Character of the Week Discussion Thread - Archived

[Form]

Oregano will be running this thread... ill give it over to him.


Oblio Update: umm.. i'll see about this too. thx

[S.C. Watson]

(Takes mike from form, winces >:| at feedback and clears throat nervously) :tihi:

Thanks man.

Okay, what I wanted to do is to give everyone a chance to start kicking ideas around about what they wanted, hoped for, expected from the CHOW.

*My* thoughts, for what they're worth, were to focus on the character aspect of this - regardless of species, except in instances where that was specifically required by the description. I've shared my thoughts on this with a couple of you, so bear with me, please. For example, what I'm thinking is something like this (for individual weeks):

An aristocrat
An Alien Banker
Teela Brown (from Lary Niven's Ringworld - Description would be provided).
A Garbage Collector
An orc captain
Redesign young Anakin Skywalker
etc.

So you'll know if it's supposed to be human or not, or if it's open based on the description. Another thought is to back off slightly on the artist provided description, and include that as part of the CHOW brief. My thought is that these are characters, and we'll need to know something about them in order to really illustrate them and bring their personality out - but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well.

As with the COW, background imagery won't be necessary, but definately is welcome.

In the mean time, let's open it up and see what you people are thinking!

Cheers,
~Oreg.

[Blue]

Honestly, I really don't want to see "redesign superman" type things. I want to see things more like in COW with themes like "Ultimate stand off" or "Broken spirit". Something where we are not just doing grunt work or fanboy crap. I want to do a few characters with the same challenging aspect in COW.

Here are a few suggestions for themes i would have.

Lost hope
Breaking free
Victory
Perfect tranquility
Evenly matched
Death
rebirth
Royal Guard
Dark assasin

etc etc

[brokk]

I think its a great idea, having descriptive topics can be a good drill excersise, and also having room for variety in entries.
Also the possibility of making very human-like concepts but also humanoid characters like ogres, trolls, lizardmen, etc.
Charachter redesings also sounds great.

I want to see things more like in COW with themes like "Ultimate stand off" or "Broken spirit".
hahaha... ; P

EDIT: the cow round 22 had a description to follow, the evil supply creature. That was a good experience, maybe the descriptions for the chow briefs could be somewhat along those lines, specifying what is needed.

For (rough) example:
Night Explorer: Our first person fantasy themed game needs a Night Explorer non player charachter. The main charachter encounters him/her in one of the forest stages. He/she needs to have design elements to relate him/her both to a forest setting and also a nocturne adventurer. We need this charachter to be really unique, please avoid the dark-elf design archetype as much as possible.

[S.C. Watson]

Lost hope
Breaking free
Victory
Perfect tranquility
Evenly matched
Death
rebirth

etc etc

My only reservation with this is that those aren't characters. They're random words taken out of context that could really mean anything...

[Blue]

Well those are meant to create something evocative, minus the last two.

[S.C. Watson]

I don't have a problem with them, if we can tie them directly to a character of some sort - which is why I was thinking going more descriptive in the CHOW brief than just a word or two.

[Blue]

Sounds like a plan to me. :)

[Form]

id say you need to get really specific on the proportion of your critical weighting - abstract elements like the personality/traits design vs. the construct elements such as costuming, props, and of course critical framework of technical ability. Just some thoughts as to what directions need some solidifying.

[arghmisfit]

it would be nice to alternate from discription provided to open for imagination every round.

[Dusty]

My only reservation with this is that those aren't characters. They're random words taken out of context that could really mean anything...

I agree...those aren't bad some of the time (and stuff like Dark Assassin is perfect, I think), but to be honest I am not really interested in the COW this week, because "Massive Black" just doesn't really inspire me for any creatures. If it where "Massive Black Forest Creature", I might be more inclined since it narrows it down a bit. Yes I realize what "Massive Black" is, and there was a reason it was chosen as the topic this week, but I still think its just left far too open. I have enjoyed the "Freestyle" COW the least out of all of them that I have entered so far...just because there isn't much focus.

I agree that fanwanky stuff can get kind of old. I mean how many times is someone gonna redesign Optimus Prime or Heman, you know? I'd like it to be more like COW, where you are creating your own character each time....just as you are doing with the creatures.

Some ideas from me would be:

Chubby Milkman
Seedy Merchant
Flower Lover
Ancient Astronaut
Angry Teddybear
Rocketman
Psychic Vampire
Cuddly Satan


I dunno.....just some ideas.
Some of those are silly, but I would like to see some silly topics mixed in with the serious ones as well.

-Dusty

[Shamagim]

IMO, the right proccedure is to base each character by a function and a secondary modifyer, mostly the same most people already stated. Adstract elements whould come from each piece according to the artist´s opinion about bouth function and the modifyer.

That way you get more possibilityes for unique pieces or different point of views of any given function.

Now the secondary modifyers is just to narrow the idea a little so the final pics wont looks way different from each other, making the choice of each winning pic easyer.

Examples of this were already made, like dark assasin, but in my opinion it would be nice if that modifyer wasnt a direct one, like for example the race or direct phisical appearance, for example " Elf King".....instead we could use: "fire monarch", being fire a more " free to interpretation concept", and monarch a wider function ( it could be a king, a lord, a wizard).

Mostly the modifyer sets the theme and conditions, ( tribal, dark/ hasty, drunk) and the function shows your point of view, for example some might reepresent an assasin as a quiet artist, some as a murderer bastard, some could just make it look like a regular office job :), or some could show a different perspective of what assasin means in society, for example a guy who works in a pig slauther house ( all made as original as they can be made of cource).

Well thats all i got for now, hope it helps

[rick_hershey]

Well I vote for a full description-

I don't think a topic like "Lizardman Necromancer" is restricting at all. In fact i might even go a little further and describe some of his personality or key items.

Ex: Lizardman Necromancer is considered crazy by other lizardfolk, spends most of his time as a hermit in the swamps. It wields a staff with a Jem on top, and a blade on the other end.

It's a shitty example, but I think it gives lots of room for creativity and freedom. It's being given a set of peremeters and pushing those boundaries as far as possible without breaking them. That is what i think would work well, especially seeing several artists tackle the same description.

The DSG already covers characters with simple name like "robot defender", i think we should push for something more then that.

[Form]

rick hershey: in some respects i agree with you. COW and EOW will be run quite broadly and open to interpretation. Perhaps CHoW being run as a more specific brief would be a good idea??

HOwever i think over-describing the character might not be the way to go. Seeing as around 30 contenders will be here each round, its going to be pretty boring to look at 30 different takes on a lizard guy with a specific weapon etc.

WHat i would suggets is a contextual brief, FOR INSTANCE:

Topic: The Lizardman

This character is a member of a jungle tribe, and a member of the priesthood. This character holds a fair amount of authority and has a lot of presence in public, and as such must be dressed according to ceremonial ritual. The temple he is a member of is the Temple del Sol - Temple of the Sun. His design must reflect his affinity with the bringer of life, the giver of light. He should be armed, but not heavily.

This way you are describing all the parameters that the character must fit into - and there is room to work within that framework, whilst they are quite strict guidelines. It just saves giving to oheavy an indication of the characters appearance and will lead to more variation and interest in the topics. Thoughts?

[arghmisfit]

yeah, what form said :^^:

[rick_hershey]

I agree with you Form- that's more of what I wanted to be saying, but I suck

I vote for that!

[Shamagim]

I personally disagree about pre-create the context, that might become to technical and then it would really be as you say, 20 shots of the same lizard man. i would very much like to assemble the context myself if i were to participate.


And as i said before, to say "lizard man", "elf", "orc", "satir", etc is to close the possibilityes to much, and i think it would be to much like DSG characters...if not the same, with the only difference that you have more time to make it.

Inbterpreting wider concepts and creating contexts is fun....at least for me it is.

Well thats my opinion :)

[S.C. Watson]

Form, I really like your contextual setting - that is almost exactly what I have in mind and was proposing in my first post. Providing an occaisonal specific detail like Rick's jem topped bladed staff won't hurt either.

Of the character based CCG's that I've done, this is the type of stuff you get - it's contextual except in cases where the description has to be speific for whatever reason.

That's the format that I'd like to go with.

I agree with Dusty about avoiding the fanwanky stuff - though occaisionaly I'd like to throw a book character in just for git's and shiggles :P Oh, it'd be fun, admit it :teeth: But I don't want that to be the main theme throughout this.

Something else to think about, since this is character driven, I don't have a problem with names for the characters as part of the description. For example:

Lord Charles Hemstreet, Admiral of The Imperial Fleet. Tall man, with a cold bearing, although warm to his friends. He has spent a life on board ships, starting as a ship's boy, and rising through the ranks to eventually become Admiral. Commands the Flagship Hope. He is missing his left arm.

Another one could be:

Paddy Joyce - Potato famine survivor.

Not every description has to be dead on specific, and not every one has be terribly vague - I think the idea here is to get enough of an idea about *who* the character is to come up with a picture. So long as we can build a picture of the person, or what they do in our minds eye, I think we'll be okay.

Cheers,
~Oreg.

[OLSEN]

Looking forward to this.. I'm sure it'll be lots of fun. :)

I'd love it if we were given a fairly detailed description for each character.. pretty much as Form did with the lizardman. I don't think it's limiting at all, and I don't think we would see 20 shots of the same character... i know that if I had the time and were paid well enough I could 20 different very different characters from that description, and then I would still not have covered all different possibilites.

A rule I'd like to see too is that the character must be a full figure. With full figure I mean it must include hands, arms, legs, feets, and so on. If the focus is the character I expect to see all if it..

[S.C. Watson]

A rule I'd like to see too is that the character must be a full figure. With full figure I mean it must include hands, arms, legs, feets, and so on. If the focus is the character I expect to see all if it..

Thank you OLSEN - that was something I wanted to touch on.

For a visual reference, here's some examples of what I have in mind from a couple of better knowns:
Sweet 1 (http://www.justinsweet.com/GALLERY/CONCEPTS/HTML/001_SOLDIEp1.html)
Sweet 3 (http://www.justinsweet.com/GALLERY/CONCEPTS/HTML/003_ALLX.html)
Komarck 1 (http://www.komarckart.com/archive01.html)
Komarck 2 (http://www.komarckart.com/archive04.html)
Lockwood 1 (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/02/drizzt.shtml)
Lockwood 2 (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/magazines/01/not_byzantine.shtml)
Most of those have backgrounds, but I want to stipulate that the background is not necessary. For our purposes, any of these characters sans background would be acceptable.

That said, the above images should give a visual clue on what we're looking for.

[Saise]

So what? I Love the Idea of the CHOW, it will be next nice CA Activity, and the concept of this little competition is very good. Byt i disagree with idea of 'remodeling' characters that already exist - like 'Create new Batman' or 'New Anakin'. It will be better imho if the CHOW use for the topic things like you said before... something like 'Alien Banker' or 'Orc Milkman' :perv: So, I love the CHOW idea. When we Start? :D

Some Topic Ideas:
- Alien Intelligent Race Chaplain
- Crazy Steampunk Inventor
- Ogre Surgeon
- Lesser Super Hero (Like Six'-o'-Pack or Gluemaster ;3 )
- Demonic Vindicator (Demonic Tenant)
- Postnuclear Soldier
- Alien Plumber

[shadoman]

Shane,

Thanks for putting this on. I'll be down in about 2 weeks or so (other commitments and weddings first).

Here are some suggestions (if anything was already mentioned, I apologize):
- Carnival Freak
- Firestarter
- Vampire Lord
- Possessed Child
- Wasteland Bounty Hunter
- Escaped Mental Patient
- Father-of-the-Year
- Drunken Master

My brain hurts, so more later.

[rick_hershey]

I think this is coming along great Oregano- examples you provided really fit what I'd like to do. As an illustrator I guess I'm used to some form of description when it comes to characters, and I like trying to fight withen that mold.

If members really push the concepts and designs of these pics, i don't really think we'll see a lot of the same designs. I can draw an orc barbarian 1,000 different ways. That's the challenge.

The full figure has to be a rule- drawing busts or half figures is just wrong.

[S.C. Watson]

I think this is coming along great Oregano- examples you provided really fit what I'd like to do. As an illustrator I guess I'm used to some form of description when it comes to characters, and I like trying to fight withen that mold.

If members really push the concepts and designs of these pics, i don't really think we'll see a lot of the same designs. I can draw an orc barbarian 1,000 different ways. That's the challenge.

The full figure has to be a rule- drawing busts or half figures is just wrong.

Hey Rick,

Thanks :wink:

I pretty well agree about the full figure rule, but the more I think about it, I'm not going to disqualify someone for doing only a half figure. Take Todd's Not So Byzantine (http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/magazines/01/not_byzantine.shtml) picture for example. It's awesomely rendered (the print is even better :wink: ) *and* some folks may be up against a time issue as well.

However, I will get stinky if someone only submits a bust - that's a no-no for this. I think stipulating something like at least 3/4's of the figure, including head, must be seen in order to qualify for the vote.

Howzat?

~Oreg.

[abediah]

maybe it could be a weekly type requirement? say one week the subject requires that certain limbs take importance over others, and in some cases it doesnt, such as...
-the messenger boy that uses mechanicly enhanced legs. or a king whose headwear is the most talked about accessory of the far reaches of his empire.
something like that?

[Shamagim]

The rules are fair so far, and i think you already have the theme equation ready and most of the rules would be the same as the other community activitys i guess ( such as: "dont go nuts with the size", " certain skill level required", etc)

This activity could start like C.O.W did, trying to find a coincidence between the first theme and the name "Chow"
I think is a synonym for feline or cat, theres also a race of dogs named Chow Chow and is a slang term for food....


When could this activity start? i love the idea ( and i was kinda waiting for it XD)

[S.C. Watson]

Shamagim I've already got the first CHOW character selected and am in the process of refining it some. No. You can't have a peek :P

We'll actually start on the 22nd, which is this coming Saturday. So be ready! And, for the most part, the general guidelines will be the same, though there will be a few new activity specific guidelines added.

abediah Not a bad idea, though I don't think it would work well with the character of the CHOW activity (pardon the pun). We'll have *all* kinds of interesting characters marching past us in the coming weeks - so don't worry. But what will be the most interesting is how people interpet the character descriptions!

[Form]

just pointing out to all that the 'fan' characters i think oregano was implying we do were from BOOKS, hence, have no visual design thus far - just using the books to give us a textual stimulii. I will be doing something similar for EOW soon... a sponsor round... very exciting!

[BrainBug]

though there will be a few new activity specific guidelines added.

like??

it has to be humanoid and/or wair clothes/weapons

[S.C. Watson]

like??
Like I'll post a working list in the next day or so :P

[scumgrinder]

this strikes me as squares' rpgs. you get this false sense of freedom but you are still playing on rails. can't it be a little bit more like the cow? i mean a name and few set rules? sounds pretty boring otherwise

[Dusty]

Honestly I think you should just do a mix of all the ideas in this thread. Make some like "Dark Assassin", make some like "Perfect Tranquility" and let the artist decide if that subject style interests them for that week. Seems like its getting a bit too overdiscussed just to find out "The Rules".

Make a topic...I'll draw it :D

-Dusty

[S.C. Watson]

That's pretty much what I'm going to do.

We'll start Saturday after the Forum has been set up. I'd like to have an "official" home for the activity before we get going - and the other thing is that I don't currently have any permission to set up threads or forums in this section.

It'll be good. I'm not worried about it.

Cheers,
~Oreg.

[Orcatraz]

I really like the direction you are taking this Oregano, the Justin Sweet examples are exactly what I was hoping to see out of this, and your sample topics are great, just the right balance between guidance and freedom IMO.

EDIT: Great ideas Mike.

[Undefeated]

I think Oregano's vision of this is pretty much spot-on. I hope thats the format we go with. I also like Mike's suggestions. This is going to be a great excercise if the focus is more "give the client exactly what he wants" and less "interpret this any way you like".

Looking forward to it!

[Teigrob]

I agree with Mike. Having done character design to specific client instructions, I think this is invaluable to those trying to get into the industry. When you're working for somebody, you don't have unlimited freedom. You want that? Make your own game! The sooner you can meet client's expectations *and* exceed them, the better, imho. This will also be good training for those of us who have thin skins when it comes to our art. When you're doing work for clients, they don't care what YOU think is cool, they want what THEY want...and what you've provided is not *quite* it...could you do it over please? :tihi: Get used to it...or start your own game/mod/movie whatever and give up any idea of working for somebody else, 'cause you'll hate it.

[scumgrinder]

While i am all for real life emulation activities, i wish that was a different activity and not this one.
The idea seems appliable not only to character but also creature, environment and industrial design. In any case it's starting to sound very close to the a&d section except maybe for the quality expected from the entries.

[Xpose]

I can't wait to try this out. Should be good and hopefully will draw more members to the community activities all together.

-peace

[rick_hershey]

i'm sure this might piss some people off, but a part of me wishes all these activities had more guidlines and descriptions.

We have a post your creature thread, a post you environment thread, what makes these different then the activities here? I think if CA is going to have community activities then they should be atleast learning activities and offer more of a real world comparison.

But I do like the activities we have as is, I personally am wanting something more. . .

[Aly Fell]

I didn't notice this thread before, but I'd definitely be up for at least entering CHOW as often as I can, if you're given free rein to exercise your imagination. And not always making it deadly serious. Ie, Dusty's suggestions are fab!

Chubby Milkman
Seedy Merchant
Flower Lover
Ancient Astronaut
Angry Teddybear
Rocketman
Psychic Vampire
Cuddly Satan

These really get my imagination going more than 'orc lord' or 'elf king' or something... I appreciate the links Oregano gives, but they are all fantasy characters, and if this is going to have relevance to concept art in general, you aren't always going to be asked to design a warrior lord or something. More than often it's going to be the incidental characters that flesh out a world... and they can be just as exciting, and set in a real world! :)

[duddlebug]

I agree that fanwanky stuff can get kind of old. I mean how many times is someone gonna redesign Optimus Prime or Heman, you know? I'd like it to be more like COW, where you are creating your own character each time....just as you are doing with the creatures.

Some ideas from me would be:

Chubby Milkman
Seedy Merchant
Flower Lover
Ancient Astronaut
Angry Teddybear
Rocketman
Psychic Vampire
Cuddly Satan


I dunno.....just some ideas.
Some of those are silly, but I would like to see some silly topics mixed in with the serious ones as well.

These are fantastic ideas! I want to join in and draw half of them now!! Almost all of them get my juices flowing!!

From skimming through this thread i think there seems to be a big shout towards variation. but that's kinda balanced by people calling for tight descriptions. For what it's worth, I personally think the brief should vary each week from tight character descriptions to open descriptions such as Dusty's to even more open single words perhaps.

I think if every week is too tight, the you'll put some people off entering. And i take the point that professionals often have to follow very restrictive briefs, but on the flipside, they sometimes get completely open briefs. It'll be a great challenge if one week you have to draw the admiral that oregano described and stick tightly to the words, and then the next week you can interpret 'Cuddly Satan' or 'Chubby Teddybear'. It's up to the artist to inject character. With whatever description they've got... whether it's one word or one hundred words. The winner each week should be the person who injects the most character inot whatever material they're given! And i think a variation in the length and specifics of the descriptions will attract more people to the activity.

A variation in the subject matter will also make the activity more fun and generate more interesting results.

And how about a mascot for the first week..?

I'm dead excited about this!!

:x

eDit: any kind of 'fan art' would be a big turn off... and, in my view, kinda pointless in a 'concept' thread. Unless it's a character from a book where there aren't any established visuals... 'Lyra' from 'His Dark Materials' for instance.

[rick_hershey]

-can you deliver the design specified but still push the boundaries of creativity without breaking the basic brief? - mike

that to me is is the challenge and the fun, that makes me produce the most creative work I can

I do like the idea of mixing it up with topics like
Chubby Milkman
Seedy Merchant
Flower Lover

I think those type of topics would be a great mixer with the more detailed briefs.
I just don't want to see every topic a random word thrown out to us.

[purb36]

variation sounds good, but in moderation. ;)

anyway, things are probably mostly decided by now, so somebody start up the trash talk and lets get this party started!

:ac: :ah: :ao: :aw: :a!: :ac: :ah: :ao: :aw: :a!: :cheerleader:

[talmir]

Just want to throw in an idea... How about doing concepts for stories.. there are many short stories on the net, including hp. lovecraft.. how about linking to a story, and its the "Character concept" of the week? That way it is narrowed down sufficiently for some and its open enough for others :)

[dogfood]

I might be mincing words, but even more than fleshing out a figure with clothing and gear, it seems critical to deliver the character and not just what the person looks like. When I first read the title, that's what I was thinking. Now, certainly, it's critical to bring across a great design with engaging lines, forms, and colors, but it's also important to be able to deliver the character's thoughts and feelings. Now, this isn't something that should be done every week; that's the thing about these "of the Week" subjects, they can really be varied to keep interest high; but if it's simply "stoic milkmaid assassin", "stoic Scottish rodeo clown", or "stoic orcish ballarina", it seems like we'll be missing a large part of character generation and one of the key points in actual illustration (telling a story).

Something like:
It's 2005 as seen from 1950 and your milkman has just realized how he can take over the world and dominate all of makind.

Commodore Billipickfinster has just been ordered to take his Airship fleet and use their atomics to sterilize the Koochi-koochi invasion... by destroying his home city, where his family is trapped.

I'm really looking forward to this activity (and of course, I'll be out of town for the first two weeks).

Edit: Thank goodness Shane was advertising this in his signature! Or I'd have missed it for a while.

[Aly Fell]

Dogfood - I agree. Character is an often misused expression. What this is about is a 'model' sheet. Character is what lies underneath the image. A model sheet can gives clues to the underlying character using accessories and clothing, but a character comes accross in expression and intent, which, when designing for an Animated movie for example, would be on a secondary sheet or image showing those expressions and maybe using some dynamic posing as well. I think what the CHOW will be is a 'snapshot' of the character, because if all we have to do is produce what amounts to little more than one pose in a turnaround sheet then it won't be very exciting... wibble...

[look]

Are you going to start off with a CHOW mascot?

[S.C. Watson]

Look Yes, the first round is the mascot round :teeth:

Genreal notes - PLEASE READ

Dogfood pretty well nailed it. The focus of this activity is the Character. To put it another way, it is a Character driven activity. Who *are* they? Think of this as a character study. We're not going to be doing generic characters, though a John or Jane Q. Public type character is a possibility. How interesting can you make a someone who is fundamentally non-descript?

The provided descriptions will be there to help you do this - often in coming up with a character, it's the little things that help us understand them - their totems and clothes and hair style, but also, their expression - all of these little visual cues that we get that help bring across who this person/individual/thing is. Look at some of Matt Dixon's stuff here (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=50715) and here (http://www.mattdixon.co.uk/) - Matt is a superb character artist - you really get to know the individual he conveys, plus there's often a story involved with his peices that helps describe the characters. Often, these are very simple and easy to follow, but they get the point across immediately. (And somebody give that bloke a heads up about this activity :D )

Looking at Marko's stuff is another good option for the same reason. You pick up who these people are. His stuff is here (http://www.degenesis.de/data_galerie1.html) and here (http://www.parasyticmoon.com/dissonance/game/characters/).

Exactly *how* you get the character across is up to you. If you want to do a full portrait, that's fine. If you want to do a character sheet, that's fine too. But, the character is more than the stuff and clothes, as Dogfood said. The previously provided examples of Sweets' work, Komarcks' work, and Lockwoods' were shown as suggestions on how to present your character. Nothing more.

It's the characters' stance. Their facial expression. The emotion that they convey. It's not so much *what* they wear, but *how* they wear it.

THERE WILL BE *NO* FAN ART. FAN ART WILL BE PRINTED AND BURNED IN EFFIGY. Frankly, I don't know about you, but I hate fan art. If we do a character redesign (note the "if") it sure as hell won't be presented as fan art. I had suggested young Anakin because to me, the young Anakin character did not work within the context of the Star Wars universe. But that's another story.

Incidently, Lyra, from 'His Dark Materials' is a very real possibility.

ON CHARACTER DESCRIPTIONS There is no hard and set rule here. I've noted this in an earlier post but figured that there's enough of a concern to go over it again.

Character descriptions will vary greatly. They will at times be in depth. They will at times be very much like what Dogfood presented, including a little bit of back story. And, they will at times be very, very brief. So expect the range to go something like this:


EXAMPLE 1: The Lizardman. This character is a member of a jungle tribe, and a member of the priesthood. This character holds a fair amount of authority and has a lot of presence in public, and as such must be dressed according to ceremonial ritual. The temple he is a member of is the Temple del Sol - Temple of the Sun. His design must reflect his affinity with the bringer of life, the giver of light. He should be armed, but not heavily.
EXAMPLE 2:Commodore Billipickfinster has just been ordered to take his Airship fleet and use their atomics to sterilize the Koochi-koochi invasion... by destroying his home city, where his family is trapped.
EXAMPLE 3:Angry Teddybear


In presenting your ideas, anything that gets the sense of a *character* across, stands a good chance of being used. The more characterized, the more personality you pick up from the description, regardless of how many words you use, the better.

So, at this point, that all pretty well covers what we're looking at. If it doesn't entirely fit your conception of the activity, I apologize. I do want to reflect what we'd run into in the "Real World", but I also want us to have fun with this.

Remember, Character Descriptions are there as guides. Even with a tight description, you've got a lot of leeway. So long as your illustration hits the main points, you'll be good to go. The trick is learning how to identify those main points, and being able to discern what you can take artisitic liscense with.

Cheers,
~Oreg.

[strych9ine]

This sounds completely friggin awesome. Right up my alley. Might even be right up my back alley, that's how much I like it.

[Groover McNab]

Cool. Can't wait to see this get started.

[JonnyAwesome]

Excitement cannot be contained. Holy Moly.

[Teigrob]

EX-cellant. Can't wait to start! :teeth: :bounce:

[S.C. Watson]

Excitement cannot be contained. Holy Moly.

You


have


no


idea


>:D

[rick_hershey]

sounds great, I should of had a little more faith in Oregano-

[Johann de Venecia]

Woot! Oregano has a baby~! Can't wait to sample this new CA delicacy. chompchompchompchomp ...tastes like cody's backalley...

[Lake]

heh, ok, I'm ready to get my ass whupped.

[Xpose]

Yea alot of Marko's stuff comes up as x's now but check here

http://www.parasyticmoon.com/dissonance/game/characters/ (lots of his stuff on there)

[Dusty]

Sounds great...I like the mix up of topic styles. It will be hard to choose some weeks between COW and CHOW :D

-Dusty

[S.C. Watson]

Yea alot of Marko's stuff comes up as x's now but check here

http://www.parasyticmoon.com/dissonance/game/characters/ (lots of his stuff on there)
Perfect. Thanks Xpose. Added it to the post above :teeth:

[J.Willis]

This sounds like something I would like even though an amobea with a pencil draws better than me. But I'm up for learning and improving with some "real world" simulation thrown into the mix.

Thanks for taking the initative, Oregano.

[PaulGanguly]

I dicussed some issues and ideas with paul when he presented the idea to me. I don't have the time to read everything that was written here, but I just thought I would post a few of the ideas/thoughts I had when discussing this with paul on IRC.

I think that gearing the activity toward real world projects would be ideal. What I mean by that is, set the activity topics up to be directed toward perhaps a movie or a game or a commercial or novel or short story etc.

If it were designed to provide a "brief" often given by clients when dealing with projects on a large scale, so that the artist can take the brief and perhaps work out some sketches and ideas on thier own. If it were possible to use this activity to train peoples thought process, to push thier creativity but set limitations as there are often restrictions when designing for cg models for low poly models, games, movies, high poly models, etc.

Perhaps one week we would be designing a low poly model so people would have to keep in mind that the design had to be low key, as simple as possible without too many curves or jutting details so that it would work when modeled by the cg modeling department.

Perhaps another week you would be asked to design a creature; character sheet; front, side, back view of the design so that people could work on making the design work from all angles as well as get them ready for the real world of concepting where model sheets are a part of this industry.

Another week you might be asked to design a character geared toward a realistic future set only 100 years in the future but to have the character put in a specific action pose.

Each of these ideas could be back up with a short story or some references, photos, examples etc.

This activity would get people ready for the real world of being a concept artist and could focus more on "concept art" but it could still pose as special "illustration" weeks where we would design a character based in an environment interacting with thier habitat.

Just some thoughts.

Exactly.

The idea that we were discussing mainly focused on the fact that there doesn't presently exist a template of what a "real life" character brief looks like, and I for one don't really know how a believable, viable character get's made. I know that more important than the design is the context into which the character is placed. And moreso, the world in which a character exists gives more life and believability to that character, which is why I have to very seriously request that this new exercise NOT resemble the open-ended, abstract nature of the existing COW, EOW, and IDM activities. I for one have a hard time taking two arbitrary and abstract words and creating from them something with form and believability.

Dogfood pretty well nailed it here - I might be mincing words, but even more than fleshing out a figure with clothing and gear, it seems critical to deliver the character and not just what the person looks like. When I first read the title, that's what I was thinking. Now, certainly, it's critical to bring across a great design with engaging lines, forms, and colors, but it's also important to be able to deliver the character's thoughts and feelings. Now, this isn't something that should be done every week; that's the thing about these "of the Week" subjects, they can really be varied to keep interest high; but if it's simply "stoic milkmaid assassin", "stoic Scottish rodeo clown", or "stoic orcish ballarina", it seems like we'll be missing a large part of character generation and one of the key points in actual illustration (telling a story).Armor and flowing robes do not make a character. Character makes a character. And context, and purpose make them come to life, if only as a slightly more refined archetype.

Anyway, I'll definitely be looking forward to this activity, and I hope it cascades into something really big.

-Paul

[sone_one]

i cant wait for the first topic!... sometimes 2 days are freaking long :/

[Xpose]

Perfect. Thanks Xpose. Added it to the post above :teeth:

np dude... can't wait to see what comes out of this =]

[S.C. Watson]

Okay, in case you had not noticed: The first round of CHOW is on! (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54721)

~Oreg.

[Waffle_King]

I'm excited to see where this goes. I say the best way to determine what we want is to jump in and get started.

-Andrew

[neoknocker]

This is one great initiative. Really motivating. I LOVE THIS SO MUCH!!!! :bashful:

[camus]

Hey guys, I feel a little out of place posting this, I know I have not made a single entry to a COW/CHOW, but I've been watching every single one of em, been making a gallery of all my favorites, and I study them closely.

I'm scared shitless of posting here but I really think I've got something to say =)

I love the fact there is finally a CHOW, the idea of being able to get into a character's mind and express it trough an image is very tempting. There are many great entries in CHOW that I already consider classics, but I got a few ideas about the ideal structure of the brief.

I understand the "train em for real life" aproach that was taken, but I belive the CHOW lost something in the process, Ambiguity. I think ambiguity and room for interpretation is necesary for each artist to have real insight into the character's mind, so that there can be a truly character driven activity.

The current briefs focus too much on giving intricate detail of exactly what these characters are like now, I specially disagree and very specifical visual descriptions of them (body shape), and most of all specific items they should be carrying (yeah...talking about the katana), since these characteristics will have to be drawn the same way in every single image, and will make for a very recurring image on all the entries, rid them of variety.

I belive it would be much more fun to have a brief that focuses on detailing their main influences in the past, their backstory, how they were brought up, what event in their life had a great impact in them, how that affected the way they decided to place themselves in the society they live in, and what stimulii gets them trough their every day life, so that then we are the ones who decide exactly how that should be expressed in visual refferences.

Look at Metal Gear Solid, a very character and story driven series, look at how one of the main characters came to be.
In the beggining Director Kojima gave Designer Shinkawa a brief where Otacon was going to be the sterotypic fat programmer with a chocolate bar, right out of jurassic park, but Shinkawa decided Otacon'd better be a skinny little geek, he fought and whinied until Kojima gave in and changed the character, now Otacon is one of the most important characters in the series, Snake's intimate friend and ever present backup.

shouldnt we be able to make decisions the way Shinkawa did with Otacon in MGS?

I understand the reasoning behind the current brief "prepare em for real life", but I dont see how drawing something with a set race, visual description, or a specific item they should be carrying helps us become character designers, feels more like illustration work to me.

this may (I got no idea) be the usual brief you get in actual jobs, but if we get used to think the way every run of the mill designer is supposed to think from now we'll become another one of them, I think we should have a more inspiring brief now, so that when we see a simpler brief we can see in our mind something deeper than what's given to us, instead of conforming to the usual fare we've always been dealing with.

I absolutely adore our queen, but it feels like she was the one dissident character, taking the corsair part of the brief to to the limits to give her a colonial wardrobe and then extend that to give an almost jestery tint to her design.Whereas all the others got limited by the urban part of the description and thus took a cyberpunk urban appeal.
That is not to say that was the only good entry, I love the essence of many others but I think they all could have been as dissident to the rest as the queen was if it wasnt for the restrictive visual refferences of the brief, much like it is in the COW.

[S.C. Watson]

camus You have some valid concerns, and these have already been addressed.

The artist can take what they want from the character brief. This is not hard and fast - redehlert did something entirely off brief and it was fantastic.

Character briefs are, in my experience, all over the map. Sometimes they are little more than just some basic descriptive words ("we need an angry employee at an office") other times they are very specific.

Typically, the depth of the description is going to be based on what type of character you are dealing with. Currently, we're playing around with more heroic, or primary characters - ones who the story would center around.

We will explore other aspects of characters as well, including secondary, triatary, and cannon fodder characters, as well as non-human.

The idea of a "Character" as an excercise such as this, is huge. In just the first few short weeks we've seen a huge variety of designs based on the same description. Personally, I don't see how this is limiting.

In doing these excercises, the idea is not to just throw out unrelated words to see what people come up with, but help people take a description and interpet it to the best of their ablity. Usually in such a case, this is going to require some research (as we saw with the first CHOW (Parkour), and now the third (Jules Verne) )

These excercises are not meant to be easy. They are for some, but they are also meant to be a challenge.

It's a trick question: How well can you match the description? But, at the same time, what kind of unique twist can you throw on it?

Your example of Director Kojima and Designer Shinkawa is *precisely* the type of initiative that I'm looking for. Match the description, but make it your own.

I think that you'll find that the descriptions are not meant to lock an artist down, but more to give them a direction to go. The rest is just vision.

So. With that in mind, how far can you see?

~Oreg.

[brokk]

Hi,
I was thinking if it were possible to have little chow stars like the cow llamas, maybe use the face of the winner of the first round, though I don't know how it would look like at that size.
Another thing is that the cow winner gallery features the entries there in a sort of frame, with the text below, maybe the entries in the winner gallery of chow could have a border or frame too.

[S.C. Watson]

Hi,
I was thinking if it were possible to have little chow stars like the cow llamas, maybe use the face of the winner of the first round, though I don't know how it would look like at that size.
Another thing is that the cow winner gallery features the entries there in a sort of frame, with the text below, maybe the entries in the winner gallery of chow could have a border or frame too.
Heya,

I'd love to hand out little stars and whatnots, but unfortunately I don't have admin powers - I *will* see what I can on that front though.

I will be developing a frame for the winners. I just need to settle on a design that works - and set aside the time to address it.

Cheers,
~Oreg.

[young paddy1]

What d'ya reckon are the chances of a four way with the other 'O.Ws ?

Like a coliseum for enviro, a war chariot for industrial, a gladiator for character and a thing for him/her to fight for creature.

Or a space station
shuttle craft
astronaut etc.
hive style alien thingy

:teeth:

[S.C. Watson]

Not a bad idea - and it's been talked about (at least with Form).

I think that if it does happen, it may be a while in the making, though...

[RobHughes]

I dicussed some issues and ideas with paul when he presented the idea to me. I don't have the time to read everything that was written here, but I just thought I would post a few of the ideas/thoughts I had when discussing this with paul on IRC.

I think that gearing the activity toward real world projects would be ideal. What I mean by that is, set the activity topics up to be directed toward perhaps a movie or a game or a commercial or novel or short story etc.

If it were designed to provide a "brief" often given by clients when dealing with projects on a large scale, so that the artist can take the brief and perhaps work out some sketches and ideas on thier own. If it were possible to use this activity to train peoples thought process, to push thier creativity but set limitations as there are often restrictions when designing for cg models for low poly models, games, movies, high poly models, etc.

Perhaps one week we would be designing a low poly model so people would have to keep in mind that the design had to be low key, as simple as possible without too many curves or jutting details so that it would work when modeled by the cg modeling department.

Perhaps another week you would be asked to design a creature; character sheet; front, side, back view of the design so that people could work on making the design work from all angles as well as get them ready for the real world of concepting where model sheets are a part of this industry.

Another week you might be asked to design a character geared toward a realistic future set only 100 years in the future but to have the character put in a specific action pose.

Each of these ideas could be back up with a short story or some references, photos, examples etc.

This activity would get people ready for the real world of being a concept artist and could focus more on "concept art" but it could still pose as special "illustration" weeks where we would design a character based in an environment interacting with thier habitat.

Just some thoughts.

Go with this. So much of the activity on Conceptart.org seems like pointless open ended self gratification, tying the weeklys to real world applications will give people portfolio pieces that might be of practical use.
Rob

[S.C. Watson]

Go with this. So much of the activity on Conceptart.org seems like pointless open ended self gratification, tying the weeklys to real world applications will give people portfolio pieces that might be of practical use.
Rob

Rob, (& Mike),

We will be definately moving in those directions in the next few weeks. Right now, CHOW is still new, and what I'm attempting to do is get people used to meeting deadlines first. Regardless of how good your portfolio is, it's ultimately useless if you can't meet the deadline with something that at least vaguely resembles the brief.

To this end, I'm keeping things fun, and a little open ended for the time being. But we're already starting to narrow things down - this last CHOW was set in the DEGENESIS world - quite a stretch for many of the poeple who had no idea what it was, and it was suggested that the media be graphite.

This week's CHOW is similiarly pointed, but in a different direction: we take a real world character in a rather bleak situation and throw a humorous spin on it.

The idea, or at least my idea here, is to get people used to dealing with characters and deadlines in the first, then move to a very specific structure requirement for the assignment. As we progress, more requirements will be added to each description.

I also understand that for some of the more seasoned artists, this may be a little slow and a little frustrating - for that I apologize. But as CHOW comes up to speed, we'll be seeing a wide variety of assignments coming up. I promise.

That said, as always, the artist is welcome to submit a character sheet, front, side and back view, if that is where their focus is. I would love to see some of that, truth be told.

Cheers,
~Oreg.

[Zergaloth]

I sometimes fear the good coloured ones always prevail over the black and white or graphite images. Maybe you should sometimes demand the image to be done in some medium, like graphite, watercolour, ink, ...
This way you might even give the more talented artists a challenge, by forcing them to use a medium they're not that familiar with. For the other artists, it's a great way of learning new material.

[S.C. Watson]

We just did that with the Degenesis round :\

I'll sometimes suggest mediums, but I'm not going to insist or disqualify work simply because it wasn't done in the suggested medium. Not all artists can work in graphite, or digital, or oils, or ink or whatever medium.

[Zergaloth]

Not all artists can work in graphite, or digital, or oils, or ink or whatever medium.

I know you suggested a medium in the DEGENESIS round, but I'd love to see you insist a certain medium is used. Not all artist can work in graphite, but might this not be an excellent challenge for them? Does it never happen that someone asks you to do an image in a medium that you don't use frequently?
It could be really interesting. We learn the medium, we learn from eachother's works, ...

[2medusa]

Oreg, following up on Broken’s post, have you made any headway re posting the CHOW mascot & little stars next to the CHOW winners’ avatars?

It would be nice to see their wins acknowledged by their avatars rather than having to search through Our Queen & Her Court.

Hey, maybe you can bribe Fozzybar to post them for you.

[S.C. Watson]

Does it never happen that someone asks you to do an image in a medium that you don't use frequently?
Um, actually, no. I've never had that happen. For myself, I can work in a number of mediums, ranging from digital (obviously) to oils, graphite, watercolor, acrylic and coloredpencil, not including pen and ink, and occaisionally ball point pen, so it's never been an issue with me.

To answer your question tho, in my experience, usually clients leave the medium up to the artist (well, I take that back, now that I think about it - there was one client who wanted a graphite drawing of their dog). But that was one, out of hundreds, if not thousands of illustrations I've done for people.

ALL OF THAT SAID, I don't have a problem with the basic idea of a medium requirement, but when presented, it will most likely always be presented as an option. The reason for this is because art supplies are expensive for folks, so if I insist that a CHOW be done in say oils, or acrylics, or even colored pencils, than people who don't have those mediums are going to have to shell out money for the activity, and I don't want that.

Cheers,
~Oreg.

[S.C. Watson]

Oreg, following up on Broken’s post, have you made any headway re posting the CHOW mascot & little stars next to the CHOW winners’ avatars?

It would be nice to see their wins acknowledged by their avatars rather than having to search through Our Queen & Her Court.

Hey, maybe you can bribe Fozzybar to post them for you.

I haven't made progress on this front at all at this point, and I apologize. With respect to our participants, it's an issue that is really not a high priority when stacked against paying my bills. I'm not trying to be harsh or anything, and I want to see it done, I just haven't leveraged the time for it yet. The simple, brutal turth is that client projects take priority.

If someone wants to approach Fozzy or Form or Davi about, they may certainly do so with my blessing. But let me know before hand so we can do a CHOW to design the icon :teeth:

Cheers,
~Oreg.

[Zergaloth]

Well, hey, you're right Oregano. I didn't really think about it that way. And after all, the whole deal about the CHOW isn't winning it.

[S.C. Watson]

Well, hey, you're right Oregano. I didn't really think about it that way. And after all, the whole deal about the CHOW isn't winning it.Winning may not be the whole dealy, but it certainly is an ego boost for those that do! :P

~O

[central]

hi read most of the posts here just want to add my two paise.

i think there is a stark difference between a DSG pic and a ChoW. I've always felt that the DSG is just a 'on the side' kinda thing while the ChoW requires a lot more thought and effort. to illustrate it better the difference is like playing soccer on saturday in the park and playing for your nation at the World Cup. One is done because you have the interest and the time and the other is done because you have something to prove about yourself (or in the case of playing for your nation that your country men as well believe you have something to), namely in the case of the ChoW, being able to put out a really different, 'wow now that's an incredible interpretation' picture on the topic. And as you can all see from the entries on the previous ChoWs there are some KICK-ASS artists taking time off to contribute which shows just how highly rated it is to them.

Iv been following most of the ChoW's and iv gotta say that the topics have been great especially the latest one 'battle angel', beers on me for that 1. i feel that if this topic 'battle angel' had been put in for a DSG no-one would have bothered to mention the extra juicy bit about having to come up with a totally different concept for the wings, that's exactly the difference im talking about, ChoWs really make you have to think 'outside the box'. So (this is all just my 2 paise not trying to piss anyone off) my idea of a topic for a DSG would be an orc milkman or something similar because its fun and dosent take up too much time so its perfect, but one that suits a ChoW would be a re-design or some such since it requires a lot more thought, time and effort.

Again didnt mean to step on anyone's toes (or maybe trample over the entire leg is more appropriate), hope i havent hurt anyone's sentiments who love DSGs, but to me the ChoW is one level higher and should always make sure that it stays that way, and the ONLY way to do that is to pick a GOOD (cant emphasis it enough) topic EVERYTIME. An eagle should never forget how to fly high. I also disagree with having fixed media, i'm sure for a lot of people that would be appealing but the fact remains that many others who would love to participate would be left out.

respect to camus, i support what he said about the topics being open-ended. there should be a good description though not enough to form a jail cell. I think the latest ChoW 'battle angel' is a true model for an openended yet 'directed' topic and i mean directed by the bit about having to design a new wing concept (which i cant say enough that i love).

I think iv apologised enough as well, bring on the hate if its still there. O and i havent posted a single pic yet on CA so if you think iv been talkin thru my a#$e you can blame it on that and sleep well tonite.
Thank you CA keep the ChoW ALIVE !!!!

[chaosrocks]

Do we have a problem with partial nudity?
I made an Egyptian lich, and then realized..it just came out that way ..it seemed right. But I won't post if thats a problem.
Thanks
Chaos

[S.C. Watson]

Do we have a problem with partial nudity?
I made an Egyptian lich, and then realized..it just came out that way ..it seemed right. But I won't post if thats a problem.
Thanks
Chaos

I don't see it as a problem. I think the main thing is to avoid anything overtly sexual, as in the act of, because there are people that will take offense at that.

Just use your discretion. From what you mentioned there, I don't think it would be a problem.

~Oreg.

[trevor]

have you thought about having a project winners thread like in COW?
or would that sap up too much of your time?
dont want you to lose your social life or anything (id die if i did nothing but work...actually im getting close to death right now)
just wondering

[Main Loop]

are the squares in the chow banner ever gonna be updated?

[S.C. Watson]

have you thought about having a project winners thread like in COW?
Actually, we do. The Queen and her Court thread, which is in some *serious* need of updating, which brings me to...

are the squares in the chow banner ever gonna be updated?

Yes. I'm horrible. I need to set aside time to do this stuff, and just haven't. Mia culpa, mia culpa!

Incidently, getting stars or whatevers to the winners is *still* up in the air. I have faith, tho!

~Oreg.

[Beelow]

where can I sign up at? I like this idea, of doing chow, this will also get me used to getting things done by deadline. I tend to have problems with overdrawing and overpainting this will be great practice!

[S.C. Watson]

where can I sign up at? I like this idea, of doing chow, this will also get me used to getting things done by deadline. I tend to have problems with overdrawing and overpainting this will be great practice!
No need to sign up. Just jump in!

~Oreg.

[Beelow]

Already started, big O, I hope to finish. thanx, for letting me know whas up!:yayca:

[masque]

a really big thanks to Oblio for updating the Queen's Court and stepping in to mod the ChOW activity -- much appreciated, amigo!

[chaosrocks]

I saw one of our Chow entries in a fancy slick Comp art Mag I was wondering if we could go back that far...Imaginary Friend" I believe was the catagory I had just started lurking. Can anyone tell me whose piece that was?

just curious
C.rocks

[neoknocker]

Have you noticed that their are less people participating now than a few month's back. In my opinion,and please note that it is A OPINION, their was quite a bit of regulars participating - for my part, time is a main factor, I dont have any - but some of the people who participated on a regular basis might not have had as much "experience" as some of the current participants and were, if I may say, "flushed" from the polls. Which makes me think that, even if their entries were not so great, compared to others, they took satisfaction in having them in this poll, knowing that they might not have votes. But the possibility of probably getting one vote, would have been enough. If you compare with the first chows, the entry page would sometime reach a few pages long. The latest one has... well... one. I'm sorry that it became less interesting to some and, call me nostalgic, I liked it better then. It is looking more like a thunderdome participation than an activity. I think it's sad.

In my opinion, it motivated people in drawing and gaining experience. And aren't we a community that is supposed to encourage people in doing and applying art? Even though it is suppose to be a simulation of our jobs in the future and that it is a harsh world. I dont think that this is encouraging people in participating in artistic events. There is not even a tangible prize. The sole prize they migh have wanted at the very least was probably to be exposed in the poll. Which was taken away. If someone takes something from you, do you trust them afterwards?

In my belief everyone participating as a right to be on the polls. I dont think that we have a right to moderate their participation, in these activities at least, and to preselect what's the best and what's not, it is for fun. Ain't beauty in the eye of the beholder? Maybe the beholders as the right to vote and be voted upon. And maybe every participants has the right to be polled.

I mean, this is for fun and to push people in expressing themselves in art, by giving them a subject to apply their creativity upon. By all means, dont discourage them!

My 2 cents. :yayca:

[fukifino]

Personally, and this is also just my opinion (as an observer, not a participant), I think that one of the other things that changed (that I personally don't like) is the requirement for adding a description and story. I enjoyed it much more (and I imagine the barrier for entry was lower) when it was provided as a brief and the only thing required was an image based on that. That's one of the things that I liked about the CHOW vs. the COW...just drawings, no descriptions beyond the brief.

I also agree with neoknocker. Removing entries based on a prejudging of the skill is a surefire way to get people to stop playing.

In the end though, I think the best way to get more people to participate is to lure those heavy hitters back. Maybe they all just ran out of time, but I think that without those people who participated heavily in the first dozen episodes, without that quality of work to lure people in and continually challenge people, this will begin to falter. It seems more like it's becoming an extended DSG at this point.

[carotello]

I don't know how I feel about the removal of entries based on skill. While it is understandable to want to have a certain preliminary filtering method, it's important to also realize the gaps in age, experience, and artistic sensibility that exist I am sure among the community that participates in this thing. I also feel like while some people want to have fun, other people might take it with a little more seriousness. I personally feel I fall in the latter category. I am a student, and I will be graduating sometime soon, and I would very much like to get some hands on practice of the kind of thing I might have to deal with in the real world. Call me naive, but I would really like to know what it's like to work as a concept artist, and to know exactly how much information they are given in their assignments, what kind of description they have to deal with. I suspect (and trust me, I don't really know anything about the business) that you are given a much more specific description of the thing you gotta work on. I would love to know whether these activities reflect at all a real world type scenario or if they are just "fun".
Anyway, I am new to this site, and maybe I am misinterpreting its purpose. Any ideas?

[hwango]

I mean, this is for fun and to push people in expressing themselves in art, by giving them a subject to apply their creativity upon. By all means, dont discourage them!

I agree. I was surprised to see that almost half of the entries for week #26 weren't taken to the poll. Maybe if there were 57 entries I could understand cutting a few that weren't very professional, but we're talking about cutting it from 9 or 10 down to 5. While I do believe that the moderator should have the final say about what does or does not go to poll, I'm concerned that cutting too many participants will discourage future participation.

[vaughany_boy]

The best thing about this board is the amazing standards of the work, I don't want to see it slip. I can accept that I'm not at that level yet and I'm still going to keep working at it.

Although I looked at some of the older CHOW threads, and there were dozens of participents and much less strict moderating, opposed to there being 5 taken to the most recent poll. It's a shame, but I'd rather that than see less of the awsome work.

[dischord]

A good way to get lots of people to participate is to make a topic where you get to paint a hot girl. Even I was going to participate in the battle angel one, but I never got further than two sketches I never dared to post. heh

Maybe I'll try the geisha. I do have some ideas for it already.

[neoknocker]

The best thing about this board is the amazing standards of the work, I don't want to see it slip. I can accept that I'm not at that level yet and I'm still going to keep working at it.

Although I looked at some of the older CHOW threads, and there were dozens of participents and much less strict moderating, opposed to there being 5 taken to the most recent poll. It's a shame, but I'd rather that than see less of the awsome work.

Therefore, correct me if I'm wrong, if you gave a piece all your effort (with the time that you had), you judged it was "suitable" for the activity and yet it does not go to the poll because the moderator did not think it was good enough, you would not mind?

I just put myself in the place of people who works hard for their CHOW and just want to make it to the poll. I know for some it can be motivational to see that they did not make it. "I'm gonna try harder the next time" And that is the spirit to go with. And high quality work is mostly what we all strive for. I simply think that anyone who put some effort in their work should be poll worthy.

I'm just judging the lack of popularity of an activity that I like ( I'm not impartial in this) and I clearly see that their is less people participating. The cause that I can Identify is the poll. I might be wrong maybe people are simply bored with the CHOW and just does not care to participate, or just as I am, do not have the time to participate.

I simply find it curious that it is occuring at the same moment as the change in the poll's standards.

[vaughany_boy]

Therefore, correct me if I'm wrong, if you gave a piece all your effort (with the time that you had), you judged it was "suitable" for the activity and yet it does not go to the poll because the moderator did not think it was good enough, you would not mind?



That did just happen to me. I put alot of work into the last topic and it was cut, but I don't mind. Oblio is in charge, so it's his call.

I can see where you're coming from, it is a little hurtful and frustrating to see a piece you have really worked for rejected and I don't want to see everyone driven away from the activity. But personally, I think it would be a shame if the boards did start to fill up with work that was not up to the standard. Sometimes, I come really close to not posting my own stuff at all, because I know that I'm not at a professional level and that is what this board is all about. I want the work here to stay at a level that will keep me intimidated, because it motivates and inspires me to keep working towards it.

I just think that it is the mod's call to make and they know what they're doing. And then when work is accepted, we know it'll be awsome and that the artists have earned their place. Sorry.

[evildisco]

As a regular visitor of the ChoW subforum, I think that the topics have become a little bland not to rain on anyone's parade but that's the reason for me that I haven't joined the fray since last year.
This might be a shared feeling and thus the resulting dimished turnout.

[Simon Boxer]

But personally, I think it would be a shame if the boards did start to fill up with work that was not up to the standard.

Exactly. I've had my entries cut from COW a few times (although from content, or lack of, rather than execution), and numerous things I haven't even bothered submitting to the weeklies. I just spent about 5 hours doing a partially matte painted cyberpunk cafe for this week's EOW, and have now decided it's really not going anywhere. It's painful to discard, but I'm so sick of it.

If the submission quality drops it will discourage professionals (or even the better amateurs) to participate. Everyone needs a challenge, and we should all be pushed to reach a certain standard of work. The great thing about CA is that it takes art seriously, and if people get away with submitting work of low quality it just ruins the weekly topics' credibility.

Regarding the Bataka Rai CHOW; The main factor for the poor response was probably the topic. It didn't provide much room for interpretation, as shown by all the stereotypical egyptians present in the poll (mine included). Was a pretty dull result, really.

Also, I was on vacation the Battle Angel week, and was disappointed to see what I'd missed. This week's Geisha topic is probably the closest we've seen since.

[S.C. Watson]

But personally, I think it would be a shame if the boards did start to fill up with work that was not up to the standard.

Forgive me for butting into a topic and subforum that I don't run anymore, but I was curious who's standards we're talking about...?

When I established the CHOW, my idea was to push the individual artist to their best - not some ideal that I as the mod maintained. Yes, we *all* want to be Feng, Todd Lockwood, Danoto or whomever, but 99% of us are simply not at that point.

I am not a supporter of cutting people from the poll just because I don't like their work.

I find that approach rather elitist, and it doesn't serve anyone.

I tried to judge the work by very simple standards: Is this the best work that that particular artist can do given the time allowed? And does it match the description (allowing for creative interpetations)?

If the work hit on both of those, I took it to poll, and let the public decide who was the winner.

Nuff said. Back in the cave.
~Oreg.

[edit] Incidently, CHOW was not geared as so much a concept activity, as a complete illustration activity. That was one of the reasons that the description was provided, instead of having the artist provide it. Just something to think about.

[vaughany_boy]

It isn't written anywhere that there is a mark that work has to reach in order to be posted, I know. All I innocently meant is that I was really pleased when I first came across this board because it was actually full of really high end stuff, I mean, every time I look here I can find something new that knocks me on my ass and I'd hate for that to change. I know that's unlikely to happen based on the people who use and organise the site, but the high quality of artwork here is something very special and unusual. Most art related forums on the internet attract alot of kids who, despite all the enthusiasm in the world, can't finish a piece of work like people on here can. I don't want to sound high and mighty because I'm only a student and I'm only here to try and learn from you people, but there aren't many communities that are regularly full of pro level work.

I just mean to say that I can see why our work was not included. I agree that everyone should be able to participate to the best of the ability no matter what level they are at. It's just a game and it's a good way for people to learn and have fun. But I can understand some reasons for Oblio's call. You're right, cutting work is very elitist, and I think if I was in charge, I'd probably end up taking your more individual based approach Oregano. I just mean that I, personally, don't mind being missed off the Bataka Rai CHow. :)

[S.C. Watson]

Most art related forums on the internet attract alot of kids who, despite all the enthusiasm in the world, can't finish a piece of work like people on here can.

That was the other criteria that I used: the piece had to be finished/completed.

~Oreg.

[vaughany_boy]

Maybe I phrased that badly. I don't mean that people always abandon their work halfway through I mean that there are not many message boards where the quality of finished work is this damn good. For the activities, I think it would be better to be more flexible than say, the finally finished section, but I'd still be sad to see the heavy hitters in the COW and CHOW type activities lose interest.

[neoknocker]

I just think that it is the mod's call to make and they know what they're doing. And then when work is accepted, we know it'll be awsome and that the artists have earned their place. Sorry.

Hey, dont be sorry buddy. I'm not pissed or anything. That post is well presented and we are simply sharing opinions.

And regarding the "Heavy hitters" I think that most of the big guns here are pretty humble and are willing to share their knowledge with the community. And, it is a simple belief, I dont think they would lose interest in participating if their is some people that are not of their "caliber", so to speak. Heck, they kick our ass anyway!

[Oblio]

uh - i'm sick as a dog so i might just be fuzzy.
my goal is to set this "activity" as professional as possible.
i like to work with people that are taking my ideas further so we can work together a better and better concept - that's why i have resurected the description. I will provide the basic, you will provide you vision.

i also choose the topics to stimulate imagination, to reflect real demands and sometimes... just to have fun.
i'm sure i sound like an idiot when i say that there are lots of activities to follow - and the fact that i want the CHOW a bit more.. drastic... is a stupid way - in the end.. we are all doing this for fun. Yet... i would love to have an area that is pushing pieces into your portfolio.

[Omerta_One1987]

does anyone having good ideas to make soldiers of WOII into orcsoldiers of that time???

[dragon4lunch]

Hey, where is round # 38???

[Chr]

rule 2: art created for this activity only... is the rule there to prevent of use of old art? I wonder because I might be able to bend a school asignment to fit this activity ( :) ) is that ok? the art will be created for the activity.

I guess its ok since its not reuse of anything old?

[Johnnyhorse]

Chr - As long as it's made for this activity... it's fine. Plus if none of us ever see it outside of this activity it's probably all right. Just make it very specific to the topic

[Ian Mack]

It seems like this activity is meant to help you get a job as a character artist. Hence, the focus on presentation. I've only been here for the Ortho CHOW but after completing I think that I can include it my portfolio to show that I can work with specific instructions.

As to the quality of the work and being cut...I don't know. I think I'd prefer to see everyone's entry provided it follows all the rules of presentation.

[dbensen]

So can we suggest characters from books? There are a lot of good ones out there that no one has illustrated.
for example:
Steel---a wolf-like, pack-mind general from Vernor Vinge's Fire Upon the Deep
Miles Vorkosigan---dwarfish genius commander from Louis McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan books
(um...)
Hlavin Kitheri---an alien aristocrat, something like a wolf or bear or velociraptor from Mary Doria Russle's The Sparrow

[AbstractPagan]

I was thinking something like a hero for another world. I kept this wide open since it seems to be more desirable.

[Tenno]

Something seems to have gone screwy with the round #61 voting thread....

[jceballo]

I'm definitely sorry if this has been asked. But is there anyway to take a look back at the old entries that didnt win? Like in the COW thread there are the winners with a link to the voting thread.

[Oblio]

sure - just selectg the view mode (in the bottom of the page) to show more then "last month" - put that on "from the begining" then brose the extra pages.

[Serpian]

I dont't know if this thread's dead, but i fugured this would be more appropriate to post here than in the suggestion thread. So..

Last chow came up, what, thursday? And many chows before it have been late. And they're supposed to come up mondays, right? So I'd like to know if the reason for the delay is just that the people posting the new threads have lifes too, and don't always find the time, or if it's this 'win this week, decide next week's topic' business, with the winner not knowing he has won and taking his time deciding topic and so on.

Because if it's the latter, that's easy to fix, just change it to 'win this week, decide topic the week after the next'. A one week buffer should be enough for any winner to figure out what he wants to be concept'd.

[Oblio]

thx for the worry.
i guess it's a bit of both - i am really swamped with work and i find myself more in places where i can't get to check thing on time. I've been to SF until few days ago, now i'm in Bucharest i'll be in Paris tomorrow, Firday i'll be in Bulgaria... and so on.
I'll try to do things on time - as much as possible.
I think things should be kept fresh - on eweek buffer will make comunication even slower. People get carried away by earthly things very easy.
As soon as i settle down... i'll get it back running on time.

thx again for the interest. if the winner is geting detached from the others in the poll early - it would be nice if youguys would remind him to think of a subject :)

[Captain Nemo]

Amidst the thumb-twiddling in this week's topic-less thread, there was a bit of discussion on what to do in these cases. The most sensible (here's Lukavi's (http://conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1339354&postcount=97)) still rely on Oblio being around to moderate the situation. However, all our eggs in the Oblio basket mean that either Oblio is shackled to his post, or there are entirely reasonable but thread-crippling lapses in coverage during his real-world activities.

Oblio needs a lieutenant/vice/substitute/second-in-command/understudy so that when he takes normal human outings the forum doesn't fall apart.

[Mince Pockets]

Not meaning to be rude, just curious. (I'm not bitter, I didn't even finish my entry!) How is this a democratic vote if one person filters out what we even get to vote on? I can understand culling out unfinished pieces, but "image too dark" , "too generic" and "the character gets too lost in all the blacks"? Surely that's up to the voters? And isn't this a contest of best concept, not best illustration?

Is this culling to do with bandwidthy issues or something? Thanks for your time ;] Don't take this as an attack, please ;]

[trevor]

hey mince
i think the simple reality is
some images will NOT get any votes
what is the point of bringing an image very obviously
below the skill of the 40 or so that get in into the poll?
yes there is a time issue
yes there is a bandwidth issue
but quality is also an issue
this may be a fun contest but it is also something to be taken seriously too
because of some of my entries i have recieved crap loads of freelance work
this is a light exercise yes but it is also good preparation for the real world
you dont always get the job you apply for
you dont always even get a reason why either
at least here you do get the reasons why you didnt make it
and lets face it
if your going to be a pro your going to get a lot of HARSH criticism
if you cant grow a thick skin you may never be able to deal with it

[Oblio]

gotta love the Trevor guy !

art is not a democratic process.
CHOW is set up on a client basis - meaning - someone requires a concept - and he gets to choose a winner. In this case.. we are more open - and we don;t select a winner - we select severall pieces and let YOU choose one. Just for fun - not for democratic reasons. Surely - the goal is to evolve as artists, to make friends, to have a challenge every week and so on.
ChOW... the "h" is for HARDER! got character? :p

[Mince Pockets]

Thanks for the reply, Oblio. I understand it's just for fun now.

And Trevor ...thanks for your concern, but I do design for a living, criticism of my work is a daily reality. Not quite sure what part of my question you were responding to, but thanks for your time.

Now to get back to researching for the "Ice Druid"! *cracks whip at self*

[trevor]

quick question
is there a voting cap in the polls?
i was checking out who voted for who
and one persons name appeared ALL over the place
i counted 21 votes from that person (-anubis-)
isnt that a lil overkill? hahahahhah perhaps there should be a suggested vote cap? i think casting 21 votes is a little excessive and kind of takes the whole point out of voting AKA "i cant decide hmmmmmmmm.....I KNOW! ILL VOTE FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!"
this isnt meant as a slight to -anubis- btw i just found it odd that we could vote at LEAST 21 times

[peter_john]

I think COW works one a one vote system. That might cut through the fog some and get a clearer vote on things. We can always mention other ones we liked in the comments after the poll.

[Tom Garden]

Yeh i can always vote for as many as i like

on another note....

What are we doing for CHOW 100? Cow has a special round going on, and i think it would be great to have something happen for the 100th chow?

I dont think 100 characters would be feasible, perhaps 100 silhouettes? lol

But might be worth starting a thread for some ideas and discussion!

[Sellis]

For the love of God don't temp Oblio, You know how gutted i am that i don't have time to join in COW 100.......i can't cope with another let down like that just yet :(

However; it is nine weeks away :P so stuff what i just said! I whole heartedly agree with tom, lets get a CHOW#100 suggestion thread on the go :wink:

Stu

[S.C. Watson]

For those that are interested, the topic for CHOW 100 has been selected and will be posted at the appropriate time.

Cheers,
~Oreg.

[bumskee]

is 100 anything special? as in like how COW #100 was??

[daestwen]

Yesh! I'm excited and incredibly nervous at the same time. :/

[S.C. Watson]

is 100 anything special? as in like how COW #100 was??
Not quite in the same manner as COW100 - for example, we won't have the cool added benefit of $100 off tuition to Seattle.

But, it will be special for CHOW - A new Queen will be chosen. So, we hope to have an exciting round.

ciao :geekg:
~Oreg.

[Micaiah Nelson]

Not quite in the same manner as COW100 - for example, we won't have the cool added benefit of $100 off tuition to Seattle.

But, it will be special for CHOW - A new Queen will be chosen. So, we hope to have an exciting round.

ciao :geekg:
~Oreg.

How are ya up and ruin the surprice. :S. People are up and gettin head starts.

[bumskee]

new queen again? awsome.. :D
just curious, since LMS#3 was pushed back to end of the december and now #100 might just clash with the new deadline... and if it was like "design" 100 chars.. is there a place for more info? or will it be unveiled when the time is right? sorry for the stupid dumb wanky questions.. :)

I don't think it ruined any surprise.. unless I missed something..

[S.C. Watson]

How are ya up and ruin the surprice. :S. People are up and gettin head starts.

It would do them no good. The new Queen has been common knowledge for about a week or so.

But the brief hasn't been posted, so anything anyone does ahead of time will be useless for the final round.

No fear. No one is getting a head start.

Ciao :geekg:
~Oreg.

[S.C. Watson]

new queen again? awsome.. :D
just curious, since LMS#3 was pushed back to end of the december and now #100 might just clash with the new deadline... and if it was like "design" 100 chars.. is there a place for more info? or will it be unveiled when the time is right? sorry for the stupid dumb wanky questions.. :)

I don't think it ruined any surprise.. unless I missed something..

All I can say at this point is that there will be more than enough time to do both. It's just poor planning on Cody's part that he chose to do LMS in the middle of one of the biggest events here on CA :needle: :P

More info will become available after CHOW 99 (a two week round). All pertinant information will be in the CHOW 100 thread. Look for it sometime after December 9th.

Until then, sharpen you stylus. Your competition will soon be served. :geekg:

~Oreg.

[d37hb01]

hey stupid question but will the queen and her court thread be updated with the new winners? coz i just noticed it's stopped @ 44

[S.C. Watson]

hey stupid question but will the queen and her court thread be updated with the new winners? coz i just noticed it's stopped @ 44

yes, it will be updated. It's one of the many things on my long list of "todo's" :geekg:

Ciao,
~Oreg.

[JessiBean]

Would you hurry up and get on that? Mmm?
:assspank:

[S.C. Watson]

Archiving this - a new fresh thread will be posted soon.

Ciao,
~Oreg.