact." Buddhism prohibits oral, manual and anal sex for everyone - both homosexuals and heterosexuals. However, these restrictions refer only to members of the Buddhist faith.

What's notable about this is that masturbation, anal and oral sex are prohibited for EVERYONE. Though I don't know for sure, I suspect the reasoning for this has more to do with enforcing detachment from earthly desires than anything else. I suspect he only endorses sex for the purpose of reproduction and would be agains birth control as well. As for Hinduism, there's a lot of debate within the religion about it. There is not a clear cut standpoint on it according to this (http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/hinduism.htm). And traditional Native American religions generally accepted homosexuals as relgious leaders.

sources:Laumann, The Social Organization of Sexuality, 216; McWhirter and Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (1984): 252-253; Wiederman, "Extramarital Sex," 170.

Talk about love!

So because the majority of homosexual relations surveryed are polygamous and risky, the act is inherently wrong? Isn't the high number of polygamous relationships indicative of a problem within the gay community? Because the majority does some specific thing a wrong manner, the minority shouldn't do it in a right manner?

The risks are the same with heterosexuals, if they mess around too much. In Christianity, the guideline is: One Woman, one marriage(unless she dies.. in that case, you can re-marry or divorce (of special cases.. not the casual divorce))
But if it is one partner, than there are NO risks! (unless he/she has been fooling around)

Exactly. So if two men or two women are in a faithful, monogamous relationship, what's wrong with that?

claudeEGYPT

May 3rd, 2006, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by claudeEGYPT
Sorry to contradict you, but this isnt a "Sect" this is universal christianity at its core. Living, in Kent, WA you should be aware that you are living under its rule. Yes, America is a Christian country, get over it!
I believe i answered his comment, it was about the fact that i am in some sect or something.
If he doesnt believe in Christianity, than he doesnt need to look at this thread again, christianity is the only reason why i am making a big deal out of this!
I dont benefit at all if Gays sleep together or not.. why should i care? The only reason i care, is because i have a belief system, one of those beliefs is that God exists, he's got commandments, one of them is being broken in this movie.
All i am doing is giving my point of view, and answering some of your comments/questions.

Animals, hmm, well let's see, if they are okay, and everything they do is right, then maybe i should stop using a fork and knife, maybe stop talking, and start pooping all over the floor.
There are limits to how much of animal's characters we can imitate, one of them is homosexual behaviour.

I dont know what your point on Buddhism is trying to achieve, it is pretty much discouraging homosexuality, maybe not forbidding it.. But not exactly in agreement either.

Your reference of native indians is a credible source, however it is rarely if not utterly out of use currently. (very few native indians out there.. are you a native indian?)

The statistic that i gave shows just how much people love each other. If they love each other so bad, why dont they stay together?
Why is the average of 60 partners apparent with all gays?

Exactly. So if two men or two women are in a faithful, monogamous relationship, what's wrong with that?
Two things, first: 2.7 Percent of gays have actually had only one partner in a lifetime.
second, it's a sin .. once again! to have homosexual relations.

Sorry to disappoint you. :(

claudeEGYPT

May 3rd, 2006, 11:03 AM

Exo, i think you are right about a lot of things that you mentioned.
However, Christianity doesnt exist in America alone.
In fact, the statistics say that the majority of christians now live in the the 3rd world!
You should read about the positive stuff going on in the 3rd world(over here!)

There's a lot of good happening here. If you want some news to feed off, i can give you some resources.
You always find a silverlining if you look hard enough.

Thunder Doom

May 3rd, 2006, 11:03 AM

Well, that's nice, not only is that ethical, but you seem to fail to know anything about God. God IS a person. Please be polite, i have not insulted anyone. If i have offended someone personally, then i appologize.

The statement I made was a reference to Monopoly, a game American people play when boredom has completely consumed their psyche, or when they're high (or both).

But that wasn't the point, the point is that in ol' timey judaism (when most of these laws were supposedly written), it's almost impossible NOT to piss off YHWH. People can't just pick and choose whichever law they please, it's all or nothing.

Fun fact : Giving gods human qualities back in the day would get you a nice healthy dose of bubonic plauge (a non-too-distant relative of AIDS)

So in short, waving around a really old book doesn't give anyone moral authority to tell people what they can or can't do with their penii, because 10 times out of 10, those that do are pissing off YHWH in their own special way too.

Aly Fell

May 3rd, 2006, 11:07 AM

The first noble truth of Buddhism is 'all existence is sorrow'. This thread is heading that way. claudeEGYPT, you are truly remarkable in your ability to patronise. Clearly I have no concept of what judging means, and you do so well. DS is right, this is going no-where... ta ta!

Number_6

May 3rd, 2006, 11:14 AM

Animals, hmm, well let's see, if they are okay, and everything they do is right, then maybe i should stop using a fork and knife, maybe stop talking, and start pooping all over the floor.

That would be unsanitary, and could result in harm to yourself or others. Therefore, it shouldn't be imitated. My point still stands.

I dont know what your point on Buddhism is trying to achieve, it is pretty much discouraging homosexuality, maybe not forbidding it.. But not exactly in agreement either.

Both Theravada and Zen Buddhism are not against it. Tibetan is, though I suspect that they'd feel the same way about non-reproductive sex (ie, with contraception), which in my mind is exactly the same as homosexual activity.

Your reference of native indians is a credible source, however it is rarely if not utterly out of use currently. (very few native indians out there.. are you a native indian?)

No. And if the perspectives of different religions on this are all equal (which seems to be what you're expressing with this, though I doubt you believe it), then why should it matter if it's not currently in use?

The statistic that i gave shows just how much people love each other. If they love each other so bad, why dont they stay together?
Why is the average of 60 partners apparent with all gays?
Two things, first: 2.7 Percent of gays have actually had only one partner in a lifetime.
second, it's a sin .. once again! to have homosexual relations.

Your statistic was from over 20 years ago, and not exactly from an unbiased source. You can find plenty of surveys with varying results out there, I'm sure.

Fine. The Bible says it's a sin. What are we arguing about then? Are you telling us what you believe, or trying to convince us of the truth of what you believe? If it's the first, WE GET IT already. If it's the second, I see no way for you to convince us without using the Bible that it is wrong, so you need to change tactics.

claudeEGYPT

May 3rd, 2006, 11:20 AM

Haha thunderdoom!(at your monopoly comment)(not sarcastic here!)
You are right, back in the day of the old testament, God was Swift, he acted in a Judicial manner immediately with most people.
Usually in punishment.
But refer to comment #86
It has an explanation of why God doesnt Kick us the second we make a mistake.
I dont have any authority of any sort, as i said, merely giving out knowledge, if you choose to believe, great! All the better for you.
If you choose to dismiss, well that's your opinion,you are entitled to dismiss my thoughts.

The first noble truth of Buddhism is 'all existence is sorrow'. This thread is heading that way. claudeEGYPT, you are truly remarkable in your ability to patronise. Clearly I have no concept of what judging means, and you do so well. DS is right, this is going no-where... ta ta!
I am sorry i didnt live up to your expectations, i dont know what your buddhism reference has to do with what i am talking about. But okay.
Again, i am not judging Gays, or lesbians, i am judging the act.
There's nothing wrong with that.

Edit: Oops.. didnt see your post number 6: i will reply to your post later, i have tests.. so.. woppa.. got to go!
Take care.

sparth

May 3rd, 2006, 12:04 PM

claude, you're on an art site. would you expect artists to follow religion the way you do? good thing most don't. artists needs to have their brain free of any alienating structure.
and anyone refering to sections of the bible in order to support or defend any argument is just biaised from the start. i respect religion, but bigotry just scares me. i'd prefer trying to learn entires pages from k dick's novels ...

one last thing. consciousness is a human thing. and religion is one of the attributes that goes with it, as a despair to know the truth and live better by inventing fiction.
let the world just be. trying to put it into a book is just an antropomorphic mistake. and the fact that the bible is old doesn't change a thing. i am just still amazed by the idea that today in the 21th century, people are so more interested by their religious attitude like you are, instead of thinking about how we could reach the stars faster, and invent the world of tomorrow.

remember ... the world doesn't need you to give it a meaning.

sparth

Sundance

May 3rd, 2006, 12:34 PM

Claude, I strongly suggest you cease and desist; perhaps you should even delete this thread. There is no benefit to prolonging this discussion; DS spoke the truth about the infinite threads that have preceded this one which eventually went down this path.

As a fellow Christian, I would also beg of you to stop because this does nothing to further the cause of Christianity. The polarization of issues does nothing but divide. All involved are forced to pick sides and are naturally set against each other, something a glorious community like this does not need. Telling people they are wrong and throwing random verses at them only strengthens them in their positions.

If Jesus were here today, I feel he would be more upset with the self-proclaimed "Christians" than he would with Homosexuals, murderers, rapists, and the Spice Girls (jk Posh - you know I love you). Jesus asked...no told us to love everyone, not just the ones that agree with us. He spent most of his time with people that were considered sinners...and he loved them. It was through his love that they were converted, not because he debated with them about how wrong there actions and beliefs were.

Brokeback Mountain is a movie. If you wanted to see it...go see it. If you wished it had never been made...don't go see it. It is as simple as that. If other people choose via their own free will to partake, that is their right by God, but not our right to judge.

Further discussion is futile...now to make sure I "unsubscribe" to this thread!

...and where did I put my paints...

brokk

May 3rd, 2006, 12:48 PM

Since all this got completly off topic, I'd thought I'd throw in this:

Sapp Time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLGWSiJ1bzU&search=sapp%20time)

:teeth:

one2hit

May 3rd, 2006, 05:14 PM

Sorry to contradict you, but this isnt a "Sect" this is universal christianity at its core. Living, in Kent, WA you should be aware that you are living under its rule. Yes, America is a Christian country, get over it!

There have been hundreds of sects of Christianity alone. There are thousands of religions, and millions of beliefs. Wether you are in a sect or are non-demoninational doesn't matter. My point is that it is senseless and unethical to debate using religion as a base of fact. Your faith and your beliefs are not (necessarily) somebody else's beliefs (and visa-versa). What is true to you is not true to another. The only people who are going agree with you are those who believe the same as you do. If you want to make an argument, make it with non religious-infused facts that are truthful to all. I'm not knocking your religion or any religion, I'm just trying to help you follow the rules of debate so that you don't like like an assclown in here (which currently you do).

I am aware that the dominant religion in America is still Christian. Those living under it's "rule" are those that choose to follow it. Not all. It's pretty sweet that you just glanced at my location and tried to use that as leverage to get me to realize a point (which by the way will never work in debate). I live in San Diego for your info, but nice try.

guggemmaneuver

May 3rd, 2006, 05:32 PM

god someone close this thread before i do myself in the butt with a shotgun

el coro

May 3rd, 2006, 05:42 PM

dude this thread is awesome! i havent seen the movie yet, but i really do want to. im from the great southwest, and ill watch anything with cowboys in it. and after reading all these responses, im really curious what could get people so worked up. i mean, its like people are suprised that there are gay cowboys or sumthin. -c36

GriNGo

May 3rd, 2006, 05:55 PM

claudeEgypt your crazy! congrats! :)

BuckWeisel

May 3rd, 2006, 06:56 PM

hike up your pants and save the watches, cause the stuff is getting deep in here.

This subject is a sensitive one and of course there are many ways to look at this, like the religious aspect and the biological aspect. So lets start with those.

ITS AGAINST MY GAWD. ADAM AND EVE NOT ADAM AND STEVE. Yeah well it was Cain and Able not Cain and Sable. "God would let gay happen if he really didnt want it here." Right im sure God wants people to kill people and wants children to starve and for us to harm the Earth. God isnt sitting there looking at billions of tvs trying to stop events or prevent them. What we do to ourselves and others is up to us and will happen no matter what god wants. Sure, we will get punished after death or whatever, but thats then and now. If God dosnt want gays, hes not gonna strike each one with lightnings. He gave you his rules, he lets you decide to follow them.

Now on the flipside I really dont think God cares. Bible says youre not supposed to sleep with a man, it dosnt say you cant love one. It just so happens humans associate love with sex, and when humans are in love they have sex. Love is somthing else my friends. Also God is the father, and I know no matter what I do my dads gonna love me and be there for me. Gods not gonna turn his back on his kids no matter how bad they are or what they do. He may be mad, but he'll get over it.

I think that covers both sides of the religious part. for the record, im not gay and im not against gay relationships or against them, its a choice.

THE TRIANGLE BLOCK DOSNT FIT IN THE SQUARE HOLE Well it does. There also isnt supposed to be anything living at the bottom of the sea by those super hot fissures, but there is. If youd please note that doctors stick their finger up there to check your prostate, is that not right? The prostate is anatomically placed so that when a person is sodomized, it is stimulated. The prostate is resposible for that euphoric feeling when you ejaculate. So much in the same way a womans anatomy is stimulated during intercorse, a mans can be too. Now im not saying shove somthing up your hole, cause im sure thatd be very painful, but since we're on the subject of being made for anal sex, id figure id throw that out there. So there its anatomically or biologically possible for a men to have intercorse much like a man and a woman. Im not a doctor so I dont know the specific algoritms for male stimulation or anotomy down there, so if im wrong tell me.

That takes care of the big issues ive seen thrown around on here. Now for another little take on this subject. Being Gay=choice. I dont nessicarily agree with the claims that its a chemical imbalance(pharmasutical companies will say anything for some $$). I know society frowns upon guys who wear dresses, so If i wore a bright pink dress, i should be prepared for critism. Much like how the impressionists problay were prepared for a riot when they displayed their works for the first time. If you know people dont like it, dont be suprised or upset when they reject it. You dont have to hide it, but you should be ready for sombody to say somthing. I know you should be able to do what you want and not get hassled for it, but this isnt the way organized society works. People=supid and thats the way its been and the way itll be for a long time. You rock their boat and they get upset.

Sorry about this giant wall of text.

one2hit

May 3rd, 2006, 08:39 PM

well it was Cain and Able not Cain and Sable.

erm.... cain and able were brothers. I don't believe there was ever anything in the Bible (or any other written history) insinuating that they were gay.

Taj

May 3rd, 2006, 10:41 PM

You know, the whole bible is not only based on beliefs and faith. There is a lot of science to it, and there are facts.
The walls of Jericho fell down.. Fact.
Jesus existed.. Fact
You cant possibly tell me that everything is based on pure be
Wrong again. Those are all Believed to be Fact.
fact (f?kt)
n.
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.

claudeEGYPT

May 4th, 2006, 12:46 PM

Hey!

Sorry, i have been busy.
Due to the fact that everyone is dying to close up this thread, and for me to shut up, well.. Your wish has been granted.

I still stick to my guns.
I believe this topic has lots of views. (A summary)

There's the mainstream view: "Gay is okay, it's love, everyone else should mind their own business, its a free world. Gays are born Gay. The Bible is crap. Why should an old book tell us what to do?"

There's the religious views, most of them have this theme: "Gay is a sin. It is unnatural, It is an obscenety against God and against the community"

Finally, there's biological views: these are, as mainstream quotes: "biased and subjective." And as religous people quote: "Possibly biased, but the statistics are too dramatic for bias to be an issue, risks of single-mate, life long heterosexuals is far less risky than homosexuals of diseases/infections"

I will not grab the Bible and shove it down your throat, that is not my job.
I gave you my ideas, its your turn to either accept them or dismiss them.
You are entitled to your own ideas.. they are no one's but yours.

I urge you all to read more about the subject. (Not only the bible)
IF one guy says a stone is round, dont take his word for it, Go look at a picture of the stone, see if it is round for yourself.. experiment, see what works and what doesnt, Trial and error is not a bad thing.
And not from one angle, there's always bias in one angle, get as many angles as possible, see which is more pursasive, logical, make up your own mind. But DO NOT COPY!
The world is full of people who copy each other, its about time radical thoughts come to life, those that stand upon solid, valid bases.

I would like to get rid of some things that i feel shouldnt be said about me, this, no one can judge but me:
I have never considered Gays as trash, and i never will do that, as long as i am christian. It is the Right thing to do, and it is what God asks all of us to do, love each other like we love ourselves.

If i ever said something that carries the meaning of : Gays are trash, go dump them, terrorize them. Than some hacker got in and swiped my replies!!

Race, ethnicity, age, gender, orientation, body weight: we all point and judge, i am human, i do judge once in a while, if not a lot.
I cant help it.
But I do my best not to offend anyone, and to change in heart when i feel dislike to a certain discriminant factor in a human being.
I hate sin of all forms, that i will not change my mind about, but as for the people, well, i really dont hate anyone(except my computer teacher :P )

Would like to finally say that Christ's teachings have always been in love. There isnt a single teaching that is out of hatred to others.
That's why i stick to Christianity, not only do i have a great role model to imitate, but unlike other religions, my Hero(christ) is still alive!

Would like to leave this for you:
This is a reminder of how Christianity is technically allowed to be diminished, (prayer at school is not allowed, nor is it allowed in text books, etc.) but Gay rights are allowed to flourish. This serves to show you, that the fruits of an action define the action.(whether is is good or not.)

http://www.carm.org/issues/homoagenda.htm

I will no longer be posting any more replies in relevance to this topic on this thread. (a big yipee to all those who hate my guts)
If you are interested, and want to see how this road ends(the debate ends) you can send a private message on the conceptart mail thingy and i'll reply asap.