Realism practice/hopeful contest entry

[Playboy Moogle]

Ok so I've posted this at two other forums I visit and frankly none of them gave me the critique I needed. One forum is just inactive the other I get ignored in the forum for reasons I can't figure out.
But I'd really like critiques on this piece.

I'm entering this into a contest over on gaiaonline.com.
I haven't done realism for awhile nor have I used real media so this was a big expirement for me right now.
However I really want this piece to turn out...nicely I suppose. So I need your help. Techniques for texturing fabric and hair, going about it all. Facial proportions.

Critique me harshly because I need it.

Mechanical Pencil with .7lead, Generic white eraser and regular computer paper.

About five refrences have been used thus far for the face.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y97/Aochii/p1.png

[Kane702]

There isn't to much to reply on. The neck is off. The head doesn't just fit on it. The rendering on the lips look very good! Try to develop the bridge of the noise by the shadow on the opposite side.

[Elwell]

The individual features are rendered OK, but they don't relate to each other or the shape of the face properly. Imagine you where to sculpt a head out of clay. Would you model each feature in detail and then assemble them like Mr. Potato Head? Of course not. You would start with a big, roughly head shaped ball of clay and add smaller and smaller pieces, building up the forms, and only get to the details once the underlying structure and proportions were correct. You should approach drawing in exactly the same way.

[madster]

I wouldn't rush to enter this in any competition just yet.
The face is flatter than an iron, overall. No cheekbones, no nose, no decent eye definition.

The eye is terrible. There is no upper eyelid, and the eye itself is merely a symbolic rendering of what an eye should look like. The eyebrow is half done, too wide at the front, non-existant at the back.

The eyepatch is a joke. Do a Google Image search, and get a realistic idea of what it is you are trying to render. NO eyepatch has the strap coming down the side of the face like that. NONE, nada, ne rien...

The curvy thing you drew to represent the tip of the nose and the nostrils is crooked, over-exaggerated, and off-center in relationship to the philtrum and its surrounding ridges above the lips...

Which brings us to the lips...You've rendered them upside down, plain and simple. Even Melanie Griffith, with her renowned "fish lips" couldn't get this effect, no matter how much collagen she injected. The upper lip is just NOT smaller in size than the lower lip, period.
http://www.hait.ac.il/staff/ShlomoA/Photography/images-archive/new1/Elinor%20Carucci%20My%20Mother%20Lips%201997.jpg
http://www.throth.com/images/Sals-Lips.jpg
http://ubbt.moby.com/userfiles/2431974-lips%20001.jpg
http://www.fdpmu.com/emma%20before%20lips%2011-22-02.jpg
http://lips.busythumbs.com/users/a/ahemes/lips/images/Lips_004.jpg
Catch my drift, here?

Basic facial anatomy, and reference pictures should be your primary concern for this piece...

~M

[beyond_the_forest]

you should already know the eye is slightly too large and in realism one of the main problems are the eyes being to large or misplaced...
another thing is...when you just slap an eye patch on a face, it looks to perfessionals, like you were unable to get the other eye symmetrical..

the lips however, i really don't feel are too bad (actually i mean they are very good), most of the people in the reference photos above, are of caucasians, and there are many minorities who have lips shaped like that...unfortunatly you've greatly exaggerated them, and should be tweaked a little...what i think of when i see the lips is scarlett johansson, maybe take a look at her, and make changes where you deem necessary


oh and one more thing...the right nostril...is VERY pug, and the top of the "hole" should be dropped a millimeter or so..

[DSillustration]

The individual features are rendered OK, but they don't relate to each other or the shape of the face properly. Imagine you where to sculpt a head out of clay. Would you model each feature in detail and then assemble them like Mr. Potato Head? Of course not. You would start with a big, roughly head shaped ball of clay and add smaller and smaller pieces, building up the forms, and only get to the details once the underlying structure and proportions were correct. You should approach drawing in exactly the same way.

well put !!!

[endercoskun]

in addition to what have already been said, her eyes seem flat and lifeless. remember the eye is spherical, and wet; there will probably be very strong highlights. also the outlines around the eye are too pronounced. there shouldn't be a single thick line around the eye, it makes the eyelids seem as if they have no thickness.

[Playboy Moogle]

Thank you for the helpful comments and critiques.

On the eyepatch comments~
first commet: Actually there are eyepatches that cross like that. Ever heard of the Gothic Lolita fashion industry? Three strapped eyepatches and sometimes four strapped eyepatches are very common in that style. Usually completed with a red cross on the patch. One strap goes under the ear another goes above and the third goes across the forehead.

Second comment: Actually the eyepatch is part of the character's outfit for the contest but I can see why you would say that. Thank you for the help on the lips and nose. I shall look up some photos of Scarlett and work from there.
And the eye is indeed messed up. It was noticed before posting and has been being worked on since the posting.


I also apologize for taking so long to respond. My internet connection was being very slow and i'm slightly impatient >.<

[beyond_the_forest]

Thank you for the helpful comments and critiques.

On the eyepatch comments~
first commet: Actually there are eyepatches that cross like that. Ever heard of the Gothic Lolita fashion industry? Three strapped eyepatches and sometimes four strapped eyepatches are very common in that style. Usually completed with a red cross on the patch. One strap goes under the ear another goes above and the third goes across the forehead.

Second comment: Actually the eyepatch is part of the character's outfit for the contest but I can see why you would say that. Thank you for the help on the lips and nose. I shall look up some photos of Scarlett and work from there.
And the eye is indeed messed up. It was noticed before posting and has been being worked on since the posting.


I also apologize for taking so long to respond. My internet connection was being very slow and i'm slightly impatient >.<


awesome... i'd suggest loosly drawing both eyes in so you know where the socket is and how the patch would be shaped....but really i don't think it matters lol

hope you win ;) and if you don't,...i hope you still feel happy with the result

[beyond_the_forest]

I wouldn't rush to enter this in any competition just yet.
The face is flatter than an iron, overall. No cheekbones, no nose, no decent eye definition.

The eye is terrible. There is no upper eyelid, and the eye itself is merely a symbolic rendering of what an eye should look like. The eyebrow is half done, too wide at the front, non-existant at the back.

The eyepatch is a joke. Do a Google Image search, and get a realistic idea of what it is you are trying to render. NO eyepatch has the strap coming down the side of the face like that. NONE, nada, ne rien...

The curvy thing you drew to represent the tip of the nose and the nostrils is crooked, over-exaggerated, and off-center in relationship to the philtrum and its surrounding ridges above the lips...

Which brings us to the lips...You've rendered them upside down, plain and simple. Even Melanie Griffith, with her renowned "fish lips" couldn't get this effect, no matter how much collagen she injected. The upper lip is just NOT smaller in size than the lower lip, period.
http://www.hait.ac.il/staff/ShlomoA/Photography/images-archive/new1/Elinor%20Carucci%20My%20Mother%20Lips%201997.jpg
http://www.throth.com/images/Sals-Lips.jpg
http://ubbt.moby.com/userfiles/2431974-lips%20001.jpg
http://www.fdpmu.com/emma%20before%20lips%2011-22-02.jpg
http://lips.busythumbs.com/users/a/ahemes/lips/images/Lips_004.jpg
Catch my drift, here?

Basic facial anatomy, and reference pictures should be your primary concern for this piece...

~M


i'd like to point out some "buzz" statements if i may

"The eye is terrible."
"The eyepatch is a joke."

don't you think you're a little...nasty?

[madster]

Nope. Frank and honest. Nasty would be to make a comparison to something in order to get the point across, or to call the artist's I.Q., skill level, or personality into question.
I simply point out visual discontinuities without flowery adjectives or soothing words, so that there is no misunderstanding. Bad is bad, why sugar coat it? I don't insult the artist's ability, I merely address the basic principles and elements of Composition and Design, with a minimum of exteraneous chit-chat.
Simply observing that something is rendered very badly is not nasty...except for those of thin skin or an overly Politically Correct nature.

Any image search for "eyepatch" will quickly enough illustrate that you can't effectively hold an eypatch in place on a face coming down at that angle. It'll pull up, like a bad bra strap.

The eye IS terrible. The eyelid, such as it is, does not connect to the eye near the tear duct, as it should. It instead becomes part of the eye crease beneath, which gives the entire eye an appearance of being a cut out stuck behind a facial mask's eyeholes. Also, the eye shape is not rendered as a sphere within a socket of the skull, it is simply an eye "symbol," similar to what children draw as an eye. There are more than enough Eye tutorials on the web that explain the difference, should you not understand the concept...

~M

[Playboy Moogle]

I wasn't going to say anything at first as I've learned to deal with people like this by trying to draw what little positive feedback there is in a comment such as your first, however for the sake of ending a pending argument I will.
Nope. Frank and honest. Nasty would be to make a comparison to something in order to get the point across, or to call the artist's I.Q., skill level, or personality into question.
I simply point out visual discontinuities without flowery adjectives or soothing words, so that there is no misunderstanding. Bad is bad, why sugar coat it? I don't insult the artist's ability, I merely address the basic principles and elements of Composition and Design, with a minimum of exteraneous chit-chat.
Simply observing that something is rendered very badly is not nasty...except for those of thin skin or an overly Politically Correct nature.

Any image search for "eyepatch" will quickly enough illustrate that you can't effectively hold an eypatch in place on a face coming down at that angle. It'll pull up, like a bad bra strap.

The eye IS terrible. The eyelid, such as it is, does not connect to the eye near the tear duct, as it should. It instead becomes part of the eye crease beneath, which gives the entire eye an appearance of being a cut out stuck behind a facial mask's eyeholes. Also, the eye shape is not rendered as a sphere within a socket of the skull, it is simply an eye "symbol," similar to what children draw as an eye. There are more than enough Eye tutorials on the web that explain the difference, should you not understand the concept...

~M


Not necessarily, when bringing the artists IQ, skill level or personality into play it is taking it into a level of flaming which is intentionally created to recieve a defensive comment in responce from the artist.
There is a fine line between what you call "pointing out visual discontinuities without flowery adjectives or soothing words" and flaming in itself. While I will not say which I feel you have done since I feel it's not important to the matter at hand I will say that your comments gave me little if any help at all.

While I will admit that I took the strap down at too far of an angle, and after posting the image I noticed it and it's been fixed, that is not what you said in your first statement. You said and I quote
"The eyepatch is a joke. Do a Google Image search, and get a realistic idea of what it is you are trying to render. NO eyepatch has the strap coming down the side of the face like that. NONE, nada, ne rien..."
Now correct me if I'm wrong but that comment says nothing about the angle that it is coming down across the face. It says that an eyepatch does not cross the face like that. Not very helpful nor informative. If an eyepatch did not ever cross the face at that angle a light critique on the angle it should've crossed would've been the proper way to go about it. :l

Also, while I admit it was my fault for not clearly stating it was a work in progress, I thought common sense would've come into some play here. I was well aware of most of the errors and again it was my fault for not stating them. However constructive critique is not just pointing out errors it is stating ways you think could help fix the errors or improve the problem areas. That does not include telling me to go study my ass off with refrences either. Sometimes refrences just aren't enough.

I do hope i've gotten my point across, that I don't sound like a whiny little child and all that i've typed is understandable.

[Cyrus]

Now correct me if I'm wrong but that comment says nothing about the angle that it is coming down across the face. It says that an eyepatch does not cross the face like that. Not very helpful nor informative. If an eyepatch did not ever cross the face at that angle a light critique on the angle it should've crossed would've been the proper way to go about it. :l

"Do a Google Image search."

[Playboy Moogle]

"Do a Google Image search."
"However constructive critique is not just pointing out errors it is stating ways you think could help fix the errors or improve the problem areas. That does not include telling me to go study my ass off with refrences either. Sometimes refrences just aren't enough."


Checkmate :l

[beyond_the_forest]

Nope. Frank and honest. Nasty would be to make a comparison to something in order to get the point across, or to call the artist's I.Q., skill level, or personality into question.
I simply point out visual discontinuities without flowery adjectives or soothing words, so that there is no misunderstanding. Bad is bad, why sugar coat it? I don't insult the artist's ability, I merely address the basic principles and elements of Composition and Design, with a minimum of exteraneous chit-chat.
Simply observing that something is rendered very badly is not nasty...except for those of thin skin or an overly Politically Correct nature.

Any image search for "eyepatch" will quickly enough illustrate that you can't effectively hold an eypatch in place on a face coming down at that angle. It'll pull up, like a bad bra strap.

The eye IS terrible. The eyelid, such as it is, does not connect to the eye near the tear duct, as it should. It instead becomes part of the eye crease beneath, which gives the entire eye an appearance of being a cut out stuck behind a facial mask's eyeholes. Also, the eye shape is not rendered as a sphere within a socket of the skull, it is simply an eye "symbol," similar to what children draw as an eye. There are more than enough Eye tutorials on the web that explain the difference, should you not understand the concept...

~M

well i see it as being fat...sure you may be fat, but that doesn't make it good conduct to say "hey...your fat...what? it's true" ...meh nvm

[beyond_the_forest]

I wasn't going to say anything at first as I've learned to deal with people like this by trying to draw what little positive feedback there is in a comment such as your first, however for the sake of ending a pending argument I will.



Not necessarily, when bringing the artists IQ, skill level or personality into play it is taking it into a level of flaming which is intentionally created to recieve a defensive comment in responce from the artist.
There is a fine line between what you call "pointing out visual discontinuities without flowery adjectives or soothing words" and flaming in itself. While I will not say which I feel you have done since I feel it's not important to the matter at hand I will say that your comments gave me little if any help at all.

While I will admit that I took the strap down at too far of an angle, and after posting the image I noticed it and it's been fixed, that is not what you said in your first statement. You said and I quote
"The eyepatch is a joke. Do a Google Image search, and get a realistic idea of what it is you are trying to render. NO eyepatch has the strap coming down the side of the face like that. NONE, nada, ne rien..."
Now correct me if I'm wrong but that comment says nothing about the angle that it is coming down across the face. It says that an eyepatch does not cross the face like that. Not very helpful nor informative. If an eyepatch did not ever cross the face at that angle a light critique on the angle it should've crossed would've been the proper way to go about it. :l

Also, while I admit it was my fault for not clearly stating it was a work in progress, I thought common sense would've come into some play here. I was well aware of most of the errors and again it was my fault for not stating them. However constructive critique is not just pointing out errors it is stating ways you think could help fix the errors or improve the problem areas. That does not include telling me to go study my ass off with refrences either. Sometimes refrences just aren't enough.

I do hope i've gotten my point across, that I don't sound like a whiny little child and all that i've typed is understandable.


in my opinion hes garnishing the comment, he doesn't have to "sugar coat" in order to not rub your face in it... notice how he went on and on about the patch being so terrible? *shrugs.

once again if someone asked me if they were fat...i'd tell them they were fat.... but i wouldn't say "yeah your fat, your like a whale, i've never seen anyone as fat as you, now loose some wieght you fat ass" which basically is what he did
"the patch is a joke, it's aweful, it looks nothing like an eyepath, it's all wrong, go look at some images and you'll prove me right, there ain't any patch that looks like that, notta, zilch nothing"

i don't see much of a difference between the two other then the context (and that ONE swear word) but i imagine the same attitude is needed for both...lol I'm so flaming in my own way now....seriously i just like to banter.

[Cyrus]

"However constructive critique is not just pointing out errors it is stating ways you think could help fix the errors or improve the problem areas. That does not include telling me to go study my ass off with refrences either. Sometimes refrences just aren't enough."


Checkmate :l

I think you missed the context of my post there. How is "showing" someone a picture of something not telling them how they could fix it? Are you saying they should tell you in words? Don't you think that looking at an actual picture of something to see what it actually looks like would go a lot farther than someone telling you how it should look?

To quote a very well known phrase: "A picture is worth a thousand words."

Anyway, I got an image for ya:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/Bleuski/eyepatch.jpg

Hope that helps to point you in the right direction.

[Playboy Moogle]

I think you missed the context of my post there. How is "showing" someone a picture of something not telling them how they could fix it? Are you saying they should tell you in words? Don't you think that looking at an actual picture of something to see what it actually looks like would go a lot farther than someone telling you how it should look?

To quote a very well known phrase: "A picture is worth a thousand words."

No I completely understood. You misunderstood. While yes refrences are helpful. Sometimes they are not enough.

[Cyrus]

No I completely understood. You misunderstood. While yes refrences are helpful. Sometimes they are not enough.

I don't see why that would be the case here. When trying to see what something looks like, you can't get much better than life(or a photo).

[Playboy Moogle]

I don't see why that would be the case here. When trying to see what something looks like, you can't get much better than life(or a photo).
Unless you're a pain in the butt and like explinations of why it never works that way to help get a better understanding...kind of like how knowing how folds fall on the body and why they fall in that manner on the body helps.

Anyway, I think i've fixed some of the problems...eye still needs a little detail work (the blue is a photo issue >.o), shading on face needs to be finished, small area on lip needs to be tweaked and they need to be lightened, and I think the perspective on the nose is still off a little. Apologies for poor quality, my scanner decided it wasn't going to scan anymore.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y97/Aochii/IM001506.jpg

edit:
mwahahahaha got my scanner to work X3
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y97/Aochii/02.png
Eh, I think i'm going to need to redo the shading.

[Cyrus]

Unless you're a pain in the butt and like explinations of why it never works that way to help get a better understanding...kind of like how knowing how folds fall on the body and why they fall in that manner on the body helps.

Absolutely, but to get back to the original point I was trying to make, the only thing that was pointed out to be wrong was the angle at which the eyepatch was connected, I was only saying that in this case, a picture(which was also the original explination of how to fix it)would be an obvious way to find out what the correct angle would be. Simple enough I hope.

The eyepatch does look much better btw.

[AndreasM]

So, what do you want to archieve? If you want to draw a realistic face, you will have to study. There is no other way around it. Elwell gave you all the crits you need. Take care of the big shapes first, then the details. There are alot of demonstrations that will provide knowledge and guidance on aproaching the human figure. kChen, Loomis (do a google search) and Fredflickstone are gold.

Thing is, you can't really draw a realistic face from ref, from life or from your imagination without knowing the shapes and functions of the underlying bones and muscles. The artists mentioned above will help you to simplify the head, making all of the measurements so much easier.

If you really are serious about this, put the clever words away, gather all your enthusiasm and start over.

edit: I didn't get to read the last two replies before I started writing this...
edit2: Sorry about eventual spellings and such..it's late..