Aaryn the warrior

[poopinmymouth]

http://www.poopinmymouth.com/process/character_process/character_flatsheet.jpg

Here is my finished model that landed me my first job!! I love here in Austin Texas, and I am so glad to finally be in the game industry. Let me know what you think, plus more views and my tutorial on how I accomplished it, can be found here
http://www.poopinmymouth.com/process/character_process/character_process.htm

[ChaosEidolon]

Man! Amazing character....you were able to give it an incredible amount of life just with the way you distribute his weight when hes standing. You can get a real sense of his attitude.
I can def learn something from this. Im currently in school for 3d/game design, so my plan is having low poly be my forte on getting out of here. This is definately inspiration.

Thanks alot for the tut, and ill be keeping my eyes open for the texturing part. :btu:

Edit: Oh crap...and you went to SCAD? Im surprized i havent seen this before. Good to see an ex-scaddie make it in the real world =) cheers

[Wizard of KOZ]

I can't believe more people havn't responded to this post.

Amazing work, I love the porporions you used and the the muscle definition in both the mesh and the textures.
The tuturial on your site is VERY helpful, and I hope you do continue witht the texturing part.... Though totally understandable if you can't with a new job and all. :D

BTW where did you land a job? was it by chance the one Android posted at Retro a while back?

In anycase you deserve it man. :rock:

[scout v]

simply amazing ......

he looks very much alive and with style .

:blue:

[usagi yojimbo]

this is awesome, i saw the wip before on polycount weeks ago but i didnt think it'd turn out like this

kick ass model

[DustinTrimble]

Nice work on your character progress page, you can really see the detail on the maps! Congrats too!

[Sleepi]

That's some really amazing work there, that's all I really have to say, it's inspiring, excellent anatomy.

[painiac]

On a technical side of things, the detail is horrible for that many polygons. You could pull that off in half easy. It's a good start, and yo modeling process is good, but your tutorial was a bit cocky. Your way is'nt perfect by the way. Good job, but i'd like to see you do it in 2500. Theres so many wasted polys you would'nt even notice gone with that nice of a skin.

[poopinmymouth]

I realize that my tutorial was very cocky, but I also think that one can put a certain amount of authority into something when their results show that they can be teaching others. I would give you every item that I own on earth if you could pull that model off in 2500. There is no way in the world. I was going for accurate muscle portrayal, and a good representation of a male body, much in the way of the statue of david. Not like these tube models so many people keep pumping out that show no underlying surface deformations whatsoever. So if thats what your suggesting by taking out polys, then I agree. It could have less polys, and alot less definition, but that is not what I was going for. I realize my skills arent perfect, and that it could be made with fewer, but common, 2000 less? you gotta be joking, or on crack.

oh, and Koz, my new job is at Warthog texas, formerly feverpitchstudios. We will be looking for another junior artist soon, so be watching the highend3d.com job board for the posting.

[davi]

very cool i like it alot!

very good design and modeling

[Muttonhead]

Really impressive model, poop. I have to say, you know your anatomy, and everything you said in your tutorial was right on. I am gearing up to get better at modeling and I will definitely keep your tutorial in my favorites.

Great work.

-S.A.M.

[xnku]

very impressive, as is the rest of the work on your site. i really like your modeling technique, makes a lot of sense.

[painiac]

ok.. I'll do it in 2500. write up a contract for everything you own. It's good man, but in game close together polygons in sucha small space create a dimpled light effect. Your going to see loads of that in the face <hehehe>. As for muscle portrayal. No flat edge yo ever create in polys is going to do it, skin shades soft, use the texture forces luke. I know you can do that in under 2500. I have a female body with more curves under 1800 and my face is just as detailed. The stomach muscles are rarely seen in game modeled. Use a profile technique. in realtime all you'll ever notice heavily is the polygon detail in the edge. Rarely do you look at the stomach from such an angle that you'd see the six pack modeled. The back maybe. And lightsouces are a problem with more polygons. If your texture is detiled like yors with a set lightsouce and your polygons are reflecting multiple faces per light. it will look odd. These are just little things. It's mostly the face. The cheeks are way too overpopulated. I know it's not for a game, i'm just saying I know you can pull it off with 2500. You also said it's rigged for speech. The moouth is the only thing eyes will focus on for that. Just make sure the phenomes are smoothly modeled. in the areas they need to be, the edges of the mouth and such. Your an excellent texture artist, just let you texture flesh out the curves.

Also with correctly places smoothing groups, less polygons = more smoothing. Trust me. I'm just trying to be inspirational. Most game projects cap counts at 3.5k now adays. And he really does'nt have that many accessories to need that count. Just remember the player see's the light casted and the texture, not the triangles. If i have some time later i'll make up somethign for you to show you. I'm not saying it's not good, i was just under the impression it would be for a game. If not it's great cause counts dont matter =)

*Here I put up an ortho view of the base face i'm talking about. With your skin detailed as it is, you can cut yor face counts in half. 1008 polys including the hidden eyes, which take up about 150 of it. Yours looked to be well into 2k. Maybe i'm mistaken. Even so I can reduce my counts quite a bit too, depends on the texture artist.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/painiac/PimpMax.jpg

Just a thought.
It's about the flow of the edges, not the complexity of detail. 3d is still an illusion, no matter how cad/medically detail oriented you can get.

[AfroLaxMan]

poopinmymouth-
welcome to austin. I've been here most of my life, and it has treated me good. congrats on the first job. good luck with it. I also happen to be an ex-scad myself, grad in 96.

I agree with the lowering poly comment, we are building characters at my job at around 3000, and they are retaining a better than good amount of detail, but you'll learn how and where the polys can be cut as you get better. mapping can do a whole lot for your meshes, and you got mapping skills, so no worries there.
got style, too. congrats again on the new job.

-afro

[poopinmymouth]

at the risk of sounding rude, I am going to be blunt. Starting from the comment that stuck the most, and moving through your post.

its about edge flow more than complexity. Its about both, and personally my edge flow on my face is alot better laid out then the edge flow on your face my face with modeled hair AND fully modeled ears is 1028, which is only 20 more than your head without hair or ears. and your the parts that you do have, are not as detailed like you claimed. 8-)
http://poopinmymouth.com/process/character_process/head_close_up.jpg
so your saying, I could have the same face in 514 faces? hehehe, I definately dont think so, plus that should mean you could do yours in 504 hehehe.
he doesnt have the accessories to need that amount? ha, this is whats wrong with game models nowadays. Game artists, dont have the knowledge to correctly model the human anatomy (for the most part, there are exceptions) so they model huge guns, armor, clothing, blah blah blah, to cover up their innabilities. They dont know what to DO with extra polys, besides give bigger/more guns. I chose to use available polys on anatomy, which I decided was important. it is for games, and this just happens to run fine in unreal 2 engine. I dont have animations for him yet, but he glides around unmoving without a single drop in framerate. plus, i was a student before this job, and i was modeling to the poly limit that will prolly be in place when i graduate next year.

From being a long time user of maya's subd's I know that dense polys can cause dimples in the light, but when they are modeled correctly, the "dimples" are actually details, like facial muscles or bone structure. which is what I used mine to do. I also never said it was rigged for speech, i think you just wanted an excuse to use the word phenomes.

not angry at you, just your inconsistencies

[Wizard of KOZ]

I can't believe all the harsh crits...having done some character models myself (can be seen on my site) I was very impressed by all the aspects of this model. True it wouldn't run in a game like GTA, or Ratchet and Clank, but it would be more then acceptable in a fighting game like the new Mortal Kombat, or Tao Feng...it may even be under poly for those games....I'm unsure what the limits were on that....

Take a look at JAK 2, the poly limit on that is pretty high too from what I've seen so far.

I dunno I'm still a student myself, but I grad in 6 months.... I think it's kick ass all around.

Again depending on what...or even IF it were going into an engine it would need to be optimized to fit the needs of that particular engine. As a stand alone as show piece to demostrate your compentecies on modeling, rigging, unwraping, and texturing it shows your skill very well.

[poopinmymouth]

thanks Koz, I really like your models on your site, especially the pillar of seasons, the concept behind that rocks. Even if your comments were negative, I can take them more seriously since you have work of good caliber up where people can view to see if you know what your talking about or not. the engine comment, exactly right. This was for an imaginary engine which would want very detailed models that could run at a decent framerate on todays computers, not gta or warcraft 3 as you say.

[Ribking]

First off, let me say I really like this character....He's cool. The only thing that I don't particularly like with the character is the whole 4 fingers but 5 toes thing....but that's just me. I've always had an issue with that topic, though. I like the poses too...except the fact that the head is always straight with the view. The weapon is great also. And the hands and feet are money, IMHO.

I want to take a bit of time to go over what I think about your model now. ONLY because it seems to me that you are heading down that I-know-what-I'm-doing-and-you-don't-so-STFU-n00b road, and that will get you nowhere fast.... It seems to me that you are so sure of yourself, you are unwilling to see another (possibly more experienced) point of view. Hopefully you will see mine.

I think the model is good, but technically, as paniac said, for the amount of detail you have going on in that model, it's way high OR you could say for the amount of polygons, it's way nondescript (and it's evident that the wireframe of the head you posted is not the same as the original post....very evident). You talk about the use of quads in your tutorial and how they shouldn't be the focus....which is definitely true, but the finished piece doesn't seem to make use of its polygons very well...especially in the thigh and forearm areas. You talk about how bad "tube" models, but if you look at those two areas, they are not very detailed at all....especially when you consider how much detail is in the back of the model. Your anatomy is decent, but could be pushed a bit more to achieve a better silhouette.

Basically, it's a decent model, but the mistakes you talk about everyone else making are still there, albeit to a lesser extent....And yes, this model COULD be done at about half the polygons. Not that it matters.

[poopinmymouth]

Ribking, if you are infact a differnt person with only 2 posts, and not just painiac posting under a newly created name, I agree about the toes/feet, I should have done something to the feet to make them equally interesting, like maybe double big toes! (one on each side) I prolly was being to arrogant in earlier posts, my intent was not to say this was a perfect model, only to defend the actions i took when making it. So i went back, and re read the other posts, and I still think I have valid points. and about the head, I am sorry but it is the exact same wireframe, that is why i posted it with the texture on as well. If you notice in my character process page, I note that the final anatomy is 5k polys, and that is the wireframe of the face from the tutorial page, then in the character process page, I state that with the armor it is 4.5k. what I should have said explicitly is that there was optimizing between the two steps, mainly to bring down the poly count. The head in the render at the top, and the wireframe at the bottom are one and the same. and, i think your final points are invalid. when it is not 1:40 in the morning, I will render it without the textures, and you will see indeed, that there are no "tube" arms or thigh's, but that all poly lines are defining muscles. The model would hold its own even without the texture, which is why i believe it looks the way it does WITH the texture, and it would not look the same WITHOUT the geometry being as dense as it is. Yes it could be made with less, maybe 2-300 less depending on skill level, but any more than that, but I am sorry my friend, you would be losing detail, period

edit, here is what I am talking about, http://www.poopinmymouth.com/wip/wire_shade_side_by_side.jpg

[Ribking]

Originally posted by poopinmymouth
Yes it could be made with less, maybe 2-300 less depending on skill level, but any more than that, but I am sorry my friend, you would be losing detail, period

Alright, man...I'm gonna back off here. You obviously know more than my 6+ years of experience in the 3D industry has taught me.
As far as the issue with the head...Yeah I see what's up now....The higher poly one was prolly the one Painiac was refering to. Misunderstood.
When I said the hands and feet were "money", that meant I really likes them. :)
oh...nevermind. You were refering to the 4 fingers but 5 toes comment not the hands and feet are money comment
Can I see a faceted view? It's be better for seeing all the detail.

[poopinmymouth]

ribking, I know what "money" means, I am 21. cool on the head thing, I think your right that painiac was refering to same thing. its all good. yes I agree about the faceted view, but I also think that I should be able to stick to my guns, and not be considered arrogant. yes you offered critique, and so did painiac. I like critique, but I dont have to take every critique as gold. the point of critique is to look at things from someone elses point of view, and go hmmm, their right, better change OR hmm, i can see what there saying, but I like it the way i did it/ i dont think what they are suggesting is good in this case. either way you go (taking advice or leaving it) is valid. Please dont try to make me sound like a punk just because I defend my art, and dont make me sound like I am insulting you cause i dont agree with your critique, that is unprofessional of a "6+ year pro" which by the way should not have to be brought up to back a critique, cause I know of plenty of people already who are pro's who could be schooled by some of my friends still in school.
here is facet view
http://www.poopinmymouth.com/wip/facet.jpg

[Ribking]

Best of luck, then.....And congrats. :D

[Faaaccceee!!!!!!]

Sigh...........

After reading this thread i had to reply. First I'd like to congratulate Poop for the new job, I know first hand how difficult it can be to get that first gaming gig. I must agree with Painiac however, I do believe the model in question could be modeled in under 2500 polies. The ears alone could knock off maybe 200 polies or so, they are way too detailed for such a small element, any and all detail in the ear could be done with texture. Any texture artist worth his salt will tell you that most character models go 40-60. 40% model, 60% texture, that ratio may be even greater depending on the artist. 4500 polies is great for your own personal work and yes some games do render characters that high res, but for the most part a solid foundation in true low poly modeling will give you a better understanding of how polies work in 3d space. That said I feel that this character should have more detail for that amount of polies, the feet were looking really nice till I saw the faceted ver. there are lots of little polies that are being used that could be used elsewhere, you'd have to be very close to the model for these lil polies to even take notice. If we were talking about a real game engine those polies would be eating valuable memory.

All in all I like the model keep up the good work, but please be a little more open minded with the critiscm for other posters. I'm not asking you to change the model but to be aware of a few elements for the next model you build. Once again congrats on the job.

[UpShift]

What's everyone's opinions on quads versus triangles when modeling a low res character. I'm going to try my hand at taking one of my doodles to 3D and I was going to do the whole thing in quads. However, if triangles work just as well, I'd use those. I find that quads deform better when animated is all.

Nice work on this character, and good use of the UV's for texturing. I always tend to have a lot of wasted space in mine. Then again, I've only worked on personal projects thus far, so no biggy.

upshift

[poopinmymouth]

i think that most of you are missing the point of this model, which is not to capture huge stylistic silhouette with polys used, but to capture subtle detail. That is the key word for this model subtle. yes most polys are not defining life changing areas but they are defining something which adds to the overall definition of the model. I think for the most part, the naysayers just like taking aposing points of view, and or want to make sure the noobs know whose boss-in-charge around here. I had a 3.5k poly limit on this assignment (was for while I was still in school) and I went over because I thought it necessary. many details would not be seen in game when the whole body is on the screen at the same time, but I wanted it to hold up to in game cinematics that might have camera shots that included only parts of the model (hands or feet)

whether it could be modeled in 2500 is a moot point, of course it could, it could also be modeled in 1000 polys, but neither way would look as good as with this many, that is what I am trying to say. Maybe if all you saw was the entire character only taking up half your monitor with a resolution of 1028x760 (whatever that resolution is) then it would look the same, but I was going for quality on this, not cutting corners. and I believe in the 50-50, 50% model 50% geometry, if your modeler is worth his pay, the texture artist shouldnt have to do more work than they to get model up and running. Geom HAS to support texture, otherwise we would still be just painting a texture on a flat plane and having the plane move around the screen.

edit: agian interesting to get a post from someone with this as their only post, sounds like one of the previous posters registering a new name just to try to back up his own claim.

[painiac]

lol, nah i'm not being harsh guys. Just an opinion he asked for a fucking crit. And i dont post as two people, whatever that was about. To clarify things, the image i saw from your tutorial is not the same head. You tutorial head, shows alot more polygons, it's probly because it's triangulated. whatever the case, the views you posted look good, so I apologise or whatever. Have fun man. I'm not going to comment anymore, sick of being flamed for a damned crit.

And your blind, you said it was going to be rigged for speech on your site. just look at it. I think it was "preserved detail for facial animation" or somethign along those lines. As for your comment on most artist not knowing how to model the human body. it's art man. and tell you the truth yours is far from a normal human body. never met anyone with those proportions before, especially with a child like face on a hulking conan-esq body. It's good man, i was just criting, get used to it, and your obviously very close minded. You wont get far debating crits in teh game industry, just take it in to mind, if the crit is a minority crit dont worry about it, but if a few people notice it, take it in to account. You are making art FOR other peopl in the games industry, not for yourself. It's a little different.

You guys really over react when you get a bad crit. It was a suggestion, i did'nt hold a gun to your head. I like the design, i could care less what the count is, but you did go over your limit as you stated, somone else obviously thought you could do it in less.

[poopinmymouth]

someone seems to be upset. At no point during this have i been angry at any of the posters. There is a difference between a fight, and a debate. I was debating, apparently you thought I was fighting.

Your right that the proportions are idealized, I was going for the proportions they use for Nightcrawler in the new xmen, if I wanted a perfect reproduction, i would just take a picture of a real person. I wanted these propotions, so I modeled them.

I am very used to critiques, and I am not closed minded because I say you are wrong. I can have an opinion just as much as you can. You mean I overreact because I have something to say back? I think you are used to giving critiques to people without spirit, pushovers if you will. critiques are supposed to be back and forth conversations, not just you pointing something out, and the artist bowing meekly while he carries out your wishes.

I went over my limit because I thought my character needed it. The limit was a generic, model a character in 3.5k polys. But I still got an A on the model because my game prof said that it was justified. He personally did not think I could do it in less.

[painiac]

You so just put yoself down and described what a close mind was perfectly. You've said nothing about the critique i gave you, you just got defensive about your artwork. I'm not upset, in fact this is getting rediculous. your the only person i know that fights or debates over crits. You've said nothing to counter in a creative way, just insulted other artists "inability to model realisticly" and then you just said they were idealistic proportions based on a fictional character. I'm just really confused. Good luck with whatever you do. I wont hire you, but still good luck. Never meant any offense. And it's really not like i'm the only one, it's just convienient to pick one crit i guess. Then again, you get this kinda shit in every forum you posted that in. Maybe, just maybe we're trying to help. Don't swat down everything you hear because you personally think it's wrong. I'd like you to have that attitude with your boss one day. And about your teacher. I think thats really dissapointing. If he set a count, there should be no justification for breaking the limits. You don't get that freedom in real life, why accept it in school for it. I'm done, you probly should'nt comment either, i'm not going to look at it. You never know what prospective employers are looking at your posts also, keep that in mind.

And good god are you paranoid delusional. Check the damned i.p,'s they are logged. You sound like you need some growing up to do. Your very very defensive. Frankly i'm too old and busy to go creating fake accounts on forums. Not trying to insult you, just it's not healthy to act this way. And by the way, your 2d art is amazing. Personally I think you should develop that more. A good concept artist is alot harder to come by then a modeler. Those full size images of your friends or whatever are stunning. Have fun, and I would suggest practice in the lower counts if you want to be a realtime modeler. Games are usually made for the lowest common system. Regardless of the loss of detail, because well no shit you loose some minor detail. But unless the character is going to stand still and let you inspect him like a statue in game, the player is'nt really going to give a shit. Realtime is more functional building then you think. You have the method down, just optomise it for different level counts. And dude, if your gunna use that many polys use a more detailed res texmap. you could do wonders with it.

[KingsSeven]

GI is over used.
Other than that its okay.

[poly_cube]

really inspiring model man- love the texture map and even the four fingers lol

Personally I didn’t care about the cockyness in the tutorial it’s the information that maters the most. to me it’s a fantastic tutorial. Easy to follow – well explained. Hope to see more tutorials/models in the future man keep it up.

here is a noobish question.

In maya you have the option of adjusting your poly count and still keep the original (or more or less) shape of the object. Couldn't he just use that option?

what would be the disadvantage to that?