Iraqi woman welcome U.S. Marines

[JoshuaTheJames]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030321/capt.1048269068.iraq_us_military_war_reb107.jpg

This one brings a tear to the eye...


"An Iraqi woman welcomes U.S. Marines, as soldiers enter the southern border city of Safwan, Friday, March 21, 2003. The white flag on the car for safety reasons. "


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&u=/ap/20030321/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_southern_front&ncid=

Its heart warming to know that there are some people like this....

then again... she could be surrendering to avoid conflict. And perhaps we are lead to believe she is welcoming the U.S.

I hope she is welcoming us...


-Joshua

[possak]

she could just as easily be crying...

[Arlor]

Maybe she is praying to Allah to damn the marines and America. Its highly possible. :rolleyes:

[mcotie]

or maybe it's just a woman hanging her clothes out to dry and praying that it doesnt rain

[stalecracker]

OR maybe she is happy...

March 30, 2003: The mainstream media gloatingly revels in any non-military resistance to the Allied invasion of Iraq, even if it's by Saddam's criminal cronies trying to hang onto their prosperous drug smuggling sinecures, or fanatical al-Qaeda religionists attempting to win an all-expenses-paid trip to paradise (and 72 willing virgins) by blowing themselves up with car bombs, along with any "infidels" in the vicinity.

"Look!" the media fifth column immediately points out triumphantly. "The Iraqi people don't want to be liberated. Life under Saddam can't be that bad."

Oh sure. And Hillary Clinton is a selfless public servant -- not the egotistical, mean-spirited, self-serving crook that veteran Washington journalists know she is.

In regard to some additional, much-needed reality testing, today's recommended reading is a moving autobiographical essay by Ken Joseph, Jr., a former human shield. It's called, not inappropriately, I Was Wrong!.

Mr. Joseph starts out his commentary by rhetorically asking, "How do you admit you were wrong? What do you do when you realize those you were defending in fact did not want your defense and wanted something completely different from you and from the world?"

He explains how as a minister, and due to his strong anti-war convictions, he journeyed to Baghdad as a human shield to "do all I could to stop the current war in Iraq."

As an Assyrian, he tells of his excitement and pleasure of metaphorically "coming home" to Iraq. He talks about how he was especially impressed and moved by the kindness of border guards when they learned he was Assyrian, as well as the amiability of the Iraqi regime to "a stranger" like himself.

The first order of business, though, was to go to Church -- as arranged by his Iraqi hosts. And here's where reality began to impinge. Let's pick up the narrative as related by Ken Joseph Jr.:
Following a beautiful "Peace" [ceremony] to welcome the Peace Activists in which even the children participated we moved to the next room to have a simple meal.

Sitting next to me was an older man who carefully began to sound me out. Apparently feeling the freedom to talk in the midst of the mingling crowd he suddenly turned to me and said 'There is something you should know.'

'What' I asked surprised at the sudden comment.

'We didn't want to be here tonight', he continued. 'When the Priest asked us to gather for a Peace Service we said we didn't want to come'.

'What do you mean,' I inquired, confused.

'We didn't want to come because we don't want peace,' he replied.

'What in the world do you mean?' I asked. 'How could you not want peace?'

'We don't want peace. We want the war to come,' he continued.

"What in the world are you talking about?" I blurted back.

That was the beginning of a strange odyssey that deeply shattered my convictions and moral base but at the same time gave me hope for my people and, in fact, hope for the world.


Slowly, Mr. Joseph relates, he began to realize that all foreigners in Iraq are subject to 24 hour surveillance by government "minders" who arrange all interviews, visits and contact with ordinary Iraqis. But "through some fluke either by my invitation as a religious person and or my family connection," Joseph was not subject to any government handlers at any time during his stay in Iraq. In his words, "As far as I can tell I was the only person including the media, Human Shields and others in Iraq without a Government 'minder' there to guard."

So not having a government "minder" to influence the response of ordinary Iraqis he talked to, what did this idealistic clergyman, and would-be human shield, learn? Here's how he puts it:
Simply put, those living in Iraq, the common, regular people, are in a living nightmare. From the terror that would come across the faces of my family at a unknown visitor, telephone call, knock at the door, I began to realize the horror they lived with every day.

Over and over I questioned them 'Why could you want war? Why could any human being desire war?' They're answer was quiet and measured. 'Look at our lives! We are living like animals. No food, no car, no telephone, no job and most of all no hope.'
Then, finally, this naive foreign visitor began to catch on: "Having been born and raised in Japan where in spite of 50 years of democracy still retains vestiges of the 400 year old police state, I quickly began to catch the subtle nuances of a full blown, modern police state."

As Mr. Joseph notes, the scales from his eyes began to recede and "with great difficulty and deep soul searching I began little by little to understand their desire for war to finally rid them of the nightmare they were living in."

And what did that nightmare consist of? "The terrible price paid in simple, down to earth ways -- the family member with a son who just screams all the time, the family member who lost his wife [and has been] left unable to cope anymore, the family member going to a daily job with nothing to do, the family member with a son lost to the war, a husband lost to alcoholism, the daily, difficult-to-perceive slow death of people for whom all hope is lost."

Forget the confident, reassuring pictures of Saddam -- all seeing, all knowing, all encompassing -- adorning every building, wall and street corner, asserts the author. The reality in Iraq is this: "'Life is hell. We have no hope. But everything will be ok once the war is over." Or to put it another way: "Look at it this way. No matter how bad it is we will not all die. We have hoped for some other way but nothing has worked. Twelve years ago it went almost all the way but failed. We cannot wait anymore. We want the war and we want it now."

In the end, after much soul-searching, Ken Joseph, Jr. could only come to one inescapable conclusion about his role as a "peacemaker" and human shield: "How dare I claim to speak for those for whom I had never asked what they wanted!"

Mr Joseph's experience, observations and emotions are also echoed in a Daily Telegraph opinion piece, by another former human shield, Daniel Pepper, entitled, I WAS A NAIVE FOOL TO BE A HUMAN SHIELD FOR SADDAM.

Mr Pepper's first moment of truth came when a taxi driver tentatively spoke his mind to his idealistic, anti-war passenger. As Daniel Pepper puts it, " I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, 'Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good'. He looked at me with an expression of incredulity."

As the taxi driver began to realize that this naive young passenger was totally serious, he slowed down the taxi "and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime." Previously various "minders" had only spoken of Saddam "with respect." But relates Daniel Pepper, "now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family."

Eventually, disillusioned by his experience in Iraq, and with the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, Daniel Pepper and five other Western human shields hired a taxi to take them to Jordan. And again an ordinary Iraqi -- temporarily free from the constraints and intimidation of Saddam's secret police -- started to unload. As Mr. Pepper tells it, "We just sat, listening, our mouths open wide. Jake, one of the others, just kept saying, 'Oh my God' as the driver described the horrors of the regime. Jake was so shocked at how naive he had been. We all were. It hadn't occurred to anyone that the Iraqis might actually be pro-war."

According to Daniel Pepper, the driver's most emphatic statement was: "All Iraqi people want this war."

Perhaps instead of filling our TV screens and newspapers with gruesome pictures of children purportedly "slaughtered" by errant American missile and bombs, our media might occasionally counter such images with the first-person experiences of anti-war activists like Ken Joseph Jr. and Daniel Pepper -- innocents who stumbled into the heart of darkness that is Saddam's Iraq and woke up to the hard truth about the need, sometimes, for just wars.

After all, no matter how gruesome such wars might appear, they are often welcomed by those most immediately and negatively affected.

Perhaps the Iraqi people will yet welcome their American and British liberators with open arms.

[gallon]

"Perhaps the Iraqi people will yet welcome their American and British liberators with open arms."

Well, they just might...if the americans and British didn't liberate by killing civilians. I guess you don't hear much about them in the US, as your media currently is working as it should during war, as a propaganda machine.
I just think it's sad that the deaths of the innocent is forgotten, as the whole war is reported as a damn fotball game, combined with some cool graphics and diagrams.
Talk about the dead, instead of gloryfing the technicals aspects of killing (ofcourse I talk about the media and politicians now).

[stalecracker]

Wait a minute?!? People DIE in a WAR??!?!?!??!?!?

Gallon, I think we are all quite aware that innocent people die during ANY war. You have to balance between "How many die if you do nothing versus how many die if I do something." Millions upon millions of people died during WW2... If Hitler had not been opposed and ultimately squashed, how many more would have died. If someone was holding me and my loved ones prisoner and intended to rape, torture and murder us one by one and then the police burst in and kill the Bad guys and, in the course of the action, kill someone I loved. I guarentee you I wouldn't be mad at the cops. I'd SHIT on the Bad Guys corpses for causing the situation to EXIST. Without the cops, in that situation, ALL are doomed. With them, all but one were spared. It is harsh and horrible but it is the way it goes.

[mcotie]

gallon>> if you are referring to the 13 women and children that died in the van. I read it and it was available for the whole world to read on line. Not all americans are glued to CNN exclusively. I was not for the war from the get go. I never will be. I think the whole thing stinks of hidden agenda. BUT. Those troops that found themselves in that tough situation will have to live with what happened for the rest of their lives. As far as I'm concerned they need our suppport more than ever right now. They were doing their job. and a bit nervous from what happened a few days prior. Word is that the van did not stop! what the hell were they supposed to do. Yes this is war and people will die.

I think about the guys that returned from Viet Nam with people calling them baby killers and what not. I'm sure the truth of the matter ( for the majority of them) is that they had to do for fear of their own lives and those with them.

Do you realize that the U.S. Military has weapons that can zero in on a hair in the crack of your ass while you take a crap? Has your computer ever crashed? Or did you have to restart it to get the bugs out? Sometimes computers don't work that well. Sometimes a grain of sand (and there are a few of them there) can get into uncool places and screw things up. But the majority of these weapons have spared scads of lives compared to,say,carpet bombing in WW2. By taking out only targets that are related directly to the U.S. taking out Saddam's Military.

One thing that cracks me up about the big mouths against or for the war is that, usually, the ones that are the loudest, have never been in the shoes of these dudes and dudettes over there.

Mitch

[otis]

Jesus christ you guys! Vietnam,,,,Iraq,,, killing babies..!!!?!!
We all know that there are innocent casualties of war. But Stop making it sound like they are INTENTIONAL! Now if all I'm hearing form the news, our gov't officials, and every other fucking resource, I'm goin to believe it! you think that CNN or any other news agency is going to report lies??? They have a reputation to uphold too! Shit if it was comming from just one resource then I'd question it, but if it is being confirmed that Iraqi soldiers are killing innocent Iraqi civilans, do you still insits that it's Americans doing it instead???

Shit, we all know how desperate the fanatic Iraqi military is getting, WTF won't you guys believe it?

Or do you just WANT to believe that we are killing innocents intentionally?? :question:

[otis]

Sorry guys, that last post wasn't directed at you, I'm just sick of hearing protestors blaming americans for intentional innocent deaths in the news.

[gallon]

First of all, I realize I might have been a bit harsh and could have chosen my words with a bit more care in my previous post. (mmh, I put your names in front of the answers, but I realize I'm not that organized, so they mix a bit.)

<Stalecracker> Ofcourse I realize that there is always innocents death during war. Actually that was my whole point in the previous post. As you where saying, when someone you love gets killed...it's a terrible thing and during a war a whole lot of people have to live through that fact, and that goes for civilians as well as soldiers.

What is making me upset is how the whole damn thing is reported by media. The just take the whole thing and add to the amusement media show and try to make it as entertaining as possible (well, ofcourse they don't need to make it boring, but still keep it serious as it should be), and try to build the story as a actionmovie. I also grow tired of, for example Jay Leno ( we can see that show every evening, and it's one or two days behind US ), simplifing things and making the whole thing so trivial. As the french voted No to the war, as many other countries and the UN, they are called cowards and should "buy a backbone".

One of the reasons (probably one of many ) is the french oil-deals with iraq. If the US takes down the regime, they will be in control of the region, and the oildeals France has with Iraq right now is going to be ripped open.One of many reasons, as I guess you know as well. In my post I didn't in any way want to say "youre stupid, americans!" ...just being a bit frustrated over the cost of a human life..

<Mc Cotie>
If I remember correctly, you are in the military, and that makes me listen a lot to your opinions.
I think, as you do, that this whole deal stink of hidden agendas.
Recently Blair want's the UN to take charge of Iraq after the war, but Bush wasn't too happy about that...and that is not so noble as it started out, just the good ole "war for territory".

Again I didn't want to say americans are stupid and don't try to see the whole picture. But I don't like the embedded reporters that have rules what to and not to say. Of course they can't give exact locations in the media and mess up the military op's , but they are under contract (as the swedish media actually is very careful to point out as well as using material from arabic newsstations, and of course their own reporters. Well, the swedish media does one thing right in a ocean of fuckups, and misinterpretations ), and can't speak freely.

Mmh, I was thinking about the bombings on some marketplace in al-mashur, bagdad the 28-03 , with somewhere near or above 50 dead civilians, depending on source. 26-03 also bombing on a marketplace, al-shaab, north Bagdad, 14 dead civilians. I have then isolated myself a bit from the war, much work and I want to find some new sources for information so that I can compare....any tips appreciated

I have the greatest respect for those who get sent down to Iraq as soldiers. I hope and think the want to prevent civilian deaths, as well as their own.
Against a enemy that employs guerilla tactics the most armies will face trouble (and if I remember correctly, The US like to fight on battlefields, where there tanks can make the difference. They tried to force the vietkong to a "open " fight throughout the whole Vietnam war). And city fights make the US's technical benefits less noticable, so ofcourse that is what the iraqi military wants.

So, I don't have anything against the american or british soldiers or the iraqi soldiers, but I have some real problems with all of those soldiers regimes and their reasons for sending soldiers to war , and as Stalecracker said creating the situation. (ofcourse I would have something against the same soldiers if comitting crimes of war )

Why did Bush go against the UN? He's got more or less the whole world against him now. Gotta be some hidden agendas here..

hugashaka, over and out for now :)

[otis]

I think I know what you"hidden agenda" is:

You have a fuckedup nation like Iraq, with a brutal leader who terrorizes his people.

That fucked up nation develops weapons of mass destruction

That fucked up nation grows uneducated, brainwashed, fearfull people, who are taught to hate the U.S.

Those fucked up people now start sacrificing themselves terrorizing the world because in their minds there is no hope.

While the people who don't want to die keep their heads down.

O.k., so lets sit back and do nothing while this area of the world spins out of control, and continues to stash and accumilate biological and chemical weapons to be used on innocent civilians around the world.

That's a brilliant idea.

:thumbsup:

[otis]

About hidden agendas, seriously,..I think that there are agendas already in the works with the U.N. and other countries around the world. But what I want to know is why does everyone seem to expect these "hidden agendas" to be somthing bad?? They might have benifits for everyone after Saddam is gone. Oh, I forgot...the U.S. is a greedy , evil, imperialistic, empire....I forgot! lol!

[gallon]

Mmh, I think there is talk about these things because noone thinks the US or any other country/nation in the world wants to send their sons and daughters all across the globe to fight and die.... for no personal gain.

If you disagree , please , give me an example of when that war might have taken place!

Have a nice day :)

[KayCustomz]

it may look like shes crying but theres a gun under that dress...there just faking it it these days

[otis]

Gallon,

So are you saying that we fought in WW2 for personal gains? Or instead of "personal gains" do you me a just cause?

[gallon]

The Us became involved in the second world war after the german "Wolfpacks", units of sub-marines started to destroy and cut of trade convoys from britain to the US. At first the US warships just escorted the british trade convoys, but as Us warship got destroyed they became more involved.
The germans disturbed the US economy, and then they decided to join with armed forces!

After the war the US was intact, when most of europe lay in ruins. The Marshal program ( lending money to countries in Europe, with a high rate of interest, to rebuild it) and the fact that the US was intact is one mayor reason that the United states are a "super-power" today.

It's the same reasons Sweden prospered after the war. Our country stayed "neutral" ( helping the germans in the beinning of the war and then we turned coat and started helping the winning side instead, under the flag of neutrality. A great shame!) and thus survived from being touched by the war. Our industry was intact and this country gained lots of riches from that, and was going forward until the 70 ths, when we halted a bit and has been going a bit slower that the rest of europe since then.

So if the US joined for the sake of good and right alone I guess they could have acted sooner! Well, that's not really my point... I don't think you join a war out of ideals and with no interest of gaining something, money, territory, ....and so on! And I don't think the US did that "hero-thing" here....there's a whole lot of countries behaving a lot worse that Saddam, Israel for example, but that don't have the same riches as iraq.

[silent Insanity]

How is Israel acting worse than saddam? Oh ya i forgot about israels torture chambers or the nerve gas they have, oh dont forget their terrorist training camps. You cant compare Israel to Iraq. If Israel was worse than iraq there would be no Palistine or Palistinians right now. Everyone has a right to defend themselves.
Think about this the US gives out more foriegn aid than every country put together. Just looking at that fact I dont see why we wouldnt go to war to help other countries.

[gallon]

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=45185#post45185

check out arcanos post concerning the Irael question!

[silent Insanity]

About the israel palestinian conflict. You have to realize that theres conflict between the iraelis and the palestinians. Its not just the Israelis killing Palestinians, Palestine has done as much to Israel as Israel has done to Palestine. But can you tell me the last time Israel has launched a chemical strike against palistine killing thousands of people? Iraq has killed more arabs than israel has.
I dont see how the accumulation of sanction violations makes Israel as bad as iraq.
What it comes down to is whether or not the majority of the iraqi people want to live under saddam or a democratic type government. I couldnt care less what any other countries think if the Iraqi people are suffering and want to be free then this war is justified. If not we shouldnt be there.

All media is bias, if a majority of people in (for example) uzbekistan are anti-war do you think they will show something that makes the coalition look good? Not if they want ratings. This is how it is in all countries. Its about viewer opinion and money.

[gallon]

The Isreal goverment are performing the exact same kind of ethnic cleansing as the serbs did in kosovo...only ten times worse.
Well, the first conflict ended when the US bombed Yugoslavia to stoneage, killing lots of people (and paper targets, as I been told by some serb friends).
The Kosovoalbans army was also supported by the muslim world and pretty well equipped.

The fact that Isreali military shoots at Palestininan demostrants with tanks, and are oppressing the people in every way, through discrimination as well as violence, doesn't raise enough attention, and Isreal is the US mayor ally in the middle-east. Don't think that is going to change either...
There are palestinians that have lived there whole lives in refugee-camps, and the Isrealis are pushing back the Palestininan borders time after time.
Well, the palestini has responded with suicide bombers targeting civilians. If you take a map of the area you see why. They target Tel Aviv that is located far from the "conflict-area" to raise the isreali people, make them aware of the situation , and hopefully get the people to want to have peace, by making them live in constant state of war, nationwide (not just where the palestinians gets killed) and to have the isreali people push the goverment to peace-talks again.
But I personally don't in aany way think the palestinan suicide-bombers are helping the situation. I'm afraid we'll get the same kind of conflicts in Iraq after the war, with suicidebombers and all of that.

Ok, over and out again, probably left out half of what i was going to write ...but I filled it with other stuff, so ...nevermind :)

[silent Insanity]

The terrorists do not want peace. They want Israeli blood staining the ground.


[http://www.israeltoday.co.il/article/Default.asp?CatID=1&ArticleID=117[/URL]

For the other side of the story.