Saloon Girl

[Pillick]

http://www.filehigh.com/serve/5847/43054.jpg

Hi all. I'm hoping to get this one good enough to be worth framing. So looking for some serious crits, any suggestions welcome.

[Danilo]

this is nice, but you could try to separate face and arm value, and maybe some bg will add final depth

[madster]

No, this is not nice. This is sad. That poor girl, having to hide the fact that she has no bottom to her face behind a somewhat ratty-looking fur boa...

I suggest you read this (http://drawsketch.about.com/library/weekly/aa121202a.htm) to get a better idea about head proportions.

I would also suggest for future works that you attempt to draw the head, shoulders, and body first, and then add the boa. This looks like a bad attempt to cover up really bad anatomy, and it isn't working.

The eyes are too large for the skull, and do not look spherical. Also, the left eyeball is bulging terribly out from the face.

The nose is too large, and too far down on the face, leaving no room for lips or a chin, unless you elongate the face so much that the skull would not fit on the neck...

Additionally, the arm is either positioned such, or rendered such, that it looks like she has a hunchback.

The boa does not look like feathers, and with the coloring and brush strokes, is looks heavy and matted...

The big feather coming out from the head is also quite heavy looking, and the thing in front of it with the flower looks like something pasted over this piece, it does not blend in with anything...

Keywords you need to study and practice are:
Head Anatomy
Female Upper torso and head anatomy
Eye Anatomy
Line (for rendering feathers)
Value

~M

[sve]

I don't know, I kind of like it. No, not kind of. I like it. It's very funny. It cheers me up, she has a personality of an alive person. Girl who likes to giggle a lot :). Yes, the features are exaggerated, but it adds to personality, in my opinion. I'll take her with me.
Sveta Dudetta

[Pillick]

Oww madster, first time looking through your comments was painful. But after looking at them carefully, you are spot on. Arrgh why do I never see these errors in the initial sketch? Need forget about just trying to draw what I see without measuring or constructing. Damn you, this is the second time you've convinced me to go back to scratch and start a new sketch. Dont think I can salvage this one.

As for the rendering (which was a complete waste of time now...) I know the flower and feather are complete ass, It was the last thing I did and was running out of motivation. To me the boa looks ok in terms of texture but has no shape. The hair I am really happy about, and the skin too, apart from her "black eye". Not getting what Madster and Danilo are saying about value?

Thanks for your encouragement sve. It's especially cool that you picked up on the personality and mood. If I can keep that with more accurate proportions I'll be happy. Looked at your sketchbook by the way, its really good stuff - we're privilaged to have you in the critique section.

[madster]

Oww madster, first time looking through your comments was painful. But after looking at them carefully, you are spot on. Arrgh why do I never see these errors in the initial sketch? Need forget about just trying to draw what I see without measuring or constructing. Damn you, this is the second time you've convinced me to go back to scratch and start a new sketch. Dont think I can salvage this one.Thank you, Pillick. I'm SO glad you were able to get past the pain, and then see the work through my eyes. I seldom suggest how to correct what I see, because it may be a purposeful design choice on your part, but I do point out why it does not look attractive to me. If you agree, and find my observations helpful, then I feel I am being of use to my fellow members, and to Jason and CA.

No personal offense is ever intended, although I may ravage a work to its foundations.
I'm glad none was taken.

Regards,
~M

[sve]

I'm not sure you will get that humorous touch and charm with right proportions :)
We'll see. You will show it, right :)?
Sveta Dudetta
P.S. Thanks for kind words

[Pillick]

Here you go Dudes and Dudetta (teehee)

http://www.filehigh.com/serve/5847/43367.jpg

Hopefully addressed the proportion problems. Any crits before I start rendering again?

Oh madster - Of course you are of use here. When taken properly, your crits lead to big improvements. But the way you word them often leads people to get annoyed and reject them. I gather this is a section is for near finished works, which means that people have invested alot of time into them. So its pretty easy to hurt thier feelings and put them off either listening to you or posting in the first place.

[madster]

Pillick,
You said it yourself, "When taken properly."

It is not my problem, NOR my concern whether or not an artist is put off or not, just as it is not my concern whether they take any of my suggestions or not.

I report what I see, and try to explain the "why" of it being dis-harmonious to the eye.
I do not sugar coat my observations, nor provide tissues for the e-tears.

Concept Art is not for the average doodler. The Critique Center is NOT for the timid. As was once stated about my critiques,

"If you can't take Madster's critiques, you can't take Real Life."

Just because a lot of time was invested in the work doesn't guarantee that the time and effort was effectively used.

Spending hours, if not days, drawing intently on a piece with shoddy anatomy, lousy lighting, and horrid proportions and perspective is a waste across the board. That does not give anyone a "pass" for being told the work is substandard, simply because they put a lot of work into it.

But thank you for your opinion.
~M

[Returner]

I'll tell you what, I cannot do anything but agree 100% with Madster. I don't get a chance to post often, but I feel the need to point out how important it is to recieve brutally constructive criticism. One of the first places I go to is the Critique Center, just to hear what he'll point out next. I mean, sure I'll laugh once in a while, but not as hard as when someone takes offense. When I'm at school, I hope my teachers will give me that type of criticism at the end of the day..Unfortunately this is not the case, and it really is a shame because this is the type of advice you absolutely need to progress in your artistic ventures.

I'm glad to see that you've taken his criticism as it was intended, especially since it has forced you to take a much harder look at what you were drawing and make some minor improvements. Perhaps before rendering, I would go back and take another look at the proportions for the head. I definitely suggest taking a look at a nose tutorial (I suggest Loomis's books which can be found at www.fineart.sk), the nose has been outlined a little too much.

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing some more progress, so keep at it.

[madster]

Returner,
I cannot express my deepest gratitude to you for SO simply, yet eloquently stating what has been told to me by so many members, but never really posted online for other members to read...If I tried to say that, as well as the statement Jason once wrote about in another thread, how people pay THOUSANDS of dollars to try to get the honest, yet (hopefully) enlightening type of critiques that I and other members provide here at CA for free, I would be even more vilified by the "Polite Police" and the Whinybabies. I just happen to be one of the most outspoken amongst us, with little use for social nicities when I am focusing on the art, not the artist. I am not affected by the emotional reactions, because artists are a strange lot, letting their works affect them in such a personal manner in the first place. I, myself am lousy at taking criticism (NO, not teh Madster!), but once over the initial pain, force myself to go back and re-evaluate what was commented on. Often times, I try to make changes, because the observations are things I didn't see until they were pointed out.

If you're too busy getting your feelings hurt, instead of taking advantage of another point of view of your work, how on earth can you create works that people will like? A vast majority of the populace simply doesn't say anything if they don't like it. Silence is a far harsher critique than I will ever be...

Pillick I am not referring to 'you,' in this post, I am addressing the "you" generally to anyone reading it...
~M

[Firefly]

Hi Phillick,

I see you've already gotten alot of crit, but my 2 cents is that the eyes are to white. Everything else is in sepia's except for the screaming whites of the eyes. The white is a big part of what's making them look like they're bulging or popping out of her head. Under natural light you'll never see eyes that white. Eyes are set back in the head and the brows and the root of the nose casts shadows on them. Bright white eyes look freaky and unnatural because it's a clue that unnatural light is coming on the subject. Think white glowing eyes when you're drawing witches looking into glowing bubbling cauldrons.

Take a piece of white paper and crumple it up and put it under your lamp. Notice all the areas that are dark (some very dark) because of shadows. You need to shade white things just like everything else.

Your redo is getting better, I'd say the nose is to long. Her head is turned down, which causes foreshortening of the nose. Shorten the nose and show us some of her mouth, it will make for a much more interesting portrait. If we could see a little bit of a flirty mouth the portrait would read much better.

[Slash]

(I suggest Loomis's books which can be found at www.fineart.sk)



and on www.saveloomis.org

and someone here at CA have them hosted in pdf format, but i cant remember who. Do a search for "loomis + pdf + host" or something.

Best wishes on your progress!

[Returner]

@Madster - You're quite welcome! It's the least anyone can do to point this out to people who may not already know the importance of recieving straightforward and honest criticism. I have much respect for the way you've handled your critiques, and it was more than worthwhile to point out the importance of someone, just as you stated, giving this type of advice for free. People do pay thousands of dollars to get this, I myself among these people, and you'll be surprised how much you do NOT learn in school. This is where it's at, and it truly is a privilege to be able to participate.

For those who cannot take the heat, you are not ready to be an artist. It only gets worse down the road, because future clients and employers will criticize your work as well. I would think that would be worse, considering some(or most) will not be fellow artists.

Once I get a little more free time, and I am able to post some of my work, I can't wait to have it ripped apart! So keep that in mind Madster :^^:

Edit--- @ Slash OMG, how did I forget that one! lol

[Pillick]

Here's a quick update just to show I'm still working on this.

http://www.filehigh.com/serve/5847/44174.jpg

Much happier with the hatching this time around, starting to look alot more like the style I was aiming for (http://www.conceptart.org/artist/andrew-jones/images/praha/val_digiport.jpg)

Now some replies:

Madster and Returner:

Guys, its my fault, my last comment to Madster should have been pm'ed, but this thread has gone a bit off topic lately. Lets leave what seems to be a pretty touchy topic for somewhere else, ok? Love to see some of your stuff Returner.

Slash:

Thanks for the link, I'd been there ages ago. I've got the pdfs floating around somewhere, havent made good use of them :S

Firefly:

I kinda like the way the eyes pop, if they didnt look so squished. Its actually a very off-white that I used, I think that it really stood out when I didnt have much contrast in the skin, but looks better now. Your idea of showing the mouth is a good one.

[Pillick]

Not sure what to do now, looking pretty close to finished...

http://www.filehigh.com/serve/5847/44307.jpg

Any suggestions for the feather and flower? They dont look quite right.

[rasdasa]

vast improvement, great work seeping through the crits and making the most of it. I know somone aready stated this, but it doesn't seem that you've yet taken it into consideration: round the eyeballs out, even they go down a shade(significantly infact) as they turn away from the light. The further corner of the main eye needs to be darkened, it shouldn't be such a flat white straight accross. If you aren't really going for that cartoony feel, then tone down the roundness and dramatic line of that front nostril, it just looks like a marble was stuck in there, and make sure to lighten that harsh shadow lining the right of it, much too strong.

Keep it coming

-ras

[sve]

Hello, Pillick. It's great that you are trying new variations. Yeah, the feather is very soft and light now, but it's a totally different person. The light headed- light hearted charming giggler is gone, in my opinion. Only the pose is reminding me about her. This new girl looks more reserved and connected with the would around her. I like the hair and boa on the first post better. The feather is better on the last update. I'll stay on my words. The first one is much more appealing for me. Although I like the new one too
I'm sorry you guys don't see it like me.
Sveta Dudetta

[rasdasa]

I understand where you are coming from Dudetta, it's important for us to establish what the artists is aiming for when we first start the crits.
Pillick, Did you want this picture to be more a representational piece of art? Or a comic caricature?


-ras

[madster]

The feather in the hair looks MUCH better, as does the lower part of the face. I particularly like the improvements of the boa. It LOOKS like a boa, now!

Dudetta, this is not your average art site, where everything posted is a masterpiece worthy of asspats. Particularly here, in the Critique Center, where works posted are held to a higher level of technical expertise that elsewhere on the forums.

Here, works are critiqued against "the Basics" of composition and design. We do not make excuses that "oh, it might be a cartoon, or a caricature." It is up to the artist to convey any such additional information, but that STILL is NOT going to excuse the work from being judged on "the Basics." Even caricatures and cartoons must display technical skill in this arena.

I hope you have a clearer understanding, now.

~M

[sve]

Well, madster, in my opinion his technical skills are good enough for me to like his work. And no, I'm not gonna change my opinion because you don't like it. And I really don't like how you're projecting yourself in this thread. It was the first time I read you and that's my impression from your post. Now let see how you take it. I remember about "Polite Police" and the Whinybabies. Could you take it?
Sveta Dudetta

[madplanet]

This may seem like a small detail, but it's the first thing that I noticed. The eyebrow over her right eye seems like it starts in the middle of her forehead. I didn't get that impression on the earlier ones, but I see it clearly in the last one. keep it up, you're gettin' there.

[rasdasa]

The feather in the hair looks MUCH better, as does the lower part of the face. I particularly like the improvements of the boa. It LOOKS like a boa, now!

Dudetta, this is not your average art site, where everything posted is a masterpiece worthy of asspats. Particularly here, in the Critique Center, where works posted are held to a higher level of technical expertise that elsewhere on the forums.

Here, works are critiqued against "the Basics" of composition and design. We do not make excuses that "oh, it might be a cartoon, or a caricature." It is up to the artist to convey any such additional information, but that STILL is NOT going to excuse the work from being judged on "the Basics." Even caricatures and cartoons must display technical skill in this arena.

I hope you have a clearer understanding, now.

~M


Si si, I agree with that caustic statement, but to me the bloody most annoying thing is when a critique is given but the artist totally ignores it because that's not what they are really focused on. It's just frustrating that they expect you to know what they want critiqued specifically, without them even saying so. Happens all the time in school. That's not what you are doing here Pillick, since you are taking to mind the comments, it's just some other individuals whose work i've spent my time and sincerity in critiquing with no actual appreciation, even though they invited me to give them my opinion... it's obvious all they wanted was to show off!
It makes me want to deliver flying elbows to the juggular... ehem...anyways, enough of this, it's off topic and redundent.

peace
-ras

[Pillick]

Hi all,

Probably wont see another update for a few days, not liking the far side of the face or the eyes, but dont have time just now. Also think I need to adjust the hair to see more of the arched eyebrow without having it in a wierd place.

Rasada: I get what you mean, its quite an effort to crit sometimes, to take a closer look and explain what is wrong. I mean, its up to the artist to pick and choose how to apply the comments, but they should at least consider them carefully, otherwise how are they going to learn anything from them?

Sveta: I can see how Madster rubbed you up the wrong way if this is your first encounter with him. Maybe he has got a bit of an ego, but he knows his stuff and shares it. So often 100 people will look at something and just think "meh... next...", but he will be the one who actually tells you why. Thats exactly what I asked for when I posted this up here, and I am much happier with the way this is turning out.

Madplanet: thanks for the comment, will be playing around with that eyebrow.

[Pillick]

Heh, couldnt put it off, made time tonight to fix it. Final verson maybe?

http://www.filehigh.com/serve/5847/45016.jpg

[rasdasa]

Heh, couldnt put it off, made time tonight to fix it. Final verson maybe?

http://www.filehigh.com/serve/5847/45016.jpg

That's up for you to decide, there is pretty much always something to crit...
at this point, to me her jaw seems to stretch too far behin her ear, even though I realize you've indicated that it's really her neck and that the jaw line does break off before the ear, it's not very clear, try to darken that part of the neck(right behind the ear , at pretty much the insertion point of the sternocleidomastoid) so that it indicates a greater amount of plane shifting. Just run your fingers over that area on your neck and you'll realize the significant curve and dip, then look at the drawing, it does't really represent that very well. You've started to indicate it, but you've sort of left it hanging at this point. All in all though not bad at all, try to darken the bottom of the main nostril(I see you've tried to de-pea it) it looks better in my opinion. All subtle things that add to the whole.

-rasdasa

[sve]

Hey, Pillick.
If you are interested to hear my opinion I would like to say that I think you really did add an alive truthful expression to her face. It's different though. She is about to start giggle or it might have a different outcome. Something near her lower eyelids and her about to round up cheeks are hinting on that. That' s very fine emotion so I'm really happy for you that you caught it.

Feather looks beautiful and rosetta too. Hair is still much more interesting in the first post. and I like the boa in first post better, you still can add more texture to it.

I have a comment about her nose. I should've said it to you at an earlier stage, but I didn't realized that clearly. In my opinion, it would be better if her nostril is slightly higher than the tip of the nose. All her features descend at this angle from her right to her left. So I think it would look better if the tip of her nose is lower. And actually the same I can tell about her left eye.

But the last word is for you. You are her mother, father and oldest sibling :)
I'll take her with me too. It's a different emotion, but pretty hard one to catch too.

Sveta Dudetta

[BMunchausen]

Pillick, I think you've made some really nice improvements on this piece by listening to critique. Sometimes the blunt stuff is hard to take, but you've done it very graciously and that'll help you so much in the end.

I'm amazed at how many aspiring concept artists have such thin skins and get so angry when they get a tough critique like Madster's. Guess they don't get it - concept art is an iterative process; a job where 95% of the stuff you've (you in the general sense, not you specifically) been slaving over will be rejected by the client and/or members of the production team and you have to be able to just accept that and go back to the drawing board. If you can't, you have no business trying to be a concept artist.

Good work, Pillick! Keep those improvements coming. :)

[BMunchausen]

Pillick, I think you've made some really nice improvements on this piece by listening to critique. Sometimes the blunt stuff is hard to take, but you've done it very graciously and that'll help you so much in the end.

I'm amazed at how many aspiring concept artists have such thin skins and get so angry when they get a tough critique like Madster's. Guess they don't get it - concept art is an iterative process; a job where 95% of the stuff you've (you in the general sense, not you specifically) been slaving over will be rejected by the client and/or members of the production team and you have to be able to just accept that and go back to the drawing board. Anyone who can't, has no business trying to be a concept artist.

Good work, Pillick! Keep those improvements coming. :)

[Pillick]

http://www.filehigh.com/serve/5847/45542.jpg

Rasada - thanks for the suggestions. Didnt know what you were talking about with the "sternocleidomastoid" till I looked it up =P

Sveta - of couse I'm interested to hear your opinion - its so different from anyone elses, like you look at things with very different eyes.

BMunchausen - thanks for the encouragement, but I think thats it for now. No more noodling unless there is something glaringly wrong.

Can I put this up in the finished section now? huh? huh?

[rasdasa]

Well, like I said, there will always be something to nitpick, but from what it was to what you've transformed it into is a huge improvement representationally.
If you think you are done and are happy with it then by all means post it, it's up to you to bring down the axe.
Good work Pillick, your maturity is admirable.

-ras