NEW to COREL PAINTER - HELP ? critiques ? The Temple of the Moon

[Alisa]

I posted this in : Sketches and Works in Progress (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=29) , however, I have discovered the critique forum. Hurray !

:yayca:

anyway...
HI there ! Okay, I've just downloaded the trial version of Corel Painter IX, to try it out and create one painting with it, to experiment with Corel Painter IX. Obviously, I'm new, and I absolutely am desperate for critiques, comments, etc, or tips on how to use corel painter ! I've started this piece ' The Temple of the Moon ' ( the temple of the moon is found in World of Warcraft ), as I was inspired by the game, I suppose. So, I started this in Sketcher, Java-based client/server system that allows you to paint and chat, ( found at www.Artgrounds.com (http://www.artgrounds.com) ) and now I've decided to finish it in Corel Painter IX. I may go over the parts I have already painted with brushes from Corel Painter IX, but I haven't decided yet. I have a few questions: what brush do you suggest me to use ? Can you download brushes to use in Corel Painter IX (if I were to buy the software) ? Also, if you have any ideas or annything to add to this painting, critiques, comments, they would be outstandingly appreciated, as I am a learning painter !!! Well, without further ado, here is my 'Temple of the Moon.'

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/3815/templemoon3eg.jpg

[madster]

Painter is like any other software application, as far as what you are supposed to do with it.
Your works should be conceptualized, rough sketched, refined linework, painting and detailing.

Brushes are a matter of individual taste, and some of the most talented Painter artists use no more than 3-4 custom brushes all the time.

Almost all the brushes you download are just variations that you can create yourself in Painter.

There are a some very excellent tutorials out there, as well as some great books on mastering the various effects available to you in Painter, like Watercolor, Liquid Ink, etc. If you do a Web Search for "Painter Tutorials," you will have all the lessons you need to keep you learning for awhile.

The picture you've posted is too indistinct to really make much comment beyond noting that there is no real detail or shape to anything. The tree looks really weird the way the leaves just sprout out of the top, with no branches anywhere. The bridge-like curvy thing sprouting out of the woman(?)'s back makes no visual sense, and the purple building in the BG is pretty flat looking, with no clean lines to define shape and depth.

Maybe you can put a new layer on top of all this, and draw a clean linework of what is what. Try using a Pen Tool, with a Scratchboard tip at a small size, so your lines are sharp and distinct. This will make it better for you paint shadows, highlights, and details, because you will have some sort of a "roadmap" of where you are going with this piece.

~M

[Darkvision]

Acctualy I really like this piece. I think the sketchy style really gives it an extra something. You have to be a good artist to be able to draw like this. To not worry about the look of each stroke and just see a final product.

I think in a way it can be seen almost liek a spirtual experience. Your nnot being told whats there. Your being stimulated into thinking. Its like modern art. The idea is not to show a single object but to create an aura.
I would quite happily pay for this peice.
There's no "Road Map", just what you get out of it. If you haven't the imagination to get anytihng from it then that, Madster, is your loss.

For me it sums up a whole civalisation, ancient, powerful and strong, Worshipping nature and the moon.

Stop annalysing and just start imagining.

[madster]

Thank you, DarkVision, but please try to address your replies to the original poster, and the piece they've submitted, rather than trying to tell me, or others, how you think they should appreciate a piece...That is not the purpose of a critique, nor of this forum.

Critiques ARE about analyzing...

~M

[Red_Rook]

erm in the beginning try knocking the lines on a multiply layer in the beginning, and making the canvas a midtone, i know it helps me alot. As for brushes, painter has a bajillion. I know i like the think n thin markers for lines
and for acctually painting with, try vine charcoal and oil(play with the paper textures for smoothness) Try that, it might help :)

[Darkvision]

Yes. But you can't annalyse as some sort of static item. Art is about the soul that gives out. About the life it contains.

YOU can't look at the cells, you must look at the whole

[dogfood]

Yes. But you can't annalyse as some sort of static item. Art is about the soul that gives out. About the life it contains.

YOU can't look at the cells, you must look at the whole
If you're right, we're all wasting our time here.

Somehow, I don't think you're right. Somethings are appealing, others, not as much. If you can't give valid analysis, you will have trouble getting better.

[Alisa]

Painter is like any other software application, as far as what you are supposed to do with it.
Your works should be conceptualized, rough sketched, refined linework, painting and detailing.

Brushes are a matter of individual taste, and some of the most talented Painter artists use no more than 3-4 custom brushes all the time.

Almost all the brushes you download are just variations that you can create yourself in Painter.

There are a some very excellent tutorials out there, as well as some great books on mastering the various effects available to you in Painter, like Watercolor, Liquid Ink, etc. If you do a Web Search for "Painter Tutorials," you will have all the lessons you need to keep you learning for awhile.

The picture you've posted is too indistinct to really make much comment beyond noting that there is no real detail or shape to anything. The tree looks really weird the way the leaves just sprout out of the top, with no branches anywhere. The bridge-like curvy thing sprouting out of the woman(?)'s back makes no visual sense, and the purple building in the BG is pretty flat looking, with no clean lines to define shape and depth.

Maybe you can put a new layer on top of all this, and draw a clean linework of what is what. Try using a Pen Tool, with a Scratchboard tip at a small size, so your lines are sharp and distinct. This will make it better for you paint shadows, highlights, and details, because you will have some sort of a "roadmap" of where you are going with this piece.

~M


Haha, yes, thanks for all of your help ! I do suppose it is quite a mess, eh ? I'll try to fix the tree, but I am working from a reference, so it was confusing. In a video game, I guess the trees do not really have any shape ?... Yes... the birdge, its going to be behind the woman... I'll try to touch up the purple building on another layer ? Thank-you for the solid critique !

erm in the beginning try knocking the lines on a multiply layer in the beginning, and making the canvas a midtone, i know it helps me alot. As for brushes, painter has a bajillion. I know i like the think n thin markers for lines
and for acctually painting with, try vine charcoal and oil(play with the paper textures for smoothness) Try that, it might help :)

Thanks ! That helps a lot !! I'll try using the thick and thin markers...

If you're right, we're all wasting our time here.

Somehow, I don't think you're right. Somethings are appealing, others, not as much. If you can't give valid analysis, you will have trouble getting better.

I somewhat agree... I think it is nice to here someone likes my drawing, but I would really like to hear someone help me with it, to make it better, but not simply say it sucks.... to improve it yeah..... :)

[Red_Rook]

Yes. But you can't annalyse as some sort of static item. Art is about the soul that gives out. About the life it contains.

YOU can't look at the cells, you must look at the whole


uh yeah you can. Thats what all these crits are about. Is trying to improve the technical aspects, as tied to a certain convention, nobody is debating the arts worth.

When you really break it down art is a static item, in this case its a series of brush strokes that are meant to represent a certain thing, the advice offered is for trying to convey that idea better.

He was asking for advice on the program and thats all that was given. Even if this was some form of modern art, which it isnt really we can still crit him on the use of colour and his composition. There is definetly some things that are more apealing to the eye then others. Hes deliberatly asking for critiques, why dont ya let people give them, nobody is debating the psychological or artistic interpretation of it, we are just criting the technical side. Madster was just giving him honest advice.

And you CAN draw yourself a visual roadmap, infact i think it would be a very good idea to grab the thick n thin marker for instance and re-ink the piece, making sure your perspective lines up and such, after that make sure your values read properly, and that you build up contrast, not just in light and dark but in hue, and saturation aswell i think that would help alot. Dont be afraid to use more desaturated colours for your midtones, and make sure you know where your lights coming from.


edit: woah i was outposted, dogfood, thanks, far more eloquent :)

edit 2: the thick n thin marker brush ONLY goes darker, so your gunna have trouble painting with it, but its cool for lines :)

[Alisa]

uh yeah you can. Thats what all these crits are about. Is trying to improve the technical aspects, as tied to a certain convention, nobody is debating the arts worth.

When you really break it down art is a static item, in this case its a series of brush strokes that are meant to represent a certain thing, the advice offered is for trying to convey that idea better.

He was asking for advice on the program and thats all that was given. Even if this was some form of modern art, which it isnt really we can still crit him on the use of colour and his composition. There is definetly some things that are more apealing to the eye then others. Hes deliberatly asking for critiques, why dont ya let people give them, nobody is debating the psychological or artistic interpretation of it, we are just criting the technical side. Madster was just giving him honest advice.

And you CAN draw yourself a visual roadmap, infact i think it would be a very good idea to grab the thick n thin marker for instance and re-ink the piece, making sure your perspective lines up and such, after that make sure your values read properly, and that you build up contrast, not just in light and dark but in hue, and saturation aswell i think that would help alot. Dont be afraid to use more desaturated colours for your midtones, and make sure you know where your lights coming from.


Thanks so much.. I really do appreciate that people actually bothered to help me out !! It seems as if this whole painting is a complete and utter mess, I just needed help sorting things out... but I did not intend to start a war here... :^^;:
I'll deffinately check the thick and thin markers... and try to sort out my linework on a different layer. Maybe I could make it a little more 'civilized.' I think I just get trapped in the idea of light and shadow and dont think about line :[

[madster]

Alisa, you did absolutely nothing wrong in posting this here and asking questions. You're fine, don't sweat it (referring to your :^^;: ) :^^:

"The Basics" are something everyone continuously works on. Sometimes those who visit these forums forget what the purpose of critiques is, and either become thin-skinned when they disagree with observations made, or wander off into the esoteric aesthetics of "imagination" and "intent," as opposed to "viewability" and "technical execution." It's no reflection on you or your work.

The focus here is on helping you over any Compositional/Design hurdles you may have, and, if possible, help you with the sometimes steep learning curve that digital applications have, as compared to traditional media.

Before your trial with Painter expires, do try the Mosaic effect, and try at least one piece in Liquid Ink, with the elevation cranked up to at least 50 - 60 %. I'm sure you'll enjoy the effect!
http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/244/cloneofinthepink6am.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
(and yes, this funky flamingo was my first practice piece with Liquid Ink...LOL!)

~M

[Magic Man]

Painter is arguably the most natural feeling sketch and paint program out there, the brush engine in the newest edition is amazingly fast and supple allowing the widest range of brush types I've seen. Couple that with extreme configurability and you've got a pretty damn good program for creating artwork.

I would however also have photoshop on the side for image alteration and a few other things (no...not lense flair) since it is for me anyway much more intuitive to use for alteration. I fins Painter's image alteration commands very tinkery to use.

Also, as Madster said, when you're using brushes, stick to 3 or 4, otherwise your image will have a very thrown together unprofessional look. The brushes behave very differently from Photoshop's, and are a lot more powerful, there are some which als blend as well as add paint as you stroke, feeling like physical medium.

Take time to get used to this, and I'd recommend Don Seegmiller's painter book to get used to it.

[Alisa]

Alisa, you did absolutely nothing wrong in posting this here and asking questions. You're fine, don't sweat it (referring to your :^^;: ) :^^:

"The Basics" are something everyone continuously works on. Sometimes those who visit these forums forget what the purpose of critiques is, and either become thin-skinned when they disagree with observations made, or wander off into the esoteric aesthetics of "imagination" and "intent," as opposed to "viewability" and "technical execution." It's no reflection on you or your work.

The focus here is on helping you over any Compositional/Design hurdles you may have, and, if possible, help you with the sometimes steep learning curve that digital applications have, as compared to traditional media.

Before your trial with Painter expires, do try the Mosaic effect, and try at least one piece in Liquid Ink, with the elevation cranked up to at least 50 - 60 %. I'm sure you'll enjoy the effect!
{pic was here}
~M

Great ! I'll try that. It looks interesting... thanks for the reassurance... I wasn't sure if I should come back. I tried working on it and listening to some of everyone's ideas... The thick and thin markers didn't really work out.. and I'm still having troubles with the trees, but I'm trying to block in the colours. I 'm going to check out some tutorials, and try those excersises as you have said. Thanks for all your help !!! I'll stop working on this and go back to it later, I guess... it's not really coming along well, but once I take in everything everyone has said here, I'm sure I'll put it to good use !!

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/3654/templemoon36ws.th.jpg (http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=templemoon36ws.jpg)

{imageshack re-sized it)
Painter is arguably the most natural feeling sketch and paint program out there, the brush engine in the newest edition is amazingly fast and supple allowing the widest range of brush types I've seen. Couple that with extreme configurability and you've got a pretty damn good program for creating artwork.

I would however also have photoshop on the side for image alteration and a few other things (no...not lense flair) since it is for me anyway much more intuitive to use for alteration. I find Painter's image alteration commands very tinkery to use.

Also, as Madster said, when you're using brushes, stick to 3 or 4, otherwise your image will have a very thrown together unprofessional look. The brushes behave very differently from Photoshop's, and are a lot more powerful, there are some which als blend as well as add paint as you stroke, feeling like physical medium.

Take time to get used to this, and I'd recommend Don Seegmiller's painter book to get used to it.
I have photoshop, and I'll play around with that too ! I've been using an accrylic brush to block in the colours... and then I was going to use oils. Is that wrong ? I wouldnt do that on a real painting.. but I'm still quite confused with Painter.. there are so many options !!


Thanks, again !!

[madster]

I think it is having all of those options that make Painter so intimidating sometimes!

This piece IS improving, but perhaps it is best as a "warming-up" piece to help you get acquainted with Painter. You ALWAYS have the option to start over again with it, if it is a subject that you would like to work on and refine.

When it starts to become aggravating, walking away from it for a bit is usually your best bet. Sometimes, you put it on a back burner, and when you come back with "fresh eyes," you can look at it more objectively, and see things you might have missed before.

The curvy bridge is really interesting now, in the way it helps steer the eye around the piece. The tree still needs help, but not today...

Check out some of the tutorials over here (http://www.designertoday.com/tabindex-13/tabid-27/DesktopDefault.aspx) at Designertoday.com. They range from really easy to somewhat complex, but are really good at helping you get comfortable with the program.
Here (http://www.allgraphicdesign.com/painter.html) is one of the best listings of Painter tuts, although a few links are now dead...

Don Seegmiller's book is good, but can be somewhat unwieldy for someone new to Painter. I'd more recommend the Painter WOW book, as it walks you through the various effects with some nice step-by-step tuts, as well as some great visual inspirations. The watercolor tutorial is almost priceless!

I too, keep Photoshop open when I'm in Painter. PS does somethings with just a click or two, that Painter either can't do properly, or does the most round-about way possible...Image resizing always comes to mind first...lol!

Most of all, have fun! That's the main purpose of demo apps, is for you to enjoy them!

~M

[dogfood]

Alisa, you get several stars for your attitude. More than almost anything else, it will increase the speed of your improvement (wow, that was a bad sentence!).

It is really tough to learn a new media while you're learning new skills. As an exercise, I like to paint an apple or tree or something else similarly simple in order to get the feel of the software (or any new media). Your image looks pretty complicated, so this advice may help (though your mileage may vary).

Oh, here are those stars: :star: :star: :star: :star: :star: :star: :star:

[Red_Rook]

woah way better already, huge improvement, it looks far more cohesive now, its all firmly planted in the same environment.

Its a complicated perspective you have going there, with all those curves it can be really hard to judge were what is meant to go. If you hold shift and make a brush stroke itl keep it at a set angle verticle horizontal or angles exactly between those i think that might help sometimes. But it seems like you almost havea bit of fish eye type thing going there so it might not help much.

I cant stress enough how much more dynamic you can make your piece with a good direct light source, work out whats making light now an see where it hits and what parts are in shadow, you can use light and shadow like that to really help turn your form, withought having to draw lines to do it. Like i can totally see the thing the elf sculpture is holding giving off light, and that would cause, like her horehead the bridge of her nose and her chest and all that other stuff to be in the light and respectivly other stuff in the shadow. Your light will also affect your colours and how they work, so think about defining some really clear light and shadows.

acctually, you know what, read proms tutorial if you havent already, there is a WEALTH of information crammed into that its not very long but it will help you loads! Prom's tut (http://itchstudios.com/psg/art_tut.htm) good luck, your definetly on the right track. :teeth: :yayca:


edit: something just occured to me, try cropping it now, to get rid of all your white space and really frame it, itl help you see it in a whole new light.

[Alisa]

I'm sorry... I just could NOT help but reply... again ! ;)

I think it is having all of those options that make Painter so intimidating sometimes!

This piece IS improving, but perhaps it is best as a "warming-up" piece to help you get acquainted with Painter. You ALWAYS have the option to start over again with it, if it is a subject that you would like to work on and refine.

When it starts to become aggravating, walking away from it for a bit is usually your best bet. Sometimes, you put it on a back burner, and when you come back with "fresh eyes," you can look at it more objectively, and see things you might have missed before.

The curvy bridge is really interesting now, in the way it helps steer the eye around the piece. The tree still needs help, but not today...

Check out some of the tutorials over here (http://www.designertoday.com/tabindex-13/tabid-27/DesktopDefault.aspx) at Designertoday.com. They range from really easy to somewhat complex, but are really good at helping you get comfortable with the program.
Here (http://www.allgraphicdesign.com/painter.html) is one of the best listings of Painter tuts, although a few links are now dead...

Don Seegmiller's book is good, but can be somewhat unwieldy for someone new to Painter. I'd more recommend the Painter WOW book, as it walks you through the various effects with some nice step-by-step tuts, as well as some great visual inspirations. The watercolor tutorial is almost priceless!

I too, keep Photoshop open when I'm in Painter. PS does somethings with just a click or two, that Painter either can't do properly, or does the most round-about way possible...Image resizing always comes to mind first...lol!

Most of all, have fun! That's the main purpose of demo apps, is for you to enjoy them!

~M

Yeah, I think that's a good idea... I will just use this painting to get aquainted with painter, and maybe in a couple months I'll look back on it and laugh ! Lol ! I'll def. try taking a break, coming back to it, looking at it in a different light. That's a great idea ! I'm sort of liking how the bridge looks, but I still think I like the idea of having more detailed ... everything 'filled in.' But painting quickly, and just trying to 'grasp' the idea is helping me a lot. I'll look for references of trees another day... I guess they are simply not my area of expertise, and I should try to improve a bit with them !! I'll try doing a painting of a tree to get even further familiarized with one of the brushes... or a few of them. Taking a look at those tutorials (designertoday), a few of them seem really helpful !! Just basic exercises, you know ? I like that... not too complicated to figure out and practice. There are simple tutorials like... 'Mixing Colours.' I've bookmarked that page. LOL. All Graphic Design looks like a LOAD of fun ! There's so many tutorial links there. Loves it ! I think I will wait to try Don Seegmiller's book, after I get 'aquainted' with this program, but if I can, I will def. check the Painter WOW book.
Once I learn a few of the basics, I'm sure it will be a LOT more fun for me ! LOL.
Alisa, you get several stars for your attitude. More than almost anything else, it will increase the speed of your improvement (wow, that was a bad sentence!).

It is really tough to learn a new media while you're learning new skills. As an exercise, I like to paint an apple or tree or something else similarly simple in order to get the feel of the software (or any new media). Your image looks pretty complicated, so this advice may help (though your mileage may vary).

Oh, here are those stars: :star: :star: :star: :star: :star: :star: :star:


I just want to learn !! :confident I will def. try the apple or tree, as I said in my reply to madster ! I'll do that before I go back to this piece, it is really complicated as you say !! Thanks for the advice ! Stars, yay !


woah way better already, huge improvement, it looks far more cohesive now, its all firmly planted in the same environment.

Its a complicated perspective you have going there, with all those curves it can be really hard to judge were what is meant to go. If you hold shift and make a brush stroke itl keep it at a set angle verticle horizontal or angles exactly between those i think that might help sometimes. But it seems like you almost havea bit of fish eye type thing going there so it might not help much.

I cant stress enough how much more dynamic you can make your piece with a good direct light source, work out whats making light now an see where it hits and what parts are in shadow, you can use light and shadow like that to really help turn your form, withought having to draw lines to do it. Like i can totally see the thing the elf sculpture is holding giving off light, and that would cause, like her horehead the bridge of her nose and her chest and all that other stuff to be in the light and respectivly other stuff in the shadow. Your light will also affect your colours and how they work, so think about defining some really clear light and shadows.

acctually, you know what, read proms tutorial if you havent already, there is a WEALTH of information crammed into that its not very long but it will help you loads! Prom's tut (http://itchstudios.com/psg/art_tut.htm) good luck, your definetly on the right track. :teeth: :yayca:


edit: something just occured to me, try cropping it now, to get rid of all your white space and really frame it, itl help you see it in a whole new light.


The shift thing seems like it's really going to help ! Thanks ! But you're right about the fish eye thing.. We'll have to see how it goes ! ALL my friend has been saying when I go to paint with her (not about this piece, but when we paint watercolours at the brook), is LIGHT AND SHADOW, light and shadow. And now I hear you saying it again ! And I'm greatful ! Because I agree, light changes everything completely, and I should focus more on where the highlights and 'lowlights' and shadow is after I block in basic shapes... You're right about that ! WOW... that's A LOT of things to study on that tutorial.... LOVES IT. I'll bookmark it, and take it slowly... I don't want to rush through the whole thing and not learn anything !!!

Ah, cropping it will help me see it differently.. I'll do it in photoshop...



All I can say is thank-you guys SO much... you're comments seem to be very caring and helpful, so I'm bookmarking this page to come back to it ! I realize this is all just going to take time... and practice, and I'm willing to do it !! I just need a little 'extra advice' sometimes... It helps to get insight from someone else, and solid comments like yours that have helped me oh so much !! You're all so nice.