Ultimately, is it the goal of the Concept Artist to Draw without Reference? [Archive]

VirusArtist

August 29th, 2005, 06:13 AM

thats a definite YES in my oppinion

since a concept artist is hired to visualise fantasies of other people (directors etc), the mind of the artist needs to be without limits.

reference limits the artist by splitting his workflow into studying and then into drawing/painting.

an artist who has reached a level where reference is not needed anymore / has all the needed information stored in his memory can focus on the art exclusively (technique etc), thus getting more work done in the same period of time...

Etienne

John

August 29th, 2005, 06:49 AM

Well if you sit in a meeting you don't want to excuse yourself to browse google image search, so i think it's something you need. But the goal ... no. The goal is earning money i suppose, so the more things you draw well the better. Just one unemployed artists opinion.

jetpack42

August 29th, 2005, 07:01 AM

Ultimately, isn't that the goal of anybody trying to draw anything?

:dead:

dfacto

August 29th, 2005, 07:09 AM

Agree with Jetpack. ^

But I wouldn't say it's the only goal, just that it really helps when you have to pump out work. I know that the more refs I dig up and use, the slower I end up working, and with an actual art job, that would cost me money. That ain't no good. :S

MoP

August 29th, 2005, 07:22 AM

Like I said, it's a means to an end, not the goal :)

Prometheus|ANJ

August 29th, 2005, 08:58 AM

I guess the goal is to make an awesome pic as fast as possible... but I definately have more respect for people that draw out of their head, and the subjects I like (mechas and monsters) have little or no ref available anyways.

NoSeRider

August 29th, 2005, 09:15 AM

I've had people like Kevin Chen say photo reference is necessary to take bits and pieces from the photo and add that realism and detail to your drawing.

But I look at pieces made from Feng Zhu or Carlos Huante, under those Gnomon Videos, and absolutely no reference seems to be used.

In the Carlos Huante Video he even says, "If you don't use your imagination, then what good are you?!".....which craks me up :wink:

I just found this thread...which seems to be in the line of what I'm talking about:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31984

DavePalumbo

August 29th, 2005, 09:24 AM

I think the goal is to do the best work possible, and most likely no matter how good you ever are, your work will look better when reference was used. Every pro I've ever met whos work I respected was still using reference after decades of drawing and painting professionally. I never saw it as a flaw or weakness, but as humble acceptance that they don't know everything there is to know about light, anatomy, architecture, geology, biology, meteorology, clothing design, automotive design, botany, and about a million other things that you may encounter in doing a job. Some artists can do amazing work without any reference at all, but most any can do better work with, and it doesn't mean that they are not using their imaginations. That's where you have to find the ballance.

DSillustration

August 29th, 2005, 09:45 AM

NoSeRider

August 29th, 2005, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Robolus
A few months ago I was sitting with Marko in a Chinese Restaurant. While I was talking to him, he started to stare at the ceiling.

Rob: Hey, what are you looking at?

Marko: Oh sorry, the ornament there is very interesting, I think I will use it in one of my next Degenesis illustrations.

Rob: One moment Marko, you can look for two minutes at that thing and then you can use it later as REFERENCE?

Marko: Hmm, yes!

Rob: What the f..., I mean... HOW?

And then he told me that as a kid he thought that his Comic-and Art Heroes would NEVER use reference. The only way to become better was to train his visual memory every day.

Marko: It´s like a big-store catalogue with thousands of things in my head.

Rob: (speechless)

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31984

To a certain extent, me and Marko have the same philosophy.....I just haven't achieved what he's achieved :dead:

And then he told me that as a kid he thought that his Comic-and Art Heroes would NEVER use reference. The only way to become better was to train his visual memory every day.

That's the key part, and apparently Marko was a comic book junkie too.

Marko has photographic memory....usually Engineer type people have that kind of mentality.....my brother is an engineer.

Francis

August 29th, 2005, 10:19 AM

Ultimately, is it the goal of the Concept Artist to Draw without Reference?

No. The concept artist's job is to invent a world (based on information from a writer/game designer/production designer/whoever you are working for), and then create visual documentation for it - including characters, creatures, vehicles, environments, etc.

The degree of invention depends on what kind of project it is. For instance, if you're designing a game based on Roman gladiators, you're going to be relying on historical designs a lot. On the other hand, maybe you are working on a science fiction movie taking place in outer space with a lot of alien races.

In either case, you need to use reference to help you get the most out of your work. The roman gladiator example is obvious - you don't want to rely on your memory of what gladiators look like, and in fact using reference will allow you to build on what really existed, and put a new spin on it (if the art direction allows for that). Also, since you want your audience to recognize these guys as gladiators (and especially since some of them may know a lot more about gladiators than you do) you certainly better do your homework and gather plenty of reference. In the case of the alien movie, I guarantee you that there are creepier creatures running around for real than you can imagine right off the top of your head. Here again, you gather reference to inspire you, allow you to build on top of these examples and come up with something better than if you had started from scratch with no reference at all.

Short answer (at least in my humble opinion) - reference is a valuable tool. Drawing without it is not a goal, and is not even a very wise practice.

dfacto

August 29th, 2005, 10:25 AM

And then he told me that as a kid he thought that his Comic-and Art Heroes would NEVER use reference. The only way to become better was to train his visual memory every day.

Marko: It´s like a big-store catalogue with thousands of things in my head.

Jesus. I need to work on that...

chukw

August 29th, 2005, 10:42 AM

My answer? Hardly. Concept art covers a staggeringly broad range. The idea of being able to draw anything from memory is nice, but limiting. For example, I use a lot of ref for all the WWII jobs I work on, 'cause it's important to make it accurate. Nothing pisses me off more than a poorly-drawn nazi helmet, and you can see the fan favorites fuck 'em all the time. There are those on this forum who try to shame others for using ref- that's just stupid. The goal of every artist should be to have the ability to draw anything and everything. Know anatomy, perspective, composition, basic engineering and for god's sake, how to to do a good Google reference search!

Ilaekae

August 29th, 2005, 11:54 AM

Why do I get the feeling that we all have our zippers down waiting for a yardstick to float by?

The primary goal of a concept artist, or ANY artist for that matter, is to communicate a solution to a problem of some type. Let me be the first to congratulate all of you who can do that without ever looking at a single piece of referenc.

I myself, being of normal human abilities with 45 years experience and only a 1st percentile IQ, constantly need reference to verify what a 1936 Chrysler, a Pantagonian Two-headed Booby, and the internal workings of a 17th century wooden-geared timepiece look like. I still drink Drano once a day because I never made a note to remember what colonial children's underwear in Georgia looked like, not to mention being unable to recreate 15 typical gynandromorphs only from memory.

Knowledge is good. A great memory is good. Being a bit too much of a pompous ass to admit that you don't know what a pump valve from a 1879 2-8-8-4-2 steam engine looks like isn't. It simply proves your're a moron going downhill towards a blast furnace at 300 mph on a greased piece of 19th century non-vulcanized rainwear (which I can draw from memory...)

Get real, people. This is work. If it means farting upside down in a bat sanctuary wearing a frilly pink dress to get it done, do it. Don't tell me that it's not cool/professional to refuse to use a major tool to get my client's job done. He/she doesn't give a shit that I created that authentic replica of the Roman mint from memory, just whether it was done on time, on budget...and RIGHT.

I'm being paid $2.39 an hour to be a creative genius, not a fuckin' magician showing off his parlor tricks.

figure2

August 29th, 2005, 11:59 AM

...Every pro I've ever met whos work I respected was still using reference after decades of drawing and painting professionally. I never saw it as a flaw or weakness, but as humble acceptance that they don't know everything there is to know about light, anatomy, architecture, geology, biology, meteorology, clothing design, automotive design, botany, and about a million other things that you may encounter in doing a job. Some artists can do amazing work without any reference at all, but most any can do better work with, and it doesn't mean that they are not using their imaginations.NoSeRider,

I think there are situations where you can work without reference. When doing rough pencil concepts or storyboards, you probably want to work with a minimum of reference as this stage is meant to convey a direction rather than a fully-realized concept. As you start to get tighter, if you feel comfortable working without reference, more power to you. Most of us are more likely to get stuck without looking at something to guide us somewhere along the process. When that happens find whatever reference you need to make the piece better. Most professional artists will tell you that it's the results that count, not how you got there.

Also, do not allow anyone make you feel inferior about how you create art. Recognize that anyone who does that is just being a major-league asshole.

Elwell

August 29th, 2005, 12:14 PM

...
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What they said.

Bruce Pluto

August 29th, 2005, 12:33 PM

Some very good advice and info in these posts.

Yes the final goal to me in concept art would be to have an image look as if it came strait from someones imagination.

Now just a little opinion of mine. I was in a rather large bookstore some time back and came across an airbrush mag. It had a beautiful girl in red leather hotpants and top on the cover. At the bottom it read "This is not a photo". Look as hard as I may I could not find one spot where I could find a hint of a painting in this picture. Is this good or bad? Unless the painting was lifesize or bigger or put on a building or motor vehicle I just couldn't see the point in not having a photo instead. It was so realistic that it seemed to be traced ( or outlined) and tried to be made into the same photo referance. I just didn't understand where any creativity came in on this. The thing just didn't do anything for me.

I don't know. Maybe someone will post up and open my eyes up a bit here.
BP

Ilaekae

August 29th, 2005, 12:45 PM

Your eyes are already open, BP. I clean ovens better than my wife, but it doesn't do a damn thing for my creativity...

NoSeRider

August 29th, 2005, 01:12 PM

Why do I get the feeling that we all have our zippers down waiting for a yardstick to float by?

Well, I have to use a 12 inch ruler and I'm not an engineer....so sometimes the truth hurts when the girls start to snikr.

jmascho

August 29th, 2005, 01:29 PM

Keep in mind there is a large difference between using reference as a means of research, and using it to directly copy from.

Unless you memorize cultures/mechanics/environments from day one I don't see how anyone can create new ideas that people will relate to without giving it some substance. No offense to those that dont use ref, but if it's an integral part of making your designs stronger, why ignore it?

Main Loop

August 29th, 2005, 01:54 PM

sometimes i get the feeling that people ask these kinds of questions because they think its the secret to drawing like marko or one of these guys.. thats not the reason they're good..

Cthogua

August 29th, 2005, 02:07 PM

I totally agree with the sentiment that has been posted so far that in the end it doesn't matter how, or with what you made your image as long as you/your client is happy with it.

Visual Memory is still basically a kind of reference. Especially when it comes down to talking about someone like Marko who seems to have a much better visual memory than most of us. Is there really any difference in taking a bunch of mental notes and being able to remember them clearly for use in a drawing or taking a picture of something for use later as reference? The little conversation with Marko that was posted where he remarked that he liked a fixture and was going to use it in a degenesis illo...How is that different than seeing a picture of style of helmet and saying, that would be cool to use in my next knight painting, so I'll right-cick and save ? He didn't magic the fixture out of his ass, it was something that really existed, he's just better able to recall it later. What is important, in terms of being an artist, was that he noticed the fixture, and imagined a place for it. Marko uses reference...it's just his freakishly good visual memory instead of the pics the rest of us use. Its something to aspire to, but theres no sense in lifting a car to change a tire just because some people can.

Also, imagination isn't about knowing alot about anything, infact it isn't about "knowing" at all. You could know how every skintone looked under every light condition, and all of the varieties of facial structure, but that doesn't have anything to do with creating interesting looking characters. Imagination is about reassembling what information you do have in an interesting and, hopefully previously unseen manner. That's really what makes someone a great "concept" artist

my 2 cents

AngryScientist

August 29th, 2005, 02:08 PM

I agree with a lot of what's being said here. Personally I have.. issues when dealing with reference, but on the other hand have gigs and gigs of reference which I go through when I feel uninspired. Sometimes using ref helps you get the job done, but it's usually best to only look at a pic for a few seconds and then reinvent it. Just my 2 cents.

darth massacre

August 29th, 2005, 02:23 PM

I think most people covered it.

If you can draw something without references, then its because of experience or familiarity with a subject.

Ultimately a concept artist's goal is to make ideas workable and believeable. Being a "know it all" is the job of an encyclopedia.

figure2

August 29th, 2005, 02:53 PM

Sometimes using ref helps you get the job done, but it's usually best to only look at a pic for a few seconds and then reinvent it.If that works for you, great but you can't standardize the creative process for other artists. One artist may indeed need only a quick glance at the source image while another artist may need to refer back to the reference periodically while working and yet another may need to keep the reference in view throughout the process.

The only thing that counts in the end is that the finished piece looks great and no copyright laws were broken.

Prometheus|ANJ

August 29th, 2005, 06:58 PM

I think we need to differentiate between:

1: Using reference straight in the image (montage)
2: Copying from reference
3: Mutating details from reference
4: Memorizing the reference then (maybe much later) draw something from that.

I prefer using # 3 and 4. I think it's too hard to find reference that fits straight into my designs without looking malplaced, and I'm much much faster at drawing out of my head, and the result ends up more dynamic.

Of course the end result might be similar regardless of how you use reference, and the client may be happy. That's one thing.

The other thing is how much the image and concept can be credited to you. Are you the concept artist, or is that the guy who made the reference? The more you rely on reference without changing anything, the less of a concept artist you are, IMO. You're not coming up with a new solution you're just piggybacking on others. Still, you might be a good artist and make clients happy, I just question the concept art part here.

If you paint a very accurate pump valve from a 1879 2-8-8-4-2 steam engine lying on a field of grass, you might be a conceptual artist (or dadaist). To be a concept artist I think you need to give the pump some cool mecha boots, an oversized weapon and boobs... and maybe some tentacles, shoulderpads, and a gasmask... and glowing eyes. Yeehaw now we're talking! CHUUU-CHUUUUU! Go my little proud steamwarrior, go!

dfacto

August 29th, 2005, 07:04 PM

^ Agree. You're not concepting if you're just copying. You have to make something "new" when concepting, even if it's the same old cliche garbage.

drDepth

August 29th, 2005, 09:51 PM

Is the goal of the concept artist to draw without any photo reference?

When is photo reference appropriate?

If you think it they will come...if you paint it they will come...from creation...what will be created to draw the people near.
A creator conjures up in one mind to imprint mental images permanently upon any surface...hence, history is made.
Just mark'in up the board...
drDepth

brokk

August 29th, 2005, 10:01 PM

The more you rely on reference without changing anything, the less of a concept artist you are, IMO.

THIS is the reason why I'm now trying to draw more from imagination, using reference as -reference-. I used to copy photos and copy just what I saw, trying not to alter anything. I got fed up because it wasn't helping me learn any sort of design.
Maybe if I copy a photo it looks more... realistic. But I want to learn how to create my own things, how to design the subject, and how to design the image (composition, presentation, etc). Reference is just another tool, I try to use it as a rough guide or a way to study a subject. I use it because if I draw only from my imagination, I'm not getting the results I want. I dont get them with using reference either but I get closer, sometimes.

Elwell

August 29th, 2005, 10:23 PM

If you think it they will come...if you paint it they will come...from creation...what will be created to draw the people near.
A creator conjures up in one mind to imprint mental images permanently upon any surface...hence, history is made.
Just mark'in up the board...
drDepth
Worst first post ever. :dead:

darth massacre

August 29th, 2005, 11:05 PM

Worst first post ever. :dead:
I cannot disagree. :yayca:

Magic Man

August 29th, 2005, 11:07 PM

Being able to draw without reference can only help this end. But being able to draw without reference is not the goal.

Nuff said.

maestro_612

September 1st, 2005, 03:19 AM

Okay, I didn't read everyone's responses, but I think Iain McCaig, concept artist for Star Wars Episodes I-III, said it best: "Your first drawing has the thrill of imagination, the next the authority of your research. Your final drawing combines the two, resulting in something familiar, yet strange."

-quoted from The Art of Star Wars: Episode II, page 85. :rendered:

Magic Man

September 1st, 2005, 06:57 AM

What they said.

I agree with what Tristan is agreeing with.

figure2

September 3rd, 2005, 10:06 PM

I had put this thread out of my mind but today a memory from art school was jogged loose. We had an assignment in my 2nd year to cut out about 20 pictures from catalogs and glue them down to a piece of drawing paper leaving a space to the right or left. The objects were to be manufactured objects such as toys, appliances, tools, etc. In the empty space, we were to draw each object from a different view and perspective. I highly recommend this little exercise for conceptual and spacial thinking.

I brought this up because some of the previous comments in this thread seemed to suggest that copying the reference literally was the only possible way to use it. That's far from the truth. There are more intellegent ways to use source images as my old art school assignment shows.

Main Loop

September 3rd, 2005, 10:20 PM