C.O.W. - Summer Break!!!

[Fozzybar]

COW - Summer Break!

[Fozzybar]

COW is tired and needs a break!

The last 4 rounds had clearly less entries than the ones before (especially the last one with only 10 entries)...

This break will be a good chance to increase the interest again and make some artists hungry for the next rounds...

We will use this thread for any posts according to COW meanwhile...post your thoughts, comments or discuss anything which is topic related...

Happy holidays COW and thank you to all who supported this activity with his/her entries, comments, votes and whatever!!! :^^:

...oh, and THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MATT DIXON for another cool COW-Image :)

[AngryScientist]

Actually I think a summer break isn't such a good idea as I have been waiting for my break from school and graduation to participate in this. But no biggie, I'll hone my skills and come here and hopefully have a shot at competing with the others hehe..

[fungi]

i think its really sad and lame that your doing this fozzy. at least could you let sombody else take over?

[0kelvin]

He's not doing it for his own sake, he's doing it because the interest level has dropped. I think a break could be beneficial.

How long is the summer break going to last? I hope not the whole summer. I miss COW already.



0kelvin

[fungi]

interest hasnt been lost, the topic quality has however.

[BrainBug]

maybe you could do 2 week COW's till end of summer, maybe more people would join then + you don't have to stop?

[croovman]

after like two months of having a test or two every week I'll finally be done with them next week and have time for such cool and fun activities like COW, and you decide to take a break.. >:| mega lame, dude :(

[GreenTopaz]

but the last one was my first one and I was really looking forward to more ;__; now I'm gonna have to wait all summer? aw...

[chimera]

i think community activities is overlooked somewhat. people looking for challenges(like myself) are looking in the challenge section... not in the community activities. i'm new to conceptart and think the cow is great.. i was looking to start posting. it is my favorite challenge, or the most useful for what i'm looking to accomplish.

i like the idea of having it bi-weekly, maybe a reminder in the challenge forum might bring in more interest? just a thought.

friday = :vodka2: :vodka1: weeee

[Fozzybar]

Come on, people, there is a life out of this forum...i did this because the interest dropped, just as 0kelvin said...

Until round #14 we had at least 20 entries for each round, here is an overview:

#15 Gluttonous Emperor: 14 Entries
#16 Evolutionary Dead End: 14 Entries
#17 Hill Stomper: 18 entries
#18 Sewer Beast: 10 Entries

So, there is a clear tendency, that whatever the reasons are, members didn't participate like before.

I think that the winners of the last rounds wouldn't have won if the participation were like the rounds before. That's not fair and also not good for the activity...

See it as a Apollo Creed method to light the eye of the tiger in you ;) No pain!!! Adriaaaan...

And for those who are complaining that they have time now...well there are always people who have the time and others don't...but simply the hot weather is definitely a reason not to sit on the pc for more people...

[Fozzybar]

ok, added a poll to see how you feel about this :)

[BrainBug]

you could also just open a topic, and each time there aren't 25 good entries add another week to the deadline,... oh, and end it after 4 weeks so it doesn't get too boring and you can do two of those during summer.

if you do get 25 entries it shows you were wrong :D if you don't get 25, well, at least me and a lot of others have a reason to keep checking our favorite part of this forum :)

[Main Loop]

Dang. And I was hoping to prove I can make an original creature for once.

[Fozzybar]

All of you...have a look at the activity IDM:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45875

It desperatly needs some attention...it could be a good thing while COW is relaxing...

[OxCreative]

Hey Foz, perhaps since there has been a lot of people who get free time in the summer because they have graduated or having a school summer holiday etc it might be good to do a COW SUMMER SPECIAL, i.e. An extended entry time (a few weeks instead of 1) and the topic could be some sort of creature in the summer (like the cow mascot relaxing (v. good btw!))


what do people think of this? :teeth:

[cartoonfox]

doh, just as im about the get into this, now that i have finished college for ever ^-^
but i still voted for that its a good idea, there has been slightley less interest the last few rounds, i'll just have to let the thunderdome keep me occupied ^-^

btw fozzy, when do you think COW will be back?






peace :7up:

[Fozzybar]

well, i am not sure, but i thought something between 1-2 months...

[oracrest]

oh, i get it, Fozz, thats great! "Summer Break" is this week's topic! very very interpretive. I dig it. can't wait to see what people come up with for this one :P

[Matt Dixon]

Seeing as most comments seem to be against the idea of a summer break, I'd just like to speak up in Fozzybar's defence.

As he says, interest in the COW has clearly fallen off. Maybe it's because of the topics ( though I don't see how 'Sewer Beast' is radically different from 'Cloud Dweller', for example ) or summer is here ( it seems as if participation in the forums overall has been a little quiet lately ) but I think it's just as likely to be that people have just become a little bored after almost 20 rounds. A few weeks off should help recharge our creative juices, give us all time to think about ways to improve the COW activity and hopefully discuss them here, and means that Fozzy can relaunch the activity with a burst of forum marketing which will hopefully bring in more participants. I think a break is a good idea.

I agree it's bad timing for anyone who's just joined in or has time on their hands now school is out, but there are other activities on the site to join in with - and there's 18 previous COW topics to practise with until she goes live again..! :wink:

As far as things to think about for the COW's return goes -

# I'd like to see some variation in topics. Maybe an occasional open round where everyone can just let their imagination go wild?

# I hope the downtime will give us the chance to organise a higher profile for the COW. There was some talk about announcing winners ( and maybe each new round? ) on the front page. I think that's a great idea for getting updates on the largely redundant front page of the site, and might help bring us a little more traffic.

# 'Celebrity' COWs! It'd be great if some name artists could turn up from time to time to shake things up a bit. I'm sure some of the 'forum fathers' could be persuaded to support the activity once in a while. I know we have several professional contributors already, but the more the merrier!

[Matt Smith]

I have seen COW on the forum before but never knew what it was until tonight. I wish it wasnt taking a break its like an advanced DSG and I only wish I knew about it sooner. So COW better take a short summer break because I want to have some fun. Also Shadoman your work looks like its made a big improvement, I havent seen your stuff in along time, but I liked what I saw you post up for COW. Great work.

[Zaknafain]

I like matt dixons proposals, especially the last one. I think COW would really grow a lot after such things.

Anyway, regarding the topics, a poll could help. Because if the topic is choosen by a poll, at the end no one can complain about bad topics. /m\

[0kelvin]

I definitely agree with Matt Dixon. Let's take the downtime to make sure that when COW comes back it'll be bigger than it's ever been!

Although 2 months is an awful long time. I think a month would be plenty.



0kelvin

[OxCreative]

Hey foz, another idea i have is when COW returns you could do a league. So everyone who is interested in cow signs up at the beginning and then points are given for 1st 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th in the poll.

This would ensure more people compete because if they do not enter each week they would fall down to the bottom of the league.

What do you think everyone?

[Matt Dixon]

Because if the topic is choosen by a poll, at the end no one can complain about bad topics.
Oh, I'm sure someone would manage it! To be honest, I think the topics are largely irrelevant - in fact, one could argue that the topics that you might find difficult or unappealing are precisely the topics that should be tackled in order for this to be an effective learning exercise. Particularly so for all the prospective concept artists out there, who can be damn sure they'll be handed uninspiring or generic briefs day after day in their professional lives and will be expected to produce something exciting whether it appeals to them or not. Better get over it now, lads. :wink:

Seriously though, one thing we can all do to improve the COW is to show the activity all the support we can - try to contribute as often as possible and promote the activity to other artists, for example. This is the most relevant activity on the board, and it deserves to thrive.

[Uziel]

There are other activities you can participate or just start a personal cow with the creatures that are mentioned in the topic idea thread.

I'm sure the COW will return but 2 months is pretty long.
MOOoooo...

I think IDM's interest is much lower than cow. perhaps Davi should start a topic idea thread too. Or make it Industrial & character design to get more variation.

[Fozzybar]

# I'd like to see some variation in topics. Maybe an occasional open round where everyone can just let their imagination go wild?
As once decided in the ideas thread i think it's a good idea, but this was changed after the winner was allowed to pick the topic.



# I hope the downtime will give us the chance to organise a higher profile for the COW. There was some talk about announcing winners ( and maybe each new round? ) on the front page. I think that's a great idea for getting updates on the largely redundant front page of the site, and might help bring us a little more traffic.
Well, i sent Andrew and Jason a pm about this idea...they replied and agreed that it is a good idea...i just looked in my folder they replied on May 4th...I think we could arrange this for the relaunch of COW...



# 'Celebrity' COWs! It'd be great if some name artists could turn up from time to time to shake things up a bit. I'm sure some of the 'forum fathers' could be persuaded to support the activity once in a while. I know we have several professional contributors already, but the more the merrier!
This and a few other things i will try to organize for the relaunch, be assured that i won't sit in the sun and do nothing about COW. After the Summer Break there will be new cool features, which will COW help to start with a record participation i think...;)


Hey foz, another idea i have is when COW returns you could do a league. So everyone who is interested in cow signs up at the beginning and then points are given for 1st 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th in the poll.

This would ensure more people compete because if they do not enter each week they would fall down to the bottom of the league.

What do you think everyone?
As a statistic freak i think this is a nice idea and it wouldn't take much more effort to do this...so what is the rest of you thinking?



Btw the poll idea for picking topics is something i don't like:

1. It's time consuming
2. in most cases a topic will have a lead after a few days, which is like a early kick-off for this round, but every COW should last 1 week, not more not less
3. As Matt said, the topic you don't like could be a challenge...and actually there were no topic which was really that bad to accuse the less participation. "Venomous Bird" for example would have very less entries if we started it in the last weeks, because it's not a better topic than sewer beast. It's more challenging and people were earlier in the mood of taking this challenges of harder topics...

[Matt Dixon]

The league's a good idea if it encourages people to make the extra effort to participate to hold their ranking. But...

It unfairly penalizes anyone who is genuinely too busy to contribute regularly, meaning someone's standing could be based more on how much free time they have than actual quality of work. Not necessarily a bad thing, though.

I would imagine there would be a lot of work involved keeping everyone's stats up to date - especially if the return of the COW attracts more participants. How would the league table be displayed?

There's a ( mostly :wink: ) friendly, supportive vibe amongst the COW crew, and I'd worry about making things too competetive. I wasn't really sure about the winners poll and stars, but that's proved to be a nice incentive. The difference there is that the vote we have now is just for that week, and everyone starts the following round as equals - maybe having a place in the league to worry about would change people's attitude a bit? Probably not, but it seems like the COW should be about support rather than competition.

Just thoughts. On balance, I think it'd probably be a positive thing, but I don't know if the benefits would be worth the work of maintaining it all.

[Wishes]

I think you should NEVER stop. I've seen it at other art/design-forums, the forum just dies...

It's better to have low participation than no topics at all, because people don't come back anymore, they really don't..

[Uziel]

I will keep posting on this forum.
And when the COW restarts I'll be there.

Why don't we have a COW after one month then you can show your best creature you came up with during that month.

[Pupil]

It's a shame the break has come at such an awkward time (i.e. when people have the most free time from work commitments). While competition may have decreased I don't think the quality of winning images has. There have been some interesting re-launch ideas but the only thing that attracts me to the league is that it may keep people committed to COW. However, stars, the support of fellow competitors and the chance to get several hundred people to see your artwork is all the incentive anyone should need! In COW's absence, maybe you could put up a thread to let people showcase the creatures they come up with over the (hopefully short) break?

[Pupil]

On a side note, we now have Industrial Design and Creature Design, so how about Environmental Design? At the risk of spreading members’ time too thinly and considering the relative unpopularity of Industrial design it may not be worth the hassle but I am sure that there are members who would enjoy the challenge of this activity. See: here (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46707) for a related thread. A re-launch of COW could be a good opportunity to bring really put this Community Activities forum at the heart of CA. I don't know if this has come under discussion before but please tell me what you think.

[Flip]

I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of participation recently is related more to end of semester, everyone having to devote more time to other studies, I know that's why I've hardly entered. It's quite possible that entries might rapidly increase as people start having the time to contribute. My feeling is that 2 months is too long, a special Summer COW with a slightly different format might be a good way to go - 2 weeks for each topic - at least then you'll be able to justify whether it's having a break.
On a side note I'm appalled by the discrimation between hemispheres - 'summer' break, I mean really :wink:

[S.C. Watson]

Hmmm....

I personally have mixed feelings about the break and can understand both sides of the argument. I'm feeling some serious guilt for not participating the past couple of weeks. Mea culpa. Forgive me Fozz. :S

However, if Fozzy feels there's a need for a break, I support him. I can't imagine the burdon and amount of time it must take running this thing - and who knows, with a little down time perhaps Fozzy (and the rest of us) can think of some ways to really snazz it up. I like the idea of getting some big names in here - can you just *imagine* something from Jon Foster, Marko, DSIllustration or el coro? That would be awesome.

So, let's see what happens, and spread the word. And, there's always the DSG (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=39) for some good fun to be had. William b. Hand has done a great job of taking over for the DSGbot, and the topics no longer suck like they did for a while. I think he deserves some support as well.

I don't really want to see the COW stop, but understand the reasons for the reprieve. I'm willing to wait.

For a little while :needle:

Cheers,
~Oreg.

[arteric]

Hello All,

It has been some time now since I have been able to post or participate in any of the COW weeks. I have lurked, and watched, and I can completely see Fozzy's point with the drop off in entries.

Don't beat a dead horse (or COW.... although I wouldn't go nearly as far as to call COW dead), but also don't pound something into the ground. Time off is fine, people need time off now and then. Muscles only grow after a workout if you take the relaxation time needed for them to heal, and sometimes it is the same with the creative muscle as well. (If you are wondering where that muscle is, bend over, tighten your calf muscles, lift your left arm high above you and rotate to the right about 15 degrees, you should feel it flex just across your lower chest.)

Anyway, I planned on returning to COW shortly, but this just means (to quote Fozzy) that I will be hungry for more. So cheer up people, it is a summer break, now you have time to read that book you've been wanting to get to, or paint that great masterpiece. Or maybe get out from behind the computer screen and socialize a wee bit more. Be it whatever, make the most of it and let your creative juices stew until COW's return.

I, for one, will be waiting......

Eric

[leckronium]

I've had another idea for quite some time now about how I would like to see COW operate. It can be a little frustrating entering a contest when you're unknown and enter a really well done piece just to be overlooked and outvoted by a flawed shit entry by a professional who gets a good portion of popularity votes. I've seen it happen many times in the 16 straight weeks I've done COW. There are too many good artists here who deserve more credit than they have gotten and I feel that sometimes this isn't so much as a community but more like a clique. I'd like to see less ass patting and more critiquing and constructive criticism where it's needed. I came up with this idea because of this but felt no one else would go for it. Plus I wasn't sure that the structure of it could be done throughout the forums so I let it slip by for a while. It seems this is the perfect time to suggest it. So here it is in a simplistic unedited form:

I like the star rankings. I like how the winners earn stars next to the icon for the contests in which they came from. It's motivated me enough to try and make an effort to win that one star next to mine (never got there yet). I would like to see more of this. The way I see this is think of the rankings of a military. Different soldiers are decorated differently according to what they have done within the military (this being conceptart). I would like to see all the activities and contests here at ca.o have designated icons and possibly be moved to the same general area ( this would only pertain to the contests that offer these rewards). Now this isn't too far off from what is already being done but here's where my idea really shows.

I would like to see COW voting (and possible future contests) organized through ranks. This way entries would be competing against those of similar rank or skill level. Once so many contests are won at that skill level, then the rank goes up, and the competition gets a bit tougher. The only way you can win at your skill level is that there has to be at least one other entry to compete against. If there are no others then you simply do not recieve a star. So this means when you go to cast a vote, you will not just be choosing the best, but the best from each ranking that's present in the contest. If 4 different ranks are competing then you will have to choose a winner for each rank. Those winners will recieve a star and if they have reached the maximum stars for that rank then they move up to a higher rank and will then compete from then on with those people of that higher rank.

I'm thinking that this will encourage a lot more people to participate as the rewards are more in reach than trying to top the professional of the week. Plus it would be nice to see the weekly battles between the higher ranks and it would still give hope to the lower ranks who will also be winning as well. I think fitting this format into other competitions would help too. If a new member wanted to become highly decorated then they would have to participate in a variety of competitions. I guess it would be like a boy scout going for a certain badge. The most important thing of all is that this wouldn't be for work outside of conceptart. This is for the accomplishments that were earned by participating in community activities. After all, isn't this what it's all about, being a community?

If this were to actually be accepted I think there could be some fun had with this. Once the structure is figured out then contests could be held for the icons that are going to represent each contest and rank. Playing a name game could be fun too. We would have to find names to replace ranks such as corporal, captain, general, etc.. and fit them to our art community. I think this system would be much more rewarding to everyone and bring everyone a little closer together as a community. It would benefit new comers to be able to look at a members decorations and instantly tell what they have accomplished and encourage them to participate in a particular contest if they want to earn that icon or rank. This may even be able to carry through to the rating of threads. I know this debate is currently going on in the lounge I believe. Maybe looking at the rank of the poster can determine something about the thread? I dunno it's just a thought.

Again I tried to keep this fairly simple and short enough so people won't fall asleep halfway through. I'm sure there are things I haven't thought of and things I've forgotten to mention but as a starting idea I think it might work. Especially since this would be a good time to consider it. I'm not even sure if it could be worked into the structure of the site or would have to be done by moderators for each contest. I guess it would depend on how widely accepted the idea is.

:thinking:

[possessed]

... It can be a little frustrating entering a contest when you're unknown and enter a really well done piece just to be overlooked and outvoted by a flawed shit entry by a professional who gets a good portion of popularity votes. ... I'd like to see less ass patting and more critiquing and constructive criticism where it's needed...

I completely agree though I wouldn't use 'really flawed shit' since I haven't really seen that here yet. But whenever voting is, all the same people (who are already good or do this for a living) get comments and critique and those of us who are still struggling or learning receive almost none. If this activity is supposed to be for the (top)skilled that's fine but please don't ignore those that try their best. Lastly I wanna say I keep learning from watching this forum, it's an awesome place for inspiration.

On the topic of a summer break I'd say no. I don't think the turnup will be that much greater in 2 months, we just need some better topics imho. Some fantastic titles that will sparkle the imagination.

[OxCreative]

Hey, i like the idea leckronium because there is unfairness and favouritism for professionals on these boards.
(COW #12 Nocturnal Predator is an example - no offence to you Mike, your work was good but there were many other entries that should have got more votes than they did - e.g. simmi, leckronium etc)

Voting for Pro's because they are pro's isn't fair on the people who put in the work and don't get rewarded and its also not fair on the pro's - even pro's will still be developing their techniques and skills and need comments and crits rather than an ass-kissing post saying how great they are.

If you merged your idea leckronium, with my league idea, you could have three or four leagues depending on the skill of the artist. After each season the top of each of the leagues move up (apart from the top league) and the bottom out of the leagues are relegated.

This way as people improve they move up to face tougher challanges and if they slack they fall down the leagues.

[Fozzybar]

The league's a good idea if it encourages people to make the extra effort to participate to hold their ranking. But...
It unfairly penalizes anyone who is genuinely too busy to contribute regularly, meaning someone's standing could be based more on how much free time they have than actual quality of work. Not necessarily a bad thing, though.Hmmm...if your entries are good enough to reach place 1-3, you don't need to participate often, to collect high points... :P


I would imagine there would be a lot of work involved keeping everyone's stats up to date - especially if the return of the COW attracts more participants. How would the league table be displayed?There would be a thread only for the league-table...pasting the points for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd and sorting it after points shouldn't be a big deal i think...maybe i can use Excel to copy the table... :dad:


The difference there is that the vote we have now is just for that week, and everyone starts the following round as equals - maybe having a place in the league to worry about would change people's attitude a bit?Well, that is a point you have...i would believe in the good of everyone :) Then again there is an option to run polls with showing the members name under the entry they voted for, hehe... :D


I think you should NEVER stop. I've seen it at other art/design-forums, the forum just dies...
It's better to have low participation than no topics at all, because people don't come back anymore, they really don't..Well, we will prove this wrong...there will be a comeback of COW and it will be popular as before or even better... :teeth:


I will keep posting on this forum.
And when the COW restarts I'll be there.That's the right attitude!!! :yayca:


In COW's absence, maybe you could put up a thread to let people showcase the creatures they come up with over the (hopefully short) break?There is the creature thread in the sketches forum...a classic of ca, started by Joshua: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2215&goto=lastpost


so, whether or not the cow goes on a summer break, I will be taking a break from the cow until Sept. possiblySuuuuuuuuuuure....you can't resist i tell you ;)...and thanx for the kind words...


arteric, Oregano
thanx for the backup, you're the COWs we need...:)


On the topic of a summer break I'd say no. I don't think the turnup will be that much greater in 2 months, we just need some better topics imho. Some fantastic titles that will sparkle the imagination.Well does "venomous bird" sparkle your fantasy more than "sewer beast", "hill stomper" or "evolutionary dead end"? Or "cute but deadly"? No ,definitively not! Forget complaining about the topics...it's not the reason for less participation...
But i agree with you on the point, that pro's get more crits than others, though it's a normal thing imo...


leckronium
hmmm... i think your idea with the rankings is quite nice, but it is a time-killer for the mods/admins to organize this. This idea only will work and be successfull, if the ranks, leagues etc were updated in time...i don't see a chance to realize this...maybe it will work for the first few weeks, but not for the long distance...:(
How do you imagine the COW-activity to work? We had to make at least 4 different polls for voting - 1 for each rank (currently 0-3 stars)...setting up the threads for 1 COW-round (including reading through all entries, judging if they are acceptable, closing posting-thread, opening poll-thread, copying nicks, images and concept-text to the new thread, setting up the poll, starting thread for the next round, editing winner-piece of the last round in ps for posting it in the winner gallery) takes me about 1 - 2 hours...now doing this for 4 different ranks is not feasible...even if we had more mods, they could only alternate for each week, you can't do this for one round parallely...

But i see your point about battlening against pros and getting frustrated because many members vote for popular members or pros not paying attention to the unknown jewels or struggling beginners...i read, quoted and wrote so much, that i can't think of a solution right now, but i will think about it when my mind is clear again :)...meanwhile all of you can post their ideas to solve the problem of having no chances/motivation for less skilled or known participants without a big time consuming solution...thx! :bashful:

[Fozzybar]

BTW i started a new thread for useful links, so people can get some alternatives during the summer break:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?p=516098

[leckronium]

Here's how I thought COW could work:

Posting the entries wouldn't change at all. Everybody would continue to post and comment as they normally do. When the posting thread closes and the voting poll is started, the entries will be rearranged into groups according to ranks. So the poll would look something like this:

Rank ????
0 Contestant 1
0 Contestant 5
0 Contestant 7
-----------------------------------------------------
Rank???
0 Contestant 4
0 Contestant 9
0 Contestant 10
0 Contestant 3
0 Contestant 6
-----------------------------------------------------
Rank??
0 Contestant 2
0 Contestant 8
-----------------------------------------------------
Rank?
0 Contestant 11

In this case, Contestant 11 is in a rank with no competitors so it will not be taken to poll for voting. Voting members will select a winning entry from each rank and the votes will be tallied. The winner from each rank will recieve a star the same way they do now. The avatar section of the members name will have to be adjusted to accomodate such information. It's currently set to show the COW icon and has stars next to it which is good but doesn't show the current rank the member holds in that contest. This could be done by assigning something like a set of bronze, silver, and gold versions of the same icon to suggest the rank (but maybe a few more possible colors for more different ranks, I just used bronze, silver, and gold as a standard example).

Now obviously I don't think we should post all the winners in the gallery. I think that's too many and we want to keep the gallery of high quality so maybe only accepting the top two ranks as being gallery possible. The lower ranks will still be recieving rewards but they will have to first move their way through the ranks in order to be posted in a gallery. I think this keeps the gallery top notch and still gives something for the lower ranks to look forward to while still being rewarded for their efforts.

As for ranks I think the numbers could be debated to figure how many it would take to move up a rank. But heres an example off the top of my head:

Rank ? - 6 stars to move up a rank
Rank ?? - 5 stars to move up a rank
Rank ??? - 4 stars to move up a rank
Rank ???? - 3 stars to move into top rank which will only show the number of stars from then on.

So as above, there are five ranks to hold (just a suggestion, there could be more). For each contest,(COW,IDM,any others???) An icon with 5 different modes would be needed to show rank. The number of stars next to the icon would show how many wins the member has and how many they are away from moving to the new rank. The top rank would just show a number of how many wins the member recieves after reaching the highest staus.

Everyone will start off as the lowest rank except you could carry over the current stars from the current winners over into the new ranks. If you did as an example, Matt would be three wins away from moving into the next rank. Once he reached that rank, however, in order to recieve any more wins he'll have to wait for a competitor to enter his rank. It sounds bad but shouldn't be since we will have a larger number of winners each round and the ranks will quickly adjust according to skill level.

Again this was a little more detailed but I don't know what the program that runs this site can do. This was just an idea for structure and I can't really say how it can be translated into the current program. I was hoping a moderator or administrator would see it and say " yeah, we could adjust the program for that set up" and still make it easy for the moderators to manage. I don't want to make any more work for you Fozzy so if this can't be done I'm ok with it. I just thought it was worth a try. :^^:

:yayca:

[Fozzybar]

Again this was a little more detailed but I don't know what the program that runs this site can do. This was just an idea for structure and I can't really say how it can be translated into the current program. I was hoping a moderator or administrator would see it and say " yeah, we could adjust the program for that set up" and still make it easy for the moderators to manage. I don't want to make any more work for you Fozzy so if this can't be done I'm ok with it. I just thought it was worth a try.

It's always worth a try :) but i am not the one, who sees it and says "yeah, we could adjust the program for that set up" ;)

So i still think it's a whole BUNCH of more work...

And i really don't like the idea that someone, who wants to participate can't take part at poll, because there are no contenders at his rank...

The conclusion for me is, that it's not possible to realize this...

We should try to keep it simple as this was one of the good things for COW...

But i appreciate your ideas and maybe someone can modify your idea to make it practicable...

[vigostar]

i think the ranking system would be a really cool idea... it would be a bit extra work for you but, I think it wold be worth it... Maybe at the end of the year you could have the top two rank or the top five ranks or artists battle it out in a all out no holds bard, barb wire, steel cage, with pipes, flame throwers, bazookas, and nuclear fucking bombs in the mix..! I dont know.. all I know is that many people feed off of competition... The newer guys are going to try harder to be in the top five at the end of the year and the older/ pro artists are going to try to save face against the new comers or growing artists... Maybe that one person/winner at the end of the year could get a snip on the front page? That would be great exposure for someone who is hungry... I really like the COW and I too have fallen due to lack of enthusiasm.. also, if ranks are being held then i think that as person should get lowered in rank or points when they miss a week.... The winner should be not only the best artists but a TRUE COW participant..

[OxCreative]

Wow everyone has really taken to the league/ratings ideas, i thought no one would like it.

Foz, as you said already you like the idea and others have said it too, perhaps there should be a poll of implementing a scoring system for COW or leaving it without one.

I think the idea to show who voted for who is also another good idea as then it prevents favouritism.

[nephilim]

I'm thinking that this will encourage a lot more people to participate as the rewards are more in reach than trying to top the professional of the week.


I understand a lot of your points, and even agree with that on certain levels. But this one i couldnt pass by.

I feel that what you said above really is the goal. Its not cuthroat or anything, no put downs or whatever. But thats who you're up against(if you do art professionally), so you have to better, or strive to be better. it doesnt mean you cant be friends or anything, but it is competition.

I do agree about the asspats though. If you go the Freelancers Forum at RPG.net there are alot more helpful critiques. its not cliquey at all, and people are generally more friendly and likely to help. And ive only seen one or two flame wars. And thats usually about people who post open calls paying in rat innards.


Mike

[leckronium]

I feel that what you said above really is the goal. Its not cuthroat or anything, no put downs or whatever. But thats who you're up against(if you do art professionally), so you have to better, or strive to be better. it doesnt mean you cant be friends or anything, but it is competition.


There are some people who enter COW with that goal and most of the time it's fellow professionals. The point I was trying to make was that there are also many talented non-professionals who enter and after one week or so they disappear. If you look at the polls every week you'll understand. Voting is so lopsided every week you can pretty much predict who's going to win before voting ever starts. This can be very discouraging for those who really try and these are the people that COW needs most.

COW needs participants if it wants to excel and become a better contest. If these talented non-professionals leave because of lack of progress or lack of recognition due to lopsided voting and favoritism then COW is doomed. Only the die-hard fans are going to stick around and I don't think there are that many to make it worthwhile. What I stated above was a suggestion to even the playing field out a little and to encourage more people to participate. Mainly because I would like to see COW grow into something better. It's the main reason I stay with this site. And yes, I agree that it is a competition but in no way do I see this as a professional contest. This is a community activity that should be enjoyed by everyone. :^^:

[bluefooted]

Hmmm, what makes me stick around and participate? I'd say the horrible, horrible guilt of winning. I'll try to explain that ridiculous statement:

I certainly can't say that the contest is biased towards professionals or 'an inner circle', since I won on my first try and am neither a professional nor part of any secret clubs... unless you count the nerd club :P But with great power comes great responsibility... or something like that. Basically what I'm trying to say is, for me at least, winning carries a certain responsibility. You've participated, done well, and been rewarded with fabulous praise and amazing prizes ;). So now you owe something back to the contest: to continue to participate, or at least, think about participating each week and feel crushing guilt when you don't come up with an entry. You are now a part of the C.OW. process - to just turn your back on it would be wrong. Plus it's fun to draw creatures :)

Sorry for this silly post, but those reasons (Guilt + Fun) are honestly why I'm sticking around. Jeez, can you tell I was raised Catholic or what? Anyway, I will continue to enjoy the C.O.W. once the break is over, which I don't mind since I'm going on vacation anyway :P

[coondoggle]

Discontinuing the COW for awhile will most likely hurt it, not help. A consistant enviornment is very important for a forum of this kind to keep people coming to it. Crowds may wane, but it will also pick up again. It's summer. People are going on vacation, but others are just getting off school. Keep it up for the summer kids!


Reguarding the poll:

I really wish the poll here had more depth.
Many weeklies I participate in let voters choose first, second, and third places per vote, plus honorable mentions.

It's true the COW shows the number of votes the pieces generated and a first, second, third placing can be seen in this, but it doesn't describe how close the decisions were.

For instance, many times I'm torn between several pieces. I think you'd find more votes occuring over a broader number of artists with a more in depth poll, which is good for community moral.

It is important to know a piece was well recieved even if it wasn't on top.

As has been mentioned, there is sort of a dismal feeling that only a couple of artists here are capable of recieving recognition in the polls. When you are voting for one winner alone there really isn't any other way for the polls to come off. With each COW voters see a race between two artists begining and are encouraged to vote for one or the other because you are only enabled to vote for one piece.

[Matt Dixon]

I think all the comments about the pattern of voting are valid, but there's one very important point about the poll that hasn't been raised; what I like to call the 'teeth and horns' effect.

What I mean is that votes tend to favour the cool looking creatures - those with 'teeth and horns' - regardless of how appropriate the concept behind them is to that week's topic. I don't mean any disrespect, but our latest winner is a perfect example - Genital Eclipse's Sewer Beast looks cool, but there's no apparent consideration whatsoever of the topic in the execution or the written description. Now, there may be hours of research and painstaking concept development behind his submission but it doesn't make any difference - the point is, we can't see it in the final. Thankfully, this effect isn't usually strong enough to produce an undeserving winner but it certainly unbalances the poll on occasion, and definitely snatches votes from more deserving entries.

This is something that we have the power to change without any exciting new systems. A cool image alone should not be justification for a vote.

[Matt Dixon]

Second post, so as not to confuse ideas. How's this as a way of implementing a simplified ranking system?

Votes are cast as normal. If the winner has not won a round before, things continue as usual - that person receives the COW icon and their star and we go on to the next round. If the winner already has COW star(s), they receive another as recognition for winning the poll, but the first runner up without stars wins the icon and a star as well.

In other words, someone NEW would receive the COW badge every week. Anyone winning regularly wouldn't be preventing badges being awarded to ( perhaps more deserving ) un-badged participants, though they would continue to gather stars if they come top in the poll.

Example - The poll closes with HumptyDumpty ( 1 COW star ) in 1st place, PulsatingVulva ( 4 COW star ) is 2nd, and Honest_John82 ( no stars ) in 3rd. Result: HumptyDumpty wins a second star for topping the poll, PulsatingVulva stays with 4 stars, and Honest_John82 wins his COW badge and first star.

It's not as sophisticated as some of the rankings ideas being talked about, but it'd mean much less maintenance, and I think it accomplishes roughly the same thing. The vote sponges can continue to collect stars if the polls go their way, but someone new can look forward to wearing their COW badge with pride each week. What do you think?

[0kelvin]

To add to that, we might want to limit it to third place or something. If the same people are competing every week, sooner or later so many people will have badges that the guy coming in 15th place is going to be getting a badge just for participating and it'll really take the prestige out of having the badge.

I think coondoggle's point about being able to choose 2nd and 3rd place entries is a good one, if it's not a lot of trouble to implement. Although a lot of people already post their second or third choices in the voting thread anyway. Sure they don't count toward the vote, but for me personally, even if i haven't gotten any votes that round, people posting to say they considered voting for me is just as good. But then it's not like I've ever had a real good shot at getting 1st place anyway.



0kelvin

[S.C. Watson]

I'm in favor of 1st through 3rd places, with a potential Honorable Mention. (Gold star for 1st, Silver for second, Bronze for 3rd, and blue for Honorable Mention).

In an effort to dampen the star sponges, perhaps we should not allow the same contestant to win the same star two weeks in a row? Hmmm.... that may not work.... :dur: But, the more I think about it, if we did the 1st through 3rd, with HM, perhaps that would slow things down for the same stars...

Also, furthering the color coding thing... perhaps we can do a red star for every five you get, then switch over to a green one for 10 stars (assuming anyone is around that long....). It would be easier than having a bajillion stars under their tags.

Just a thought :thinking:

~Shane

[Happy Camper]

If COW is going to take a break it should be during Thunderdome 9 in my opinion. If and when TD9 happens I'm sure you'll see a bigger drop off in COW entries. BTW does anybody know when it will happen? I was planing to enter the next COW becuase my creature designs really suck and I could use the practice but a break is fine with me. I was also hoping to become a regular so I think the new rewards idea is cool.

[Matt Dixon]

0kelvin - Good point, and you're right that giving out more COW badges would reduce their prestige a bit - I was thinking that the emphasis would shift more to the number of stars. Limiting it to first through third places would work. I like the idea of first and second places etc. but how would the votes be counted up? A poll each for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and HM? No poll, and just have Fozzy tally up our votes from a post? Sounds complicated to me.

Oregano - Different coloured stars sounds good but, again, I'd be worried about the logistics. I gather adding the COW badge and stars is an Admin's job, I don't know how much effort is involved in that, but you've potentially just multiplied the time they'd need to spend on the COW by four or five times. It'd be good to keep any changes on 'our side' - that is, within the influence of COW participants and Fozzy - so we're not relying on the Admins who might not always be available.

[Orcatraz]

I think the 1st 2nd and 3rd place system is best. Maybe It would work to have (1st = 1 vote), (2nd = 1/2 vote), and (3rd = 1/4 vote).

There is way too much complaining about unequal distribution of stars, I feel like C.o.W. has turned into a kindergarten class. If I ever get a star I would want it to be because my entry was the best, not because it was my turn or I don't have one yet or any other pity nonsense. As far as I'm concerned the same person should be able to win 100 times in a row. If people want to get a star they should just get better and keep trying.

Votes are cast as normal. If the winner has not won a round before, things continue as usual - that person receives the COW icon and their star and we go on to the next round. If the winner already has COW star(s), they receive another as recognition for winning the poll, but the first runner up without stars wins the icon and a star as well. In an effort to dampen the star sponges, perhaps we should not allow the same contestant to win the same star two weeks in a row? Hmmm.... that may not work.... But, the more I think about it, if we did the 1st through 3rd, with HM, perhaps that would slow things down for the same stars... No offense guys, but I think these ideas would make the whole star system completely meaningless.

I think the winners have been pretty deserving thus far.

[Fozzybar]

Hmmmmm....

1st, 2nd, 3rd voting idea:
This is the most complicated idea of all...because ponti had to change the code or whatever to make this possible.
There IS a option to make a poll with multiple choices, but you won't see who you voted 1st, 2nd or 3rd and there is no limit for multiple choices, basically you can vote for every entry :)

Matt's idea giving stars to the next one not having a star
Well, i never won a star yet and i would feel like not deserving a star when i come 3rd but win the star because the 1st and 2nd already have won. I want a star when i come first, and if i don't get 1st, it's not a big deal - it's fun to participate at COW, thinking of new concepts and creature designs every round, i don't care that much about a star under my title...just as custom titles or whatever...

Oreganos idea with different colors
1st,2nd,3rd,HM won't work, because of the reasons i wrote about above...
BUT the idea with different colors could work, but would be considered if we have one member winning 6 stars (this is the current limit), so we had to think of an upgrading...

Matt's post about "teeth and horns" effects
I see this issue also...there were much better concepts (actually there was none at Genital Eclipses ;)), but the thing is - a good drawing always weights more than a good concept.
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO: there could be a solution to choose a fair winner, when we make two polls - one for the artwork and one for the concept.
If we take the last example, Genital Eclipse would have won the artwork poll, but he wouldn't have even one vote for his concept, which means that GreenTopaz would have won the last round (after counting all votes - artwork and concept together)...

Issues:

- only 1 poll is allowed for each thread...making two polls with two threads is not reasonable, we would mess the sipmle structure we have at the moment

- multiple choices are unlimited which means that you could vote for every option

What do you think?

[Fozzybar]

Another idea not related to the post above:

There is an option to show which user voted for what option in the poll.

positive: no misuse (voting for his own entry), many participants ask who voted for their entries, this way they can see it

negative: it's not a ballot anymore - is this a problem at all?

[possessed]

I like both the dual voting (concept and art) as well as the option to see who voted for who ( in my futile rage I voted for myself once haha.. bleh :^^;: )

[Fozzybar]

Oh another side note, i think the pros are very important fo this activity. I rather watch an activity with many pro entries, where i actually have no chance to win than having an activity without pros at all, with chances to win.

For me it's more worth to see all the interesting concepts and artworks members come up with every round than winning a round without all this. And naturally the pros have the most interesting entries...

So, don't try to exclude the pros or something, it would lead to a lower quality level which would mean less attention/attraction and finally the death of COW...

leckronium, the ranking system is one way to incentivise the newbies and not-pros...it would look like the medal tables at the olympic games. 1 column for gold/1st place, 1 column for silver/2nd, 1 column for bronze/3rd. So you had the chance to get some tribute as 2nd or 3rd...


The table would be sorted after gold/1st places, then silver then bronze.

[Matt Dixon]

No offense guys, but I think these ideas would make the whole star system completely meaningless.

None taken. Actually, I agree wholeheartedly. The ideas in my posts above were just contributions to the whole league / rankings debate. If it were my decision alone, I'd leave the voting exactly how it is. I can't imagine a practical alternative without making the process horribly complicated and ultimately less democratic.

[S.C. Watson]

No offense guys, but I think these ideas would make the whole star system completely meaningless.

If ya go back and reread my post, you'll find that I dismissed the idea limiting consecutive wins almost immediately :bashful:

As for the 1st through 3rd with honorable mention. Allow me to elaborate some: No code would need be changed at all. We would be able to impliment this right now with no fuss, as follows (using C.O.W. #18 as an example):

FIRST PLACE (gold star award): Genital Eclipse with 44 votes
SECOND PLACE (silver star award): GreenTopaz with 36 votes
THIRD PLACE (bronze star award): shadoman with 22 votes
Honorable Mention (blue star award): leckronium with 14 votes

Simple, no?

Cheers,
~Shane

[Orcatraz]

Oregano:
I like your color idea. And I noticed you dismissed that other idea, I even quoted the part where you changed your mind. I just wanted to express my objection because it seems like some people would jump all over that idea (but if they can't handle competing with the pros in a friendly contest, how are they going to compete for jobs). I especially didn't want to offend any of my Orcas brethren. I don't want to be greeted with pitchforks and torches next time I go back.

[coondoggle]

The winner of the current week would be able to choose the creature topic for the next week.

[BrainBug]

The winner of the current week would be able to choose the creature topic for the next week.
they already do that, unless the winner chooses a topic that isn't suiting COW (i.e. Fozzybars :)) rules

on the colours (1,2,3,honourable): fozzybar said there is (for now) a max of 6 stars, so 4 different kinds of stars would be too much unless you would combine them from 2 stars (ie: 8honor = 4bronze = 2silver = 1gold)
and after gold you'ld need other images or colours...

personally i like the idea of a double vote better: i mean image and concept separated and this combined with a star upgrade for 5 stars
(also you could give stars for art, moons for concept, and an eclipse if an illustration wins both at once?)

[0kelvin]

As for the 1st through 3rd with honorable mention. Allow me to elaborate some: No code would need be changed at all. We would be able to impliment this right now with no fuss, as follows (using C.O.W. #18 as an example):

FIRST PLACE (gold star award): Genital Eclipse with 44 votes
SECOND PLACE (silver star award): GreenTopaz with 36 votes
THIRD PLACE (bronze star award): shadoman with 22 votes
Honorable Mention (blue star award): leckronium with 14 votes

Simple, no?

Cheers,
~Shane

I think the problem people were having was more about levelling the playing field between the pros and the less experienced artists. Giving out stars for second and third place doesn't really address the problem. In fact, it would probably just give those top few people a lot more stars.

A possible problem with the double vote (besides implementing it) would be that entries that only did one thing really well (great art but no concept or great concept but crap art) would have a better chance than entries that did both pretty good and tied them together really well.

I think the system we've got is great. A straight up and simple democracy. Unfortunately, like any democracy, the voters can screw things up and the system can be exploited. Most of the people just vote for the coolest looking entry, probably without even reading the concept. I don't see any way to change that, though.

Maybe we could have somebody (possibly Fozzy or the Mighty Crit Cow) choose an Outstanding Concept of the Week every week. The decision would be based just on the concept of the picture and not the art itself. They don't need to get a star or anything for it, it would just recognize a person who came up with a really original concept or design that week.



0kelvin

[S.C. Watson]

Orcatraz No worries. We greet everyone off the ferry with pitchforks >:D Haha - you actually missed a great parade today. Total conservative vs. liberal show down. It was fun.

As for the rest, I'm just sort of thinking out loud... :dad:

Mr. Zerokelvin K. Gotcha. Didn't realize that we had a six star limit. I did have fears that some people (matt dixon) would have stars all the way across the screen. Perhaps since the stars are graphics, we could incorporate multiple stars into one graphic?

That is, of course, assuming the whole idea of technicolor stars is accepted by our Fozzy leader, and everyone else.

To be honest, I'm only really half for it, and wouldn't be offended a bit if the whole thing fell by the way side.

As for leveling the playing field... I don't know that that is necessary. I *do* think that the *concept* aspect of the C.O.W. needs to be addressed as long as the artist is responsible for that. However, I have reservations about leaving that to the artist and have since the onset.

I think I voiced in the ideas thread that I think we would be better off if we started the C.O.W. with a solid concept (as opposed to just a name) for the creature and we all worked that up. This doesn't mean we necessarily have a physiological description, but perhaps some basic traits included such as "predator" or "herbavore" or "avian" or even "reptillian/mammillian mix", things like that - just some indicators to help build a general idea of what we're dealing with. From there, what I'd like to see is the judging based on which critter best fits, with elaboration from the artist, the description.

But I'm open. I'll just be glad when that bum bovine comes back from the Bahamas 8)

Cheers,
~Oreg.

[Orcatraz]

I think the problem people were having was more about levelling the playing field between the pros and the less experienced artists. Giving out stars for second and third place doesn't really address the problem. In fact, it would probably just give those top few people a lot more stars.
Why should the less experienced artists expect stars? Why do they need to be catered to in any way? They should feel privileged to work amongst the pros so they can learn from them.

The people who win the most are not winning because the word "professional" appears under their name, they win because they are talented. You guys are going to scare away the pros if you keep acting victimized by their advantage. I'm sure some of them are feeling guilty now and might not enter because they want to give others a chance, that's bullshit! If the pros leave I guarantee people's interest in C.o.W. will leave too.

There is only one way to level the playing field, everyone needs to try hard to catch up. The goal of everyone here should be to make and see the best art possible. Leveling the playing field will only sabotage that goal. Who cares about a star anyway.

[0kelvin]

Agreed. I don't have that problem but some people have expressed they do. I imagine it can get frustrating submitting every week and not even being acknowledged in the voting thread. Really, I think the biggest draw the COW has is people like the Mighty Crit Cow that give out c&c to everyone, not just their top two or three choices. If we can be more diligent in handing out quality crits to all the contestants, I think that will keep the quality and interest of the COW up far more than any fancy voting system.



0kelvin

[Orcatraz]

http://www.moranconcepts.com/images/cow6.gif

Yeah, I don't want to be too dismissive of peoples feelings so if anyone wants a detailed crit and explanation why I didn't vote for them on any past C.o.W. just PM me and I'll hook you up.

[S.C. Watson]

There is only one way to level the playing field, everyone needs to try hard to catch up. The goal of everyone here should be to make and see the best art possible. Leveling the playing field will only sabotage that goal. Who cares about a star anyway.

Right. Raise the bar. Don't lower it.

~O

[Fozzybar]

okokokokokokokokokok...ooooookaaaaaaaaaay.....

So, what is the conclusion?

1. we want the pros! not only as participants, maybe even more for c&c
2. we need a better c&c behaviour at the poll-thread (like in the first rounds), after all it seems that members are more interested in these than in stars or whatever
3. we should keep everything simple and open

I think C.O.W. was so popular because it combined 2 strong sides of conceptart.org:

The thunderdome on the one hand and the strong community understanding on the other hand.

So we have something like a competition but the participants appreciate the helping out and attention of other members more than winning points, which flavours the whole cooperation...


2 questions are still open:

#1 Is it a good idea to show the names of the voters (Mike had some good points)?

#2 Do we need the ranking idea (something like a medals table)?

I say yes for #1 and no for #2...

[deschamps]

#2: part of that same issue in #1 is that your allowd to check the voting results before voting which is an issue. This allows people to check who are the top votes and thus, seeing if there is a close running at that moment, the member may sway thier vote toward a friend who is behind by a few votes, rather than voting for the one that deserves it.



This a good point. The voting tallies shouldn't be revealed until voting is over, so it doesn't affect people's vote. Another example of this is: Someone's first intent is to vote for Joe Blow's piece... then they notice it doesn't have a chance to win after looking at the tally, so they decide to vote for a frontrunner instead.

[Orcatraz]

I say yes for #1 and no for #2... I agree with you on that Fozzy. I also agree with Mike and deschamps that it should be secret until the poll is closed.

[Flip]

I agree with Fozzy as well. With the keeping the poll secret I think it's a good idea, although I'm not sure how necessary it is. One of the things about these forums and similar ones is that you don't tend to get the level of abuse, ca.org tends to be very positive and open. I feel that more than anything this has brought to the surface how people shouldn't be acting; that users should make sure they vote for the best concept art, and that they don't vote based upon who they want to win. It seems to me that this discussion has really defined the etiquette associated with COW. Is it really necessary to put into place systems to enforce that, or can a list of guidelines be posted with every poll and the users then trusted to follow them? I don't think I've ever posted critiques for COW but now I think I'd make the effort, knowing that this is really why people are entering. That's enough of my rambling, how does everyone else feel?
EDIT: Maybe try to move the focus from who's the winner, to a place for critiques. Or is it then turning into a WSG?

[Matt Dixon]

Yes on #1, and no to #2.

[Fozzybar]

MIKECORRIERO - that guy who is stealing ideas from other people? :P

Well, i pm'ed Jason and Ponte about the "not being able to see the votes before voting yourself".

Jason agreed and now i am waiting for Ponte to check his pm's, strange, usually he answers within seconds :)

[Fozzybar]

no, not at all, i was just teasing you...i need bigger smilies :)

MIKECORRIERO HAS GOOD IDEAS!

[leckronium]

2 questions are still open:

#1 Is it a good idea to show the names of the voters (Mike had some good points)?

#2 Do we need the ranking idea (something like a medals table)?

...

#1 Yes. I think this would help make a positive impact on the voting practices that are currently taking place. This might even bring more critiques because people would feel the need to explain themselves on why they chose the person they voted for. I think we may not even need this if we hide the voting polls until the person casts their vote. Although it would be just as easy to look at it while viewing as a guest. So maybe hide it to everyone and show it only to those members who have voted. Then show it to everyone after it has closed. If we do that then Fozzy will have to PM the soon to be winner if we continue to have the winner choose the topic for the following week.

#2 I already stated my ideas for ranks so I won't repeat myself. I think sticking with #1 for now will be interesting to see if it has an effect on the contest or not. I say once the changes are made we do a test COW :wink:

[Red_Rook]

certainly yes to #1, but as far as number two goes, honestly i wouldnt have some huge complicated diffrent ranking system, but simple ranks, even if its jes the single one we had before i think is an important part of it because honestly despite what people are saying "omg its jes a star" there more shallow then that. Hell its a point of pride if you can carry a star and i guarantee everyone, that has one is happy with it. Because other users go uh oh look he won a cow, i wanna win one to! Not only does it give users somthing to strive after but it also, exstends the infleunce of the cow outside the boarders of its lil sub forum and maybe generate further interest and awareness to other users. Maybe im way off though :x

[leckronium]

I think we may not even need this if we hide the voting polls until the person casts their vote. Although it would be just as easy to look at it while viewing as a guest. So maybe hide it to everyone and show it only to those members who have voted. Then show it to everyone after it has closed.

Would it be better to hide the poll results from everybody and only let members who voted see it or would it be better to just hide the poll results from everybody and have the results surprise everyone in the end?

I'm starting to think it might be better to just hide the whole thing until the end. I wouldn't mind the suspense although it could kill me. :dead:

[Fozzybar]

Well, the thing is, if they change something in the code it will be changed for the whole forum. So for COW it could be good to hide the poll until the end, but what about the polls in the lounge about fav games, movies etc...

[BrainBug]

Well, the thing is, if they change something in the code it will be changed for the whole forum. So for COW it could be good to hide the poll until the end, but what about the polls in the lounge about fav games, movies etc...

isn't there a way to just add an extra poll style?

[Fozzybar]

i think there is, but i don't know anything about programming and Ponte is the one who is responsible for that, so i am just forwarding your requests to him as i did with this thread, maybe he'll have a look soon...

[venomai]

If it was a little more newbie-friendly, I'm sure it would be a lot more active. :D

I'm not sure how exactly this could be achieved.. but for sure the voting is a huge problem. A big "0" is kinda discouraging, especially if a lot of the replies in the voting are only giving crits and advice to who they voted for (which is rarely a newb's work..).
It would be nice if newbies could use it as a weekly way to try and practice their more detailed and larger pieces, as opposed to their quicker work like in the DSG.

Unless its intentional that very few newbs join this, in which case.. ignore this comment :bashful:


But once its back up, I hope to join in, even though I'm a big newb. :^^:
And I'm sure it will benefit from a small break :blahblah:

[BrainBug]

I'm not sure how exactly this could be achieved.. but for sure the voting is a huge problem. A big "0" is kinda discouraging, especially if a lot of the replies in the voting are only giving crits and advice to who they voted for (which is rarely a newb's work..).
It would be nice if newbies could use it as a weekly way to try and practice their more detailed and larger pieces, as opposed to their quicker work like in the DSG.

well then: the winner of week A doesn't get his star untill (s)he comments on all works of week B :)
after all (s)he chose the topic for that week topic (or (s)he was supposed to anyway)

and in that post (s)he also has to vote for a "best concept", without counting the artistic quality of the image (dunno who suggested that, although previously suggested this "concept winner" would be voted upon by Fozzy and/or the CritiCOW)


---> found it:
Maybe we could have somebody (possibly Fozzy or the Mighty Crit Cow) choose an Outstanding Concept of the Week every week. The decision would be based just on the concept of the picture and not the art itself. They don't need to get a star or anything for it, it would just recognize a person who came up with a really original concept or design that week.

[Genital Eclipse]

I think that the winners of the last rounds wouldn't have won if the participation were like the rounds before. That's not fair and also not good for the activity...



Fozzy, good thing I won while I got the chance!

Praise the lord for minimal participation! I can now officially retire from doing art.

CoW is about improving hand skills and conceptual thinking, not winning a silly poll. Take it away if it's just going to make people stop participating. Simple as that.

[Fozzybar]

calm down...it's a fact, that the winner needs more quality or effort to win, not only at COW...if you're running a race against 100 people you'll need to run faster than against 3...

Nothing personal here... :S

[BrainBug]

calm down...it's a fact, that the winner needs more quality or effort to win, not only at COW...if you're running a race against 100 people you'll need to run faster than against 3...

Nothing personal here... :S

except if it's the top 3 ;)

[Smarty]

Ok, This summer break has been on quite a while now, judging from when the thread started so any idea when your gona start up again. I havnt entered any yet, im new here and i wanna Enter!

[Ostrander]

I think there are a lot of interesting ideas floating around here while the ol' COW is on break. (Oh, how I pine for your udder goodness) I'm looking forward to seeing what happens when all is said and done. I wouldn't mind not knowing who's winning until the end, I like surprises. Who doesn't?

The only problem I've ever really had with the COW is this, it's kinda disheartening seeing someone win by a vote of popularity as opposed to the actual work (concept/art). I've seen this many times. It's hard to compete against someone who is well known throughout these boards. I don't post my art all the time, or comment on everything I see, but does that make my work inferior to someone who does and who is known by everyone here? I mean lets just say I had a super great piece in the COW and it was up against (insert known ConceptArt Guy Here) and their so-so-piece-for-a-known-ConceptArtGuy-who-deep-down-everyone-knows-could-have-done-better, where would you place your vote? To a lesser known guy or someone who is well known, well loved and well admired on the boards? Honestly? Hmmm...

As a side gripe I'd like to bring up what I like to call "the bluefooted/Duddlebug incedent" (sorry blue,duddy) here you have two wonderful pieces, very well done, both exceptional, brimming with detail... but it's a dragon and a pig. And they won because?? Anyone? I love dragons (not pigs so much, sorry duddy) just as much as the next guy but where is the concept? Where is the originality? Are we allowed to rehash whats already been done or are we striving for something new here? And it's not that I don't like the pictures, I love 'em, I don't have a problem with bluefooted or duddlebug's work at all. But were these deserving of the votes? I guess the only problem I have really is the thought process of the community in their votecasting abilities. Weren't there supposed to be rules about originality? Fozzy got rid of someones triceratops, but let a dragon and a pig go through to the polls? How can this be? Was it based on the persons drawing ability? But why one and not the other? Maybe we need a stronger, more enforced set of rules, or a checklist or criterea a topic needs to have before it reaches the polls? I don't know. I'm well aware that originality is difficult to come by, so there is some flexibility here, but come on now, how many of you saw bluefooted's or Duddlbugs and said to yourself, it's nice but... it's a dragon...or...it's a pig? I'm sure this is all completely debateable, like most everything, what does everyone else think?

So...ultimately in the end what can be done to make the COW better? I don't know if ranking systems will do it or little colored stars and charms or what have you. I think the mindset of the community for one, and the way people cast their votes would be a start. I'm sure there are many who vote that don't even take the time to read the concept, and go straight to the best looking image or their favorite artist. I don't know how to change this, aside from having a panel of judges do the voting every week and not leave it up to us.
After saying all that I've had to say, I do know this, I've probably set myself up to never win a COW, especially if the majority of the vote is based on popularity. :bashful:

Now that I've proceeded to douse myself with some premium grade gasoline (or petro, depending on which side of the pond you're on). You provide the matches...flame away...

[Fozzybar]

You are absolutely right Gloklund, but no one can change the communities behaviour :(

But honestly, if someone has a really banging concept and art he will win, no matter if he is known or not and actually bluefooted was not active at the forum before, but won with her first entry!!! And yes, it was just a dragon :)

[Smarty]

Fozzy, any idea when its gona get started again then? I dont think i can really comment on the organisaiton quality or suggestions because i didnt know what it used to be like.

[bluefooted]

Okay, now I'm officially depressed (not really, but I'm making a point here). I think it's kind of unfair of you (Gloklund) to single out the two entries that you did. I know what you're trying to say: that, recently, the competition's gotten less stringent at least in terms of originality of the winning entries. I could make the same argument that past winners were equally 'unoriginal': the digger creature is really a naked mole rat with extra legs (just like duddlebug's extra legged pig), the evolutionary dead end is a bull, the siren is basically a harpy, the nocturnal predator is a bat with horns, the mascot is a cow, the hill stomper is giant, etc. Whatever. At the same time, I could make the argument that just drawing an organic-looking, Gieger-esque thing performing the assigned function does not necessarily, a good creature, make. I'm sorry that mine's "just a dragon". Feel free to strike it from the record.

Anyway, I'm not going to throw flames on you or anything, no offense taken really. And now I'm going to be made fun of for mispelling Gieger, probably. I'm too lazy to look it up.
Cheers!

[possessed]

I think fozzy should be a little less strict about what qualifies to be taken to the poll(concept wise, technique-wise, you're doing a great job). I had an entry not taken to the poll since it looked too similar like an angler fish but Ive seen plenty of other creature-inspired by real animals get taken to the poll. In short, we humans, can't draw beyond what we see and know off. We take our earthly anatomy and forms and stretch and reform that. Sure, one creature may look more 'alien' then the next but it's all so relative. I think C.O.W could go without the whole 'must be alien/ out of this world' box and be taken to a more broadlevel, on in which strange triceratops creatures and whatever are okay.

[Ostrander]

bluefooted- In no way was I trying to attack you or your work, or single you out among others, and I'm not saying you didnt put any thought into your entry, all I'm trying to say is that is it fair for someone to come up with something original, or semi-original and see it get defeated in the polls by something that wasn't really a stretch for something different, or fresh? And I'm not even referreing to mine, like Matt said, mine could have been any orc/troll/goblin. I'm not saying I want to try and figure out this weeks Giger-esque-blob-of-the-week either. I don't think anyone wants to sit here and look at the images and try for the life of them to figure out what a creature is, our attention spans aren't long enough. I'm just frustrated with the communities voting habits is all. But like Fozzy recently said you can't change the communities behavior so I guess it's left at that. I'm sure there are other people that feel the same way about this, and I feel like I'm going out on a limb here alone and bringing it up, but it's not meant as a personal attack, so please try not to take offense.

[Fozzybar]

Fozzy, any idea when its gona get started again then? I dont think i can really comment on the organisaiton quality or suggestions because i didnt know what it used to be like.

Currently first week of August is planned, but don't nail me down to it! >:D

[Genital Eclipse]

calm down...it's a fact, that the winner needs more quality or effort to win, not only at COW...if you're running a race against 100 people you'll need to run faster than against 3...

Nothing personal here... :S

This is great Fozzy and I agree.

Yet, it applies to every week that cow has happened. No need to say silly things about one week over the other because what you prefered didn't win. Jesus or Burt Reynolds could have participated any of those weeks and swept the floor with an ungodly magical chest-hair-filled painting. However, I just happened to post when they didn't participate and now I get punished for it?

I actually 'feel' bad for posting mine now, which I didn't even want to do in the first place. I can't help there were minimal participants, nor did I think I would ever win. I had fun making my piece which was 'my' idea of a sewer beast and I painted it while not wearing pants.

Just take the stupid voting out and let people post their efforts to inspire us to work harder. What's the point of it anyway if there's always an imaginary entry better than what was actually created?

[xia]

HEY! All you COWBIES competitors!!!

While there is no COW at the moment!
If you got BALLz
Here is something to do ...hope to see some participants from here.
We all got score to settle.

The Last Man Standing (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?p=526891#post526891)

Come on in, and we'll take you out!

[Main Loop]

how come this thread gets more votes than the actual contest?

and why are we on break since we voted overwhelmingly against it?

[venomai]

CoW is about improving hand skills and conceptual thinking, not winning a silly poll. Take it away if it's just going to make people stop participating. Simple as that.
I agree, plus, if CoW did this it would really ease the tension from week to week, and more beginners would join in (and those beginners would begin to improve from all the critiques and advice they'll receive, since everyone will become used to the beginners posting in the CoW threads) and in turn we'd have a lot more participants. Not to mention, we'd still have the faithful professionals who'd return weekly to practice their hand skills & conceptual thinking, as Genital Eclipse said.

The art posted may not be the quality most of you were hoping for, but if you want more people, this is one way to do it. :bashful:



And if the whole point behind CoW is for a strict artistic challenge between the best and brightest... I can't see a huge flood of professionals bounding on the opportunity anytime soon. Although there are many who enjoy painting for fun and practice, there are still a lot who would prefer better reasons for trying so hard. :(



Then again, changing all the suggestions mentioned in this thread would dramatically change how CoW works, and I'm not sure if it would be more or less beneficial. :\

[Fozzybar]

Now, it may sound hard, but the initial idea of COW was to start a regular activity on a high quality level. We have the DSG where everyone can post whatever he likes to and really, there are mostly only about 20% of the pics which are entertaining...

So, primarily COW is NOT for the beginners or the ones who think a 10 minute sketch is worth posting it on a weekly activity...

This is also the reason why i like to take images of bluefooted, Matt Dixon, MIKECORRIERO or any other artist, whose skills are great and their artwork always a pleasure to look at. Yes, even if their concept is boring or their creature leaned on an existing one. Because i want this activity filled with much quality work as possible.

That's why i sometimes reject entries of beginners though some of the skilled members have the same lack of originality...

I know many people will be disappointed or angry about what i am saying, but have in mind that the pros artwork always transport more than the idea, and read FIRST why i am saying this:

As I saw Matt's Hill Stomper for example i loved it and had fun to look at it.

Why? Not because it's "only" a well drawn giant (yes and it was human also), there is much more behind, which makes a real pro or dedicative artist:

- many lovely details, which show a story behind the char (you can see his nature), the peaceful village/houses are just eyecandy
- the emotion of the char, you can see the fun and pleasure he has stomping the hills
- the atmosphere of the pic
- dynamic, action
- composition, colors, values etc

There is sooo much which makes this kind of art different to the entries of beginners, which does NOT mean that i don't want beginners enter COW, but it's not enough to post a sketchy drawing of a creature which already exists, because there are none of the points i mentioned above...which are the results of hard work and effort and not a bonus they got from the admins...

So, this said, COW is open for everyone, but a good artwork posted by a pro - no matter if it has a weak concept - is always good for taking to the poll.

That's why i took Genital Eclipse's piece to the poll for the last round, though there was actually no concept, but the piece had great atmosphere and your imagination could go wild when looking at it.

bluefooted's dragon didn't have a big originality in its design, but there was this wonderful magically atmosphere on her artwork, which matched perfectly to her concept.

This guys and gals provide more than just nicely drawn lines...

And don't tell me that i am frustrating newbies or beginners...there are only about 2-4 entries of 20-30 each round i reject...

And finally:
how come this thread gets more votes than the actual contest?...because this poll is up for weeks now, COW polls are only one week...:rolleyes: :yawn:



and why are we on break since we voted overwhelmingly against it?...i posted the poll AFTER the break to see what the members thoughts are about, not to change my decision, because i saw a need for a break...

[Fozzybar]

This is great Fozzy and I agree.

Yet, it applies to every week that cow has happened. No need to say silly things about one week over the other because what you prefered didn't win. Jesus or Burt Reynolds could have participated any of those weeks and swept the floor with an ungodly magical chest-hair-filled painting. However, I just happened to post when they didn't participate and now I get punished for it?

I actually 'feel' bad for posting mine now, which I didn't even want to do in the first place. I can't help there were minimal participants, nor did I think I would ever win. I had fun making my piece which was 'my' idea of a sewer beast and I painted it while not wearing pants.

Just take the stupid voting out and let people post their efforts to inspire us to work harder. What's the point of it anyway if there's always an imaginary entry better than what was actually created?


Arrrgghhh..Genital, what's the problem with you i don't get it...

The break has nothing to do with you or your art...i stated that the last 4 rounds had 14,14,18,10 entries compared to an average entries of 20-30 before...so it was just a trend which showed that COW needs a break and maybe some new ideas...

I love you...you, your genital and your eclipse...ok? :dead: ;)

[Main Loop]

...i posted the poll AFTER the break to see what the members thoughts are about, not to change my decision, because i saw a need for a break...

ahh ok that clears it up for me

[venomai]

So, primarily COW is NOT for the beginners or the ones who think a 10 minute sketch is worth posting it on a weekly activity...
Well, in that case, I was mistaken as for the point of CoW. :bashful: I guess that clears my case up, though!

[bRyaN]

THere is way to much discussion over something that is supposed to be inspirational..

Why is everyone so hung up on "winning"? What do you get?

And if the poll is gonna stay why bitch about not being popular...become known through your work...if you feel it's a popularity contest become popular...post more work, update your porfolio, do Finished Works, post critiques...put yourself out there...MARKET YOURSELF!!

I haven't particularly seen one winner that didn't deserve it...everytime a poll comes to a close it's the person with an overall solid piece who's the winner...

[strych9ine]

My vote goes to bRyaN this round. I felt his entry was beautifully executed, and it also had a great concept motivating it as well. I love the color palette you chose, it sets the mood perfectly.

[croovman]

I want CoW :'-(

[strych9ine]

croovman, I don't think we'll be able to take that post to the poll. While it had good intentions, it just doesn't seem like you spent much time refining your piece.

[Fozzybar]

i think it's looking to human-like...

But then again the current td is keeping us all busy, so no one will complain if we start a little bit later with the relaunch... :blahblah:

Oh, and strych9ine, you should stay away from the td a little bit...you got confused lately with all the organizing shit i think. :bashful:

[Pavel Sokov]

NEGATIVE, serious negative, im gonna kill u!!

i was waiting fot school to end, so i could participate in all yhse things, and now u do this. great job man

[Fozzybar]

i don't know what you are all talking about school and waiting to finish blabla...the time i had most free time in my life was when i went to school and university...i wish i were at school/university, so i had the whole day to draw or doing whatever i like to... :nohope: :rolleyes:

And btw...move your eyes about 15-20 inches to the side (depending on your screen)...wow - what's THAT??? Yes, that's this strange thing called REALITY....yes it's there...touch it...taste it...ok, it's not upon pixels but it's still cool as well...

..oh - be careful out there - there is no undo shortcut... >:D

[strych9ine]

Hahaha, Fozz I love you in a completely homosexual way.

[leckronium]

I was going to comment on how dead this area seemed to be but from the last comment it seems that the action will be picking up .... :jawdrop:

Let me know when COW returns. I'll leave you two alone... :tihi:

Just make sure you clean up any mess before everyone returns. :nohope:


/shuts thread door quickly
/runs back to Thunderdome Challenge Arena

[Fozzybar]

Hahaha, Fozz I love you in a completely homosexual way.

phew....for a moment i was scared you meant....errr....wait...homowhat...oh....i AM scared!

[OxCreative]

Hey foz, just wondering when COW is coming back? :yayca:

[Fozzybar]

well, as i said the first week of august was planned, but i think it will start after the td's first round, which is 6th August...

[Pixeldragoon]

Anudder thunderdome? :D Huzzah! Also, When you said COW, I didnt think that included the IDM's. They stopped too apparently. No number 4 yet =(

[flatliner]

i don't know what you are all talking about school and waiting to finish blabla...the time i had most free time in my life was when i went to school and university...i wish i were at school/university, so i had the whole day to draw or doing whatever i like to... :nohope: :rolleyes:

And btw...move your eyes about 15-20 inches to the side (depending on your screen)...wow - what's THAT??? Yes, that's this strange thing called REALITY....yes it's there...touch it...taste it...ok, it's not upon pixels but it's still cool as well...



I think its more along lines of people who were in school did'nt have enough time to design a creature that could compete with the likes of the professionals. So instead of entering a half finished peice of crap, they were waiting to the summer so that they could do a really decent job. Now the summers come, you've stopped it and I can imagine those that have been waiting to have a go at COW are understandbly annoyed. Its not that they were waiting to the summer so that they could sit infront of their computers and gawk at the screen all day.

Having said that, I can see why you have decided to take the break and I can appreciate that. just thought I would open my big mouth :blahblah:.

[S.C. Watson]

k. Since the C.O.W. is on break, it finally occured to me what's missing from this thread:

<snot nosed kid in back seat>
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
ARE WE THERE YET?
</snot nosed kid>

:P

[Pixeldragoon]

<snot>

I LIKE DONUTS
</snot>

want it to comeback!!!

[Sunny]

i really need to find info on thunderdome . i missed the past 2 and really want to participate

[S.C. Watson]

It's the first week of August, and everything after...



wait....




Um, anyway, yeah. It's like August 3rd. We've got Three More Days.





And I *really* need to lay off of the coffee.



Damn. Cups empty. brb.

[Fozzybar]

ok, folks, i am kinda busy right now...we will have a delay of a few days...sorry! :bashful:

[arteric]

I think I might be coming back... haven't "COW"ed in a long time... but I am dying to try out my new drawing tablet and painter. Hopefully I can get a notice when COW starts up again.... is someone going to post the start up in here once it begins? Just curious.

Eric

[Xpose]

Guys I need my fix! I'm sweating so bad... I feel anxious all the time, not to mention I've got the shits.... If I don't get it soon it's goingto be bad! GIVE ME MY COW! *gets on knees and cries*

[leckronium]

arteric - You've been saying you were going to come back for months now and try out that new tablet and painter. What's it going to take to actually get you back here? A triple dog dare?, ok I triple dog dare you to come back to COW when it starts back up! :x ;)

[Fozzybar]

i will post it in this thread when we restart again...just wait, i have so much shit aorund me to do right now...i think somewhere around next week we will start...

[croovman]

oh joy

[arteric]

Oh... OK, leckronium.... I see, so that's how it's gonna be huh? Triple dog dare? Oh it is ON! It is SO ON! I'm.... I'm gonna.... oooooooo, I am just gonna, man....... you wait and see....... you just wait! It's gonna be..... I'm gonna just..... like......

Well, you get the idea. Fine. Back I shall be then. Post the first COW Fozzy, and I shall return with guns blazing and tablet smoking! And to tide you over... here is an example of the phenominal art I can now generate with this amazing piece of equipment.

http://tinypic.com/aaeo8h

(Of course this is all in jest, no harm is meant to come to leckronium, Fozzy, Matt Dixon, or any other member of conceptart.org. No part of this post may be copied or redistributed without the expressed written consent of Major League Baseball. Art is performed by a trained driver on a closed course. People taking large doses of arteric should not operate heavy machinery. arteric has been know to cause cramps, bleeding, warts, anal leakage and spontaneous decapitation. In test subjects such side effects were usually mild.... except in a few cases where they begged to be killed and put out of their misery.)

Love and Kisses

-Me

[Liquidspider]

hey arteric... you always draw your wang when you draw urself? :P

[leckronium]

HAHAHAHA.....Wow, I've never been artistically decapitated before. That's awesome. Can I have a signed print...hunh..can I?, please, please... :tihi:

If your stick figures are equipped with wangs mine must have fallen off in the decapitation process. I don't see anything warning me about that in fine print. Does that mean I can sue? :needle: ;) :tihi:

[leckronium]

Actually, that could be it laying next to the puddle of red and at the bottom of my neck shards.

[arteric]

You don't know how close I came to drawing another arrow and writing "Weener" on it pointing at the area you mentioned when I first drew this. I decided not to in the end.... too many arrows and words. "Keep it simple" is the best motto.

But I am very impressed you noticed, there are lot of artists with good anatomical skills out there.

By the way.... that drawing is NOT TO SCALE.

Eric

[AngryScientist]

Yeah, Fozzy, why you getting our hopes up in the lounge?

[Fozzybar]

it's the countdown my dear opponent :)

get your pencils and tablets ready... >:D

[OLSEN]

I figured it was a countdown, but 7 what? Seconds, hours, days, years??

7 BILLIONS OF YEARS???

[Fozzybar]

hehe, i know, that's the annoying thing... :teeth: :nerd:

[S.C. Watson]

It's probably *months*. No hope until (counts on fingures, borrows some toes, breaks out the calculator and slide rule, confirms stellar locations and confers with prophets....) March sometime. And then the count downs starts again.... >:|

[BrainBug]

It's probably *months*. No hope until (counts on fingures, borrows some toes, breaks out the calculator and slide rule, confirms stellar locations and confers with prophets....) March sometime. And then the count downs starts again.... >:|

and by the time it's july he announces another summer break :)

[thirdeye]

Maybe it's dog time - like one human year is seven dog years :P :x

[possessed]

let's gooooooooooo!

[Fozzybar]

ok, we go:

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=50323

;)

[OLSEN]

And now it's time for: C.O.W.- Autumn Break!!! :teeth:

[Pavel Sokov]

i don't know what you are all talking about school and waiting to finish blabla...the time i had most free time in my life was when i went to school and university...i wish i were at school/university, so i had the whole day to draw or doing whatever i like to... :nohope: :rolleyes:

And btw...move your eyes about 15-20 inches to the side (depending on your screen)...wow - what's THAT??? Yes, that's this strange thing called REALITY....yes it's there...touch it...taste it...ok, it's not upon pixels but it's still cool as well...

..oh - be careful out there - there is no undo shortcut... >:D

oh wow here we go, the completely retarded idiotic assumption that a person that posts on a forum has no life, and friends.
but of corse. it lost its coolnes after iv seen millions of ppl acussing each other of not being out.
but u were right in one thing, in summer im too busy doing things, and i draw less.