This hurts... (regarding War)

[JoshuaTheJames]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030320/capt.1048123704.greece_antiwar_iraq_xts101.jpg
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030320/168/3kcsv.html&e=14&ncid=

...it makes me speechless.


-Joshua

[ummo]

speechless in agreement or against?

[Bathgate66]

Well, the composition isn't bad. It keeps the eyes focused on the candle-lit letters-which is what the artist intended I'm sure. I personally would add a little more blue to bring out the bright orange of the glow though. Overall it's a good piece, show more please!

[silent Insanity]

in my eyes that man deserves to get his ass kicked

[Lono]

thats pretty weak..

you know,,, it is the nature of philosophy and theology to make the biger statements by using the fewest amount of words. it forces the audience to use there brains to fill in the blanks and draw there own conclusions giving them a more profound understanding of the concept as a whole.

sadly,, some people abuse this device.
So just because its clever doesnt mean it holds any validity.

i dont believe this person is very educated in his history.


silent Insanity: heh,, you know there is real irony in your reaction to this picture.
the fact that we ARE allowed to express our own opinions openly without being thrown in jail or getting our asses kicked
is what makes america different from Nazi Germany?



im not sure which annoys me more,,,, the lazy ignorant and opinionated hippie,, or the brainless gung-ho team spirited patriot.

-Lono

[Coma]

wow... that takes quite a level of stupidity and ignorance... (the pic)

[goldenavatar]

Well, our government (US) put Saddam in power, it's only appropriate that we correct the mistake.

[JoshuaTheJames]

I think its sad.

[mcotie]

Even though he is entitled to his own opinion, that guy has a cranial-rectal inversion.

[the_blur]

Originally posted by Lono
or the brainless gung-ho team spirited patriot.
-Lono

I guess that depends on how many of your grandparents died storming the beaches at normandy. I would personally kick his ass. But that's just me. No one should disrespect the people who gave him the very freedom he's abusing by saying that.

[Lono]

sigh....

the_blur: my grandfather fought in ww2 and i had two uncles in Nam,, one died.. but i still respect other peoples opinions and there right to express them without fear of some super patriot turd kicking there teeth in..

but your problem is disrespect?? so you would kick his ass for Dissin yo fallen homies?? what is respect really? how does his lack of respect really effect your way of life?

i think the kid in the picture is an idiot making an absurd statement.
but i personally find your violent attitude equally asinine.

-Lono

[mcotie]

Lono

you rock!

[silent Insanity]

Im not super patriotic, but to me him doing that is like a slap in the face. Have you visited the holocaust museum? To me lono what makes us different than nazi germany is that were not trying to commit genocide.
My violent attitude could be contributed to where I live I guess. We have a laid back life style here but we dont tolerate idiots.
I dont know which annoys me more this picture or your high and mighty insults.

[Lono]

mcotie: NO mcotie,, YOU, are, the, man. :p

silent Insanity: no you see,, the fact that you take it as a personal slap in the face is YOUR PROBLEM.. im an American,, and i have a passionate love for my country, but for some reason, Im not feeling the person in this picture slapping my face.

To me lono what makes us different than nazi germany is that were not trying to commit genocide.
thats all??? hmmmm,, how abouts the world domination part? or that whole Fascism thing?? i bet i could think of a few more.

We have a laid back life style here but we dont tolerate idiots.
damn,, i feel sorry for all of the mentally retarded people in your area. they must have had all of there teeth kicked in long ago.
was your high school motto,, "get an education, or get a beating?"

I dont know which annoys me more this picture or your high and mighty insults
i am neither "high" nor "mighty".. thats in your head dude.

-Lono

[mcotie]

Hey Silent

I have visited Dachau, and I can truly say that USA is not like that. Certainly we've done some stupid crap in the past but for the most part we as the USA will breed ourselves out of racism/fascism.This is a good thing. We are a young country still.

I am a veteran and I don't take offense to this. I think he is an ill informed moron, quick to make, hasty and unproportionate ( is that a word?) decisions. he has problems with HIS government in the only stupidass way he knows how. That's his right. The guys in the desert right now, give that right to him.

The problem we have here today is the majority feel as though it is unpatriotic to question our Gov't. I beg your pardon but that IS our job. That's what makes the USA, the USA. otherwise this would be a monarchy.

hmmm.

[silent Insanity]

I know its my problem i was speaking for myself.
I didn't feel it was necessary for me to write an entire essay on the comparision between the US and nazi Germany

was your high school motto,, "get an education, or get a beating?"
You mean what is my high school motto?

I personally think that in certain circumstances the 1st amendment is being abused to its limits.
Take for example a baptist church recently came to hawaii to protest. Probably due to the fact that hawaii was considering legalizing homosexual marriage. They came and protested at the state capital with signs that said "god hates hawaii" "god hates america", "thank god for september 11th" so on and so on, they also put the american and hawaiian flag on the ground to protest on. God i wished i had my liscense. But lono you'd be glad to know that i wouldnt of kicked their teeth in, i would have had a little talk about their myths.

[silent Insanity]

mcotie- I understand.

[sparth]

shame on the guy. extremist anti american propaganda gives that sort of pittiful results in europe. we tend to forget the past so easily.
also, bush is giving so many arguments to these morons... i'm scared to admit that these sad images will pop up soon.
nowadays, and on both sides, it's so easy to fall into the traps.
lono, mcotie: your moderation is such an exemple to follow. i'm so glad to see you peeps fully explaining the situation.

[Lono]

mcotie: well said Major Mcotie!
would you like me to get down and give you twenty?:D


silent Insanity: yes, well sadly if you give people the freedom to say anything they want, a lot of really stupid shit is gonna be said.
Take for example a baptist church recently came to hawaii to protest. Probably due to the fact that hawaii was considering legalizing homosexual marriage. They came and protested at the state capital with signs that said "god hates hawaii" "god hates america", "thank god for september 11th" so on and so on, they also put the american and hawaiian flag on the ground to protest on. God i wished i had my liscense. people like that seriously make me furious beyond belief,, but it is there right to protest.

But lono you'd be glad to know that i wouldnt of kicked their teeth in, i would have had a little talk about their myths. thats the right attitude,,, but beware,, arguing with bible thumpers over the practical relavance of there religion is a lost cause., youd have better luck talking to a wall.

-Lono

[Lono]

I vote for Sparth to be our French representative here at Conceptart.org.

and the cool part is,, if the Mods ever come after you for any reason, you can claim "diplomatic immunity" and get away with all sorts of scandalous activities.
:p

-Lono

[otis]

All I can say is that people like this are sick with evil and have choas in their minds. We can't explain or understand it because it is evil.

Somtimes this anger fills me up and lowers me to their level by wanting to hurt these anarchists. But on the same side I love these idiots, because they represent the anti war movement as a bunch of uninformed, evil, morons. the more we see from these assholes the more people will ignor and leave their cause.

[MindCandyMan]

Touching on what mcotie said:

I work at the University of Pennsylvania where a whole bunch of students are protesting...they hand cuffed themselves to the marine recruitment center door and when the news asked the marine inside what he thought about the situation he said this, "I would gladly fight to preserve the right that those people are exercising outside...that's why I'm here". Having said that......It is everyone's right to question the government...to spend their time how they want etc... If someone wants to stay inside and hit their hand with a hammer every 20 minutes they should have the right to do that...but that doesn't negate the fact that hitting your hand with a hammer every 20 minutes is a completely idiotic thing to do. That's the way I feel about this guy...he's a complete idiot who has no clue...but does he have the right to do that...sure...but don't get mad at me when I call you an idiot mr. anti-america.

[the_blur]

Originally posted by Lono
but your problem is disrespect?? so you would kick his ass for Dissin yo fallen homies?? what is respect really? how does his lack of respect really effect your way of life?

i think the kid in the picture is an idiot making an absurd statement.
but i personally find your violent attitude equally asinine.
-Lono

It doesn't change my way of life at all! I didn't lose my grandfather to a war, I immigrated to canada, not even the states. However, I recognize the people to whom I owe my freedom. They are about 80 years old and dying off now and seeing something like this would bring tears to their eyes (and because they're old, they couldn't do anything about it).

Disrespect of this magnitude warrants action. Especially if the people this would offend most can't defend themselves.

I don't agree with warmongering, but peacemongering is just as bad sometimes imho. Besides, some people just need an ass kicking before they realize that words have power and can bother others to the point where they will hurt you. By the way.

I have nothing personal against ya lono =) maybe my short reply sounded curt, it was a statement of fact really, not a troll =)

[the_blur]

Originally posted by otis
because they represent the anti war movement as a bunch of uninformed, evil, morons.

The peace movement isn't "a bunch of uninformed, evil, morons" They are a good oversight commitee on the United States army abroad. Despite their foolish antics, they are a good balacing influence on US foreign military actions.

What he is doing is not evil, it's disrespectful. If some came up to me and told me I'm a Nazi, I would likely kick their ass. It is grounds for immediate violence. People often understimate the value of violence as a teaching tool. If he called me a Nazi and I kicked his ass, he's MUCH less likely to go off calling people names next time, yes? It's about being civil to others.

The day after 9/11 I had a classmate who was jumping for joy that the two towers collapsed and a 3000 Americans died. JUMPING for JOY. I almost kicked his ass, had we not been in class, I would have. You just don't say things like that. and if you do, you better hope the persons' anger and pride doesn't outweigh their fear of a misdemeanor assault and battery charge.

If playing with fire didn't burn us, the whole fkn planet would've gone up in flames by now.

[fletchgirl]

omg....

"Al-Sahhaf suggested that any captured U.S. and British soldiers may not be treated as prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions. Al-Sahhaf said Iraq was considering how to treat them.

''Those are mercenaries. Most probably they will be treated as mercenaries, hirelings and as war criminals. ... For sure, international law does not apply to those,'' he said."

[stalecracker]

Al- Sahhaf ALSO said that "Iraq has no SCUD missles." What a Titanic idiot. If any POW's (which I highly doubt there will be any) are treated any way other than in accordance with the Geneve Convention.... well, let's just say that would be unfortunate for the ones who treat them poorly.

Also- I came across this pic of a demonstrator...

http://www.imgmag.net/images/screamcheese/capt.1048123704.greece_antiwar_iraq_xts101.jpg

My thought EXACTLY.

[MindCandyMan]

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHH that is hilarious.

[Lono]

stalecracker: hahahaha thats great!

the_blur: no problem man,, were all friends here. :)
i still have to disagree with you on your opinions of physical violence as a solution to openly opinionated people.
i guarantee that there is someone out there who finds your way of life and opinions completely offensive and if you expressed them openly,, do you think that they wold have the right to beat your ass?
lets say,, if i decided to wear a t shirt that said, "WORSHIP SATAN" in all caps.. god knows there are plenty of "Jesus is lord" shirts out there, and it is my right to express my religion,, but you know what,, that shirt would REALLY piss off a lot of devout christians to the point where they would like to do me physical harm. some of them would take it as a personal insult to every thing they stand for.. does that give them the right to fuck me up? the answer is NO. and that is the correct answer.

otis: DAMN MAN,, what is your deal with the EVIL?? why is everything you dissagree with gotte be "evil" or "full of chaos"?? i know your not that self rightious man, come on.
i got news,, its not that simple. you cant paint everything black n white like that.
your right,, there are some real morons in the anti war movement,, but there are just as many in the pro war, yo-Joe movement.. morons ere everywhere dude. you shouldnt make gross generalizations like that.

heres a lesson i learned long ago.. SIMPLE is always more effective in the long run,, but its generally devoid of quality.
for instance, id much rather watch 1 really good "quality" movie than have to sit through 20 mediocre "simple" movies.\

-Lono

[Clodhopper]

This war makes me feel like I should be there. Everytime i look at the photos in the newspapers, they're of 19 year old kids just like me and my friends, they even look like me and my friends, some of them. If it wasn't for the blood clot in my leg; I like to think I might be me over there, tearing down posters of Saddam. maybe I'm just cuaght up in the glory and honor that I perceive these soldiers to have...or maybe I should just thank god It's not me and become a succesful contributing American- and have kids who can fight in the next war...

Blur--
I remember my highschool day on 9/11. there was alot of people getting their asses kicked, or their teeth kicked in...highschools are cesspools of disrespect. But no amount of disrespect "warrants action".

but then one of my friends, an Arab, was getting all kinds of hell from every super-patriot bastard in the school. that kind of harm "warrants action". And getting suspended for a week for kicking teeth in was worth it. andI fear for the Arab Americans in highschools right now.

so disrespect is one thing, but cuasing harm is another. that guy in the picture isn't harming anyone so how can you say action is warrented?

Lono--
love ta read yer posts dude. couldn't agree with 'em more

[silent Insanity]

But no amount of disrespect "warrants action".

I disagree. Especially in a school environment, due to the fact if you dont stand up for yourself the person will continue to harass, tease, or bullie you. If you stand up for yourself these people will realize that your not going to take it and next time will think twice before saying anything.

The people that tell us to tell an adult (our counselor, a teacher or the principle) need to be brought up to speed on how real life works. If someone tells on someone else, yes the person might leave them alone but that persons actions will leave him open for a large ammount of teasing and harassment. Also if the harasser is offended by the person telling a teacher, then he might take actions that would make the situation worse.
In global situations on the other hand violence is not the answer when it comes to countries disrespecting the united states.
There are other means of getting (you can qoute me on this one) "even". And yes i think we should get "even" with certain countries.

You might ask why would we want to get even with countries if all they do is disrespect us?. A person asks for 5 dollars and you being a nice person gives it to him. His reply is to give you dirty looks and to call you an asshole. Are you gonna give him five dollars next time?

[Clodhopper]

Silent Insanity--
aight...maybe I have a difforent perspective of Highschool. I was the biggest guy in the entire school. Not that i was a huge badass or anything, but nobody ever messes with a guy thats 6'7" and built. I suppose its difforent if yer small and more vulnerable. but still, i see these little kids harassing each other and I just hate the whole highschool mentality. Being bigger and stronger than other guys is not an issue for me. why is it such a big deal to you normal sized kids? but i realize its easier to question the mentality than to have to deal with it everyday in every class...but don't let it carry over into real life. cuase there is life after highschool-and its kicking my ass, and changing my perspectives.

as for getting "even" with other countries... I'm not at all clear on what "other means" you are referring to to get even with them. You just gotta let stuff go. but imagine if the jews had to "get even" with Germany? or the Japanese want to "get even" over Hiroshima. And now terrorists are goin to get even with America...with all due respect, I think your logic is detramental, dude.

Its not gonna help highschool culture, and it sure as hell is not gonna help world politics....

[silent Insanity]

My perspective is that of people not 6'5 300 pounds. Most of these type of guys if teased or bullied will automaticly stick up for themselves.

Size doesnt matter to me its not a big deal and I hold no resentment towards people of that size. I feel that the people that you need to stand up to are not necessarily big. I personally dont think size should be a factor in deciding whether or not someone stands up for themselves. But that might be due to that fact that i trust my fighting abilitys if that person feels like fighting.

Of coarse my persepectives not gonna help high school culture but thats how the world is and it will not change.

[Clodhopper]

...changed my mind...this in't worth persuing. you win tough guy.

I won't stray from the thread topic anymore.

[otis]

Lono

personally I believer that life is black and white. now when I use that term , we might be misunderstanding eachother, so I'll try to explain my philosophy.

I believe that everyone is capable of doing evil or good. But it's up to us to control or decide ( choose) what to do, how to live, act, etc. So when ever we have a dilema or some hard decision to make in life, in the end, there is always a right and wrong direction to take. Often times the right decision is always the tougher one to make.

The problem is that evil comes in many forms..the scariest is when you think you have the right intentions, but loose all sense of rationality. Rationality is the ability to decipher between right and wrong. Ex: Every serial killer never feels like they did anything wrong. We try and try to "understand" why or what makes these killers act or think this way. But we CAN'T. Why you ask?? Because evil / chaos has no order or explanation...it's just evil. Ofcourse we try to psycho analyze them, but they continue to facinate and perplex us becuase it's evil in it's purest form. WE will NEVER UNDERSTAND.

As with the protesters, they feel like they have the right intentions, but rationally they don't. Ex: They think that they are the only ones who don't want war..but they are wrong, NOBODY WANTS WAR. So they get so caught up in their "rightous thoughts and emotions" that they must get violent, destructive, ignorant all leading to..chaos. Do you see my point ?

So as rational people we try to "understand" their views, with intentions of learning somthing we don't already know thru debate. But,.....
As we all know there is no point in this because they can't support their views with any rational arguments,.except for giving some stupid answers like:
"We dont' believe in any form of killing no matter what the situation is"
Or "Bush is killing the innocent people of Iraq" etc.
I could go on but, I'm sure we've heard them all.

It's like trying to have a discussion with a person that makes no sense and they don't care. So in order to keep believing in their cause, they start convincing themselves of insane, untrue facts and realities.

So when I say life is "black and white" I mean it's a matter of " right from wrong". Now some people might say , "who are we to decide what is wright or wrong?" And I say, WE ARE the ones who decide! WE have the power to CHOOSE. Inside, deep down, we all KNOW right from wrong because we all are rational human beings. Remmeber, the easiest path is always the wrong one. Just like it's much easier to protest against , "killing, war, death..etc" but not dealing with it.
But if you can bravely face tough decisions, and be humble enough to recognize when you are making the wrong ones, you will make the right choice.

Now whether we are up for the task in making the harder decisions in life, time will only tell.

Whew..! I hope I made some sense.

[Lono]

otis: you make a good argument, and im glad you really put some thought into this, but i have to disagree with you on several of your points.
I believe that everyone is capable of doing evil or good. But it's up to us to control or decide ( choose) what to do, how to live, act, etc. So when ever we have a dilema or some hard decision to make in life, in the end, there is always a right and wrong direction to take. Often times the right decision is always the tougher one to make.
i totally disagree with you on the right and wrong thing.
theres no such thing as a right choice,, there are just choices,, or different paths.
what a person truely and deeply percives as right stems directly back to there morals wich is linked directly to there religion and culture. this is a fact.. do you really believe that those suicide bombers believed deep down that they were gonna burn in hell? i think the opposite actually. what they did was the ultimate RIGHT in there minds. now i know your gonna say that there minds were full of chaos and evil which diluded there ability to make the right choice.. instead of sacraficing themselves for there religion and beliefes they should have planted a tree or some shit. but thats just not true. to them it was a moral and rightious act.

The problem is that evil comes in many forms..the scariest is when you think you have the right intentions, but loose all sense of rationality. Rationality is the ability to decipher between right and wrong. Ex: Every serial killer never feels like they did anything wrong. We try and try to "understand" why or what makes these killers act or think this way. But we CAN'T. Why you ask?? Because evil / chaos has no order or explanation...it's just evil. Ofcourse we try to psycho analyze them, but they continue to facinate and perplex us becuase it's evil in it's purest form. WE will NEVER UNDERSTAND.
evil is not some mystical force which posesses people in there sleep and makes them kill for no reason.
first of all,, the reason we can never understand what motivates serial killers is because we have no fucking idea how our own minds work. the human brain is a complete enigma to us.. we may fully explore the depths of space before we ever start to really understand whats going on in our own skulls. we can only explore the inner workings of our brains so far until we hit the sociological barier. its the world weve created,, and its built completely on interpritation from our 5 senses. so what im saying is,, there is no wrong or right. it just depends on your "perspective",, and "interpritation"..

As with the protesters, they feel like they have the right intentions, but rationally they don't. Ex: They think that they are the only ones who don't want war..but they are wrong, NOBODY WANTS WAR. So they get so caught up in their "rightous thoughts and emotions" that they must get violent, destructive, ignorant all leading to..chaos. Do you see my point ?
sorta,,, i do think that there is a VERY LARGE percentage of protesters who fall into a catigory similar to what youve described. but you cant honestly think that every person who is in protest of this war is an evil idiot? can you?
i personally have reservations about our buisness in the middle east but that is an altogether different conversation that may never end and its pointless now because the wheels are already in motion so we might as well finish the job that we started many years ago and never finished. besides i read your posts in the other thread and i can clearly see that you are feverishly looking for someone to argue with about this war,, and im sorry but i really dont want to be your dance partner. because at the end of the dance i dont even get to take you home and sleep with you. :p
but rest assured,, my argument would not consist of "war is bad" or "killing innocent people is bad" or any lame shit like that.

[Lono]

continued....

It's like trying to have a discussion with a person that makes no sense and they don't care. So in order to keep believing in their cause, they start convincing themselves of insane, untrue facts and realities.
yes this is true,, but dont we all have to do this to a certian extent? its called neccecary lies. if we didnt have them we would suddenly realize that our entire existance is just a worthless fart in the breeze and all of the things we use to think were so important in life would suddenly seem inane and pointless. this is where i think your philosophy of keeping it simple has validation. we need to live within the simple worlds weve created for ourselves or we realize that we have nothing and are completely alone. and that is the opposite of happiness.. so in order to live within the worlds weve created we have to lie to ourselves here and there so that we can believe that THIS is reality and enjoy it in its simplest form. so now that ive explained that.. wouldnt you say that we are all full of lies and evil and chaos and untruth?

So when I say life is "black and white" I mean it's a matter of " right from wrong". Now some people might say , "who are we to decide what is wright or wrong?" And I say, WE ARE the ones who decide! WE have the power to CHOOSE. Inside, deep down, we all KNOW right from wrong because we all are rational human beings
i think i already covered this.

Remmeber, the easiest path is always the wrong one. Just like it's much easier to protest against , "killing, war, death..etc" but not dealing with it.
hmmm thats funny,, i think the more popular perspective is to "always choose the path of least resistance". its sage wisdom.. probably more reliable,,, BUT its not exactilly aplickable to every situation i can think of.. so there are no universal "rules" or "guidelines to follow",, just choices.

But if you can bravely face tough decisions, and be humble enough to recognize when you are making the wrong ones, you will make the right choice. i agree completely. or at least you will come closer to being true to yourself and your fellow humans. i do believe in being as honest as you can possably allow.

sorry so long,, i tried not to repeat myself too much.

-LOno

[taff]

/deleted.

[otis]

Lono,

I hear your point. But I think that the suicide bombers are as far gone as the typical serial killers. They are so engrosed into their cause that they feel like there is NO other way. Which brings us back to the actual question...is blowing up innocent people right? I bet they know its' not right, but they FEEL like it's THE ONLY WAY. Making it still wrong.

I dont' understand how you can just sit back and think:

"theres no such thing as a right choice,, there are just choices,, or different paths.
what a person truely and deeply percives as right stems directly back to there morals wich is linked directly to there religion and culture."

So by this, you think that the nazi's killed millions of Jews because it was in their culture or beliefs??? Come on.
They knew deep down it was wrong, but the "evil" (or what ever you want to call it), engrossed them, I'm sure it even turned some of them on. some became numb to it, while others loved it.
Evil can be very contageous, blinding, and misleading. By believing that there is no such a thing as evil is completely naive. Bad, evil, wrong, sin, ..I don't care what you call it..it exhists.

[otis]

and about the protestors,... I was specifically making the relation to the sick fuck up ones who cause civil disobedience and burn american flag, etc.

[Lono]

otis
hear your point. But I think that the suicide bombers are as far gone as the typical serial killers. They are so engrosed into their cause that they feel like there is NO other way. Which brings us back to the actual question...is blowing up innocent people right? I bet they know its' not right, but they FEEL like it's THE ONLY WAY. Making it still wrong.

if we go far back enough to the early pagan cultures before christianity,, id bet you would be quite supprised at what there impression of right and wrong was. these were the times of human sacrafice.. some of it was even voulentary.
what we see as right and wrong is custom taylored to our universe. i mean shit man,, we kill all the time. its our nature.. we kill innocent animals by the bulk pound without batting an eye.. shit,, we even kill for sport. so is killing evil or just killing humans? whats the difference really? only one i can think of,, and it would be a religious one... aside from the fact that killing another human would bring reprocussions.. we kill for convienance.. we kill to because we dont want to disturb our way of living. we feel guilty for killing humans because we empathise with them,, and there loved ones. we choose right and wrong,, or else our houses would be full of rats and bugs and we would all be vegan. so are you gonna start eating soy beans and salad? im not..

[Lono]

continued.

I dont' understand how you can just sit back and think:
"theres no such thing as a right choice,, there are just choices,, or different paths.what a person truely and deeply percives as right stems directly back to there morals wich is linked directly to there religion and culture."

So by this, you think that the nazi's killed millions of Jews because it was in their culture or beliefs??? Come on.
They knew deep down it was wrong, but the "evil" (or what ever you want to call it), engrossed them, I'm sure it even turned some of them on. some became numb to it, while others loved it.
Evil can be very contageous, blinding, and misleading. By believing that there is no such a thing as evil is completely naive. Bad, evil, wrong, sin, ..I don't care what you call it..it exhists.
no thats actually far away from the point i was trying to make. but ironically enough,, when hitler came to power germany was in the lowest point of an economical depression. the country was depressed and poverty stricken and when hitler came around with his charisma,, his idologies of the german superiority, and his big palns for the future of germany,, people suddenly felt proud and excited and there additude was fuck the rest of the world,, we will conqure you.
they were driven by ego and pride and greed,, and they were manipulated by a charismatic leader.
yes it was bad,, and Yes i believe a lot of nazi soldiers enjoyed there jobs,, maby even in the same way a hunter gets a rush from shotgunning an elk from his chair in the tree. yah,, i think killing humans is fucked up and wrong and sure,, ill even go as far as calling it evil,, but you have to accept that evil is something that weve created,, and it is completely subjective in the end. there no argument to this.

back to our origional topic.. i dont see how you can call the kid in the picture with the candles an EVIL person. he hasnt harmed anyone. sure he may be confused and sure he may not have the perspective to make a statement as extreme as that,, BUT,, do you really think YOU have all of the facts? do you really think YOU have the ultimate "superior" perspective? are you sure that you have made all of the RIGHT decisions?
all you have is the interpritation of all that you have seen and heard. thats all everyone has.. some have seen and heard more,, and some less,, and yes,, some people fall prey to there own egos and lie to themselves as they march blindly towards empty causes,, but thats not evil,, thats ego.
how can you be sure this kid id consumed by ego? you cant really. especially without ever talking to him first hand.

heres an aplickable paralell. americans are very driven by patriotic pride,,, so were the germans.. pride can be decieving and is a tool for manipulation.. maby that was his point?
probably not,, but do you see my point?

-Lono

[Coma]

sheesh. I've had this same discussion so many times...

I agree with most of what lono has said.

Though.
There IS a core right and wrong that is part of the human mind no matter what culture or upbringing.

Conceptually there are two extreme points to everything that exists, male/female, light/darkness, hate/love I could go on for hours, but those are some of the less complex ones.

And right and wrong like darkness and light have a middle ground. Because of this its easy for humans to lie to them selves to the point that they see something that is destructive as being justified because of whatever.

But no one can justify saying that right and wrong don't exist. If that was possible there would be no reason to lock away the murderers in cells until they understand the gravity of their actions.

What makes the majority of all human life want peace? It all goes back to their base form of survival.

That is why we can easily understand why serial killers kill.

In an argument one of the worst mistakes you can make is to place your reason solely on a subjective word like "evil"
The word that explains one of the extremes of human prospective...

[Lono]

i agree with you coma.. you are speaking of dualitys.

but let me rephrase what im saying when i say there is no such thing as wright and wrong. im saying that WE as humans created the realms for right and wrong to exist in. you follow?
so ultimately we have created right and wrong,, and it is woven very deeply into the fabric of our rationality.
ofcourse we govern ourselves by it,, but that doesnt mean we didnt create it. killers are in jail not only because we are punishing them for making bad choices but they have prooven themselves to be a danger to us. people do have the natural programing to want to preserve there own lives and lifestyle,, therefor,, anything and anyone that would threaten that would be viewed as Bad,, and for that idea to work the same has to apply to yourself. but it is a social and cultural invention. our natural and most primitive instincts tell us to fight and kill and fuck and do what ever it takes so that we can spread our genes as much as possable in order to preserve our genetic line and ultimately our race,, just like apes in the wild. but through our social advancements weve created morals. its a social invention.

-Lono

[Lono]

any minute now some philosophy/sociology major is gonna come in here and make me look like an asshole.

im sure of it.


-Lono

[otis]

LOL..boy we are all getting WAY too deep...but fun food for thought!
Good discussion guys....when are we going to have another Thunderdome competition???? I'm getting tired of all these great discussions. Time for a beer!
:chug:

[the_blur]

Originally posted by Lono
[B]stalecracker: hahahaha thats great!

the_blur: no problem man,, were all friends here. :)
[quote]
i still have to disagree with you on your opinions of physical violence as a solution to openly opinionated people.


You're certainly entitled, a lot of people disagree with me on this.

i guarantee that there is someone out there who finds your way of life and opinions completely offensive and if you expressed them openly,, do you think that they wold have the right to beat your ass?

I think that I am far too sweet and friendly a guy to generate such feelings, but if I generate that sort of antipathy they are certainly entitled to try their hand at kicking my ass =)

lets say,, if i decided to wear a t shirt that said, "WORSHIP SATAN" in all caps.. god knows there are plenty of "Jesus is lord" shirts out there, and it is my right to express my religion,, but you know what,, that shirt would REALLY piss off a lot of devout christians to the point where they would like to do me physical harm.

I see those at LEAST once a day if not more, I don't mind them at all. If they want to beat on you for it, that constitutes religious violence. That's when you call shady characters like me, we can teach people that no one's imaginary friend is better than anyone else's =)

Fred

[mcotie]

Lono is totally on track

Look at history.
old school Pagans had no problem with whackin a neighborhood sweetheart for the prosperity of the community. This was considered a GOOD thing. I can assure you that before Monotheism cloaked the earth there was no such thiung as good vs. evil. It was all about life as a cycle. the universe or the cosmos in an eternal cycle. Along come the Egotistical, male, the one and only, mighty, worship me or roast in hell eternally God, and all of a sudden there is good and evil.

The belief before this was, do harm to man/life and disrupt the sacred cycle of life. This was probably considered blasphemy and not evil.

When these two religiolns (as with any) colided they each thought the other was doing diservice. Christians were considered freaks, pagans were satan worshipers and the rest is history. When it comes to religion and spiritual beliefs no one person is incorrect or correct. We as mortal, flesh/blood humans, will discover the truth after we die. I feel that each person should keep their afterlife beliefs to themselves for the most part and not shove em down anyone elses throat.

so how the hell does any of this relate? hell I don't know you started it.


he he

mitch

[silent Insanity]

I agree with lono on the good and evil theory. Take a look at the old testement or even parts of the new one and youll be suprised at what is culturaly accepted in what is suposed to be the most holy of books:rolleyes:. A different time different place and different type of culture affects what they think is right. How the religions at the time view their bible has alot to do with what is culturaly acceptable to the world. All the radical Muslims are doing right now is following their religion, god help us when the christians and jews start to follow theirs.

[Clodhopper]

I disagree-but to a small degree...

Religion/society can be a very conveinient excuse to justify your actions. I can't help but think that all those people out there who think they can kill others becuase its "god's will" are truly evil, no doubt in my mind. Doesn't everyone have a feeling of awareness inside them that goes beyond anything a preacher, a book or even a culture can try and convince them? doesn't matter what a society tries to press upon you, it should always feel horrible to kill somebody. people are not that innocent that they can be completely bent from their awareness by their faith/culture.

and I beleive that there are justified killings, I'm not one of those tree-huggers that says "all killing is wrong" or whatever. but "Justified killings" should ALWAYS be based upon events that happen on this earth. I just find that attitude that "well its okay cuase their gods told them to do it" is a bunch of bullshit. If you invent or follow a god that tells you to kill people, yer evil. its just that simple to me.

Also, it erks me greatly to hear our President useing terms like good and evil and god. I beleive those three elements cloud good judement and rational action like no other. IMHO the white house should not be able to use those words at all, especially when they are trying to justify any kind of action "in God's name". It's brazen and self rightious, whether its Christian, Muslim whatever faith.

so in review; Just becuase society tells you to do it, don't make it right. and just cuase you are acting on yer faith, doesn't mean yer not evil.

[otis]

So it seems like most poeple here believe this:

We live ina world where there are weapons of mass destruction. And if you have an enemy that has these weapons, we should just hope that they never use them.
We also have terrorist who will use them. But if they use them , can't do anything about it because they"technically" are not a soveriegn nation, just an organization.

The only way we were allowed to go after the Taliban was because they ran Afghanastan? Now they are spread out everywhere...so our hands are tied?

So now Al-Queda can go around killing masses of innocent americans..and America shouldn't do anything because they don't control any body of land or county? What do we do then?

Everyone is saying that the terrorists have "no connection to Iraq" How do they know? Of course they don't run it, but they just car bombed an Australian jouranlist in northern Iraq.
These same conspiracy theorists want to believe that our gov't is making up this relationship with Iraq.. In my opinion, if you have 2 different groups who have a common enemy, I say they are both in the same boat.

So my question is ..what do we do about the terrorists?

[otis]

oh yeah...and according to you guys who don't believe in good or evil...then then what do you consider terroism???

[mcotie]

Originally posted by otis
So it seems like most poeple here believe this:

We live ina world where there are weapons of mass destruction. And if you have an enemy that has these weapons, we should just hope that they never use them.
We also have terrorist who will use them. But if they use them , can't do anything about it because they"technically" are not a soveriegn nation, just an organization.



We have organizations in place to take care of people that use weapons of mas distraction. If the process doesn't work we must develope a plan to see that it does. I don't think it is wrong to take care of enemies that have them and plan to use them. Make them pay. As a community, that shares the earth. Our so called experts say that Iraq would not have been able to deliver these weapons for another 10 years. Korea much sooner. We rushed into this, becasue we could. We didn't rush into the Korea episode because it wouldn't have been so easy. The finding of the chemical plant (possible) is great news and gives us more support in our hasty decision. but it also proved that with more time the UN could have found this place too.


The only way we were allowed to go after the Taliban was because they ran Afghanastan? Now they are spread out everywhere...so our hands are tied?


Afghanistan was a terrorist nest. It was obvious that they were brewing them in this country. What we did there was justified. But for some reason, we don't give it ENOUGH attention. there is still cancer there and needs more attention.
They were a direct link to 9/11 attacks.

Now by attacking Iraq we are only helping their cause. Securing Iraq is going to be more difficult than Afghanistan. Unless we can turn their people to our favor.


So now Al-Queda can go around killing masses of innocent americans..and America shouldn't do anything because they don't control any body of land or county? What do we do then?

Nobody said this was going to be easy. We are doing a good job so far of finding Osama's dudes.


Everyone is saying that the terrorists have "no connection to Iraq" How do they know? Of course they don't run it, but they just car bombed an Australian jouranlist in northern Iraq.
These same conspiracy theorists want to believe that our gov't is making up this relationship with Iraq.. In my opinion, if you have 2 different groups who have a common enemy, I say they are both in the same boat.

So my question is ..what do we do about the terrorists?

We do know that Iraq was paying Hamas' family members big loot to sacrifice themselves in Israel/Palestine. We know that Saddam has a group of special soldiers that sacrifice themselves in the same manner and will when we get into Bagdad. There's no doubt he wields terror. But Iraq could have been taken care of differently than we did in Afghanistan.

I will elaborate more on this after I contemplate.

[Coma]

oh yeah...and according to you guys who don't believe in good or evil...then then what do you consider terroism???


Apparently your black and white view of everything is impeding your ability to actually read and understand a well though out discussion.

[otis]

Coma..I'm just giving u guys shit....I know you guys all know bad from good. I just get concerned when we start getting way too philisophical...you know the kind of arguments like:
"Who's to say what evil is..?,...."
Or "this culture believes this and they believe that, so who's to say who is right or wrong.."

As for religion, I beleive that they all have similar base beliefs, just interprited differently, you know?.Hell, the Muslims, Christians, Jews..they all believe in the same Guy I think...their cultures, interpritations and histories with eachother screw everything up.

just a thought

[otis]

sorry just read your last post and dualities...I agree...

[Lono]

otis

wouldnt you also agree that philosophy is the base foundation that politics is built on? thats why if youve ever taken a collage course on economics, government, or politics,, you are usually required to first take a class on philosophy as a prerequisite. now i do agree that there comes a point where if you theorize too much and take no action it becomes foolish,, but consider the latter.. people who are too quick to take action are not only foolish but dangerous. everything in life is a balancing act.

also i think you may be over generalizing on your interpritation that "most people here" think we should remain action-less on terrorism,, and the theoretical weapons of mass destructuion..
shouldnt this be in "the war" thread?

-Lono

[cyclonaut]

Damn dude! (lono)

I had no idea you were so freakin' philosophical!

It's amazing. I feel exactly the same way about all this garbage. I've just never deeply thought about it..or put into words like you have. Some of your interpretations have got me completely swimmin'. You totally opened up my mind with alot of your posts.

DAMN!

This is the coolest thread ever!

Although, I think you are being misinterpreted in some places.

:chug:

I'm proud to be your bro.

[otis]

sorry, I thought this was a war thread.

[otis]

Hey I'm all about balance in life ! Could not agree with you more.

[Lono]

wow Ben,, thats so cool of you to say that. i dont know what to say.

i didnt think you would be hangin around in the lounge.

when are you gonna post some of your art man? i think these guys would really be into it.

if you need to,, send it to me and ill find a way to put it up for you.

-Lono

[mcotie]

another art family!! cool. I've been trying to get my sis' to post. She's lurkin.

mitch

[cyclonaut]

HAHA!

No Prob!

I'm planning on posting once I get my webpage together!

:evilbat:

[Faxtar]

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/1108901

[otis]

Faxtar,

you have a right to your opinion, but if that is your website, you make me sick.You are an ignorant, sorry, pathetic, little person, how dare you compare our president to the nazi's .

why don';t you go over to Iraq and volunteer yourself as a human shield.

[otis]

now if that is not your work then disregard my last post...that image of Bush as a Nazi is wrong.

[otis]

sorryFaxtar,
just noticed that was the work of diviant, some socialist sick punk who needs to get his ass kicked out of this country.
Once again, sorry.

[Lono]

sigh...

[Faxtar]

No problem Otis, i agree with the stuff you say on these boards. I just found that Pic and thought :bash:

[tyboogie]

yea!!! lets kick everyone out of this country that doesnt share our perspective!!! i want America to be full of people who all think the same!!! death to deviants!!!

[Coma]

Lets not start this shit up again, its obvious some people don't try to gain knowledge from discussion, but rather consider everything an argument.

[mcotie]

This whole world is completely filled with fundamentalists. All corners of it. Like a big bag of fundamental skittles. each a different flavor, each "better" than the other.

[otis]

there is nothing wrong with having your opinion, or beliefs.
It's another thing to be blatantly ubsurd and deviant just to piss people off. So tyboogie, you are missing my point.
People who are against the war, don't agree with certain policies, whatever,.. that's fine.
But to twist history, or meaning to symbols, ie: associating our president to Nazi's is wrong. Maybe to some people they don't know who or what the Nazi's actually did, but ignorance is not an excuse either.

I don't care how much you disagree with a president we might have, but in the end whether you like it or not, our president represents us. so when people make these crazy associations, they are calling all americans Nazis.

[otis]

Hell, call him a jack-ass, moron, dunce, idiot...i don't care, but calling him a Nazi goes over the line and is farther from the truth.

[otis]

Tye boogie,

Maybe you don't know the difference, but this country was founded on a Republic Democracy, not socialism. And although socialism is making its way more and more into our system, it is not what this country was founded on. So, once again, people can have thier beliefs in socialism, but if they want to live in that type of society, they should move to China, N. Korea, ...

[otis]

Lono,
If I understand your sigh correctly, listen, that guy Diviant who pissed me off makes himself look like a complete extreme ani-democracy socialsit....We all here can have open dicussions, but you should have read some of the crazy crap comming from this guy. His posts sounded as crazy as the terroists who want to kill all americans. But if you want to defend him, I think you are seriously mistaken.

[Lono]

i dont want to start this back up again either.

i really dont want to read that whole thread..
i have no interest in defending that guys opinions, "what ever they are",, but i would defend him if someone threatened to throw him out of this country for having them..

-Lono

[Faxtar]

I guess its my fault for bringing it back.
So here, let the dancing bananna dance away your troubles...
:nana :nana :nana :nana :nana :nana

[otis]

You know what's funny? somtimes i think we are all on the same page, but we have trouble understanding eachother over a message board, I mean I admit , I'm a terrible writer, much better at speaking.
So on with the dancing bananas!!!:nana :dance: