Oil Portrait in-progress >> give me your harshest

[Geuseppe]

I'm about 1/2 finished (coverage) or 1/4 finished (time) with an oil portrait of Kramer from Seinfeld (michael richards) - this is more-or-less practice. I'm attempting to delve back into oils quite a bit and I need some basic portraiture under my belt before I start worrying about content. I really would only like serious critiques.

So I've gotten the stages I've worked up so far - I'm realizing that in the eyes, mostly, the quality of likeness from the drawing is being lost a bit - I'll have to go back to my reference and drawing and tighten up some values and shapes to make sure that the likeness is there:

http://www.joebluhm.com/gfx/kramer_compare.gif

Also, my reference is from an internet-found image, screencapture of the show Seinfeld, where the colors are heavily sienna (shadows) - I liked this look and intended to go almost monochromatic from the shadows to lights on his face, then realized I need practice in color observation, so I worked up a more diverse pallette. Hopefully in the picture conversion the colors aren't changed too much.

I toned a canvas, sketched with a soft charcoal pencil, sealed the charcoal, toned it more with a deeper sienna or terra cotta wash, then painted straight onto the dry canvas, using some mineral spirits to avoid long drying times... I hear people talking about cobalt driers... any info on this would help.

Well, fire away, and if you can, be critical and bruital... I'm here to learn. :)

http://www.joebluhm.com/gfx/kramer.jpg

>> my apologies if this should be in the 'critique' section - far more traffic here <<

[Lone Wolf]

Looks good, but the indentation in his nose is to big.And i think there should be more loose hairs on the top of his head.

[Kenny_Callicutt]

blue cobalt drier.. look at DSillustrations tutorial I think he talks about it.

the features looks slightly exaggerated, but I dont think your doing a caricature because looking at your other caricatures.. you dont do slight exaggerations.

maybe post the reference photo as well?



and there is a work in progress forum. I dont know Im not a mod they will propably move it.

[Bammer]

>> my apologies if this should be in the 'critique' section - far more traffic here <<

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=29
(When you put "in progress" in the title of your post, but post in "finally finished," it's sorta silly.)

Seems like a pretty good painting. It's tiny so a little difficult to crit hard. Is it supposed to look like him or is it supposed to look funny? Because the way you drew his lips and eyes, it looks funny. Which makes sense and everything, but if you were going for realism then those parts need work.

Also, post the ref.

[DSillustration]

i'd love to crit...
but i definetly need a bigger scan to see whats goin on.
reference would help too.
usually the reference doesnt mean squat,
but if its a portrait... the likeness is everything.

[theincredibleandy]

Like DSIllustration said, bigger images are easier to critique. I say show us the image at double size or more and we'll be able to help. For some oil painting technique stuff:

http://toddlockwood.com/faq.shtml

I'm sure there are plenty of other folks who have all this info, but he talks about driers and whatnot.

Bigger image! Seeing reference might help too. Go ahead and show that while you're at it.

[Flynt]

Hi Geuseppe,

Larger images would be helpful.

Looks like a good set up in terms of proportion and large shapes and forms.

I think the drawing could be pushed to more subtly before applying paint. I find it easier to work out drawing problems early on so I don't have to pile on too much paint.

Below is a sample of a drawing for a previous self portrait. I like to have everything to this level before I apply paint. I especially find it useful to find the contour of the entire head, the contours of the overlapping structures from your view point, and the terminator edge (a.k.a. shadow edge, bed bug line, etc.) This gives me a very complete linear map to follow.

Could be in the reproduction but take care that the cool green tones are not overstated. They should not compete chromatically with the skin tones facing more into the light.

These comments are assuming a fairly traditional non-stylized approach.

Ultimately only you know what you are after.

If you need a medium to speed drying Liquin is common. I have just tried Galkyd Painting medium #1 by Gamblin and it seems good so far.

Look forward to seeing more.

-Flynt

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/7985/sampleportraitdrawinglarge4fy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Geuseppe]

Thanks everyone... Flynt, those are excellent words. I will carry them to my next piece and not forget that each step is equally important, no matter how "important" or not the piece may be in the long run.

Also, maybe this will help.. I feel I'm making progress with the strokes and color, however I need to get the structure down from drawing to paint... it sometimes is lost.

http://www.joebluhm.com/gfx/kramer_closeup.jpg

[Geuseppe]

...with all the work I've done in the past and how many 'good' drawings I've labored over, I feel embarrased to show the shotty structure, but for critique's benefit, here's the ref:

http://www.joebluhm.com/gfx/kramer_ref.jpg

[cchuckry]

His nose is a little too thick and hooked. It'll look more like Kramer once his hair is done, since that's a defining part of his style. I like the warmer palette. Looking forward to seeing your progress.

[theincredibleandy]

THANK YOU for the bigger image. It looks like a much different piece now. I think madster pointed out most of the main stuff, especially the hair. You need that frizziness for contrast.

With the paint application it looks lke you're just pushing paint around in some places out of indecision. The strokes on his left cheek are pretty raw and don't quite describe the form (think of it just like hatching. The straight strokes flatten out that area too much. Even a little bit of curve would help them "sit" properly in the picture). On the nose you have the opposite problem, a weird gradient type of semi-roundness that lacks the brushstroke movement to describe how that part's moving in space. That and parts of the forehead look like gradients instead of form. Finally, it seems like the mid-tones are the only areas that have thin paint on them. Many old masters saved the opaque paint for the lights and let the thin paint in the shadow fall back. Since the shadow and light seem to have an equal amount of paint, the midtones seem like they should be like that too, and thus feel unfinished right now. In short, slow down and think more about hatching and sculpting with the paint. In a way it's all related.


color: I know you said that you were intentionally limiting your palette with the reference, but some of the color stuff really hurts and oughtta be dealt with. Be really careful with the color on his jacket. It looks too "out of the tube" brown, and I think some subtle crimsons and flecks of other stuff would bring it to life and tie it in a bit more. Also, the rim light on it looks like you just added white, and that's another no-no. The yellows in his midtones look funky, so I say either get a hint of that color in the rest of the piece or slap an orangey-red wash into it to pull out that glaring acidity. I say when in doubt, simplify the colors. The eyes have that dead gray you need to avoid at all costs.

Next time you want a limited palette, try doing an underpainting to start off. That way you'll be able to keep your palette under control without having to worry about it.

Anything useful in there?

[riq]

You have a great start to this painting!

There are a few things you should consider as you move on.

One of the best painting book I read cited three things you need to control for a good painting:

Value( lightness and darknes)
temperatures( cool vs warm colors)
and Edge control( how harsh or blended you created between values and colors)

you're working with the first two, but you're not designing your edges thus far.. Your harshest/strongest edge should be somewhere on the face: the eyes or nose.

You need much more subtle edges elsewhere. Allow some shape and colors to blend into each other.. And the further you get away from your focal point limit the contrast.. Right now it seem that you might visually pop out the collar on his jacket by using too much detail and contrast.

I've included links to one of my favorite portrait artists John Singer Seargent( everyone has probably hear of him) Notice how shadows run into the background. Looser less detailed brushstroke as you move away from the center of interest. Less form, detail and contrast as you move from the center of interest.

http://www.fineartchoice.com/Images/Mc-real/hires/4/S/F4S813.jpg

http://www.fineartchoice.com/Images/Mc-real/hires/4/S/F4S823.jpg

http://www.fineartchoice.com/Images/Mc-real/hires/4/S/F4S849.jpg

later,

riq.

[mark malone]

The thing about this forum is that people know their stuff, so whatever suggestions are made take them on board....but I personally wouldn't touch this piece any further, I think it is a great painting, easily recognisable and has some really nice touches.
If anything I would use this painting as a study and learn from it...
Once again great nice work.

[Blue]

can someone move this to the proper section? :nohope:

[Geuseppe]

Lord, in my haste and inexperience, I posted this here, made a note, then reposted it in a more fitting section, however this is where it got more attention. I apologize if it offends you.

All who are critiquing, thanks.

[DV8]

IMO no need to be perfectly photo real, and although you've strayed slightly from the ref, i think it works nicely...

the only real complaint is the almost totally black eyes... looks a little demonic (no whites of eyes) but great otherwise

nice work

Mike

[Flynt]

Hey Geuseppe

Some things that might or might not be useful.

For drawing, check and recheck constantly. Relate points and tilts of lines. See shapes. Label these shapes as creatures then look to see if you have the exact same creature in you painting. If not adjust until you do.

Value is controlled primarily by local value of objects, distance to the light source and the angle of a plane in space to the light source.

Because of this investigate the photo.

Where is your light source in the picture? It appears you have two main light sources. The dominate one is from the upper left hand corner (look at the cast shadows to help give you direction and angle). The second is coming in from the right hand side. This is important for the hierarchy of values in the pictures. Do not have values from the secondary light source competing with the primary.

Your larger values relations are off to a good start. Now use the above information to subdivide those values further and create a subtle hierarchy of values (this will also help edge problems and form problems)

Color.

Look at your light sources again.

Look at the color (temp if you prefer) of both. It appears nether is extremely warm but in relation the primary is warmer than the secondary. Let this help you color choices as you choose the color is form in the warmer of cooler light.

Things that affect color. Local color, Temperature of light, and angle of form to the light source.

Despite what photos show. To human perception the places of an object facing a light will always be more chromatically intense. As the form turns away from the light the form grays down loosing intensity (some people describe this as a temperature shift). Look for this when looking at life. It can help guide your color. The problem is that photos often reverse this relationship. They can't accurately reproduce this effect for a number of reasons so you will have to compensate and not reproduce the colors you see.

While on color. I mentioned before I think your cool tones in the face many be too high and should be grayed down. We see cool tones like this in skin tones often because we are seeing a chromatically lower area (a more grayed down region) surrounded by a higher chromatic area, causing us to see the complement in the lower of the two. For example Caucasian flesh (Orange/Red) so we tend to see blue or green. There is no blue or green really there. To prove it further place a very strong blue or green next to these and you will see how dull they really are. So careful in overstating these. They are often more subtle than you might think. It is often helpful to think of them as the local color shifted toward blue or green. For example, an orange that is shifted as much as you can toward green without it leaving the orange hue family.

Again just information to apply as you see fit.

Curious to see how this one turns out. :teeth:

-Flynt

[Geuseppe]

Thanks, Flynt... I know I'll be bothering you for your words more than once. ;)

As for chromatic temperature shifts - I had a friend (painter) who often mentions the intense warms that wrap around the shadows, just before the shadow takes over the form... are you saying it's the opposite? - I try to observe these things, but it's something that my mind often shifts around.

I'll work heavily on 'controling' what is dominant, saturated, and subtle with the paint. already working on starting another, but I'm sure I'll finish this one, to an extent, and see how it turns out.

[Flynt]

Huh,

I believe I am saying the opposite if I understand you correctly.

Can't say I have observed what your friend is explaining. You could get an effect like that on the edge of a cast shadow under a very warm light source in the penumbral shadow, but I can't see (or theoretically explain) it happening on a form shadow. Since light plays a factor in chroma (less light, less chroma) I don't think that could occur.

It could be part of a convention. Cool light on form with a warm shift to try and enliven the surface.

One might also see this effect in a photo where often the more intense colors appear at the halftones. This however would be due to the limitations of the photo.

Perhaps an example, either through explanation or an image showing this and I might be able to get to the bottom of it.

-Flynt

[Geuseppe]

Well, first off - I am not saying that I feel this way, I am just trying to get some information correct as to what my friend was saying - to be honest, looking at your body of work, I'm not at all questioning your observations, I would just like to know 'what he was saying'... ya know?

Here's an example - my first all-digital caricature done at the 2005 NCN (http://www.caricature.org) convention - I remember my friend had come over and said it's excellent color, seeing how I brought up the chromas and intensified the color right before the edges of the shadow - to be honest, I was using the eyedropper tool a bit, then intensifying it or subduing it to what I felt was there, and I just nodded and smiled. I've indicated areas that he mentioned (just ABOVE the green lines):

http://www.joebluhm.com/gfx/chroma_mike.jpg

- also, what does "penumbral" mean?

[Geuseppe]

FLYNT - also, I was wondering, with the drawing for your self-portrait there: are you on linen or a board? - is it pencil or charcoal? - and how large is it? - I'm working on some 18x24 canvases before I get some large pieces started, and sketching with a soft charcoal pencil, but the size restricts the amt. of detail I can put to it...

[Flynt]

Hey Geuseppe,

Um... Let’s start with Penumbral.

It's really just the pre-shadow. It is a zone of partial shadow that occurs before form shadows and before cast shadows. In form shadows it is much harder to observe and is often of little concern. In cast shadows its size sort of dictates how soft or hard the edge is going to be. Sometimes people mistake this softness for reflected light softening the cast shadow edge. This does occur a bit but most of the time it is an area receiving only a portion of the whole light source. If you had a perfect pin point light source it would not occur.

I have included a diagram which I think will help explain this.

http://img280.imageshack.us/img280/7581/penumbralshadow4or.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

About my drawing.

It is actually pencil on paper. I often do a careful drawing with pencil on paper to work out lots of problems. The pencil is easy to correct and allows for detail. I often do this fairly small. The one posted is probably around 14 by 17 inches. I then enlarge it up on a blueprint photocopy machine and do either a charcoal transfer or oil transfer onto the linen.

I have included an image of an oil transfer.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6521/oiltransfer27om.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I enjoyed the caricature. Thought the subtle value gradations made some nice full forms. I think this lends itself to help in the success of the piece. In terms of chroma it is not true to life. In either warm or cool light a decrease in chroma occurs as you move toward the shadow (it can reappear fairly intense some times in the shadow). I was originally taught that halftones before the shadow are where you find the highest chroma. Andrew Loomis says this in "Creative Illustration". I would stare into the tones before the shadow and stare until I could find the intense color. I would then try to put that in. Later I would find this was not true. What had happen is I was not seeing the whole field effect. Try squinting down so you are focusing on the whole and not the part. It works for both values and chroma (why shouldn't it they are both caused by the light). Yet this contradicted what I had been taught. So when I read Ted Seth Jacobs explaining what I had observed in his book "Light for the Artist" about higher chroma out in the light I was very relieved. I wasn't nuts.

So how could the contradiction exist? As far as I can tell it comes from heavy photo influences. Additionally, it is easier to detect chroma in middle values where hue is more obvious (they do have chroma just generally not as high as the lights) Often when I photograph my paintings it actually appears to reverse the subtle care I have taken with the chroma hierarchy (wish I could fix that).

At first trying to implement this might seem hard and can easily be taken too far so as to cause dull grey paintings.

Keep looking for this dulling of chroma. Take simple objects and put them under a light source. Squint down. Look for that hierarchy.

Hope this info is useful, I have enjoyed the interaction. :rendered:

-Flynt

[Geuseppe]

Wow. Excellent.

I'll take that in for a while (very understandable, but a lot to sink in).

For now I'll bug you for one more nugget: How does one go about an oil transfer? - is it pretty much the same as a charcoal or graphite transfer? ---I guess my concern is with that of the state of the oils being transferred (how wet, etc)

You're too kind for sharing your experience, man. :bow:

[zandernice]

Wow,

What a great read. I was thinking about what you said Flynt, about chroma dulling down at the point where light is highest when photographed but in real life it seems to be the opposite...

Im thinking that this is because the human eye picks up light thousands of times greater then what a photograph can possibly reproduce. When It reaches its exposure limit, it clips the highlighted area to White (not bright), and because of this, that clipped white is mixing with the middle hues/local color - effectivly dulling the chroma at the light source.

White+red/orange skin tone = duller chroma at the highlight of a photo.

DO you think this is a reasonable conclusion? Did it even make sense:)?



If this is true, than in digital illustration, one should have the areas around the shadow edge contain the most chroma (because your brights are being clipped by your computer monitor, printer, etc) , where as in painting, you have a higher dynamic lighting range to work with (cuz your painting in the real world), so one would apply the increased chroma higher up the value scale...


Arggg, my brain is exploding.

[Flynt]

Geuseppe,

For applying the oil paint for an oil transfer, dry brush the paint on. No medium or turps. Just try to spread enough to cover. The color to use in something for consideration because you are spreading it on so thin it will dry rapidly. I often use burnt umber (Very fast drying). If I need a bit more time I add burnt sienna (fast drying) or yellow ochre (average to fast drying).

Then I retrace the drawing on the other side with a sharp pencil (often a 4h).

Good luck.

zandernice,

Could be. To be honest I am not really sure. I am going to continue to reflect on it and see if I can come up with a logically theory. One thing don't seem quite right to me concerning what you have outlined. I would imagine a computer generated image shown digitally would be able to achieve a higher chroma because of working with light vs. light bouncing off pigment.

If you (our anyone else) comes up with anything I would definitely be interested in hearing it.

Until then I was just looking a real Rembrandt the other day and as usual his chroma drops as you move away form the light on the form.

Keep theorizing we may just get to the bottom of this just yet.

-Flynt

[Karim M.]

Hey guys I just wanted to thank you cause this is a really helpfull lesson in here!
Should be conserved for future generations or something :D
I think I learned quite something and thats cool. Cheers!

[[DAN]]

Fantaistic reading.