Age-level-skill

[blog]

I was just wondering that a lot of tthe excellent artists are all quite old, like in their late 20's or early 30's. How come? Does this have something to do with their skill? I guess I admire artists like wes9000 and lungbug more just because of the skill they have attained at such an early age. How come there aren't enough of such young artists as those guys yet that are so talented?

What is your opinion?

[ArtbyWard]

Well some guys find out that they want to draw when they're like 40, and some when they're 5. And some people are just naturally talented, with others it takes some time. And Lung_Bug, I believe he drew like 12 hours a day on his peak so a lot of hard work also helps to get there sooner. Not everyone at that age has so much discipline.

But hey there are as many drawing paths as there are people.

[Marie]

...are all quite old, like in their late 20's or early 30's...

:x

everyone is unique, including the rate at wich they mature, learn, rate at wich they gain wisdom. Unique in their drive, will, desire to move ahead, absorb new things. Everyone's different.

I'm not too keen on this whole linear way of viewing things, especially the part about being elderly in my mid thirties :wink:

[NoSeRider]

Syd Mead still kicks your butt, and he's in his 70's.

Keep in mind we don't have all the same experiences. I had to wait a little longer to learn to draw because the public school system screwed me up.
Public grade school system and your peers usually don't encourage art.

Frank Frazetta didn't start painting till he was 30.

[fukifino]

Frank Frazetta didn't start painting till he was 30.

Yeah, but he was drawing comics professionally in his teens.

And I resent being called old. :P

[luxun]

i think its weird its almost always young people that starts these age vs talent bla bla threads. in my oppinion age doesnt matter, its skill. of course its impressing if a young person does good art but his age doesnt make the better than if it was an older person.

[Elwell]

...quite old, like in their late 20's or early 30's.
That's "quite old?"


Shoot me. Shoot me now. :grandpa:

[Bowlin]

...quite old, like in their late 20's or early 30's.

Save a bullet for me too :(

[Drunken Monkey]

does it really matter?

yeah Mead is a good example... did you see his work from ACCD? Not that hot. But look at what he started doing when he was approaching 40, i believe that when he got into enterntainment.

Mullins also nobody heard of him until he was 30 or so.

I think many guys are just busy experiencing life, rather than turning into art-nerds. I mean, its your 20's... do you really want to spend it drawing 12 hours a day!? There are too many things to do. Too many beautiful girls, and friends who are free to have fun. Don't turn into art-nerd.

[HugeHarHar]

Take note that he's 14.

Old is a compartive way of thinking.

To him "quite old" is late 20's to mid 30's.

To the 4 year old behind him, he's quite old.

Personally, I don't think we hit old at a certian age, I think its more of a point in your life where you just don't work anymore. I know some kids in their 80's who are in better shape then I am. Heh, let him get through high school, I think then he'll figure out the whole age thing.

But I agree that age doesn't decide your skill.

[darth massacre]

I was just wondering that a lot of tthe excellent artists are all quite old, like in their late 20's or early 30's.
Hey!! Who are you calling old?!



Opinion?

I call it the 10 year rule. That is, if you do something with passion and hard work, and if you have SOME aptitude for it....only after about 10 years (varies from person to person, most don't need a full 10 years) you'll see enlightenment.

[GriNGo]

yeah, doest matter in which age you BEGIN.. it's the consistency and energy you give to the work that will make it kick ass... although if you start early, then much better! (you have more years in your life to draw then the others :P )

later,
GRiNGoLoCo

[Ilaekae]

Let me see if I have this right...

Really old is 20-30.

I'm going to be 60 in January.

Therefore I must be dead. Maybe I don't even exist. Or matter. If so, then it must be true of everyone like me...

Funny thing is...I don't feel dead. So...there must be something that's affecting my perception of my own worth...


Could it be...(?)

I was selling art and winning awards for creating art over 20 years before the geniuses I mentioned above were born, and that gives me at least some validity in calling myself a professional?

I know how to do everything these "20-30-year-old geniuses" will ever come up with...without the use of a computer and specialized technology to make life an easy coast to never-never land?

I have used materials and processes you have never even heard of, let alone used?

I understand, because of my background, why the software these "20-30-year-old geniuses" use does what it does...because I was there before it existed?

And one last point...I was able to understand where I stood against my peers professionally. Without technology. Without "age gauges." Without that subtle smile that told me that I really wasn't all that important anymore because I wasn't an "old genius of 20-30." I KNEW, in all caps, when someone was better than me. And I knew when I was better than him/her.



I'm having fun right now being snotty and sarcastic, and having some fun yanking all your chains...but...I'm starting my career over after 40+ years. That makes me something that shouldn't exist under the new rules, I guess. So lets remember this conversation in about 6 months. By then, I'll have my studios realigned, my software upgraded to current standards. All that good stuff. And I'll be a newbie. And I'll post my newbie attempts here, and we'll have another discussion about "20-30-year-old geniuses" vs. we "dead men/women."

In fact, as a friendly competitive reason to live one more week and maybe another excuse for everyone here to have some real fun (no sarcasm meant---I'm serious), why don't I use the "antique materials and software I now have to assemble some pieces for your honest critical review. It'll take me a month or so because of some matters I have to settle first, but I'd be interested in how I stack up...I mean...being dead and all... :)

[Marie]

Never let age, or being dead for that matter, stop you from doing what you love. My college experience found me in classes with people not just twice my age, but triple. For the most part they always ended up earning some serious respect in my book. Most were "starting over" or "starting something new" despite people telling them they "were too old"

"I'm too old to learn something new" is kind of like saying "well I am getting closer to being dead so I might as well stop living now..."

I think I jumped on the tangent express...

[0kelvin]

I have far more respect for experience than I do talent.



0kelvin

[Carnifex]

agree with 0kelvin.
also most artists have to train their talent before getting known. not everyone has as much time as lungbug or wes. or atleast,not everyone takes as much time.
we're gonna ask you when you're 20 or more-"why aren't you better yet?"
and don't call 20-30 old because that's gonna cause massive irritation between most of the forum members,who happen to fall into just that age group.

[SteveO]

Save a bullet for me too :(

Make that two bullets..

[dogfood]

Wow, I had so many comments. Being old (so that it's higher math to work out my age), geniuses (and how they all just "happen" to have a lot of experince, that being semi-independant of age), age when you start drawing (the best golf advice I'd heard was to start when you're younger, regardless of when you started), and doing what you love, even if you're dead (I'm going to follow Ilaekae around, even though I can't pronounce his moniker) just pushed them all out and now I can't recall what I really wanted to say. Man, I must be too old.

[look]

Some people start early, some starts late.
And it's just happen that older people are slightly more mature, and they can take critism well, and they don't tend to rush into fancy things and ignore learning basics.

I mean do you really see a lot of teens sit down quietly and do figure studies? Most of them just care to draw DBZ, Sailor Moon or other stylized works without studying the basics first, thus they don't draw as good and don't improve as fast.

[egerie]

Exactly. And then it's what you do all those years that count. You can start at 12 and still suck at 40. You can start at 20 and be great at 30. It all depends what you train, what you learn and if anything sticks to you at all. Skill = learning curve = talent. It's all about grasping the theory as fast as our little brains can whether it's colour, anatomy, design, etc.

Edit (nuance) : having knowledge is one thing tho. Having an artistic sense (being in touch with our emotional intelligence ?) is another. It's a two fronts kind of thing and not everyone remembers that.

[Interceptor]

I think it's because it takes a very mature young person to dedicate thier attention to becoming so skilled and most don't have that kind of patience..

[NoSeRider]

My experiences are most people under the age of 25 make crappy art anyway.

The ones that are young and exceptional are usually rare.

[darth massacre]

(I'm going to follow Ilaekae around, even though I can't pronounce his moniker)
That's EYE-LEAKY (did I get it right this time?) :teeth:

That was what he told me about 2 yrs back :D Dunno if it still applies.


edit: My experiences are most people under the age of 25 make crappy art anyway.
Not always. I could name half a dozen friends off the top of my head who are under 25 and should be working out there right now (but they're stuck in the army), prolly could find more if I dig deeper.


Edit: I dunno if this should be a separate discussion thread.

Since drawing is hand/arm-eye-brain coordination, it isn't a strictly mental thing, but also a physical thing. When I was training for competitive sports and while in the army, I was told that we need to repeat an action at least 2800 times for "muscle memory" to take place. And that "memory" needs to be kept constantly be trained and retrained to maintain the speed and familiarity of the action.

I believe to some levels, "muscle memory" is part of drawing. The more you draw, the better you get....and the easier it becomes. Also lends weight to the old adage, Practice Makes Perfect.

I think for folks who have the aptitude for certain things (I'm avoiding using the word "talent") it would be easier to pick things up. But with proper guidance and enough practice most people could be reasonabily skilled and enjoy the activity to a fuller extent.

[Ilaekae]

I'll accept that...I mean, I know you're chinese and all, so I tend to be a little more patient with you...








HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... :)


Edit: And a solid BRAVO! to your edit. There may be hope for you yet, Grasshopper... :)

[tinyhands]

Could it be...(?)

I was selling art and winning awards for creating art over 20 years before the geniuses I mentioned above were born, and that gives me at least some validity in calling myself a professional?

I know how to do everything these "20-30-year-old geniuses" will ever come up with...without the use of a computer and specialized technology to make life an easy coast to never-never land?

I have used materials and processes you have never even heard of, let alone used?

I understand, because of my background, why the software these "20-30-year-old geniuses" use does what it does...because I was there before it existed?

And one last point...I was able to understand where I stood against my peers professionally. Without technology. Without "age gauges." Without that subtle smile that told me that I really wasn't all that important anymore because I wasn't an "old genius of 20-30." I KNEW, in all caps, when someone was better than me. And I knew when I was better than him/her.

Quite possibly the best post ever.... that's old-school talk and I love it.
Dear god that was refreshing.

P.S. F*%# digital art.

-tiny

[Elwell]

My experiences are most people under the age of 25 make crappy art anyway.
Then again, so do most people over 25.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

luxun said: in my opinion age doesnt matter, its skill.
egerie said: It all depends what you train, what you learn and if anything sticks to you at all. Skill = learning curve = talent. It's all about grasping the theory as fast as our little brains can whether it's colour, anatomy, design, etc.

It's not just about skill, or learning curve and talent. A vital part of it is, opportunity. If you take 10 equally driven, ambitious, motivated, talented artists, gave one of them critically important opportunities that gives them more valuable art knowledge faster, that person will advance much much quicker than the rest. He/she will become the master before the other 9.

Skill and talent is just a part of the puzzel, circumstance and opportunity is the greatest aspect of what makes one great or mediocre. I say this because, you can't learn what you are unaware of. The more aware you are because of opportunity, the better you'll be at a faster rate.

About age, I think opportunity is more important than age. A 15 year old can become the master if given the opportunity to learn all the right knowledge at an early age. But a 30 year old can have that same circumstance happen to them at 30, and the two artists will be closely equal in ability. After that it all depends where there talents, later opportunities, and will power takes them.

-C

[Ilaekae]

[make crappy art] "Then again, so do most people over 25."

Very true. So what's your point, Elwell?

HaHaha :)

[egerie]

Skill and talent is just a part of the puzzel, circumstance and opportunity is the greatest aspect of what makes one great or mediocre. I say this because, you can't learn what you are unaware of. The more aware you are because of opportunity, the better you'll be at a faster rate.-C
Hey Chris. Well in learning I personally include the ability to understand what you're observing and not just dry theory. You learn it trough practice and observation (complemented by theory). Are we on the same wavelengh or.. ?

(holy crap this thread is flying!) :yayca:

[Elwell]

[make crappy art] "Then again, so do most people over 25."

Very true. So what's your point, Elwell?
None, really, past Sturgeon's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_law)

However, blog's initial post, despite his rather... awkward phrasing, dose raise a valid point; why are there so few prodigies in the visul arts compared to other artistic fields? Classical music virtuosi in their early teens or younger are common enough to be almost unremarkable at this point. Child and teen actors regularly deliver performances of equal skill and emotional intensity to adults. And popular music has been driven by artists in their early twenties for the past fifty years.

The visual arts seem to have more in common with writing, in that practitioners take longer to reach a level of artistic competence, but then have a longer and steadier period of productive maturity.

[dogfood]

Child and teen actors regularly deliver performances of equal skill and emotional intensity to adults. And popular music has been driven by artists in their early twenties for the past fifty years.
...but then have a longer and steadier period of productive maturity.
I wonder if it's because of the effects of success or percieved failure in these industries. If you poop out your second album or movie, your third is unlikely to see the light of day. But producing art is something else entirely. One failure, or even a string can be redeemed by one success, which can be dropped again, repeating the cycle until death slows the artist down and makes all of his work wildly popular. Like writing, you have more control over the quality than in acting or most music. Classic virtuosos seem to go on forever, though.

[Unit18_Nate]

I was just wondering that a lot of tthe excellent artists are all quite old, like in their late 20's or early 30's. How come? Does this have something to do with their skill? I guess I admire artists like wes9000 and lungbug more just because of the skill they have attained at such an early age. How come there aren't enough of such young artists as those guys yet that are so talented?

What is your opinion?


Now you just hold on there sonny. I'll have to get my cane and beat ya for that remark.

I think it's more a matter of when people decide to get really serious about what they are doing.

Many of us old farts in our 30s :P have been drawing for longer than teenagers. It just goes to figure that an older artist has more experience. However people can pick up drawing and art at any age and excel. I know 'yongsters' in their teens and 20s that make me want to burn my sketchbook.
Perception changes as you get older as well but it changes at different times for different people. There really is no substitue for experience, skill, and craftsmanship which all come with time and hard work. People throw talent around like it matters but the most important things are experience and dedication. I'm 30 and I feel I have a long way to go and many things I need to improve on. Honestly I hope I feel the same way at 40 because I'm pretty sure all the great artist die thinking that tomorrow they will make their best work.

[arkinet]

my humble opinion(beeing old myself..cough*),... a few reason why teens usually miss the limelight:
1. MOST art by teens are just a copy of an anime, or a cut from the latest game, or maybe been modified a bit... originality? hmmm...
2. Opportunities are mostly open to those who have experiences. A few could've gotten in but as the 'backstage' hand...
And of course, when you're 'mature', not necessarily meant to be old(around 20s ;) ), you can take up more responsibility, able to focus on projects til its done, then you have a lot stacked in your portfolio, thus have more chances of beeing let in, once doors are knocked. Coz art is not just about talent, or passion... its also about discipline. Do you think we could appreciate the painting at sistine chapel if its half done?... hmmm, maybe we could :wink: ... but my point is, these 20-60(hehehe, gotta increase it so nobody ends up dead)guys work their butt-off to get the job done, on deadline, not just a one time "won that competition" thing... and w/ technology nowadays like the net, word spread so quickly, & BOOM!! Their work are all over the place...

I started drawing even before I can write(like most kids do), but noticed I can draw better than my classmates in gradeschl... talent?.. I guess... won a few school wide competition, but lost interest when I took up architecture(though I beat FA students in a college-wide poster contest)... came back when I saw CGT M&S challenge(speaking of a late start :S ), and Im beyond your 20-30 bracket... famous? Nah... as long as I love my work(Im working on it :wink: )

[light]

Seems that this art business really came in at the time to let the artists currently in their 20-30's into it. I was also wondering alot how come most of the artists currently in the business are so young, but I guess the jobs just dont appeal to people at like 50 or older with games, movies and comics. I feel lucky that at an age like mine, that I found a place like conceptart because I know I probably wouldnt have stuck with art otherwise, and I think some of the other teens on this site could agree.

[Qitsune]

Well, it's a tough industry (like most creative ones) and the burn out factor is not to be neglected. I have many friends around 30 who abandonned the video game field already. I guess the same is true for other artistic jobs.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

egerie - Yeah I agree it's not just dry theory, and you have to observe and practice. So I think we're on the same wavelength 8)

I was just saying that when you have the opportunity to experience more, faster than most people, that speeds up your observation, understanding, and practice because you have more to observe than others, you understand more, and the knowledge you gain that most don't have the opportunity to get, betters your practice. Well, assuming that perosn is driven for it.

[Sinix]

So all the good artists didn't start 'drawing' when they were 14, if they had passion for art, how come they didn't?

There seems to be a strong view of artists as people who are BORN artists, they grow up as artists, and are focused on the arts from the start. I don't get why it's different from other professions. I didn't give a shit about art growing up... the only reason I considered trying to learn to draw was because I failed at acouple other professions and figured I could try writing a book (was pretty much screwed for careers at this point, 19 and not in college)... then maybe a comic book.. and since I like doing things myself, maybe I could make some passable crappy art for it. I've since developed a love for art.

Also... it's not the age, it's how many hours they have put into it. Lung has probably filled more sketchbooks than most mid-20s people.

[Quinster]

Theres been some very talented, young artists. One such is one of my heros: Joseph Christain Leyendecker (J.C. Leyendecker). When he was in his teens he was incredibley talented. At age 19 he did this picture http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/leyend8.jpg and won an award. Just goes to show age isn't always the source of talent.

[NoSeRider]

Eh, I won 3rd place at the Del Mar Fair once.

[Dished]

So all the good artists didn't start 'drawing' when they were 14, if they had passion for art, how come they didn't?

The same reason why you have to wait for eggo waffles to toast.

Think about it this way...lets say artists are the eggo waffles coming from different freezers. The toaster is pretty much the world, and each freezer is well,the different families,lifestyles,etc environment we grow in... Now you put the waffles in the toaster, such as being born to the world. Waffles arent put into the toaster toasted already,theyve got to defrost,and heat up. Each waffle comes from a different freezer, most likely different temperatures,and with each different temperature,it takes different times for the waffle to defrost. They may not defrost right away or pulled out of the freezer but the waffles are still good,yummy,and eggo, only theyre not defrosted.


Each person finds their passion when theyre young,or when their older. Passion, I think doesnt mean at first practicing your ass off cause you wanna improve..thats the next level of it. Passion first starts with your love to draw, such as a little 3 year old scribbling on the walls because they enjoy it. The reason why we all study hard and practice and do tedious studies over and over and over again, is because of the motivation driven by the passion to want to learn and to want to improve and just simply draw. Passion is what simply makes us want to draw.



*goes back to eating eggo waffles...*

[Ilaekae]

"Seems that this art business really came in at the time to let the artists currently in their 20-30's into it. I was also wondering alot how come most of the artists currently in the business are so young, but I guess the jobs just dont appeal to people at like 50 or older with games, movies and comics. I feel lucky that at an age like mine, that I found a place like conceptart because I know I probably wouldnt have stuck with art otherwise, and I think some of the other teens on this site could agree."


You've just skirted around something that many of us often forget, LightKindar. We don't work in a vacuum.

I was one of those crackpots that "knew" he was going to be an artist (first recognizable drawing at age 2-1/2) from the start. How good I was going to be would depend on me---dedication, practice, exposure, learning, some good advice/guidance---all that good stuff. And one other important factor that not many of us think about, but you implied in your post...the time must be just right for our skills/interests to fit.

Before my entry into the real art world, advertising was controlled by copywriters, sales types, "art directors," and a support staff of "illustrators" and studio types. I showed up just as the "conceptual designers" were taking control, and the incredible creative outburst of the 60-70s was taking place. I fit. I survived. I survived so long that I witnessed the world I knew change drastically with computers, different attitudes to marketing and the access to more economical printing. It's now a field that I'm not proud of, and I honestly don't think there's a place for me there anymore anyway. I'm a dinosaur.

This dinosaur has decided that the world you have in front of YOU actually looks quite interesting and exciting. I will never be able to compete with you and your age group, because you grew up with a totally different mesh with life. I have yet to play a video game, and I probably never will. But...I see the possibility to learn something I never had access to before, and I feel like a kid again.

The earth-shakers today in our world of art ARE younger, and ARE more technologically advanced. This is as it should be. It's your (you younger guys all inclusive) world, not mine. What I see for myself now is trying to learn---something none of us should ever stop doing---and maybe see things from a slightly different angle than maybe you younger guys would. I have had experiences and worked in environments that you thankfully will never have to undergo, but you'll have your own problems to overcome. The 12 and 13-year-olds coming up on the tails of all you 20-30 "old-timers" will be as different from you as you are from me.

It's the right time to do whatever it is you're doing. Enjoy it. Run with it. Don't worry about the shit, and make your mark...as a professional. It won't be easy. It won't be a straight line path. And it probably won't make you rich. So...fuck it and enjoy yourselves. :)

And when you're famous, send me a post card...

[darth massacre]

It won't be easy. It won't be a straight line path. And it probably won't make you rich. So...fuck it and enjoy yourselves.
Mmmm. I'll make sure I use this line again when I get to your age :D

[dogfood]

So all the good artists didn't start 'drawing' when they were 14, if they had passion for art, how come they didn't?
I'm not sure if I can beat Dished's Eggo analogy, but I have an easier answer: they didn't have a passion for art at 14. Many people don't find their passion until much later, as the brain develops different areas at different rates for different people (all leading to the conclusion that everyone is different. Except me; I'm not different).

In my case, I was drawing very early and planned on going to art school (Art Center in Pasadena... yeah, right). I then discovered another pursuit that I felt I might do well at, a path only slightly less traveled than that of the artist. I figured I could still draw on the side, but time, being its nature, was limited and I basically gave up art (with the exception of patch and t-shirt design) for 16 years (ow; that hurts writing that). Now I have rediscovered it and with the help of this community am revitalized and want to learn again, far more serious than I was in my teens and twenties.

[NoSeRider]

I drew at 14, matter of fact I think I was drawing....or copying....pretty well at 7, but I didn't start drawing in my own style till I was well into my mid 20's.

What I mean by my own style is, no reference, no copying and no swiping....all drawings coming out of my head. My ideas.....that I probably picked up from somebody else, but they were still in my head for potential to make my own.

When I mean 'good' art, I mean making up something that is your creation. Having your own style and your own concepts.

[Ilaekae]

Right On, NoSeRider...

Original art is the equivalent of letting other people look inside your head.

How many 12, 14, or even 20-year-olds are mature enough and confident enough in their own hormonal world to let that happen? Hell, I STILL hide some roughs/ideas that just come to me, even from my wife, and I'm one of those people who has to be reminded to put my pants on so I don't get arrested when I go outside.

[arkinet]

ilaekae: You have dementia? :$ ... jst kidding :rendered:

[Ilaekae]

Arkinet: Sometimes I wonder myself... :lol