education being more important than talent

[Patton Art]

Hello,
I haven't posted in a LONG time. My ex-friend stole my digital camera and my computer has been running extremely slow (I think there's a virus on it). I can barely talk on AOL/AIM and listen to music without it slowing down.

But anyways-- I have a project for art history to do. Basically the theme is that education is the greatest factor in producing a good artist; not talent. In fact, I go as far as to say that there is no such thing as talent. Da Vinci wasn't born painting the Mona Lisa; Bougeaureau apparently sucked until he got into art school and worked every day for 10 hours a day on his work; etc etc.

I say that there is such a thing as natural ability; some people are born able to draw a little better than others (probaby because of being around more art or being more observational when they were younger, or simply they were just the "loner" in grade school that drew all the time and got more practice than the others).

Anyways, I'm wondering if anyone else has anything to say about this. Maybe a quote from a well known artist? Maybe a quote from an artist here?

Thanks for any input :)

[Android]

Well I was a "loner" in gradeschool who spent all his time drawing, and I started art lessons when I was in kintergarden, and went to and art school after high school. talent is a very loose and over used phrase, I hear alot of people who dont consider themselves talented refer to people with skill as "talented" as if somehow they were endowed with a certain gift that they werent, sometimes if feels like people use the word as an excuse or an explination for something they dont understand.

I dont necesiarily think I was born with the ability to draw, artistic skills are not really an instinct. they are learned. However if there was something that seperated me from my peers, it was the drive to want to create art. I cant ever remember not wanting to draw of paint, when I started i was just as good or bad as the next guy, the drive to want to draw, evolved into the desire to want to be an artist, that want grew to the point where I kew there was no other role for me but to become an artist. it was more an eveloution of passion , than what one refers to as talent.

as far as education goes, sure its important, but there would still be talented artists if every school dissipeared, artists dont need a teacher and a classroom to learn. the world we live in and an appreciation for the depiction of beauty has made wonderfull artists throughout history.

ok im just rambeling now so I will shut up
:)
good luck with your project.

[tyboogie]

yea--what android said



also --i think someone with less "talent" can, with diligence and devotion, far surpass someone with more talent



Calvin Coolidge said


"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; for the world is full of talented, unsuccessful people. Genius will not; for unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; for the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and dedication alone are omnipotent.

[otis]

Exactly!!

[Crunch]

...WORD...

[Jaku]

it was more an eveloution of passion , than what one refers to as talent.

I totally agree :thumbsup:

[Lono]

i agree with all of you guys, especially about the dedication part,, however i think there is a certian capacity for art that a person must posess at birth that may very well be hereditary... for instance,, a very large and fundamental part of reproducing life in art is the natural born ability to recognize patterns. not just in life but in your own brush strokes and technique. you have to be able to process patterns and reproduce them consistantly. mixing complementary patterns to create an origional pattern is called creativity. there also needs to be a deep fascination and a passion for creating in general.
pattern recognition and deconstruction is a high function of the brain and some are just born with very little capacity for it.
like i know some people who were just born with NO rhythm and thats almost impossable to learn. there are also people who are born with perfect pitch who can sing an E-sharp or a B-flat right off the top of there head. how does a person learn that?

if i had been trained at birth to play chess and it was my primary goal in life,, i still dont believe i would be able to beat bobby fisher. he was born with an inhuman capacity for the game that i just dont posess. now im sure i could be really good, but there is a barrier that i could not cross.

we are all born with limited capacities to all of our physical and mental abilitys. very few of us ever even come close to reaching those boundaries,, but its those of us who really try who will always be labled gifted or talented.

-Lono

[keyth]

i have heard people say that a truely talented person is one that can work REALLY hard.

[egerie]

I also often get the talent argument as if it was a gift from heaven. "Some people have it, some don't." which I totally disagree with.
I also think passion is a great fuel to learn and comprehend principles in order to do good art. What may explain the natural ability of some people is their short learning curve. Sure you don't need a teacher and class to explain to you what a core shadow is, but it sure as heck helps your progress.
Some artists will learn the same things on their own, some will do it on benches.
On those some will learn super fast and will appear godly to their peers, for some it'll take more time -if they don't get discouraged and keep at it.

Talent is knowledge. Wither it's strick theory on contrasts, laws on thirds or gold square OR instinctive use of colours, composition, etc. Some people don'T realise it but there's a huge load of unconscious thinking in the making process of an artwork. Even when making a doodle while on the phone !
What am saying is that you can be a scholar out of the best art school of art or a self taught artist that'd been working his ass of and still be at the same level. If you understand, you win.

[fell]

Art talent is your genetical modifiers running you to art devotion. I believe someone can be born with a certain capacity, not for drawing specifically, but with a kind of intelligence related with the drawing skill. Types of intelligence isn’t as narrow and “dumb” and “smart”, and someone creative has the tendency to endure his drawing skill, because is easier for him to get details and abilities (it isn’t “easy”, but “easier”), so is nothing but natural to work hard on certain ability. Some folks might find it easier then others.
In the other hand, you can also grow some interest in this field due to past experiences and key points in your life that made you believe how important drawing can be, even without the natural presets of a genetic heritage. Genius like Da Vince or Michelangelo were born with a highly intelligence in both logics and creativity, understanding the obvious and daring to create things never imagined. If, in some part of their life, they understudied that political philosophy was more important then art, well, they would come up with fundamental values for that. But art were their devotion, yet they could be philosophers, but not in the same level of someone devoted.

Now why the talented eager to learn more after experiencing how easier for him it is to learn something knew in this related skill? Now that’s another story.

Sorry the messy English, it isn’t the same with a second language.

[Hett15]

I look at it like this.

Everyone was given a brand new unsharpened pencil to draw with. In order get anything out of it you must sharpen it. How much you sharpen your pencil will determine the amount of different ways you can use it.

of course then some people argue that they got the 2b while other people were given a 4b and his has a cooler eraser or shiny colors on it. To these people I say...just shut he hell up I was only making a simple analogy! :evilbat:

[Lost]

True Story....

I went to Columbus College of Art and Design and roomed with 2 guys that were both 10 times better then me.

However, I worked hard because I "sucked" because I wanted to get better.

The other guys would do an "A+" piece in an hour...
Iwould struggle all night to produce a average piece, oftenrestarting 2 or three times.

The other guys partied when I worked, or just goofed off.

I was the only one who Graduated. One failed out becuase of attendence and the other failed out because....well not quite sure...he just did.

Not quite sure what this really has to do with anything but it is one of the few things in life that I am proud of.

:chug:

[John P.]

-Passion, dedication and drive are most definitely very important, maybe the most important aspects if you want to become a great artist. That's why I suck; I don't have the passion.
I have a job that's both mentally and physically draining(not involving art in any way), and I sometimes/often just don't have the energy to draw 'cause I'm too tired. And when I'm too tired - if I then sat down and tried to draw, it would only suck, 'cause I need the extra will and energy that painting/drawing requires for it to be good.

So I guess the passionate ones - those who can sit down and draw ten hours straight several days in a row and still hold a different job - those are the ones who become great. Or crazy... http://home.online.no/~johmoe/smilies/erm.gif

BUT... I would say that; I remember when I was like five to seven years old, in school when we were supposed to draw things, I drew things as I saw them, and it turned out as people with arms and hands and fingers and hair and.... so on. While the other kids pretty much just doodled without any form at all.

So maybe that was 'talent'. As I didn't work hard at that age to be better than the others; it just was that way.

But talent without the urge to better oneself and work hard at it, isn't worth anything, 'cause then it won't evolve.

[Tedsuo]

I didn't really start drawing until I was twenty. I feel like I missed the boat, but I'm swimming like a motherfucker.

[ChadTHX1138]

TALENT... to hear that word from someone who doesnt draw or paint really bugs me, It always sounds like it is something that is EASY. like i didnt really do anything.

[pibb991]

i agree with with whats been said that hard work gets you everywhere. but i do think some people are born with more ability than others. some people are good at math(not me), some are atheletic etc. and i think it goes the same way artisically. but in the end without drive and motivation you wont get far

[mtw]

I went to a lecture this past Monday where the artist mentioned some guy who was a deaf-mute. The deaf-mute (I don't remember his name) spent all his time working on art, and never bothered to learn sign language or reading. I saw a couple of his drawings, and they were pretty good.

[gekitsu]

success is 5% inspiration and 95% transpiration.

although success isn't really the term to use for art...

[Beer Baron]

Originally posted by Tedsuo
I feel like I missed the boat, but I'm swimming like a motherfucker.

That is the greatest quote I have ever heard!
:D




John P.
I feel your pain. Don't give up.
:chug:

[Goo]

whats been said i pretty much agree with.
just my 2cents..

i feel that talent is just another buzzword cooked up by someone who doesnt really have the drive to excel in that particular field.(heck, maybe al gore might claim he invented that word:D ) sure, some people may be better than others, i feel that this is because of their interests. i never really liked numbers, unless their positive numbers in my bank account. i totally sucked at arithematics, cause i couldnt be bothered to listen n process the tougher equations.

hard work CAN overcome what little natural interest or ability people call talent. micheangelo didnt complete the sistine chapel ceiling by just waking up and going off to work for a few hours. sure, you could say he was forced by the pope, with his life on the line, but the drive to create something perfect can be seen in all his works.

rant over...;)

[blackhand]

Education and training will only take a person so far. I think this is especially true about college, as most of the things that I learned were outside of the classroom or in internships. An artist really needs to push himself to learn--the more you put in, the more you get out of it.

But talent cannot really thrive in a vacuum. For artists, I think the greatest benefit of being in school is being surrounded by other artists, especially ones better than you that make you want to succeed and better your craft. That sort of friendly competition is really a boon to a developing artist.

In regards to talent and art, I believe some people are inherently talented and predisposed towards art than others. But like education, talent will only take a person so far.

Like others have said, it really boils down to how much you want something. Education and talent are both just means to an end.

[Android]

Just because I have got and education dosent mean I use it, Take a look at my spelling and sentance structure, its a 6th grade level at best. and I dont even want to admit what grade level my math would be at

talent is just a word anyway, what makes art is untangiable. I wouldant want to know the anwser if ther was one.

[Irate Customer]

I think one thing that can be misconstrued is the association with talent and creativity. When someone puts together an outstanding concept piece, it was created using both skill and talent. They are two different monsters. The creativity, or talent, was the fact that the artist created the piece from their imagination. That part is a talent which is needed to put together a great concept piece. But the skills take over when the time comes to put pencil to paper, and even the approach and planning prior to that.

I am not, nor will I ever be a professional artist. I don't think I will have the time or desire to dedicate myself to that extent to be honest. This doesn't mean I don't have the talent or imagination, just that I won't have the skill.

I do think it is important though to understand that people use the word talent as a complement, and I don't understand where the resentment comes from in that regard. It takes a marriage of skills from hard work, and the vision to fuel those skills. That is why so few can really make a living at being an artist. And that is why art is one of the few professions which requires both to such a large extent.

This is a very interesting topic to say the least, and I am glad I stumbled onto it.

Irate

[Goo]

Originally posted by Jens


Mayby only the physical factors influence your capability to draw.



maybe, but i've seen a guy without hands paint....and his painting roxx.....

[antisleeper]

oo great post. here is my view (i am a foolish 17 year old art student)

ever since i have know i have always wanted to create things that appealed to be visualy. i never cared much for the final product i just enjoyed making things or changining things so they looked how i wanted. this progressed into painting where i enjoyed making things different while wanting them to look real to a certain extent. now days i like to make images that say something i guess this is down to the fact i have never been good at writing or expressing my ideas in anyother way.
so what does this mean? well i guess my passion for "art" has been the reason i have always been working and working to get "better" prehaps this is my talent? my constent search to create what i want to see. but is this so called talent based on the fact that i might be "good" at art. probaly not i just have the most passion for it. when i was 15 i was given the choice to take what ever route i wanted as i was lucky to be fairly good at all my school subjects so what made my select the "art" path. well i guess i felt at the time i was some how talented, this was probaly a mix of my childish toughts and my teachers/parents praise.

anyway i will finish up this ramble

to me my talent comes down to two things. 1. my ability to comit to becoming better at what i enjoy 2. my obsession of viewing and recording what i see and what i think

so after all this can i draw? well not really. but could i be taught to draw. with time probaly yes :)

[antisleeper]

that was my longest forum post ever!

[Max4d]

Hey

I must say that this is a very interseting thread and a thing that has been filling my mind too for a while. I think the answer lies in a mix of talent and education. I will explain why this is the case.

Talent is not the born ability to draw but rather to be creative, to see if colors clash or go in harmony. To reckonize if patterns are usefull, were the light should be and if the composition is effecitive. These things can be learned but a talent will see this without the education. He or she will know if something is wrong without looking it op in an artbook. The talent will know if something is wrong with the shading, the line and other stuff. The talent has a way of creating things by using it’s creativity.
Then there is the education, the rules, the reasearch of many people before us. How the lightning should look loike, what composition fits best in what style. Stuff like that.

The good thing about talent is, is that you learn much faster. See things easier, better and faster. You can handle the pencil in a natural way, without being told. You see it, can’t explain it, but see it. But talent will not make you Davinci. It just helps you with the practise.

The practise and therefore education is the magic part. There you will study things of art, learn the rules and practise, practise, practise and you will see your skills rise. Tose that have true talent will make much more progress than the one without. That is a fact that cannot be denied.

But every person is like a raw rock that has to find it’s true destiny. It has to be shaped in what the rock want’s to be. Therefore, determination is a very important part in art, without determination, even the most talented will not make it.

About natural talent, I don’t know if it excists. I think that every form of talent is natural, but nowbody can make a Davinci in mere months. You’ll have to learn, experiment and expand your scope. It will take years before you reach masterhood and even then you learn day by day. Never give up, there is nothing as rewarding as art in my opinion. I have seen some incredible things thad made many people sad because they realized they were lazy. Very lazy. I, on the other hand, get determened to beat the other and show them I am the better artist. That should be the way. Believe in yourself. I just read a book by Anold Schwarzenegger( yes, the bodybuilder) and maybe it has nothing to do with art, but his mind is beautifull. He was so determined that he could do everything. He learned of many mistakes and everytime he saw somebody better than him, he would beat him, how many years it took, he didn’t care. He would beat him. So should you guys think. Don’t cry, but fight. Show what you’ve got. Tose that wish to work at Blizzard, Squaresoft or anywere else like Disney, will have to fight. It won’t be easy and the competition will be ruthless, showing you a preview of there bad art( which looks ok to you) and then hitting you with the best they got, knocking you of your feat and getting the job you wanted. JUST FIGHT.

So stop whining about talent or education. First find yourself, then the stuff you need to improve on and show that you are greatest artist there has ever lived in this world and that you will be the subject once of a heated thread :D:D:D

Greetz Max4d

[Avetice]

mad4 can i hire you as a motivational speaker? :D

[face]

do you all think the same applies to acting?

[face]

what about fame? does it happen to some celebrities by accident, or was it something that all famous people wanted to achieve, no matter how grounded or dignified they appear?

[Tedsuo]

Fame and talent are two completely seperate entities. I think there are more than enough cases of one without the other, both directions.