Questions about Texture Artists???

[dyoung]

How do you make a texture map? What is the process? I see allot of postings for jobs about Texture Artists, but how should one tailor his/her portfolio to cater to a skill set like that? Are there any tutorials out there that shed some light on this?

dyoung

[ChadTHX1138]

It is the painting of a texture or a material that represents a real or fake surface. Then it is placed/mapped onto a section of 3D model. like skin, cloth, metal etc.

I hate to say this, But learn to draw, learn to model and paint.

I worked in video games for a long time and painting textures get's old quick. and that is just a third of what makes a model or environment good. Learn all you can including mapping, dont just focus on that. I am not saying there isnt an art to being a good mapper there is.

But after awhile you would hate being a "texture monkey" and that is not rewarding enough to feel creative.

[Deth Jester]

You dont have to learn to draw first.. you could go straight into learning to model in 3d.. I recomend you go download a trial version of Maya or 3Ds Max.. Go pick up a book that has tutorials in it, and just go through the tutorials.. it will have everything you need to know for the basics.. If you want to learn to model charecters and need a book, go buy the 3Ds Max book on Modeling Charecters.. its a big yellow thick book.. Has tons of info.. If you arent into books, go to www.cgtalk.com and register as a member, and start searching for tutorials.. or go to google.com and serach for tutorials.. ask in the lounge thread here on Conceptart.org for tutorials or in the 3D thread... Im sure people might have a few links... If you dont do well on learning on your own, find a local school that teachs 3D.. good luck

peace.

[dyoung]

Hey Chad-
Yeah I can see how doing textures all day could get old fast. I just kept seeing all these jobs for texture artists, and was sort of curious about the entire scope of what they do.

Death-
I have just recently gotten a student version of Maya 4.0 and am in the process of learning it. I did learn a bit of 3D Studio Max back in HS, and would like to know more about it but I need to get that program as well. Before they went to Maya, I believe Alias Wavefront's Animation package was Alias/Wavefront 8.5 I spent a summer at a workshop here at my school learning that.

Thanks for the advice. to the both of ya
dyoung

[ChadTHX1138]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you jester.

I have seen a lot of guys come out of school taught to be billy badass modeler but can't draw a stick figure to save thier life and make great mechanical models, but you look at any of thier figures and they all look wonky. You want to make great texture maps, learn to paint. Game systems are able to handle higher polygon counts now and I have seen quite a few 3D guys on the forums that could do with some life drawing classes and you can't fake it with high polys. How could anyone think that learning to draw couldnt help?

If you learn to DRAW and PAINT first you will blow em all out of the water. You can only bluff your way around things for so long and that belief doesn't get you work at Pixar or Disney. I know and have worked for a large game company that will not hire you unless you have the art skills.

STEPHEN HAGG STAHLBERG CAN DRAW HIS ASS OFF!"His site" (http://www.optidigit.com/stevens/) go check out his other art. If he didnt know how draw or paint, do you think his Girls would look that good?

Yes you could go straight into modelling, but Do You want to be just ok? or would you think it was wiser to get the fundemental art skills first.

[dyoung]

Hey Chad-
Your point is very good indeed. I always agreed that learning to paint and draw is pivitol in becoming a better aritst be it modeler, animator, or whatever lol how can you not appreciate the human body?

You both have great points. I wanted to work for a Game Company doing CONCEPT ART origionally, but no one seems to want just a concept artist. So I figured that maybe Texture Art would at least help me break into the industry. But I also agree that painting textures all day would definatley get old real fast. So that's what I think on that. But it also seems that if you want to work in the Game Industry today you have to have Computer Animation experience, and since I am an Illustrator and am graduating as an Illustrator not a Computer Animator, it seems difficult to break into that industry. So I am trying to learn all these different things to help me get into the Gaming Industry. Trying to learn everything from how to model in Maya to doing textures. I also am trying to learn more and more about the anatomy of the figure. But it is frustrating trying to get a job in the Gaming Industry when it seems all they want are Computer Animators. *lol...

Sorry to banter on like that but it's a conundrum that I am going crazy over.

dyoung

[Neox]

hmmmm sure drawing is helpfull, but you definately don't need it to be a good modeller, you need a good "eye" and a good knowledge. I learned alot anatomy and dynamic with books, i learned alot of stuff about colors and composition AND I don't think that anyone has to be good with the pencil to be a good modeller/texture artist, it all depends on what you want, to have a aim is much more helpful then a pen in your hand... just my 2 cents

i won a few prices and contests, i'm working in the business and i can't even draw a straight line... but i'm aiming on creating cool characters with a lot of life in em, thats what pushed me forward and not my missing drawing skills...

[ChadTHX1138]

Neox i dont disagree with your comments.

My point is, to think you can get by with knowing one thing without the other is naive. You can settle on one thing, and that is as good, as you will get, if you are not willing to open up and learn the other.

Being well rounded gets you the kind of work you want to do faster. As an "example" all of the artists on Turok and I am sure Metroid do the following... They Design the characters and settings. They build the models and paint the maps on them,Some or all build the levels and light them. and wierd enough they have guys that just animate or map models. But I bet all the artists wear a good majority of hats.

So learning to model, paint and draw will further you. Like i said earlier, the polygon counts are goin up up up and the size of texture maps are getting big big big. If you dont know your stuff you will be swallowed, because you cant hide things with low polys or photoshop a render when the game is in motion. Look how high the standards are getting now.

None of your opinions are wrong.This is a very important topic though.

[dyoung]

Neox
Chad
To: Everyone who has posted thus far-

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far, your comments have given me allot to think about.

Neox- I understand where you are coming from and I agree that skill as a modeler/animator is important. But I have to agree with Chad that you need the artistic skill as well. I see it all the time here at my school. The people who get hired are the ones who not only know how to model, but have a good artistic head about them.

Chad- I agree with you about the polys. A few weeks ago a company came here and were telling us how the whole issue of "rendering" is not going to be a problem soon. They were talking about withing a few years the ammounts of polys used is going to triple! So basically everything and anything the artist will want to do can be done as opposed to a few years ago where there were limitations in technology that prevented doing some things.

Thanks alot to everyone. You all have given me tons of info to churn over.

dyoung
www.rsad.edu/~dyoung1

[Erik]

If i get triple the polys i'll probably start whining about having three times as much again ;-)

It's always the same with technology. We should design/work now maybe for what's possible in 3 years (game developers do) but the artists will want to push the limits of technology.

They will say: hey, cool, this much polys. But can i have motion blur? Can i have real-time hardware depth of field? Can i have real-time skin animation? Or whatever. So we'll always push those limits and will ahve to make do with what is available in a creative manner...

[dyoung]

Erik-

LOL true true

there is always a need for more I suppose... You get a new toy, but does it come turbo charged? lol I remember when I was all Crazy about the Cinematics in War Craft 2 But when War Craft 3 Cinematics came out I was in awe. I don't know what to expect from future games, and the Cinematics they have. I can't believe half the things I see now!

dyoung

[Deth Jester]

hey,

sorry I ddidnt keep with the thread.. but.. to defend myself.

You dont have to know how to paint or draw to start modeling, just learn anatomy etc... and learn from life.. be a perfectionist.. to texture just learn photoshop at first, and then start learning to draw and paint your textures..
*shrug* I dont really care.. do whatever you want.

peace

[dyoung]

Hey Jester
Thanks for the info. I see so many different points of view, and all of it great advice. Thanks alot for helpin a guy out. I have been dabbleing a bit in making my own textures in PS, I will try to get one up maybe later this week so you all can rip it up LOL

Thanks again.
Dyoung

[Neox]

thats what i meant, you DON'T have to be good with the pencil, to have a artistic skill, the pencil is only a tool as a 3d package is only a tool, you can learn EVERYTHING with your tool, and it really really doesn't matter what your tool is

[SpaceRabbit]

I have to agree with Chad in this case. Traditional drawing and painting helps you to go beyond simply observing how things work. It forces your mind to begin to be imprinted by what you are observing through the act of trying to get that image down on paper or canvas. Without actually trying to paint, how does one learn to mix colors? Now you can use Photoshop or Painter or whatever to do this, but I still think it's important to go through the act of taking what you see and trying to translate it down to a 2d canvas.

I constantly review portfolios of students who learn to model and learn the in's and outs of 3d packages, but they have no grasp on color theory, or value or composition. The fundementals of illustration apply to the 3d world, not just illustration. How can you create an environment when you can't paint textures that work well together because of color problems? How do you expect to lead a player through a set when you don't understand composition?

I am of the school or mindset that the more traditional background you have, the better you will be in the 3d world.

Just my 2 cents, take for what they're worth.

[dyoung]

Neox-
I agree that proficiency in a 3D package is a definate plus. I got into an argument with my roommate the other day because he believes that using the computer at all is cheating. I strongly disagree with that rationale of thought, and countered with the idea that painting, drawing, or 3D is a tool. BUT...you MUST have a solid understanding of the principles and theories behind art. Color theory, as well as composition are so important. As to weather you can learn this in a 3D software program? I actually don't know. lol I have hardly any experience using 3D software programs. I know enough to get myself into trouble as my dad would say. But I suspect that their is at least some truth to that. After all it is a tool.

SpaceRabbit-
I also agree with your opinion. I suppose that since I started this thread, I have taken up a position as moderator, or at least devil's advocate. Since I am an illustration major, I see things and understand things the way you have explained them. I see the 3D software programs as a tool to help me communicate the ideas that I want. But they always start on paper. Thumbnails to color studies, to the final rendered image. Like I said I am an illustrator first and foremost. Even though I want to learn everything there is to know about 3D software programs like Maya, I still do the majority of my work on paper, and the theories and rules I have learned translate over into the 3D world.

Thank you both for your opinions. This is a great thread!

dyoung
:chug:

[Neox]

@SpaceRabbit, the problem i see with your thesis is that you (imho) are not "respecting" the new Media, such as 3d

Do you really think that anyone needs to be good with the pencil to understand color, composition and stuff? Why do you think so, does someone who is drawing with a pencil has to know how to draw with brushes to understand what he is doing? I guess not, these are (as i said before) just tools, you can learn color theory, anatomy, composition, skecthing and so on with every tool, even it is "just" a 3d Package, I know a lot of people that can't draw, or aren't good in drawing but they are great artists, the can model, texturize, composite, pose, animate (and so on) without ANY experience in "classical" media, in my oppinion anyone can get a great artist, it doesn't matter what he is using to do art and knowledge ind traditional art is good for 3d (thats for sure) but its not essential to understand "the principles and theories behind art" (thanx to dyoung for that phrase :) )

:chug:

[SpaceRabbit]

Neox, I do indeed respect 3d as a viable medium, I work in it every day. It is my prefered medium to be honest.

What I was trying to say in my post was that I did feel that it helps to have had a traditional background of mixing paint, painting on site from direct observation, working in a studio drawing from the figure. There is a different process I think that happens in the brain between translating a figure model in front of you thats in 3d to 2d on paper. I think through this process you begin to store away information about color and lighting and proportion and anatomy and so on.

Is this critical to being a good 3d artist? I'm not sure I can anwser that. Do I think it makes for a better 3d artist, absolutely. I know that in meetings with producers and art directors it's a valuable skill to be able to quickly jot down an idea on a peice of paper or whiteboard to show them what I'm thinking.

Now, I don't think there's need to take a defensive tone, in your posts. I did not personaly single you out with my last post now did I? I only presented an opinion, and some observations from the few years I've been in the industry of content creation.

[Neox]

no i havvent seen it as an offense against me, but i'm speaking for all those 3d artist that can't draw a straight line... yeah i can scribble to show what i'm thinking, but i definately have no fineart skills :D

[Kaylon]

In today's Market place, most companies in the games industry (mine Included) are looking for artist that can produce quality 2D work regardless of what there final discipline is. The company I work for as a Senior Texture artist (Real Time Worlds formally known as DMA Designs did games such as GTA, Lemmings and other titles) are currently looking for environmental and character artist. For both positions though we are looking for raw 2D talent as well as 3D knowledge.

The Character Artist has to have great Concept skills in 2D as well as High 3D modelling Skills.

This goes the same for "Texture" Artists, Not only are we producing world textures but we are Modelling the Props they go on and producing the Concepts of these Items.

So to get to my point hehe and the point of this thread sorta, a Texture artist cant be put into a slot anymore, he/she does not just paint and produce wall textures anymore, he/she has to have strong 2D and 3D skills as most of the time he/she will be using Both.

This goes for almost any position in the Industry, apart from 3D animators hehe :) , they don't need huge skills in 2D as such but again they usually do now (Now I've upset all the animators).

In anything art related I feel it's a must to know the basics. I feel without knowing the basics of "art" you could Model great....but you'd never be a Great Modeller if ya know what I mean Same goes for Illustration, Texture work, design everything. You need to know the basics to compete in the field. By saying Basics I don't mean being able to draw like Justin Sweet, I mean the basic concepts of Volume, light, colour, Form.... these are the basics of "art" .

Kay.

[Neox]

m,aybe i'm the only one thinking like this, and maybe im kinda bother you with my oppinions but are the basics of art ( Volume, light, colour, Form ) linked to a 2 dimensional / non digital Media?

[Kaylon]

Umm, nope.

Gonna try and explain myself a little better :).


It's not the medium used but how that medium is used to create the desired effect. Or hehehe okay ... you might have the skills and natural talent to draw like Justin Sweet etc, But if you don't kow what an apple looks like how are ya gonna draw it. The basics is knowing what the apple looks like.

The basics of art is knowing how light changes, Knowing what the human form looks like, how it moves, any form for that matter, knowing how colour changes with distance, and atmosphere etc....

Most of this sorta knowlage traditionaly comes from 2D studies, non digital, digital and even photography.

There are many 3D artists that are great artist in there given field, but as said can't draw (paper or photoshop) a line. But they probably would be better if they could.

Kay.

[Kaylon]

And to add one more thing.

How to make a texture :).

Your average game texture will usually be 256x256 or other power of 2 size, 16x16, 32x32, 128x256 etc.

As a base it's a good idea to create your texture at least twice the game size, so you'd do a 256x256 at 512 etc. The actual creation of the texture depends what the purpose is but a good idea is to do a "Base" texture set. The base texture set will consist of fairly plain textures, mainly tones and subtle textures. These can be built on later and helps bring continuity to a texture set.

It's always a good idea even when making textures to work from ref, or even use that ref directly in the texture. I mainly produce environmental textures so the big thing you need to do is make sure the texture tiles in ALL directions. A trick for this is the Offset filter in Photoshop, you can duplicate your base texture to a new layer, offset it by Half the size (if texture is 512 offset by 256 in both directions) and using the eraser rub out to reveal the original below and get rid of your seams, the texture should now tile and the main prob is solved :). If your doing sets for games like CS, or other FPS games you usually end up doing photo real textures, so USE photos. The photos will still require work (sometimes a vast amount of work) to get em game ready but use em.

If your wanting to add texture work to your portfolio id suggest working on Themes or sets. Don't just do random walls or grass or clouds of odd colours. Produce complete sets. A texture set might include several walls all based on one "base" wall, these will need doors, roof and floor trim, weathered walls, again using the same "base" set Windows and light fittings but again all based on the same "base" set of textures.

Aint covered a huge amount here, but I hope it helps a little :).

Kay.

[dyoung]

Hey Kay-

Very good points.. I am going crazy myself trying to find a job, now that I am graduating in about 2 weeks. It seems to me that anyone who is in the Illustration field trying to break into the Gaming Industry has a strike against him/her already because he or she isn't skilled in a 3D Software Program. I see all these Game Companies come to my school looking for help, but they all say the same thing. They want students with 3D work. Digital work is good but you almost have to know 3D anymore. Don't get me wrong, I want to learn how to model, and animate, but I am an illustrator and that's what I went to school for. I want to do concept design and it seems that it's almost impossible to get into that because all the companies want you to have knowledge making Textures, or modeling or animating.

To tell you the truth this is the whole reason I started this post. I just want to know what more I can do to increase my chances of getting a job at a game company. I want to work as a concept artist, but it seems in order to do that I have to have skill at being a texture artist, or a modeler or animator or something other than what I want to do. Don't get me wrong I want to learn to model, as I said before, but it's frustrating trying to get a job when there are so many different equations attached.

Keep em comin guys! I love hearing your remarks!!!

dyoung
www.rsad.edu/~dyoung1
dyoung1@rsad.edu

[SpaceRabbit]

Hey D, I went to Ringling also and majored in Illustration. It's true that many studios are looking for concept artists that can serve multiple task, from designing characters to texturing them as well. Many are looking for concept artists who can do game concepts along with color comps/palettes for those levels/characters. Others look for a concept artist that can do the concepts needed for the game along with the Graphic design work like the menu screens, logos etc. It really varies from studio to studio. The smarter studios just look at the concept artist to create the concept are needed for the title, and then have a seperate UI designer that has a graphic design background to do the UI/Logo work and then a character artist to do all the character maps. At any rate, if you want to be a concept artist, I would still focus on concept artwork as your primary focus. If a studio see's really solid concept art, they should know that they can grow you into any other roles they may have in mind like texturing or what not.

I know for me, I would much rather take a good illustrator and teach them the 3d side of things, then have a guy who knows the software, but doesn't have the art sense behind the tech.

Don't despair, it takes time to find the first gig.

Good luck!

[dyoung]

SPACERABBIT!!!!!!!:D

YOU WENT TO RINGLING????!!!! KUDOS!:chug:

You know you bring a very good point to light. I very much agree with the line of thinking you described. I feel personally that it is easier and indeed wiser to take a technical artist (one who has the traditional background) and train him or her to use the 3D software, then it is to take a 3D modeler or animator and teach him or her the traditional art concepts that one such as an illustrator would get from a 4 year school. (NOT to say that the 3D guys and gals don't have knowledge in art theory.) You do, however get more bang for your buck in my opinion when you would hire someone with a traditional art background and train them.

but.....

I am biased, because I am looking for a job LOL and would like to work for a game company.

Anyways, thanks for the encouragement SpaceRabbit! When did you go to Ringling if I may ask?

dyoung
www.rsad.edu/~dyoung1
dyoung1@rsad.edu

[Kaylon]

Totally agree....

It is far better to teach a traditional artist 3D, then to try and teach a Modeller to draw. Thats why when we look for modellers we look at there traditional background :).

Your in no bad situation, keep working at the concept side, the 2D side, as rabbit said most folks look for that regardless of what role you may play in the future. As I said in my first post, were looking for raw 2D talent, 3D is secondry as most decent artists can learn a 3D packadge in a short time (for the basics). It is however no bad thing to show diversity :).

Kay.

[dyoung]

kay-

Thanks for the advice. One thing I have heard from several people is that there is a risk (if one becomes a texture aritst) of becoming stuck in that area and not being able to get out. I would love to just get a job at concept, as I have said before... but I also want to learn the 3D aspects

Thanks again Kay for the advice

dyoung
www.rsad.edu/~dyoung1
dyoung1@ringling.edu

[ChadTHX1138]

SPACE RABBIT, DYOUNG...That brings up another point, when i worked at Acclaim we mainly hired illustrators. I had a track record of having guys modelling and setting up skin and bones withing two weeks, So you are right, it is much easier to train a skilled artist.

The art institute of (it will remain nameless) came to us asking why we never hire thier students, and our answer was "You guys just train people in software, not art"

When i was first hired in the game industry it was because of my drawing skills, I never used photoshop or a 3d package, and they trained me and had me going in no time. So yes you can get in with just an art portfolio and a willingness to learn.

This is not to say someone trained only in 3d cannot get in, they can! but a majority of the demo reals that come in look weak because thats all that person is focused on, was that particular software package.

I love 3D! it's fun to play with! there are good 3D guys that could be so much better though. Usually we saw a lot of bad lighting and bad textures and 2/3 of the models were not all that great. But you show and art director good art skills to go with that, then you have a stronger shot at getting your foot in the door and the art director will be more forgiving. Because you have an understanding or basic knowledge of color, light, etc.

Be aware that not only does the art director see your work, but in some cases entire art departments. Dont let that pressure you though.

It amazes me how many times i hear how people go to school get trained how to do just 3D and are brain washed by the teachers that they will have a job as soon as they graduate, and then can't get work. Odds are slim.

Now texture painting, thats a tough job to do well! Now i am rambling on...Great discussion though!

[poly_cube]

sorry if this was already mention and i'm only regurgitating it, but nothing like last min places to go!

anyways to sum up:

drawing and painting is good....and in this business (3d games/ect) the more you can offer to an employer the more VALUBLE you will be..and there for have a better chance vs someone who just can bust out a low poly character.

a degree isn't needed but it certainly doesn't hurt to have (this is after all a demo reel run industry)

so if you want to make good textures- learn to paint- then get painter. Or just start out with painter and read online tutorials but don’t take my word for it. Just look companies who are hiring. "traditional art a plus" that plus could sink you a job.

don't give half ass reasons why you shouldn't learn to draw/paint because gaming is a forever changing business with new bars set for noobs. remeber that.

“you only have to worry about competition if you suck.”

[Sephirah]

Here's the technical side of texture creation: First thing to think about when creating textures is the limitation of the hardware. If you are working on PS2, for instance, you have a limited amount of texture memory. Not to mention the fact that moire patterning can become an issue, so horizontal lines are a no-no unless you can implement mipmapping. then you have to make sure that the contrast on your textures is relatively low, or you get more visual artifacting. going back to texture memory, you will want to limit your texture size depending on how close to it you are going to get. the closer, the larger, unless it's a lox contrast repeating texture. Then bit depth comes into play. you can fit more 4 bit textures into memory than you can 8 bit at the same size. most people forget that a 256x256 pixel texture is actually the equivalent of 4 128x128 textures.

it goes on and on.

As for the artistic side, it's always nice to have a digital camera around for reference photos. Most of the textures I had to create were based on real life environments so a majority of them started out as a photo. This is not to say that the end result will be that photo. I agree with whoever it was that said you should work on your art skills primarily. Your sense of color and lighting comes into play quite a bit.

Learn how to creat tiling textures. Variations on your base texture are almost always used, so make sure you know how to work with layers in photoshop.

If I can think of anything more, I will type it up. Sorry for the rambling post, I just needed to get it all down...

-todd