Open debate concerning "the War"

[stalecracker]

This is my post from a thread in "It's finally finished". If anyone would like to continue the conversation, feel free to do so... here's the original thread-

here t'is (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4444)


"The United States could buy all the oil it wants from Iraq by lifting the sanctions and helping to reconstruct the Iraqi oil fields. It is THE French and Russians who have oil deals with Saddam and thus are fixated on that issue. They don't want a war that would upset those deals.

Don't you think if it was only "All about oil and economics" that we (America) would have deposed Hussein and "acquired" the Iraqi oil fields the FIRST time?!? Hell, we COULD have said to the Kuwaiti's "You know, Saddam just walked right in here... For your protection we're going to take control of your oil fields, AND for YOUR own protection, hang on to them for awhile... at least until we know your Okay." JUST about Economics and Oil? Ignorance is bliss, but Stupid is stupid. If anyone would like to persue this further... Join me in the Lounge.

As Secretary of State Colin Powell said
"We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last 100 years . . . and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in.""

[mime]

of course every country have his fails and of course our president Chirac is extremely hypocritical in his words ... and i dont really think that most of the "pro-peace" country leaders really care for the lifes of the iraqis ... there is so much little economical wars behind this ... people that only want to show that they exists and disagree with the USA, countries that want to prove that they can think by themselves, etc ...
But the point is that in the end there is no real reason to start a war so soon, when Hans Blix says that the 1441 resolution is starting to work ...

you can read THIS (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html) , it has some good analisys about what i was trying to show in my painting, even if i overdid it ...
well i am not the type of person that usually speak about politics, i admit that i hate it because i see bad people everywhere, in every countries, but when it comes to the life of innocent people ... i am angry. Of course i was angry with the 11th september events, dont attack me on that, i am not at all some anti-usa, i am just opposed to Bush politics ... and i fear for the future.

If any of you heard what MICKAEL MOORE (filmmaker of Bowling for Columbine) said in Paris when the ceremony of CESARs (french equivalent for academy awards), that was a really damn good speech, and SPIKE LEE did also a wonderful speech.

[stalecracker]

I'll read that tonight. Thanks for posting it...

"But the point is that in the end there is no real reason to start a war so soon, when Hans Blix says that the 1441 resolution is starting to work ..."

In response to this, people forget something...
"The rush is more like a baby crawl. Iraq has been in material breach of United Nations resolutions since a few weeks after the Gulf War ended in 1991. New resolutions have been approved, inspectors ousted, and the United Nations made to look impotent. President Bush has taken all the steps asked of him before going to war: getting the approval of Congress, getting another U.N. resolution
(with perhaps yet another on the way), and building a coalition of supporters. He's hardly rushing."

"There was no peace treaty, only the truce, so the state of war resumes when the conditions are violated. By attacking now, the United States would be ending the war, not
starting it."

[Theo]

lol, as if the "rules" make any moral difference.

[stalecracker]

You can "LOL" all you want but "rules" and morality are not independant of each other. The work best when they work together. There are times when "fighting" is the morally right thing to do and when "not fighting" is. There are also times when the reverse applies...

[el coro]

stalecracker, i just gotta say i agree completely with you on this. its a problem that needs to be fixed. i know bush is an idiot, shit, i'm FROM texas... but Saddam needs a tune up.
innocent deaths suck, but that's just the nature of a war. and, lets be honest here, the french and germany aren't going to even be taking any casualties, let us worry about that. after september 11, i feel as an american that my way of life has been threatened, and we need to take steps to rectify that. this is the first step. i also gotta say that i see retaliation as a reality, and i think we as americans are gonna have to be on our toes these coming months. i fear for the future as well, but my country's earth has been scorched my the scurge of terrorism, and i just think it would be stupid to just lay there and take it. that's simply not what america is about. we are proud( well i am at least) of our rich culture and way of life, and must preserve it at any cost. i don't care what country you're from, you have got to understand that perspective.-c36

[el coro]

http://www.coro36ink.com/updates/sketchbook/hippie.jpg
i'm sick of seeing all this shit....

[Coma]

To me there is no other option but to over power saddam and his following.

The man kills his own people.
threatens the world with his unstable regime and weapons of mass destruction...

Everyone keeps acting like we can talk saddam out of his bullshit some how, we can't we've been trying since the first war we took part in with Iraq...

Face it, we have tried to change Iraq's instability diplomatically for like 11 years... IT HASN'T WORKED... and every moment we leave this man in power the safety of the world, most of all of our home land is growing short it's life span.

People die from war? duh, I'll die for something I believe in with no remorse or second thought...

Now is a time for us as humans to evaluate our own beliefs.
and to ask our selves... Will we die for the women and children that saddam has torched. Will we respect those innocent people the same way that we respect those from our own country.

I can tell you NOW that if I as an American saw one human from any country or walk of life being mistreated I would give my life to better their situation. Wouldn't you?

[mcotie]

:beer:
I'm drinkin now because when Cowboy George, my daddy, sends me in the sandbox, I won't be able to drink anything but warm ass water, through a gas mask.

dun it before, time to do it again.


So fuck it, lets go.


But the question is? will the people of this or that country respect us for what we did? Or will they shove more commercial liners up our ass because we didn't do it the way they wanted us to do it. Or spit in our face because we killed "innocent" Iraqi people children packin heat?

casualties of war I guess right?

There's a such thing as a good war and one that smells like skunk shit.


mitch

[Orban]

Hussein is an Evil man(I insist on the caps), a butcher. I must agree.
But hell, USA don't go to Israel to end the war, no in Tchetchenia.
They do not care that the Corea has the fucking nuclear war bomb.
They don't have find Ben Laden, who's responsible for the terrorism attack - and Ben Laden hasn't thing to do for now with the Irak :confused:
Until another Bush are the president, we don't have heard of the Irak, or just a few line in some paperwork.

All politics here are hypocritical. They all want to lead the world politics, but I sincerely prefer a world in peace than a world with war - a war who has obscure reason to it and hasn't the support required to it.
A war will not disarm Irak, it will make lot of people die - I know, it's their job for most. The people in Irak will not be better after that, they will trade one governement for another. Russia has tryed to do thing like that, do you remember? It hasn't work for lot of reason.
And furthermore I think terrorism act will be raised again, against the nation who attack them - stupid way to react, I know.

For my point of view, a war is not necesserally NOW. Pressure are necessary, it's a fact, but not directly war. I don't want a world where there's war for anything, we, the human, can do better.

There's no good war, no winner :(

I understand you mcotie, coro and the other, but I don't feel it's the right way :)

You, America people are in a Christian country, one of the most religious, if I remember well(I'm not christian, nor from any big religion) revenge it's not the greatest act you can do ;)(Sorry, I hate when Bush use religion to justify the war, or when Saddam call to the Djihad, both are stupid)

I hope one day we won't have to talk anymore about thing like that(yeah, I know I'm an utopist).

Well... back to my sheet of paper :mad:

[Coma]

Mcotie I don't really know (because this is a forum) if that was sarcasm but either way, I have a reply.

"But the question is? will the people of this or that country respect us for what we did? Or will they shove more commercial liners up our ass because we didn't do it the way they wanted us to do it. Or spit in our face because we killed "innocent" Iraqi people children packin heat?

casualties of war I guess right?"


Casualties of war, no. Casualties of the very reason war has to take place...

All I'm saying is as of right now I see no way around it, we can't ignore saddam's threats and we cant seem to reason with him.

All I'm saying is that eventually war will take place, because of the current government in Iraq.

As far as the N.korea comment:
There is NO chance North Korea would actually use their nukes, they have shown them selves to be quite sane, as a matter of fact, there is the same chance of NK popping a nuke as there is the US...


I'm not pro-war, I'm not anti-war...
I am just trying to look at the situation from a logical perspective.

And for god sake, Bush is NO father of mine.

[silent Insanity]

I agree with you coma.. world opinion is very important and bush doesnt seem to know how to play that game.
North Korea is like a baby complaigning trying to win international support and aid(Any country that uses a nuke against the u.s is insane.)

People protesting on the street with signs like no war for oil are showing that they have no intelligence and can only follow all the other idiots. If we are so hungry for money alaska has a large ammount of oil but i guess we would rather protect our wildlife.

How much oil could we buy with the billions we would spend on a war campaign against iraq, or the billions we give in aid to foreign countries including Notrth Korea and Russia. We give out more aid than all the countries in the world combined(somewhere around 90% if im not mistaken.) But i guess the world is right we are money hungry and bent on war for iraqs oil :rolleyes:

[sparth]

i saw that painting yesterday, and i agree with peeps finding it excessive. mime, that thing is like hard to look at. it was definitely your goal, but i'm convinced the actual political controversy do not need any additional extremism. as this war is also, no matter what peeps might think, a war defending the interests of nations.

el coro: i agree with you mate about the fact america must not remain silent after such an agression.
however, i would criticize seeing you losing your calm againts peeps who may express an anti-war opinion. that's what america and democracy is all about. do not exterminate the side you don't agree with, or you might end up with democracy going a big "poof".

here's a little blabla i wrote on eatpoo yesterday, it might explain my pov on the matter. even though we've had these discussions with mitch. about the muslilm world, and terrorism:
terrorism is the latest and final weapon that the decadent muslim world found in order to be respected by the world. is it really a surprise to you?
in order to fight that plague, you must absolutely undertand it first.
i find it pathetic when peeps can make such a general and single comment about muslims. it shows the strenght of the clichés. it is an insult to all the moderate muslims that have been trying to fix all the broken pieces for years. read about it damit, try to understand why the middle east is moved by so many political earthquakes and conflicts.

i mean, look at it: the arabic world, for ages, has always been considered as a colony. first by europe, and afterwards by the states. oil has fucked up the arabic economic structure, is it that hard to understand? bin laden is a pure product of such inequalities between the west and orient. most of the peeps back there did not receive a single dollar from the oil. we told them they were going to suddenly receive a lot of money because of oil investments. but for decades, the only ones who became rich were the saudis from the royal family. when effectively governements received financial support, it was becoming dramatic, simply because most of these countries had not even reached any pre industrial status. in other words, give a 5 pounds hamburger to a starving ethiopian, and force him to swallow the whole thing, do you really thing he's going to survive? same for oil money.
us occidentals don't give a shit about how much the arabic world is drowning into extremism. from the moment the opep countries do not raise the oil price, that's the only thing counting. but you see, it has gone so far already, and the support of the us to israel has become so important, thanx to the jewish american lobbies, that the arabic realised there was no way out of this mess, they were not supported any more, not even by the fading ussr. mostly, you must not think that the arabic world was anti american. it was not. the arabic world had only one wish in the sixties: enter into the wealthy occident, be part of the great democratic adventure to which we belong. but you see, the doors were CLOSED. definitely closed. occident needed oil, nothing else. besides, arabics have always been considered as a second hand population right?
look at the american diplomacy in the seventies, you'll see that the choice was slowly becoming evident. us jewish lobbies, by using a very drastic and harsh attitude, (don't forget the nazi barbary, don't forget about the fact jews and sionists made it clear: the jews had suffered so much, now they were going to defend themselves against any new agression towards their people) forced the american administration to cut all arabic-american ties, in order to see israel prevail. of course, supporting israel was very important to occidentals, as it was a way to give them justice after the terrible mass murdering from this crazy dictatorial europe of the 40s. but the balance was clear to arabic countries: they understood that the us had definitely voted for israel.
true, jimmy carter, breaking with the kissinger attitude, tried in the mid seventies, to rebuilt the ties with cairo, beyruth, algier, rabbah, but you see, once again, for the american jews, it was a nono. and it still is.

you, me, are responsible for this crazyness. it was europe and america's duty to give the jews a place into history and a soil, but at what cost? is it really a reason to close our eyes on the palestinian extermination happening right now? simply because we believe israel is on the good side of the fence?

as in a mirror, the image we give to the muslim world is an image of racism, encouraged by our own pleasing propaganda about good and evil. you expected them to remain passive?
the arabic world was forgotten long ago, don't be suprised to see it slowly grow up again, but on a bad soil, full of anger and vengeance towards a west that has despised them for ages.
terrorism is the despicable weapon of the poor, it has to be fought by any means. but first try to undertand its structure, and you'll fight it even better.

sorry for being so long.

[Dark_Crystal]

Out of interest can someone tell me why the first war was called of?

I'm currently undecided about the war, I'm all for getting rid of Saddam
But I don't want to see bombs dropped on cities, weddings, hospitals and the usual places
A war will not disarm Irak, it will make lot of people die - I know, it's their job for most. The people in Irak will not be better after that
I'm worried theat you might be right about this

[Theo]

Bah everyones so fuckin prejudice and im tired of it.

I quote this from the text that mime linked to:

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be . . . The People cannot be safe without information. When the press is free, and every man is able to read, all is safe."

I hope one day everyone will be able to see everything from ANYONES point of view. that way, conflict will never rise.

Im not agains anyone, im not for anyone either, merely adding the obvious to the conversation:)

:chug:

-Theo

[mcotie]

yes it is sarcasm. I'm not for it at all. It's going to stoke the fire. Most people don't see it from Sparth's angle. Especially Americans because of 9/11.

But I'm in the Reserves and if I'm called, I'm going.

Read, open your eyes, look beyond the CNN wrapper. The U.S. should be the leader that it is, and show the world how to handle things without mindless destruction based on restrained anger. I'm a father of two, every day I make decisions that are based on, "am I doing the right thing? How will my kids see it? What example am I setting?" This is no different.

mitch

[kaini]

I am extremly disgusted by these recent talks about, war, politics etc. Possible victims are not even discussed in the media, as if it was an unworthy topic.
We live in 21 century, there's so much history to learn from, preceding generations already commited all possible mistakes and we still didn't learn anything.
Humanitary organisations are already preparing for a desaster, hundreads of thousands of victims, children and women, destroyed families.

It's no more politics, what we experience right now is an impertinent, silly farce ! To me, it seems like a bad Hollywood-movie, only it's for real which makes it even more ridiculous and transparent.

Mr Bush and others fuck the world and we talk about nonsense like what was 10 years ago, 1441, oil, Saddams mustache, old europe, money and above all: religion, vengeance and patriotism. Quote: "we are proud" , I mean...wtf ?

I'm sure half of you think what I wrote is naive, pacifistic teen crap. Believe me I know all the subtleties concerning this conflict, I read the newspapers daily. However the more informations I get, the more I think that these intricacies are completely irrelevant, there isn't even an urgent necessity to attack Iraq, simply because of the lack of acute danger.

This conflict is not complex, the real motives are blatant and outrageous !!

ps: well said Sparth and Mcotie

[ceenda]

sparth: very well spoken.

It just seems that the Bush Administration is heading towards the kind of short term /quick-fix meddling that is going to have terrible repurcusions down the line.

Without a close examination of the root causes of terrorism it doesn't matter how many extremists you blow up, there are at least 4 willing converts to take the place of each one.

[Coma]

I edited this originally because I sounded like a bitch. I apologize.

I just think that war is inevitable.
And I hate to be this way but, humanity will repeat it's mistakes until we no longer exist. It's the nature of this species...

I understand sparth's post.
In America every day children are raped, yet they are still punished if they grow up and kill or rape them selves.
It's like a infection of hate, that's written in to the very soul of humanity. The choice is always there though...

Mcotie I'm having a hard time understanding you.
You would go to war for something you don't believe in?

[mcotie]

recycle bin, restore file...

Coma,

yes I have to. I have a commitment. I've been in the military for 16+ years now. I have 3 and some change left. Even if i don't believe in it I have to do what I have to do. Sure I could be a consciensous (sp) objector, a deserter, and not go if they give me orders. The repercussions of such actions in the military are pretty tough. I would much rather fight a war I don't believe in, than spend the rest of my life (or worse) in Leavenworth (military prison). I would rather take the chance that I would make it back alive and be with my family. Call it greed if you will. But I'm in a tough situation.

I wonder if there are Iraqi people that feel the same way I do?

mitch

[Coma]

heh sorry, there you go :p

[el coro]

sparth: yeah, i understand all that, but i'm not the asshole on the corner with the sign yelling my opinions at people. i live in san francisco, home of the liberal hippie fucks, and i can't help but feel fed up when i see all these breast fed college kids who have never worked an honest days work in their lives, living off mommy and daddys money, standing on the corner with signs, yelling their opinions at me. if they dont like america and its policies, they should go live somewhere else. i understand that the right to protest is what makes our country so great, but i just get fed up with all the silly protesting. besides, at the end of the day, protesting isn't going to make any difference. and i truly believe that. i'm sorry if i touched a nerve, but in my opinion, fuck 'em. just as they'd probably say the same thing about me and my views. the only difference is that i dont stand on the corner with a sign, yelling at folks.-c36

[Goo]

I'm not Pro-Saddam, nor am i for the war.

one of the reasons i'm against this war is of the double standards US applies on Iraq and N. Korea. the publicity over this war against iraq compaign has completely covered North Korea's recent activities.

as for the controversial piece, i believe everyone is entitled to his/her opinions as well as interpretations. to ally the 911 incident with the war is plain ignorance in my opinion. the war is about disarment of Iraq's missiles, whereas 911 is about the war against terrorism. people forget things, true, but incidents that are 911 will forever be etched in history as well as people's minds.

also, the way bush stated that USA could(or would) go to war even if the UN is against it smacks of arrogance. recent tabloids' treatment of france also irks me. in some of the papers i read, the writers seem to foget the role france played in establishing USA's independance. and the statue of liberty was made and designed in france. while these are not debts that aren't or cannot be repaid, the way the writers flamed France is dissappointing.

people dont want war because of casualties. if USA carpet bombs Iraq like they did in afghanistan. they would save countless american lives, sure, but there would also be countless innocent iraqi lives lost due to mistakes.

this forum originally seem like paradise, unlike the others, where there were constant topics on controversial issues, but the piece was like a pandora's box. close the topic and lets get on with art, this issue is taking up too much time.

[Coma]

Oh ok, I understand that.

"I wonder if there are Iraqi people that feel the same way I do?"

Oh I'm sure many do, considering the fact that if they speak out their family's will possibly be murdered in their sleep the following night.

[mcotie]

el coro

I protest. not all of us that are against the war are liberal hippie fucks. Yes I was raised by them. But I've served my country and still do. If anybody in this forum "DESERVES" the right to protest it is me (and any others that served).

I respect your anger and opinions, but be cautious about slinging names. each of us have a different story, and as americans have a right to voice. This country was born out of protests.

mitch

[el coro]

mcotie: duly noted. i too was raised by liberial hippie fucks. and i have family currently serving in the military. but you live in texas, where there haven't been 100,000 person protests blocks from your home. i really respect your opinion, and that last remark wasn't directed at you. shit if you're currently serving, you can say anything you want. you'll get nothing but respect from me, holmes. my comments are directed toward the idiots i see on the street up here, which i described in an earlier post. i am just a proud american. this country has been damn good to me, and at the end of the day i feel i have to support it. these are simply my opinions, and they are every bit as valid as yours, or any of those punks two blocks away from me with the signs...take it with a grain of salt.

[mcotie]

cool!

[silent Insanity]

I think we should adopt isolationism...

[silent Insanity]

Oh and by the way israell targets terrorist groups the palistinians targets civilians of coarse im gonna side with the israelies.

[mtw]

The caller in this radio show segment (http://komo1000news.com/audio/kvi_aircheck_031003.mp3) basically says why I think Saddam should be removed.

[franz]

Originally posted by el coro
i am just a proud american. this country has been damn good to me, and at the end of the day i feel i have to support it.

I too love the US (well, for the most part). But don't you think you need to differentiate between the country and its current administration? You say you feel that you have to support your country.. well, then it's your responsibility to question every step your government takes and think about where they're steering the ship that is your country.

I for one am very troubled by the fact that the most powerful country in the world is currently led by people whose motives are beyond questionable.. :( The "Project for the New American Century" (PNAC) has been developing plans for an "American global leadership"[1] since 1997, and now 10 of the "Statement of Principles" signatories are very close to or even part of the US cabinet.

These people don't want the oil as a source of energy, they want the oil as power, power over the region and thereby indirect control over any state that relies on this resource.. In the long term they're going for global hegemony, and their method is war. There's a PNAC document[2] that outlines all of this and more, it even mentions scenarios that have the US military fighting multiple wars at once.. I mean, wtf?

Look at all the crap that has already happened since this administration took office (cancelling international treaties etc.).. Lately they've been instrumentalizing the tragedy that was 9/11 for their goals (Patriot Act anyone?) with some powerful people even cashing in on the citizens' fear[3], they've tried to control and monitor the internet[4], and now they're making up links between 9/11 and Iraq, active disinformation.. And it works, thanks to the media: 50% of all Americans believe that at least one of the WTC terrorist was an Iraqi, 44% believe that several were Iraqis[5].. :eek:

14 days from now the war will be probably be well underway.. and of course the US will have handpicked the journalists who get permission to report from the scene. They openly threatened to open fire on independent journalists[6] ("who cares"). :doh:

But luckily we have the Internet now - do your own research and see what you come up with..[7]

There's no doubt that Saddam Hussein is a Very Evil Man who does Very Evil Things to his people, but he's been just that for centuries without anybody objecting, the US even supported him when he was fighting a common enemy[8]. And a *lot* of countries (France, USA, Germany, Russia, etc) have actively done (or tolerated) business with this very man, completely ignoring his wrongdoings, all in the name of money. :( Money and power are everything and getting there is worth *any* sacrifice. I guess that's what it boils down to.. A gigantic game of Command & Conquer :huh:


[1] http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
[2] http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
[3] http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/030317fa_fact
[4] http://geocities.com/totalinformationawareness/
[5] http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
[6] http://www.gulufuture.com/news/kate_adie030310.htm
[7] http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/10/ma_273_01.html
[8] http://www.creativeresistance.ca/world-awareness/2002-sept06-dick-cheney-supports-war-on-iraq.htm

[fletchgirl]

Originally posted by franz

[edit]There's no doubt that Saddam Hussein is a Very Evil Man who does Very Evil Things to his people, but he's been just that for centuries without anybody objecting.

centuries? wow... that's a long time.
:D

I don't mind the protestors, even when they're in my front yard, i wouldn't join them, but just because i don't feel strongly about either side... i understand both sides, but i don't particularly agree with either one of them, or not really that, i don't agree with the way the sides are being presented. This is not a question of war or peace... there's already war... not doing anything would not make it peaceful. people seem to be saying, we shouldn't cause trouble. There's already trouble. yes, i agree, we are part of that trouble. not all of it, PART. anyway, i can't add anything new to what's being said, but the what bugs me are how celebrities are getting involved... "I'm not the president, but i play one on t.v., and i think..." :rolleyes: They even have polls where they ask people, "do what celebrities say affect you?" and like, 75% percent of people say "no" and then they go "there you have it, no one cares what they think, now here's cheryl crow..." i don't even know what to think about the whole thing, but i know i don't care what they think. not that this has anything to do with the rest of the conversation. i just had to rant.:rant:

[conor]

ever since the fall of Russia’s communist state, America has been the most powerful country in the world. During this time, America has been considering a very important question.

Will America become an empire or remain a state ?

this is the key question everybody in America should be asking themselves, and the rest of the world is waiting for an answer.

before I continue I'd just like to state that whatever moral high ground the bush administration is able to take, is simply convenient. Simply forget those questions. Why? because while Saddam is quite a ruthless individual, ousting him will not effect the situation altogether too much. Also while Americans are hating Saddam, there are many others out there who are doing similar things in other 3rd world countries. Why don’t you hear about them? because there is no money to be made directly out of the them, so why bother(says the media, who are very much in line with the government). while I am on media, I'd just like to say don’t trust any big media guru like CNN. I barely even trust their basic facts, and I always throw out any even remotely subjective term they try and throw at you. forget all emotion except your own when dealing government. Bush is not avenging his father, nor is he just this guy out to get his jollies and make the oil companies a buck or two. Every side has a simplified argument. left=bush wants oil right=saddam is evil. These are simply too simple for anyone to rightfully accept them as the whole truth.

that out of the way, I will continue. the past 20 years or so, America's middle class has been on a slow and steady decline. The fall of communism meant for America the cooling of big war business which had bolstered the strength of America's economy, thus allowing for blue collared workers to be middle class. luckily, even from 1930, America has slowly been moving into higher and higher stages of white collar management, so we evaded that bullet. However, the entertainment monster that we have created has been sucking the middle class of its wealth. Only now we begin to see the real effects, but it is quite imperative to notice them.
Clinton took the FDR plan of putting money into the pockets of the people for them to bolster the economy. but instead of a few bucks to the poor, its a few hundred to the middle class. This worked fairly well. (just as a fun side note, Clinton was the first middle class president.)

However, Bush in seeing his chance with 9/11, hopes war will better boost the economy. he'd be right too, if it weren’t for the fact that he has to tax the middle class. Why? because Bush was elected by big money. thusly, he is not going to tax them for the war. however, this is not possible. the middle class is weak.

But Bush plans to tax them anyway, because he has not choice.

So, as a result, bush is forced to go the way of the Empire, if he wishes to succeed in any manner. if he stayed state, the middle class , the backbone of America and the real dream of government, would collapse . Bush is making a dash for that oil, and is betting America's future on it. If he succeeds, America will economically control the world, until oil becomes obsolete. which will not be any time soon. Either way, success or not, the way the world works is going to radically change. However, one thing there isn’t a question about is whether or not we are going to war. The answer is yes, we are.

also just a few comments that have been peppered throughout this thread.

one fellow said that this forum was a haven as it seemed to have avoided the discussion of war. And rather than concern ourselves we should continue on with the art. It's that kind of attitude I find quite foolish. Are you a member of this world? if so, this war will change the way you live, one day or another. Healthy debate is good for every forum. The subject of discussion is never at fault for causing problems, it is only the way in which it is discussed.

Sparth, the middle east I don’t believe was ever really considered much of a colony. if you were talking about the English, Portuguese or Dutch( the three biggest colonizers in the world, from about the end of the dark ages, peaking at the renaissance, and descending during the industrial period.) then no. Oil was not any real commodity back then. the biggest trades were in spices, land and ivory. the middle east has no elephants, its simply a route to get to the far east, and has pretty crappy land anyway you look at it. Religion is the only thing going for it, which becomes less and less important with each decade. Only with the invention of oil operated machines did the middle east really come into play.

el coro, you seem to support the ability to protest government actions, yet despise the inconvenience it causes you. That’s simple foolishness. Please, simply try to take a different route if your path happens to be around a governmentally orientated building. if they are protesting around areas that are not so orientated, please ask to talk to their leader figure and ask them to move to a more appropriate area. Simply because you have lost your spirit and vigor in dealing with government, doesn't mean others should. Also, you seem to agree with the author of Starship Troopers idea that serving in the military grants a higher level of citizenship. However, what if the government is fundamentally incorrect in its actions? problems do arise out of that situation. The only incorrectness which is committed by the people is ignorance of what is going on.

sorry for rambling on so long. The opinions I saw during this thread were quite surprising to me that I had to respond at 1 am after a very full day of work. thanks for reading, I look forward to responses.

[franz]

Originally posted by fletchgirl

centuries? wow... that's a long time.
:D

Exactly. Ok, I meant to say decades. :)

This is not a question of war or peace... there's already war... not doing anything would not make it peaceful. people seem to be saying, we shouldn't cause trouble. There's already trouble.

In Iraq, no doubt. But you need to zoom out and think about the global scale.. No question of war or peace? The US is launching a full scale preventive (!) offensive on another sovereign state protected by the same rights they themselves are with close to no international backing, in utter violation of the Constitution and international law, driven by very questionable motives and you say there's no question? :confused: Think of the consequences.

Originally said by dumb hippie fuck Abraham Lincoln
Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If today he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him, "I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."

The provision of the Constitution giving the war making power to Congress was dictated, as I understand it, by the following reasons: kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object. This our Constitutional Convention understood to be the most oppressive of all kingly oppressions, and they resolved to so frame the Constitution that no one man should hold the power of bringing this oppression upon us. But your view destroys the whole matter, and places our President where kings have always stood.

[el coro]

conor: now that's just silly. i'm not gonna reroute myself or try to talk to some radical anti war asshole! i have a LIFE. i am too busy trying to get better as a professional artist, i dont have time to try to change the world. also, of course i think people actively serving in the military have a more valid opinion. THEY are the ones being shipped off to a strange country to fight in a war, so i think they are entitled a bit more to their opinions, respectively. remember, all you have to do is turn off the tv, these guys will be living it. i dont think that gives them a higher form of citizenship, but i do have more respect for them than i do for people who's lives aren't gonna be radically changed from this. now i understand the other side, but i simply dont agree with it. the difference is that i dont go out and inconvienence innocent people to try to force my views on them. i keep them quietly to myself, which is more than i can say for the 100,000 people blocking traffic down the street from my home. i understand your point, in a idealstic mister rogers kind of way, but i feel your comments were thrown out there just to be argumentative, and lack realistic merit. my two cents-c36

[sparth]

conor: very interesting comments about the internal american changes.
however, concerning the middle east: i totally disagree with you, as the european and american expansions have always been done on and through the middle east. not a single country or territory from this area has ever been left free of occupation until the sixties. same for africa.
see, when i was talking about colony, i was not talking about any definite period, i was refering to colonialism as a general attitude that occidentals have towards the oil producing countries. true, colonized countries were slowly given back to their original occupants, but the spirit, the attitude, remained very vigorous.
during the 19th century as well as beginning of 20th, the struggle, or let's say rush, between england and france, in order to possess maghreb countries was very fierce. just an example that explains today's situation.

silent Insanity: i had developed my previous message about the palestinian israelian conflict in order to avoid seeing closed minds repeating the same clichés like the one you have written. read more about the camp david agreements, at the end of the seventies, and you'll understand why the actual situation is leading both sides to crazyness.
look at it this way: if you put your foot on a ballon filled with air, and if you slowly press the thing, there's a moment during which it is going to explode. need i say more?

el coro: without refering to any lousy hippie attitude or way of life, i thought art was a way to escape from falling into any mainstream currents. i thought artist were the ones who tried to understand things that weren't that evident or obvious?
you still can try to be an even better artist, and at the same time try to save the world mate. :D

franz: nice comments too.
as you stated. the despicable aspect of the actual conflict is not about america gaining power through world economy. usa, is by far the leading economic power, where people are able to convert themselves to more than one job, where people aren't closed to the fact of moving, and by advantages given to them by governments. this is where america should be proud. it's such a success.
the despicable fact is that the actual bush administration as chosen war to spread american interests. it's the main reason why a large majority of the world is not following this action.

btw, bush has decided to forget about the second UN resolution, not only because of the french and russian vetoes, but also because the latest evaluation was supposed to be 4 countries for the war, on a total of 15 countries from the actual UN council. bush did everything he could, but he admitted that such a vote would have been a major diplomatic catastrophy. however, it may change in the last minutes, until monday night i think.

[conor]

thank you el coro and sparth for the responses

el coro: clearly if your problem with these 'hippies' is not so serious that you wouldn’t even consider even asking them to move, then why complain about to so? a phone call to find out who the leader is and to get out of your car/public transportation ask them would only take twenty to a half an hour. I’m sure some how you could take that much time out, as you surely must spend at least as much time browsing this forum per week.
as to military giving higher (not technically, just connotatively) citizenship, I did not disagree if you notice. all I was doing is referencing a book I remembered as I was reading your post.
also, quietly keeping your opinions to yourself doesn't really do anything for the system, other than give it consent. your actions are perfectly appropriate for someone who agrees with what the government is doing. however, for someone who disagrees, they need to be much more vocal as they are trying to change something that has already gained its momentum(through people like yourself). I would not believe you would be quite so quiet if America passed some law which declared artistry an illegal profession. unlikely I know, but it illustrates the point.
lastly, if you would, could you please say why my comments are argumentative and lack realistic merit. If by argumentative you meant challenge your opinions then yes, as that is what message boards are for, discussion. However, my design was not to infuriate. as to lacking realistic merit, how? oh and I am too young to know who mister rogers is, could you explain? thanks

sparth: I'm sorry I forgot to mention last night that with the use of oil as a fuel the middle east has become a target. I also misinterpreted your usage of colony. I thought you meant the settlement British type, rather than economical sphere of influence type.
my mistake.

[silent Insanity]

Sparth ive read the camp david acord which has more to do with the isreali egyptian relations and only sets forth how the isreali palistinian negotiations will be conducted. I dont believe that is the cause of the conflict. Targeting civilians doesnt help their cause. While I understand why the palistinians would be so angry it does not justify what they are doing. (If i were them ide be pissed)

[silent Insanity]

El coro has the right to be pissed off he also has the right to complaign. Why should he be nice or have to tolerate them when their being jerks? Yes he enjoys his freedom and hes using them to voice his opinions thats not foolishness.

Sorry for posting two replys.

[mcotie]

I found this in the editorial section of the paper today: Take this test if you will. you can post your answers or answer them quietly. For those of you that don't have any clue, this is your moment to do a little research and get with current events.

"Q1: Which country has most recently captured, tortured and killed Kurds from Northern Iraq?

Q2: Which country is preparing to extend its military presence in northern Iraq in order to subdue the Kurdish population and prevent the creation of an independent Kurdish state?

Q3: Which country is being offered a $15 Billion bribe and certain political considerations to allow it to deal with its Kurdish "problem"

Q4: Which country has stated that the liberation and protection of the Kurds in northern Iraq is one of its reasons for invading Iraq?

Extra credit: Why?"

Larry Gwaltney, Ft.Worth


1+3=6

[sparth]

silent Insanity: righty. palestinian have done a desperate choice. it shows the high level of anger and sectarism they were brought into.
i just think it is so important, on that matter, to escape from the "good and the bad" theory. but terrorism remains a threat that has to be eradicated, that's a sure fact.

conor: no problemo, i could have given more details myself.

mcmitch: hehe, a growing matter for this conflict indeed. some even say that americans may have to stop """insert mitch's secret country here"""doing any excessive invasion, if they go too far. by military means, if necessary.

[-W.-]

"...There is no decent place to stand
In a massacre;..."

[KayCustomz]

I thought artost don't care much about this stuff, cuase I don't.

[Vader]

Maybe you should start up a thread where people can express their opions on war through pictures:)

[Oblio]

long debate and lovely people - i would make a country with you guys. :D
Well.. i'm not much of an informed man - usualy i live by the rule - if it's important i'll find out about it.
I don't have time for news paper and TV nor i trust any of them (except maybe www.eurogamer.net when it cames to games :D).
I worked in media (heck i had my own magazine) and i know how things are.
Let me tell you a bit of my stupid POV.
I come from a country that was rulled by comunists for about 50 years. My father was 6 years in prisson for political issues - he yelled that the Americans will came and save us from the comunists. I will not describe what he has been trough for a few reasons - you would NOT believe me AND i don't know all the details (since he doesn't talk about it - all i know is from other who have been in easier situations if i can say so).


Nevermind - i will try to cover the issuews here just globaly.
I know (or i can easily imagine) how Saddam is rulling that country.
I'll say - Anything to remove him will pay.
I say - NEVER A WAR HAS SOLVED ANYTHING!
So.. war - is NOT an option.
But i'll tell you what comes next:
Demostrations of Peace have ALWAYS existed - before WWI or WWII - the war took place.
It's going to happen again. And there is NOTHING we can do.

A freind said to me - if you want to clean up a room - first you must ENTER the room - i'm not into politics - i can't do shit.

So.. i'll tell you how i live - here - new goverments try to rule - as everywhere - seeking to make money - i have only adapted and i follow only one rule - I will prevail! - ME!
If there is war - i will adapt.
If there is the end of the wold - i will adapt.

You can not change a thing - go into the politics and TRY to change it - you will see that you can not move a finger without horrible compromises. Since the ones in the politics are WELL adapted. Do you get me?

I am worried about America - espec after 911 - i see how the gov. is fooling the US people with the same tools the comunist were "fooling" us.
I can spot the manipulation tools by a mile.
i am horified but.. i will adapt.
I am sorry for mitch.
I am sorry for . a lot of people.
As for Israel... i have a good jew friend who said this : An antisemite is a person who hates the jews MORE then one should!
My friend is a great university professor - has tons of phisics books published - he's not a joke. I have a lot of jewish friends - but what they do is wrong.
And surely - it will turn AGAIN against them. And .. i'm sorry

Thank you for all the posts here. CA rules again...
Unfortunately... without much efect other then the feeling it gives me: i have met great people here! Thx.

Oblio

[otis]

I dont understand it:

You have Iraq:

Defies U.N Resolutions for 12 years, has history of using biochemical weapons on it's people(the Kurds) , harbors terrorists, Invaded and took over Quwait,


You have U.S.

Has a huge history of saving nations in past World wars and conflicts, offers freedom, opportunity, and exile for millions of people around the world, NEVER invaded to conquer another nation, has history of using force WHEN necessary,
allows freedom to protest, sends medical Aid, food, and BILLIONS of US dollars around the world to help 3rd world nations. No other nation on this PLANET gives as much as the U.S.!

Now who the fuck's side are you on???!! I don't get how people think that if there is a "Slim chance for peace" we should wait around for it forever...or at least until Iraq and the rest of the evil in the world is nuclear? WTF is wrong with everyone??? Sadamm isn't stupid, he knows how naive the world community is! HE WILL NOT STEP DOWN, HE WILL NOT DISARM, HE WILL DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO BUY TIME...TIME TO TURN THE WORLD AGAINST THE USA.

SO....

STOP TRYING TO EVEN COMPARE IRAQ TO THE U.S.!!!! PEOPLE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, THAT WHEN THERE IS A CONFLICT, LAWS , RESOLUTIONS, AND WORDS DON'T DO SHIT! USA HAS BEEN WASTING IT'S TIME WITH THE U.N FOR for THE PAST DECADE....THE U.N. JUST LIKE THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, IS NOTHING MORE THAN THE UGLIEST FORM OF BUERCRATIC,POLITICAL, B.S. NOTHING EVER GETS DONE IN THE U.N. WHY DO SO MANY IGNORANT PEOPLE THINK THAT THE U.N EVER WORKED??? TELL ME WHAT IT HAS EVER ACCOMPLISHED WITHOUT THE HELP OF THE U.S!!? (besides philanthropies and food drives)

Sorry for getting so fired up, but I've had CNN on all day, and I'm sick of hearing the same Bullshit being relayed over the news from Saddam, protesters, Clinton administrators, and evertyone else on the band wagon to attack Bush or the U.S.

Dam, if the U.S was not here we'd all be stuck in a really fucked up world! So have some faith, and it's about time the world showed some repect and faith in the U.S.A ..we are not a fucking Facist, dictator, communist, regeim!!!! NEVER HAVE BEEN AND NEVER WILL BE!

DONT GET CAUGHT UP IN THE ANTI US REHTORIC!

[stalecracker]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1871037.jpg

[stalecracker]

Dennis Miller:
Here are 10 things to consider when voicing an opinion
on this important issue:

1) Out of President Bush and Saddam Hussein.....
Hussein is the bad guy.

2) If you have faith in the United Nations to do the right
thing, keep this in mind -- they have Libya heading
the Committee on Human Rights and Iraq heading
the Global Disarmament Committee. Do your own
math here.

3) If you use Google Search and type in "French Military
Victories," your reply will be "Did you mean French
military defeats?"

4) If your only anti-war slogan is "No war for oil," sue
your school district for allowing you to slip through
the cracks and robbing you of the education you
deserve.

5) Saddam and Bin Laden will not seek United Nations
approval before they try to kill us.

6) Despite common belief, Martin Sheen is not the
President he only plays one on TV.

7) Even if you are anti-war, you are still an 'infidel' and
Bin Laden wants you dead too.

8) If you believe in a "vast right-wing conspiracy" but not
in the danger that Hussein poses, quit hanging out
with the Dell computer dude.

9) We are not trying to liberate them.

10) Whether you are for military action or against it, our
young men and women overseas are fighting for us
to defend our right to speak out --

We all need to support them without reservation.

I hope this helps.

[otis]

LOL!!!

Now I wonder why the other side can't come up with somthing as funny???? TRUTH HURTS !!!! And how sweet it is!!

[davi]

Death
Depression
Tears
Blood
Stolen fathers
Suffering
Lives Broken

This is not a fucking topic we need to be laughing about.
You may think i need to lighten up, but tell that to the familys who have lost.

I'm tempted to shut this thread but i don't want to be viewed as a 'forum nazi'. Hopefully you understand where i am coming from and will straighten up your remarks.

[stalecracker]

Coming from a family that has fought in the Vietnam war, WWII, and the Good Ol' Civil War (P.S. I am the first "non-warrior" in the blood line...) I "understand" completely the concept of war, Davi. AND looking at my last to posts they consisted of

1) a humerous, tongue-in-check comment on a countries political standing.
(God KNOWS you never hear that about the US or the President, Especially in the forums... *please*)

2) a political commentary by a celebrity.

Now the latter may be a little "out of place" but... wait a minute... lesse here, Dixie Chicks, Martin Sheen, Terry Gilliam, Danny Glover, Oliver Stone, and more can talk out AGAINST the war but I can't post a comment by a "pro" war celebrity without the "Hey, War is serious" rhetoric and "I should shut this thread down" B.S.
I know, you know and WE know WAR is no joke. But if you can't laugh at a time like this, even a little... well, you have a short life ahead of you as you'll probably keel over from a stress induced heart attack.

Besides... last time I checked, the Lounge was to be a bastion of FREE discourse.

Keep it out of the art threads...

I did.

[otis]

not to sound harsh , Davi, (and i appreciate all your work here on these forums, )but life is not perfect. We are not laughing at death and war. If you avoid everything in life because you fear:
Death
Depression
Tears
Blood
Stolen fathers
Suffering
Lives Broken

you will soon learn that the war will come to you.

Life isn't perfect, and no matter how scary situations get, it is always worth fighting for. Now it sounds like you lost someone close in a war. Our soldiers who fight in wars do it to protect us, so that we may live freely. You should be greatful for this. God knows I am. So, my point is, life is precious, and evil is out there, but if we don't fight for what is right, evil will take everything we know and love.

If we continue to live in this "fairytale" mentality that IT will just go away, we will all lose. Nobody wants war Davi.

[sparth]

if you want to have a good laugh, go to eatpoo's toilets, you'll have tons of fun and forget about self control. but don't spoil that area which remained clear of any controversial materials until now.

[stalecracker]

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4145

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4259

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4290

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4226

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4182

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3773


So that's 6 threads that could be considered "contreversial" in nature contained within the Lounge. So that renders a portion of your statement moot. I will continue to discuss and crack jokes and be serious or whatever... here, at Conceptart.org (as the left wingers like to say) because it's my right.

Unless I'm banned for some reason.

Remember, it's a FORUM for discussion not a love it or leave it rally.

[sparth]

the interesting fact about this particular thread until now, is that most of the point of views developed were rich and mature. it was exactly why i participated too.

didn't want to sound agressive or something.
i just feel the interests suddenly disappeared compared to the first subject you previously developed.

i'm out now
good continuation :D

[JoshuaTheJames]

Sparth-

Thanks for all the posts on the war. They have been very informative. I always been frustrated when people just hate on the middle east without really understanding it. I mean, one cannot just argue "they're evil" I myself had no real insight into what the middle east was about concerning these issues, but your posts were very helpful to understand a few of the reasons behind things.



I know little of the real facts and I will never condone terrorism. But strangely I will always sympathize with the apposing side. Knowing that if I could put myself in their position I just may feel their pain. (I am speaking of the people as a whole not solely their leaders.) I would believe a group of people are perhaps ignorant and or impressionable before I will ever believe they are evil.

thank you Everyone! for your insight...

-Joshua

enough of the mushy stuff... ok time to leave with some mindless comedy... :D

a quote frome Solid Snake in MGS in which I will direct toward Saddam...

"Some people just need killin." -S.Snake

not that I believe it ...its just kinda funny... ahh where's Solid Snake when you need him?

http://www.konamijpn.com/products/metalgear/gif/Snake_chara.jpg
"MMMeerrryll!!"

[stalecracker]

Sparth, we'll have to agree to disagree about the "level of maturity" in a good portion of the posts. I posted what I posted recently, the first one, because I thought it a humerous visual image and the second because Dennis Miller, although being slightly tongue-in-cheek, hit the nail on the head with the list.
In my opinion.

[JoshuaTheJames]

stalecracker-

great thread...

-Joshua

[silent Insanity]

Hey what are your guys view on total isolationism for the US?(excluding cia activities.)

[Coma]

It has begun.

Godspeed.

[oglzogl]

Well, it seems we are going to war. While it is something I don't think is necissary myself, it appears that is the course we will take.

While I understand what people are saying about the UN being ineffectual I have to wonder why this administration is so determined to undermine it's international legitimacy and ruin international relationships that had only made us stronger.

I'd guess that most people are supporting this war with Iraq because of what happened with 9/11. In my mind, that event, while tragic, brought the US and the world together. But rather than reinforcing that new world bond, the Bush administration has confused the publics mind into beliving there is some link between Al Qaeda and Iraq when there is just no real evidence to support that. Bin Laden himself (shithead that he is) has denounced Saddam and called him a bad muslim. So the link is what again? All this will end up doing is give the terrorists one more reason to hate us.

Why has Bush not been able to convince more of the world of this "imminent" threat? Why does Bush take us down a road that tells the rest of the world that his interests outweigh the world's interests?

Still, we are going... and while we are there, I will support the soldiers who fight there.

It has been suggested that by not supporting Bush you don't support America. I would argue the complete opposite, I feel it is our civic duty to question the government. "For the people, by the people." If you follow the government blindly and never question what they do, you give them power that they do not deserve. That doesn't mean that your conclussions cannot match theirs, it just means that you should approach everything with open eyes and make up your own mind... and give everybody else the same right without questioning their patriotism.

It has also been asked why, here at conceptart.org, we even need to be discussing these topics. To my mind, a huge part of what art does is allow us to better understand the world that we live in. It is not just about making pretty pictures, it is about understanding the psycology of the people and understanding the events that shaped the time.

God bless America and may our troops come back safely!

[mcotie]

Here's some history for you. This was back in '95 in Saudi Arabia. I'm sure I'll get the chance to do something like this again, but hopefully I won't have a reporter doing a crappy job on the interview. Damn, I sound like a dork in this.

http://www.mcotie.com/newimages/wotn.jpg

Otis I think the source of your aggression is watching too much CNN. That shit'll drive you insane. I can feel your anger bro. I'm pissed too. I might lose my gig with Fantasy Flight Games and Wizards of the Coast this spring. (damn, im a greedy bastard)

I think we need to discuss this stuff from all points of view, humor, anger and all. conceptart is still cool, and I think the best place to discuss this stuff.

Mitch

[silent Insanity]

So if you dont see it its not illegal? i can say safely that saddam is a psycho he doesnt care about what the UN orders him to do, if he did he wouldnt even have had the samoud missles that he destroyed. just think you have a project due your teacher gives you a deadline, when do you finish the project? at the last minute right? if you give somone forever to do their homework when will they do it? never. the message saddam is getting from the UN is that he has no deadline due to the fact that the UN is to scared to get their hands dirty.

About the link with alqeada they dont have to have a past link they dont have to like each other if they hate america enough everything will fall into place.

how long has it been since the gulf war? do you really think saddam being the power maniac that he is wouldnt build chemical wepons and such? if you dont think so your fooling yourself. Who do you think saddam hates the most, hes used wepons on his own people hes probably drooling at the notion of nuking one of our citys.

in the worlds ignorant eyes were a big bully, everyone loves to hate us. we give so much and were hated for it. im tired of it.
Stalecracker- i like your dennis miller post especially #4

[Oblio]

i had a talk with my father last night - he's 72 and.. knows a little about stuff :D
I can only say that i have a better picture now... War is definitely bad - but Saddam - is worst!
FUCK HIM!

Oblio

[Orban]

Both Saddam and war are bad.
Saddam is more or less what a Demon can be on earth. Like Pinochet, Hitler, Franco, Staline...
BUT - here we have a new case. Hitler want to rule the world by all mean - the US react. Only for that... and not for the genocide part of is administration.
Franco has rules his country, no one has done a shit about him.
Pinochet too... supported by the american? uhmm? He hasn't been judge last time we can! Why?
What I want to say is that Saddam is not the only Evil Man on this fucking earth. So why him? Why not Korea?(who has some really odd weapon... we don't need to send inspector, they state it themselve).
The N.U are created for this kind of case after WW2. It work well for the past but now that the US has it agains't him, they're ready to destroyed it - fuck them too. What's the interest to create a thing like that and after... forgetting it to do what they want?? Everyone know that if they attack the Irak, their not totally in their right(UK know that... morality alone is not the law - everyone has his morality ya know?)
I think too about the people who will die. Fighter, civilian... each lives who will be lost... to defend what?
One thing I don't like now is what the US tried to do now, trying to convince people that this war is against terrorism - it is not. For me it just show us that there's no good reason for this war, it's such a pity to say thing like that.
Lot of reason to be against war - lot of reason to be for war(Saddam by itself is nearly a sufficient reason) :(
I'm not against people from America, I'm agains't another war - hasn't the past teach us something? Do we have forgotten what war is?
For now, for me, diplomatic solution can be find. I know it's off, I'm ashamed by that... but now I've no choice but to adapt. I hope I'm wrong, that it's not going to be the monstruosity I think, that the people from Irak will not go into civil war against the US, that...

[Erik]

Democracy simply is not what it used to be...

[stalecracker]

I'm curious... What did exactly did Democracy "used" to be?

[stalecracker]

In response to Orban-

You have some good points BUT (there's always a but, isn't there?)

The Hitler angle- Do you HONESTLY think that Hitler could have neutralized by ... Diplomacy? As far as the Genocide, horrible as it was AND is... it is not, and to my knowledge never has been, US policy to storm into ever case of Human Rights Violations and "set it right" The German people as a whole could have stopped the Genocide. How? When the Shock Troops come for your life long friend Chaim and his family... you speak out. You may get killed you may not. EVERY thing I have EVER read shows that the mass populace of Germany did very little to stop him.

The ultimate reason the U.S. steps into to most situations is when our own shores are threatened. Franco and Pinochet didn't offer up a direct threat to the U.S. Saddam, right now, does.

ANd Korea? Do you think if N. Korea starts preping to lob a nuke at us that China won't have something to say? China may not see eye to eye with the US but we have a healthy respect for one another. The last thing China wants is N. Korea getting to cocky. God help N. Korea if the U.S. AND China decide to whip it's ass. Behind the scenes, China is watching them (N. Korea) closely. I imagine the U.S. would support a China resolution to "stop" them. I imagine China would support us in that endeavour as well.

The U.N.? Not parrotting our President, has become impotent. It was FOUNDED to keep future Hitlers from happening... Count how many times they have not. They are a bunch of bloated old men/women who have ZERO power in the world. The Blueberry Army, I mean U.N. Peacekeepers are not very effective.

Sometimes War is the ONLY option.

[Erik]

A system in which people use facts to base opinions and arguments on. A system where people of different opinion will have a debate in order to convince each other. This as opposed to a commerce-driven puppet play using (and owning!) the media to force one side of the argument through everybody's subconscious throats... A system where it would not be possible that decisions of this magnitude were taken while large parts of the voting population are opposed to it -- but i agree. This utopia of reason has never been, and will never be. Welcome to the global chimp-colony.

Sorry about my depressed state.

In order not to get flamed: i understand why the war is necessary, since the resolution 1441 did state that military means could be used. I think the security counsel was naive if they believed that the US would not try to get in that position though. You cannot threathen to make war and then be reluctant to act out the threat. But i cannot understand the way the US, Europe, UK, etc. act the whole play out. And i can even less understand that there is so little room for true journalism, trying to uncover the roots at this conflict... the scale of propagandism (not just in the US!) published and the shallowness of the coverage are simply astounding.

These things make me doubt about the viability of democracy in the long (or not so long) term, and in the survival of the human race. Rationalism i haven't believed in in a long time.

I think the real threat here (and the root of this conflict) is the unchecked commercialism, the hunting for stock-exchange percentage points and the relocation of the power to where the money is. Soon the true rulers of the planet (arms dealers, oil magnates, media tycoons ...) will not even bother to keep up the appearance of democracy.

I feel like i'm watching beginnings the fall of the Roman empire all over again and i hope that enlightened persons will stand up to show the world once more that war is not the answer, and to guide us of the track to new middle ages...

Well. I think i'm off to some distant planet now to recover. Where's my piece of paper?

(Sorry that i didn't answer the question though.)

[otis]

Yes, CNN is as much of a joke as the U.N., and about the other dictators out there in the world...I know we can't get them all, and I don't know enough about Iraq, and the middle east to draw a conclusion "WHY Iraq first" except for the fact that the U.N> has writen somthing like 18 resolutions on the country and Iraq just scoffs at all of them "pissing" on the world community(U.N.) And if we let him get away, or continue to let him play with these resolutions, then what is the point of the U.N.???

About the U.N. :

A nice and "warmfuzzy" concept.
But in reality completely unaffective for two reasons.
1.The world knows the U.N. can't and won't EVER solve a conflict.
2. The USA contributes more money, military, and resources to the U.N. than any other country, does the dirty work for it, but has no REAL Authority on the court.

It IS NOT A REFLECTION OF WORLD OPINION!!! Nobody cared about the U.N. in last decade!!! What has the U.N. ever accomplished for the world community???? Cosovo was a failure that the U.S. had to end up dealing with, Somalia wasa failure that the U.S. TRIED to deal with, and most memorable of all was the Congo massacre the the U.N. just sat back and ALLOWED to happen. The list goes on and on. It is just another political, beuracratic, backstabbing board where sick dictators can sit on a board with real world leaders, positioning themselves to get more political power for their own country. It's politics people!!!!
Res. 1441 is a PERFECT example of how useles it is. 1441 was a UNANIMUS (sp?) decision for Iraq to COMPLETLEY DISARM or face the CONSEQUENCES. YES, France even voted for this resolution!! But even they didn't think it would have gone this far!!! When Saddam continued to defy the U.N. France realized they had to change their stance. Now if a rotten little man like Saddam can defy these resolutions, influence a major country like France HOW PATHETIC IS THAT???!!

[stalecracker]

Well said, Otis.

[Erik]

... :eek:

[Orban]

I don't think an Hitler could be defeated by diplomacy. The point in my argument is that if there's no economics interest in it, I will have speak dutch and not french now... Jewish genocide has never been a reason to enter in war at this time(since America doesn't know about it... officially).
I know that the Iraki people will not throw away Saddam like that, they can't... the chain are powerfull for them :(
My question here is why Irak - there's another country where people need help against some dictator, but in most case America help them - as they have help Saddam too(maybe you have forget? CIA has learn to Ben Laden what he do now too... erhmm)
Russia has try in the past to dominate country to give them a better chance(communism is not really a great deal but hell, people has different opinion hey :)) - we all know what have happen next(remember Afghanistan? Another country with the CIA help... amusing))

Stalecracker : Pinochet can have been judged. International justice send him back to his country!

U.N isn't a reality anymore I think - the US will destroy it by bypassing it. Sweet dream...
By the way, an Army who can't fight(like the U.N Peacemaker) is ridiculous - I've never understand why it is this way.

Erik : yeah, we have seen what commerce and money driven can do - how each side has try to buy the 6 country... disgusting. Seem that it have been a war between money and the reason against war. I don't think economical pressure are a moral way to spread his idea :D

Otis : for what I know, a majority of people in most country are against war. So the U.N was a reflection of world opinion... Not to speak about the situation of the UK now, where the government can be dismissed.
And erhmm, no one has the right to lead the U.N. It's why vote are for - so the people can express their opinion, so we are not ruled by one(remember the Ring to rules them all hey? ;))

Sometimes war is the only option, yeah. But this time I don't feel it's the only option for now. Nobody cares 10 years ago about the Irak after its defeat - so why now thinking about attacking them? We can let them 2 month to disarm.
If you want that Saddam go away, erhmm, Bush Jr has been elected by a strange way... If Al Gore has been the president, we will not have been in this situation ;)

[stalecracker]

Orban-

The conditon for the cease-fire of the Gulf War was Saddam DISARMING Iraq. Now 12 years later, 12 YEARS, do you honestly think 2 more months will matter? AND the WHOLE point of the U.N. weapons inspectors was to inspect the weapons that Iraq has. Not search for them. If Hussein has no massive chem and bio warfare apparatus... why is he threatening to use it against the coalition forces?!? How can he USE what he vehemently DENIES he has? He is a liar and a shitty excuse for a human. The reason we are focusing on him now has everything to do with 9/11.

How?

Simple-
Saddam invades the sovreign nation of Kuwait. Now Iraq has one of the worlds largest supplies of Oil. Kuwauit does too. (Imagine a world where the coast to move yourself, your family and your business is practically impossible due to the COST.) Compound that with the fact that he is INVADING a country to posses it, NOT to liberate it or protect it. Throw in that he, factually, rapes and brutalizes his own people. Did the U.S. sanctions against Saddam kill people through starvation or did the fact that Saddam stockpiled the Food for Oil payments and dole it out a horrifying trickle.? So the Coalition of NATIONS swoops in and summarily whips his ass.
Instead of killing him. WE, the U.S., opt to abide by the U.N. mandate and leave him in power.

NOW- flash forward 9 or so years. In that time, Saddam lies, threatens, causes shit... CLinton, to his credit deals with it on a surface level, keeping Saddam in check. But then 9/11 happens. Some punk ass MF'ers decide to "cripple" the U.S. and fly planes into various locations and kill people. WITHOUT provocation. (American foreign policy... boo hoo. You can say what you like but the U.S. DOES NOT go on killing sprees, for shits and giggles OR God) So what do we do? We announce to the world that the rules, our rules, have changed. For the most part... the world agreed. Except for some "misguided souls" aptly named the axis of evil (and a few not included therein). We set out on a course to say, simply rule how you like, do what you want but do NOT mess with, not just the U.S., but the rest of the civilized world. If you do, we will be watching... and we will react. \

First things first. Who harbored and sheltered Al Queda? The Taliban. Proof in the pudding was the ridiculous charade their leaders went through trying to say they had no knowledge of Al Queda in their country but we know where they are and we might tell you if the price is right. If you are not with us you are, by default, against us. If you harbor terrorists then we will deal with you as such. Where is the Taliban now?

Next- who hates us enough and could possibly develop weapons to seriously cripple us down the road? Saddam...

You know where that is going. He did not succeed then he won't now. The only difference is that his he and his demented sons, oopay and hissyfit will probably die.

AND if Gore was president, I can guarentee you we would be in a world of hurt right now. Imagine if 9/11 had happened on Clintons watch. Unless he was planning to defend a blow job while on the phone discussing the placement of our TROOPS... we would have reacted barely...

if at all.

[otis]

Orban,

Um,, no one wants war...so that is in no way a valid argument.
2nd majority rule means mob rule-that is democracy in the purest sense.

See over here in the U.S. majority is not what rules this country and nor should it. We are a republic democracy..kinda a mix match of the two.
We have check and balances, that's how Bush won. Electoral college is there for a reason!

If the world was ruled by majority we would have chaos, nothing would ever be agreed upon, nothing would EVER get done!
Mob rule is NOT ALWAYS RIGHT!

So how do you resolve the worthless U.N.???? If the USA was not in it they wouldn't even be able to afford one White truck or toy tank! Who do you think gives the U.N. any validty in the first place????
Who do think goes in every time to enforce the useless resolutions??? Shit politics are ugly, and when you bring it under one roof with nations u get the U.N.

AND how do YOU know for a FACT that majority of people in all the countries are not for removing Saddam???The numbers of people protesting around the wolrd don't even ad up to a fraction of the population in the US alone! They get alot of press, but CONFLICT make a hell of a story! Shit, if all the countries would stand behind 1441 and nobody would be protesting, I think that MIGHT get Saddam's attention. But since we are not supporting eachother, he's not going to just walk out on his own! He's using us against eachother..can't you see?? At least Bush is standing up to him.

AND the UK gov't is not being dismissed!!!! Tony Blair, Churchill, Thatcher...Prime ministers are supposed to be leaders!!! Majority rule does not apply to them either! DO YOU WANT MOB RULE OR SOMTHING?????

WTF are you talking about that no one leads the U.N>??? New Guiney (sp) leads the U.N. right now. It has a rotating policy...so some day Iraq or Pakistan can lead the U.N.! Sound good to you?

I personally think the U.N. should be obsolved just like the League of Nations was. It's a nice concept that we could have an group of nations working together for a good cause...but that is not REALITY..all we get is another form of slimy politics, misdirection, all under the guise of "WE ARE THE WORLD"

Just remmeber, that Mob rule is no way to make a decision or a form a gov't. Don't defend it, don't ask for it! I hope that this isn't how you make up your mind in life.

[franz]

You know that a thread has gone bad when the number of exclamation marks and frequency of caps lock shouting start outweighing the arguments.. :( I'm out

[Goo]

a note about the UN....

anyone remember the league of nations? now the UN is going down the same road as the league of nations... if the world's most powerful nation does not agree with the rest of the world, than whats the use of of an organisation like UN? no disrespect meant, war seems inevitable now, but the reason most people dont want a war is because of the casualties that will happen, iraqi and american. you know, after the war, the credibility of the UN would have taken a severe beating.....

another point, the fear at the end of the war is not about iraq's missile capabilities, but of how the iraqis are going to react to their new found freedom. look at afghanistan now....

btw.....congratulations mcotie..:chug:

[Orban]

Otis,
Last time i've read the constituion of my country, the minister are here to represent the idea of people and to defend their opinion. So... it's what it does for now.(I'm not from France)

Minister are not out of the law. They do the law, but they must respect themselve their law for me. As they must respect the people from their country.

New Guiney lead the U.N, but their are not more powerfull than any other state. If a rotation of leader exist, there must be a reason(to evitate that a country take the power for himself?)

Suisse work fairly well by referendum for big things, just to remember that this system exist and can be viable.

but here we do not speak about the war but how the world should work(erhmm, if he could simply work a bit by now...)

stalecracker,
Ok. So within the last 10 year, no one has a fuck to do with the Irak and now, nearly 2 year after 911 Bush awake and decide to disarm Irak. Ok.

What the hell as Irak to do with 911? As stated before, Ben Laden hate Hussein and Hussein hate Ben Laddam. It smell practical excuse to manipulate an american opinion not too sure about what Bush do... it suck.

So now I dunnot understand why now, and why not before - 911 is not a valid excuse. And why not wait 1 month more? We're all have been waiting for 10 years... We should have disarm Irak then! All together.

I think we all remember the horror of 911. But it do not give the right to the US to go in war against every nation that displease them. Nor it doesn't give the right to your government to cut off the right of freedom of speach and so on. It's a tragedy, but here it hasn't a shit to do again in here! USA are not the only nation in the world, you're not alone and we are not slave to us, we have the right to not agree with you. Speak about the 911 when you search after Al Qeda, Ben Laden...

Afghanistan is not the same thing as Irak for now. Afghanistan deal with terrorist. By a side effect, you have free the country of Taliban, good thing. But it's just a side effect. As allways. Here, in Irak Bush try to justify his attack by the side effect... but :
Now Iraq has one of the worlds largest supplies of Oil.
Uhmm, one point that's interesting here. And it's not me that speak about it... We can talk too about the tactical position of Irak, and some thing like that. Lot of interest to do war - but no argument that can be used in a public debate I think. It's one thing I don't like in this war, the hidden reason for or against it. No one told us the truth.

And remember : what I don't like in the US is the actual government. I don't like mine too... but not for the same reason :). It's our right to all of us to not agree with what our government do or say, it's our right to think about what he do.

Last time I answer... I don't think one will change his mind(neither me nor you), and after all... it will not change the world the way we want :( See you later to speak about drawing! :)

[Erik]

Has anyone of you ever watched closely what happens if you start poking a stick in a hornet's nest?

No, you haven't, because you want to be far far away if they strike back!

I wonder how far 'far away' will need to be...

To speak with the words of Salvor Hardin (Foundation trilogy, by Isaac Asimov) : 'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'.

It's not about this war. It's about one billion angry people that are poor and uneducated and that suddenly will find out that if they all rally for one cause (say abusing the Islam for the purpose) they can get a lot done, everybody is afraid of them and they don't have to hold up their hand, they can reach out and take what they want... The common enemy is the easiest way to get divided people to rally for a cause. The US is quickly adopting that position in name of the western world. So much for the 'divide and conquer' tactics that would have kept the threat minimal.

This war will not be over soon, it has started 100 years ago and will continue until the last drop of oil is extracted out of middle-eastern soil.

I do think that economics would be able to stop this war: not by applying pressure but by creating opportunity. If a nations roots lie in unchecked commercialism, that is that nation's most effective weapon. Use it to rid the discontented from the root of their problem. Feed them, clothe them, educate them. Lo and behold: they are no loger discontented but spend their days buying microwaves, fridges and watching movies (btw for which concept art would be needed). Why should they make any trouble? This proces would take maybe fifteen years but it works. And it is good for the economy. As the Romans knew: bread and play (don't know the proper english translation) is all that is needed to subdue the masses. Everything is better than keeping everybody blanketed under senseless and factless fear, imposed by the feodal media.

PS. Orban: who said: 'every nation will have the government it deserves' ? :-) I'm not happy with my government either: they want to go to war whilst they are actually no longer elected!
E.

[Vader]

There was a mass protest at school and most of the school were against the war, i wish blair would listen to his people.
I think going to war is to harsh there was still hope in democracy.

[otis]

You guys are sounding like you are brainwashed???!!!
Orban, you actually feel like you are "slaves" to the USA???
WTF?!!
We are a great, huge, wealthy country that works hard and will fight hard to preserve it's way of life. There has never been a county in the history of the world that offered so much freedom and opportunity to people. Americans are not a race of people, it a whole mess of different people from all over the world. So stop this rehtoric about US being some "Evil empire". You sound just as bad as Bin Laden when you start with this jelouse envy and fear.
Granted no gov't is perfect, and no gov't will ever be perfect. But our founding fathers put together a solid system. Now I agree with you that it starts to get scary when our congress tries to twist and change the constitiution, which the Demorats have been trying to do. But what Bush is doing is completely legit since he has already gotten permission from congress.

People will always protest over war...I agree NOBODY wants war!!! Maybe if the U.S was never involved with the U.N. we would not be attacking Saddam tommorow. But I bet you that the world community would be begging us to help them deal with him eventualy!

Erik: 'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'.
You must then believe that all the soldiers that died in WW2
to keep your ass free from Facism, communism, and opression must have been incompetent. I agree that violence is a last refuge, for the brave...but the first action of the weak. ..the U.S was told to work with the usless nations(U.N.) and they did. Now it's time to enforce.

Are you the type of person that will let some punk run all over you while you keep telling them to stop? Or would you warn them, and then follow up your warnings with action?

[Erik]

[deleted text].

[Erik]

No. I'd rather not meet the punk in the first place.

I really resent the things you say about my feelings of soldiers in WW II saving our ass from facism. Don't judge what you don't know.

I'll leave this thread now. I do not contribute to it to get talked down to.

Have a good time with your war.
E.

[otis]

Erik,

this is just a debate forum, nothing personal in it,, just trying to make u answer some questions. If you get offended by these questions and you know somthing i don't then share...don't run away.

Life isn't perfect and sweet all the time, you are going to meet that punk somday, and your going to have to deal with it. you can't run away from everything.

[Goo]

no disrespect meant in any way......but Otis, you're starting to rant like a madman. this thread started out as a mature discussion about the war, but with all you caps and exclamation marks and your refusal to see from other people's POV but your own is making this thread look amatuerish. you could shout and rant at me all you want, but the facts speak for themselves. just look at the number pf posters pissed off by your rants in this discussion.

cool down, get a beer or something, and please......do try to understand the situation from other people's angles.

there is the matter here in South East Asia that nations are afraid of the repurcussions the war will cause, with the terrorist threats around the world and the blatant misuse of 'jihad'. apart from the middle east, the SEA countries has the largest number of muslims here.

[otis]

sorry guys, never meant to use caps as a meas of yelling.. I was using them to make key points..not harsh words. so sorry.

the only ones getting upset are the ones who can't defend a point with me. Except for saying "war is bad"..well duh.

i'm trying to get people to come up with ways to solve this crisis, or make a good argument for leaving iraq alone. But I keep getting the same old answers" war is bad" USA is opressive, Bush is bad, people will die" etc....

they are preaching to the choir..we all agree that war is bad...but what do we do??

1. sit back and do nothing but push paperwork around with useless resolution( without consequeces)

2. make countries like iraq that defy the world community pay for their actions. (somthing all of the U.N. obviously doesn't want to be responsible for.)

there has not been a terroist act since sept 11. the terrorist are on the run getting arrested all over the world.
N.Korea is surrounded by a couple big countries that will not tolerate their vain actions and big words. North Korea is another arm-pit of a country that will be dealt with. But we must deal with one at a time. Iraq would be a great example to set to all the other nations who want to defy the world community.

I honestly believe the press is making a much bigger deal and invoking fear in all of us around the world so that they can have us glued to their shows. Don't listen to this crap, just listen to your leaders, major events, and most of all stop listening to Saddam! The press loves to quote him daily...like his words mean anything. I think he has lied enough to the world.

[otis]

I probably sound like I want war. This is not true. I now we need to act though. If we don't act, and only apease, the matter will get worse. Leaders like Saddam will only take advantage of the apeasments. Giving him all the money, food, weapons and time in the world will not change him.

It is a sad reality but it's reality guys. None of us want people to suffer or die, but this is what happens when we have to deal with tyrants and dictators. We can't apease them and wish they will just go away. And what France is doing is ludicrus.
they want to do business with Saddam, but they don't want to defend him. In fact , they recently stated that if he uses bichemical weapons they will help in the fight, and after the war they want to be involved in developing a new Iraq.

Right. After we already commited to go, lost american lives, and had to deal with their stuborn veto. Forget it Jaques.
:p

[otis]

Jacques...oops sorry mispell

[Erik]

Otis, yeah man i'm sorry for my reaction. No offense taken, just got a little emotional there.

Everybody has a right to their opinion. But i'll still keep out of the thread from now on.

[otis]

no worries buddy. this stuff is never easy to talk about.

[stalecracker]

Well, I jumped back in here after a crappy night . What I have to say really isn't about the impending war...


THIS IS CAPS YELLING!!!! I WANT YOU ALL TO HEAR ME! I AGREE, I DISAGREE!!!! WHY ARE YOU BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!

This is using CAPS to punctuate KEY points that you would like to STAND OUT. It is NOT a form of YELLING!!!

MAybe it should be a seperate thread but why is it (and I fall victim to this, as well) that "ALL CAPS" talk irks us? It's weird, you know? I see all caps and I get irritated on some small level and then I feel dumb because I'm feeling an emotion due to all capital letter.

Any ideas?

[Lost]

I just read that 51% of americans think that Saddam was the one responsible for 9-11.

[stalecracker]

That's scarey depending on which polling group conducted it. I could walk out here in the office and ask who thinks Saddam COULD have been behind 9/11 and if out of 10 people- 6 said "Sure, could be". I could report it as 60 percent of all the people polled said they believed Saddam was behind 9/11. AND still be accurate to the poll. Most polls are not a bellweather for the majority of opinion. There are some that are accurate. Most notably... the Gallup Polling group.

I don't know where that info you cited was gathered but I find it HARD to believe.

[Lost]

I am not sure exactly were it came from. I read it in a news story on the Yahoo most e-mailed story web page.

I cant vouch for the poll....just read it....

Honestly, I dont find it that hard to believe though. Alot of people are dumb. No..not dumb....ill informed maybe?

A Lot of people just dont care....the only politics they know are what is shoved down their throat by the media. Two must shoved topics lately? Revenge for 9-11 and war with Saddam.

Dont know exactly what I am trying to say.....just observations I guess.
I am not very political. So I am not a good candidate to discuss facts with. IN fact I try to steer away from politics when I can.....but we are about to go to war....so I kinda take notice.

[fletchgirl]

Originally posted by otis

there has not been a terroist act since sept 11. the terrorist are on the run getting arrested all over the world.


Otis... i don't entirely disagree with you most of the time... but i hope you're talking abut terrorist acts in the U.S....
because...

Sunday, 4 August, 2002, 12:51 GMT 13:51 UK A bomb on a bus in northern Israel killed 10 people and injured more than 40 others. Three more people died in a separate shooting incident in east Jerusalem later on Sunday.

February 17, 2003 / Vol. 161 No. 6
Investigators probing October's Bali bomb blasts have reached new and startling conclusions about the two explosions in Kuta that claimed 193 lives. Previously they thought one or both of the blasts were set off by a remote-controlled device, most likely a mobile phone. But TIME has learned that investigators now believe both explosions were probably set off by suicide bombers. Sources familiar with the investigation say the main bomb—up to 100 kilos of explosives packed into a Mitsubishi minivan—was most likely detonated by a suicide bomber who was inside the vehicle.

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan, Jan. 31, 2003
A powerful bomb destroyed a bridge outside the southern Afghan city of Kandahar on Friday, killing 15 people on a bus, a deputy police chief said...
Several soldiers were killed in a similar explosion about two months ago in Kandahar. A bomb went off as their jeep crossed a busy road..

these are definately acts of terrorism. of course, we don't need terrorists because lately, we've been killing ourselves off in a much faster rate because of "death by nightclub." :rolleyes:

[otis]

sorry, ofcourse I meant to the U.S. Terroism has been around forever and will never go away.

[Lono]

heres a letter to bush from Michael Moore.
its posted on his web page

he sent it yesterday so im a bit late.

i cant say i completely agree with him on all of his examples, and he does exaggerate a bit here and there,, but he makes a few good points i think.






George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC


Dear Governor Bush:

So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I'm glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn't sure if I could take much more. So I'm glad to hear that today is Truth Day, 'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON'T FIND THEM! Why? 'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don't want to kill him! Funny how that works!

2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here's what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.

4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won't have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let's see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What's that you say? You don't THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don't think so either!

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn't even have this country known as America if it weren't for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can't get out of.

Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn't like to see a good ass-whoopin' every now and then (especially when it 's some third world ass!). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year's election. Of course, that's still a long ways away, so we'll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!

But, hey, who knows -- maybe you'll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!

Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com

[silent Insanity]

Lono:

I will start with the comment at the bottom "Kill Iraqis-- they got our oil"


The United States recieves a whopping 0% of its oil from iraq. Unlike France who going against UN sanctions receives a large portion of its oil from Saddam. Oh, lets not forget the 8 billion in oil Iraq owes to france or the fact that France is the largest contractors for the Iraqi food for oil exchange, and also has large contracting liscenses with Saddam.
So whats your excuse now? That the US is going to go over with rigs and actually steal Iraqi oil? Please get real.
Rather than saying the U.S wants war for oil you should be saying France wants peace for oil.

Gungho for war? Do you honestly think anyone in America is Gungho for war including the President? Implying ( in the last statement and in #1) that Bush wants to kill Iraqis is another false ploy that people have come up with in order to justify their veiw on the war.
Bushs approval rate is at 66% so Moore is obviously delusional if he thinks he speaks for the majority of the United States.

Geared towards # 2 : Villepin(Frances foreign Minister) declared Monday, "Already we know for a fact that Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs are being largely blocked, even frozen. We must do everything possible to strengthen this process." January 20, 2003

So where did the Wepons go? I guess they just dissapeared.

#3 : Ill say it again Bushs approval rating is 66% i think Moore should do his homework before he opens his mouth.

#4 : The pope? Do you think we should be taking advice from the pope? Read the Bible and get back to me on that one. Why would anyone care what the Dixie Cicks has to say honestly.

#5 : Whether or not any members of congress have children that are part of the armed services has nothing to do with wether or not this war is right or wrong. I think that was uncalled for and childish.

#6: We love France? Is he kidding or what. We have helped the French numerous times and how to we get thanked? With arrogant and hostile attitudes towards the US. If you want more refer to the first paragraph.

The last paragraph: Hey I thought during every war our economy strengthens. I guess Mr Moore is not a history buff.

My message to Mr.Moore is think before you talk.
-Ian B. aka silent-insanity.

[silent Insanity]

You do not think we have enough proof to go to war with iraq? Think about this.

We have deflectors in the iraqi military and or government that supply us with information. We come out with the proof that they have the wepons and Mr.Saddam gets angry and kills all that had access to the informations, killing our informant. oops.

[Lono]

silent Insanity: dont waste your breath on me,, send it to Michael Moore.
i know how much some of you guys just LOOOOVE to argue.
and on the topics of Religion, philosophy or Poitics it is an argument that will go on indefinately.
i just posted another persons POV on the subject and CLEARLY stated that i do not completely agree with all of his points. its just here for people to read so please stop directing your feverish retorts towards me.

ill try to clear up some of your queries.


#3 : Ill say it again Bushs approval rating is 66% i think Moore should do his homework before he opens his mouth. Michael Moore is a very well known investigative journalist who wrote a best selling book on the election,, so i would assume hes done a lot more homework than you.

#4 : The pope? Do you think we should be taking advice from the pope? Read the Bible and get back to me on that one. Why would anyone care what the Dixie Cicks has to say honestly. he was making a joke.. like sarcasim.

#5 : Whether or not any members of congress have children that are part of the armed services has nothing to do with wether or not this war is right or wrong. I think that was uncalled for and childish. i agree,, a bit of a low blow, but i think it was more of a comment on the level of detatchment that exists between the decision makers and the general public. i found the comment about our president going AWOL during Nam quite disturbing though... that is,, if its true.

#6: We love France? Is he kidding or what. We have helped the French numerous times and how to we get thanked? With arrogant and hostile attitudes towards the US. If you want more refer to the first paragraph.and there is plenty of hostile and arrogant attatude coming from the us towards france.. isnt it beautiful?

Hey I thought during every war our economy strengthens. I guess Mr Moore is not a history buff.
this war is different. its a technology war that probably wont be going on long enough to create jobs here at home.
do you realize how much one tomahawk missle costs us?
1.5 million each.

My message to Mr.Moore is think before you talk. that just sounds like a cut down. is that necessary?
hes not even gonna get to read this.

heres his email. mike@michaelmoore.com
if your even interested.

-Lono

[seb]

Originally posted by silent Insanity
Bushs approval rate is at 66% so Moore is obviously delusional if he thinks he speaks for the majority of the United States.

http://conceptdesign.ath.cx/seburo/dump/approval.gif

I couldn’t keep quiet any longer and watch from the sidelines :p

i think the blind patriotism forged by 11 september is wearing off. i doubt a majority, or at least the educated majority are in support of this military action. as far as I understand, no war in america's history has faced so much international scrutiny or public dissent before the bombs have begun to drop. everyone knows Saddam is a bad guy and a potential danger to other countries, but the case for immediate military action has not been strongly made; there is no smoking gun. if one were made public, there would be a stronger case for war.

re:: insanity
#5 : congress blindly granted president bush's request to use troops against iraqi last year. this was before the administrations so called smoking gun was revealed.

The last paragraph: our economy does not truly strengthen. money is put into the economy by the government (war bonds and loans). we need to pay these loans back in the decades after the bombs have stopped dropping. the only thing war is really good for is technological advances, but i doubt this will last long enough for anything useful to be developed.

ain't democracy grand? and that first amendment? damn, if i could only make more sense.

[Goo]

i guess what went on and is going on here is pretty redundant now...the war having started.

like the moore letter lono posted, Bush is probably gonna win and suddenly become everyone's favourite liberator. just think of the "i told you so"s coming from him....(thats a joke...don't want any of you hot blooded people come hunting me)

Otis: one point, it seems your contradicting yourself. dont listen to the presses? yet listen to the government and the president? the president's speeches are most prob mostly vetted by someone in the press corps, or some spin doctors. the media could also edit out certain parts of the president's speeches they feel like doing so, so ultimately, hearing what the president has to say is gonna be done through the media.

Stalecracker: the caps are irritating to most people, but there's also the bold text to be used to put emphasis on a word.

going to war is not good in any religion/race/whatever. war should be avoided and left as the last resort. and to go to war under false pretenses(linking Al-Queda and Iraq)...thats just a load of bull. i have read in the local papers today, that this war is affecting the mental state of mind of kids in iraq severly. who knows what emotional scars are left after this war on the kids, and who's to say they wont be manipulated by someone like Osama? and if people wants iraqi terrorists running around and destroying your local establishments, you just might have your wishes come true in a few years time. food for thought.

[otis]

the press can't mess with presidential adress's or press confrences. But you are right when they just show snips and blurbs from press confrences.

FYI: to all protestors and dooms dayers: We have more countries (a bigger collition) in this conflict than we did for the Gulf War.

I just want to make one prediction:

Once this war gets rolling, our troops move in, Iraqi's believe that Saddam's regeim is finally going to be gone once and for all,,, more and more countries will join our side, all this hesterical anti-war, press coverage will lose strength and the whole attitude will change. Now Bush is always going to have his anti-american/ Bush followers out there , but at least they will shut up and stop throwing themselves into the streets to stop traffic!
France has already volunteered to joing the collition if Saddam uses chemical weapons, and wants to be involved in developing the New Iraq. Talk about two faced.

[otis]

about the stats and polls people are talking about.

Personally i think most anti-war people are only uncertain and afraid "dooms dayers".
Or they want another Vietnam
or they are still stuck in Vietnam
or they just want somthing t go terribly wrong over in Iraq.

Either way, they don't want to solve anything, they just want Bush to look bad, want to believe we have some kind of corrupt, evil gov't, want to believe that this county is terrorizing the world, ...basicall they HATE this country.

I recently saw signs from protestors trying to compare bush to Hitler. Now is this who you want to be associated with in an anti-war movement??

Hey, the more morons out there protesting with this kind of crap the better.

[Orban]

Otis,
France has just say they will send help for the people hurt and so on by the war if Saddam use biochemical weapon, and that they are ok to help tu reconstruct the country AFTER the war.
France are not going to send fighters in Irak. They're ok to send helpers. Not the same thing at all. Belgium, German and so on are ok to send humanitarian help too.
We are still against a war. But I find normal to help country hurt by the plague of war - nothing we can do now against the war now, but we can help after it to reconstruct what has been destruct(by both armies).
I think every civilised country has done that a lot of time, we(in Belgium) have sent many many many men to help in Turkia, Congo, and so on...

There's no winner in a war, just some looser...

[otis]

I agree, and it's great to get as much support as possible to help develop a new iraq. But we all know that humanitarian efforts don't get rid of tyrants and war lords. But it is needed after any war.

Somalia is a prime example how good intentions of humanitarian efforts only contribute to more deaths:
when we dropped food to the people in Somalia, the warlords with the guns would steal this food from the people. Only making the war criminals more powerfull. And if the people would resist, they would be shot. So the U.S. goes in to make sure the warlords don't take the food by force...now we have a conflict on our hands.

So what do you do when the guy with the gun (has the power) abuses the women and children who are starving???? Drop flowers and peace signs, and resolutions??? give me a break.

[otis]

BTW.. there is always a winner afer a war. Or else Hitler would still be next door to you buddy.

[fletchgirl]

Originally posted by seb
i doubt a majority, or at least the educated majority are in support of this military action [B]
this has to stop.
1) educated majority? have you ever worked retail? ;)
2) as we have seen in this tread, there are educated people on all sides. As in a good debate, facts can be used to support anyone who can weild them. this is because in this case, THERE IS NO RIGHT answer. i'm sorry, neither situation (going to war or not) is going to be good for all involved. anyway, lets just get back to talking about art. please. this war has started, all we can do now is pray that the best possible end can come of this.

[mcotie]

oh yeah, who should we pray to?


sorry just pickin another fight.

[otis]

Fletchgirl,

Don't worry I think the best is yet to come. I agree , we should be doing more art, when's the next Thunderdome????
I can't wait!!!

[otis]

Hey, has anyone played that new game C&C Generals??
It's Ironic how similar that game is to current events!!!

[fletchgirl]

Originally posted by mcotie
oh yeah, who should we pray to?


sorry just pickin another fight.

:god: says, SHUT UP AND DRAW!!! BWA HAHAHAHA

[mcotie]

:firedevil says "no, keep supporting the war!!"


he he

[Lono]

:bootyshak says,, "can you see what i ate?"


-Lono

[mcotie]

:moon:
cleavage that speaks

[Lono]

LOL!

[otis]

:machinegu :ranting:

[fletchgirl]

:p this guy needs a bigger tongue.

[silent Insanity]

All america needs is a few ion cannons and a few stealth bombers.

[silent Insanity]

10 year olds fighting in war isnt that cute


http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/iraqchildsoldiers.cfm

[fletchgirl]

"Some of the best known of these programs include: “Raad” and “Al Anfal,” which have trained over 23,000 children, and “Saddam Cubs,” military training camps for 8,000 Iraqi children"

the Saddam Cubs?!?!? is that before or after "Saddam Weblos"...

[silent Insanity]

What is weblos?

Hey i just saw in the news that the b52's have started up their engines, the media thinks they are going to attack soon.... I think the media is void of common sense, i wonder where saddam gets his intelligence from.

going to war is not good in any religion/race/whatever

I agree because religion has molded itself to modern society which is anti war. But look at the bible gods people commit genocide with no protest on Gods part.

Of coarse the french want to be part of the iraqi reformation, they want their oil.

otis-good points. Armies also take the food and tell families give me your eldest son or you get no food.

[otis]

Well, so dar everything is going how I predicted.
We've secured the buring oil fields in Basra (which Saddam promised he wouldn't set a fire)
Liberated on small city where the people of Iraq were crying and celebrating to see U.S. troops!!! YES I HOPE YOU ALL HEARD THAT THIS MORNING ON THE NEW! The only fear the Iraqi's had was us leaving them again with Saddam.

All the anti-war assholes calling Bush a Nazi, dictator, are a bunch a morons. Bush is not abusing his power...he is excecuting a power all presidents have, Congress passed a resolution allowing Bush to take action, WE ARE LIBERATING IRAQ! Not destroying it! In fact we are so worried about Iraqi's feelings that we are not raising any American flags over liberated towns or cities for crying out loud!!! The only worry Iraqi's are having about us is that we are going to leave them again like we did in 91!!!!!
We have more support from nations in this campaign then we did in 91. (Although the stupid protestors are getting more press this time)

Look i have no problem with people having different opinions, but when the morons take to the streets causing civil disobedience , by throwing up, stopping traffic, fighting police, raising nazi flags in our president's name, destroying business's, I say they all should be arrested and shipped out to Iran or Syria. FUCK THEM.

At least you guys here know how to have discussions, and many of us have learned a lot from these forums. If I have a debate with someone, and either they or I are wrong or learn somthing new we are HUMBLE enough to admit it and maybe take somthing away from the debate.
But these fucks who have no argument, make no sense, no solution, and abuse their right to protest, should all be arrested and shipped out of this country.

[jrr]

drop self, not bombs (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030319/ts_nm/iraq_usa_death_dc_3)

[fletchgirl]

oh, sorry, weblos are a form of cub scouts. i always thought the name was funny. that's all.

[otis]

Did you hear about the vandalism these idiots did to the Patton museum? They sparay painted all over WW2 exhibits with statements like: US are Nazi, ..Jihad,kill all amaericans...and more.
This memorial is a Mecca for WW2 vets....and not said it Lt. Dale Dye could have not said it better: "Those people go on my N.T.B.K list: Need to be killed list.

[jester]

Come on, guys, do you take everything for granted that you see in the news in times of war? Ever heard the word "propaganda"?

I'm not implying that all pictures we see now on CNN, NBC, BBC and Al Jazeera are fakes, but since movies like Forrest Gump anybody should know how easy it is to fake or twist information.

After the Gulf War in 1991 military officials had to admit that much of their "information" was just propaganda and I think it's the same just now. I think it really is a problem that journalists from all over the world are not allowed to gather their own infos in Iraq right now but have to rely on the pictures/films given to them by the military. At best (this was in the news tonight - and yes, you might call thi spropaganda, too) they are allowed to interview American journalist who had been given more information.

After an initial post on Mitch's "I love France" thread I have been a lurker on this thread. I'm against war. And I think it's a good thing to get rid of Saddam. So you see how ambiguous one's feelings can really be. Now that the war has started anyway, I hope that it ends as soon as possible. And that they end that regime now and for all times. But I'm afraid that this will only be a beginning of a new worldwide conflict which can become worse than the cold war.

Jester

[stalecracker]

This was posted on a another forum. It is very good...

The Question/Comment

... its a war that based on loose facts, a bulling grudge and scape goats. the US slipped up. allowed people to penetrate its most heavily armed building, disrespect its capital and slaughter countless and irreplacable lives. Now our puppet strung commander n cheif, has no solid basis for his attack other than Sadaam having miltary weaponry ---- do you honestly think that his tiny littel resoarces can irradicate the "freedom" of the entire united states. Meanwhile Korea armed to the teeth and obviously holding negativity against us is left to fly easy. Who are we to say that Iraq cannot arm themselves they are at war with other nations why not have defenses??

Now if you can give me solid reason why your brother or any other american should put their lives on the line for the reasons Bush has losly stated in his flimsy address then i take it all back. but until you can or at the least out your whole life on hold to go and fight what you so beleive in then i have no choice but be opposed to this. I am not anti-american, i'm anti Bush.

notice how everyone but Bush Sr. is in the press..... wonder who's pullin strings......."

The Response

"do you honestly think that his tiny little resources can irradicate the "freedom" of the entire united states"

I believe it was a small group of radicals, with "tiny little resources" as you put it, that brought down the towers. That event most certainly jeopardized my freedom to live in my country without the fear of some fucker hijacking the plane I'm on and crashing it into a Goddamn building!

If you need me to point out the "obvious" facts about why we are going to war, then let me educate you.


War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity

Saddam Hussein seized power in 1979. The list of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Saddam Hussein and his regime is a long one. It includes:

*

The use of poison gas and other war crimes against Iran and the Iranian people during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war. Iraq summarily executed thousands of Iranian prisoners of war as a matter of policy.
*

The "Anfal" campaign in the late 1980's against the Iraqi Kurds, including the use of poison gas on cities. In one of the worst single mass killings in recent history, Iraq dropped chemical weapons on Halabja in 1988, in which as many as 5,000 people — mostly civilians — were killed.
*

Crimes against humanity and war crimes arising out of Iraq's 1990-91 invasion and occupation of Kuwait.
*

Crimes against humanity and possibly genocide against Iraqi Kurds in northern Iraq. This includes the destruction of over 3,000 villages. The Iraqi government's campaign of forced deportations of Kurdish and Turkomen families to southern Iraq has created approximately 900,000 internally displaced citizens throughout the country.
*

Crimes against humanity and possibly genocide against Marsh Arabs and Shi'a Arabs in southern Iraq. Entire populations of villages have been forcibly expelled. Government forces have burned their houses and fields, demolished houses with bulldozers, and undertaken a deliberate campaign to drain and poison the marshes. Thousands of civilians have been summarily executed.
*

[stalecracker]

Possible crimes against humanity for killings, ostensibly against political opponents, within Iraq.

The satellite photograph shows a new headquarters complex that Saddam Hussein has built for the Mujahedin-e-Khalq. The complex is located in Falluja, approximately 40 kilometers west of Baghdad. Construction was begun in late 1998 and is still going on. The site covers approximately 6.2 square kilometers and includes lakes, farms, barracks, administrative buildings and other facilities. The facility can accommodate between 3,000 and 5,000 MEK members. The inset shows the MEK's headquarters complex, which is used to coordinate the activities of the organization throughout Iraq and to plan attacks against targets in Iran and elsewhere.

Saddam Hussein spends millions in funds that he controls to support terrorism and threaten his neighbors. Not to help the people of Iraq.

Finally, there is also a terrible irony in all this. The revenues Saddam Hussein used to pay for this new headquarters complex for the Mujahedin-e-Khalq come in part from gasoil smuggling through Iranian waters. As part of this smuggling activity, corrupt Iranian officials are lured by the promise of easy profits to allow ships to transit Iranian territorial waters en route to markets for the smuggled gasoil. Without this cooperation, Saddam could not smuggle gasoil, the profits from which are used to support terrorist attacks against Iranian soil.

This new headquarters for a terrorist organization suggests what is in store for Iraq's neighbors if Saddam gets his hands on more Iraqi oil revenues. With regard to Iraqi oil sold under the Oil-for-Food program, the net proceeds of Iraqi oil sales are going to meet the needs of the Iraqi people, not the needs of terrorists.

Fact Sheet on the Mujahedin-e-Khalq

*

Formed 1960s by college-educated children of Iranian merchants. Sought to counter what it perceived as excessive Western influence in the Shah's regime. Has developed into the largest and most active armed Iranian opposition to the present government. History studded with anti-Western activity, and attacks on the interests of the clerical regime in Iran and abroad.
*

During the 1970s staged terrorist attacks inside Iran and killed several US military personnel and civilians working on defense projects in Tehran. Supported the takeover in 1979 of the US Embassy in Tehran.
*

In 1987, MEK driven from HQ in France. Moved base of operations to Iraq. In return for financial, logistical and material support from Saddam, MEK forces have assisted Saddam in the repression of Kurds and other minorities in northern Iraq. MEK in Iraq estimated to possess approximately a division's worth of heavy equipment (tanks, armored personnel carriers and artillery) Continually conduct raids, bombings and mortar attacks in Iran.
*

In April 1992 conducted attacks on Iranian embassies in 13 different countries. Conducted numerous attacks in Iran, including three explosions in Tehran in June 1998 that killed three persons, and the assassination of Asadollah Lajevardi, the former director of the Evin Prison.
*

In April 1999, the MEK assassinated Chief of the Iranian Armed Forces General Staff, General Shirazi.
*

According to press reports, MEK has spent the last few weeks stepping up its attacks on Iran and Iranians. On Monday, March 13, launched a mortar attack against a residential neighborhood in north Tehran, near the headquarters of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards. Four people injured. MEK admitted responsibility. In January, Iran claimed the Mujahedin-e-Khalq killed 3 villagers and wounded 5 in an attack on the village of Chalsarab in Ilam province. In February, the MEK admitted launching 12 attacks in Iran, one of which we know killed 1 and injured 6 in Tehran near the presidential palace.


Holding Saddam Accountable

The United States wants to see Saddam and his close aides investigated, indicted, and if possible, prosecuted by an international tribunal. The Yugoslav war crimes tribunal's May 1999 indictment of Slobodan Milosevic for crimes against the Muslim Kosovar Albanian people shows that when crimes are committed on the scale that Saddam Hussein has committed them, justice should be done not just in the name of the victims, but in the name of all humanity.

The United States is helping international efforts to gather evidence.

*

The U.S. Government helped human rights and opposition groups collect 5.5 million pages of captured Iraqi documents from the "Anfal" campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in the 1980's. These documents show the routine nature of the atrocities and abuses committed by Saddam Hussein's regime against the Iraqi people. These documents are being catalogued, indexed, and electronically transcribed for use by investigators and prosecutors.
*

Tens of thousands of pages of Iraqi documents captured during Operation Desert Storm in 1991 are also now being indexed and computerized. The originals themselves will be returned to Kuwait and computerized copies will be made available to human rights groups, scholars, investigators and prosecutors.
*

The U.S. has large amounts of information on Iraq's campaign to destroy the Southern Marshes and repression of the people of southern Iraq.
*

We are preserving videotapes of Iraqi war crimes that can be used for eventual prosecution of Iraqi war crimes. The United States also has classified documents, some of which can be declassified and shared with an international tribunal or commission.

Saddam Hussein's Iraq is a brutal police state and so the collection of evidence of the crimes of the regime is difficult to obtain. Opposition groups work with great courage to bring this news to the world. We are working with Iraqi opposition and human rights groups in support of their efforts to collect additional evidence of Saddam's war crimes. Opposition and human rights groups' efforts include:

*

Locating witnesses to Iraqi war crimes and help build evidence that could be used to justify the arrest of senior Iraqi officials traveling outside the country.
*

Helping analyze captured Iraqi documents and translate them so that the world can be educated about Iraqi war crimes.

The U.S. Government is providing grants to a number of NGO's working on Iraqi war crimes issues. Grants have been provided for gathering evidence, translating captured Iraqi documents written in Arabic into other languages, making evidence of Iraqi war crimes available on the Internet, and taking steps to preserve written, visual and testimonial evidence of the crimes committed by Saddam Hussein's regime.

International efforts to draw attention to the war crimes record of the Iraqi regime has already begun:

*

Efforts were made to arrest Izzat Ibrahim, Vice Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council, while he was visiting Austria in August of 1999.
*

A few weeks later, Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz decided not to travel to Italy to attend a conference entitled, "Peace, Prosperity, and an End to War." As one human rights group said, "The only suitable venue for Tariq Aziz to express his opinions is that of a courtroom where we will all have a chance to hear about his government's record on peace, prosperity and war."

[stalecracker]

Based on publicly available information, the facts contained in this report demonstrate that under the regime of Saddam Hussein, Iraq continues to repress its people, threaten the region, and obstruct international efforts to provide humanitarian relief.

We are helping the Iraqi people in their efforts to bring about a regime that is committed to living in peace with its neighbors and respecting the rights of its citizens.

We want to see Iraq return as a respected and prosperous member of the international community, and as the evidence shows, this is unlikely to happen as long as Saddam Hussein is in power.

As long as Saddam Hussein is in power, we are determined to contain the Iraqi regime and prevent it from threatening the region or its own people. We will also continue our efforts to increase humanitarian relief for the people of Iraq, over the obstructions of the regime.

History of Aggression

Far from apologizing for its invasion of Kuwait, Iraq continues to assert that its actions were justified.

*

On this year's ninth anniversary of the invasion of Kuwait, the government newspaper Babel — owned by Saddam's son Uday — stated "We still believe that what we did on August 2, 1990, was the right response to foil a large and abortive conspiracy."
*

In an editorial on August 2, 1999, al Thawra, the regime's mouthpiece, referred to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait as, "the honorable day of the call."
*

In 1994, Saddam attempted to blackmail the UN Security Council into lifting sanctions by massing his forces for another invasion of Kuwait. In response, the UNSC passed Resolution 949, ordering Iraq to withdraw its Republican Guard forces from southern Iraq.

Not only does Baghdad consider its invasion of Kuwait "honorable," but Saddam Hussein has gone so far as to call for the overthrow of fellow Arab leaders and to attempt to murder the Emir of Kuwait and former president George Bush.

*

In Saddam's Army Day speech of January 6, 1999, he said: "Release your anger and rebel against the defiled ones who are playing with your fate and the fate of the nation.... Rebel against those who are proud of the friendship of the United States, those who are proud of being U.S. protégées..."
*

In 1993, Iraq organized an attempt to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush and the Emir of Kuwait.
*

In August 1996, the regime's forces attacked the Kurdish-held city of Irbil. Within hours, Iraqi secret police had swarmed over the city, arresting hundreds and killing scores of suspected oppositionists.
*

Baghdad continues to harbor the Muhjahideen e-Khalq (MEK), Iranian dissents who conduct a widespread terrorist campaign to support their political agenda. In the past, the MEK has been responsible for attacks on Americans, (including participating in the seizure of the US embassy in Tehran in 1979), Iraqis, Iranians, and Europeans.
*

Saddam continues to attack coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones, which were established to prevent Saddam from attacking Kurdish and Shi'a civilians, in violation of UNSC Resolutions 688 and 949.

.

UNSCR 687 and related resolutions 707, 715, and 1051 stipulate that Iraq must provide full, final and complete disclosure of all aspects of its nuclear, chemical, biological, and long-range missile weapons programs; allow unconditional inspection access by international monitors; cease any attempt to conceal, move, or destroy any material or equipment related to these programs; and cooperate with UN monitoring of relevant Iraqi facilities and trade activities.

What Iraq Has Done

When these resolutions were passed, it was expected that compliance would require no more than 90 days. Instead, nine years later, sanctions remain in place because Iraq has decided to (1) hide weapons and major components of these programs, (2) secretly destroy older, less-capable weapons and equipment, and (3) give UN inspectors fraudulent declarations to mask weapons and equipment that are still hidden.

*

Iraq began playing hide-and-seek with UN inspectors in 1991. In December 1998, Saddam stopped all cooperation with the UN, refusing to let any weapons inspectors into the country.
*

In July 1998, Iraq seized from the hands of UNSCOM inspectors an Iraqi Air Force document indicating that Iraq had misrepresented the expenditure of over 6,000 bombs which may have contained over 700 tons of chemical agent. Iraq continues to refuse to provide this document to the UN.
*

Iraq continues to deny weaponizing VX nerve agent, despite the fact that UNSCOM found VX nerve agent residues on Iraqi SCUD missile warhead fragments. Based on its investigations, international experts concluded that "Iraq has the know-how and process equipment, and may possess precursors to manufacture as much as 200 tons of VX ... The retention of a VX capability by Iraq cannot be excluded by the UNSCOM international expert team."
*

Iraq has refused to credibly account for 500 tons of SCUD propellant, over 40 SCUD biological and conventional warheads, 7 Iraqi-produced SCUDs, and truckloads of SCUD components.
*

Iraq refuses to allow inspection of thousands of Ministry of Defense and Military Industries Commission documents relating to biological and chemical weapons and long-range missiles.
*

In 1995, Iraqis who conducted field trials of R-400 bombs filled with biological agents described the tests to UNSCOM experts in considerable detail, including the use of many animals. These field trials were reflected in Iraq's June 1996 biological weapons declaration. Yet, amazingly, Iraq now denies that any such trials were conducted at all.
*

In September 1995, Iraq finally declared the existence of two projects to disseminate biological agents from Mirage F-1 and MiG-21 aircraft, yet there is no evidence that the prototype weapons and aircraft were ever destroyed. There is also no evidence that the 12 Iraqi helicopter-borne aerosol generators for biological weapon delivery were ever destroyed.
*

Apart from one document referring to a single year, no Iraqi biological weapon production records have been given to the UN — no records of storage, of filling into munitions, or of destruction. This is why UNSCOM refers to Iraq's biological weapons program — which deployed SCUD missile warheads filled with anthrax and botulinum toxin to be ready for use against Coalition forces — as a "black hole."
*

The Iraqis have repeatedly changed their story about their biological weapons warheads. Iraq has revised several times its declarations regarding the precise locations of warhead destruction and the fill of warheads. The movements of concealed warheads prior to unilateral destruction, claimed by Iraq, have been proven to be false.
*

At the request of the UNSC, Brazilian Ambassador Amorim led a review of the mechanisms designed to ensure Iraqi disarmament. His 7 April 1999 report affirmed that future work "should be based on the full implementation of the plans for ongoing monitoring and verification approved by Security Council Resolution 715 (1991)" and called for Iraq to provide UNSCOM and IAEA inspectors with all the rights called for by UNSC resolutions 687, 707, and 1051." Rather than do so, Saddam has refused to allow weapons inspectors into Iraq.


.

Given Saddam Hussein's long record of aggression against his neighbors and repression of his own people, and absent any proof that he has in fact disarmed, it is important that the international community remain united in containing this dangerous regime.

*

Sanctions will remain in place until UNSC requirements are fully met.
*

Only a robust, fully empowered inspection regime can determine if Iraq is fully disarmed. A weak inspection regime will not be effective.
*

No-fly zones will be enforced to prevent Saddam from using his air force and helicopters to slaughter his people, as he has repeatedly done in the past. No-fly zones also contain Saddam Hussein's ability to threaten his neighbors.
*

The United States will use force if Saddam threatens Iraq's neighbors or coalition forces, reconstitutes or deploys WMD, or moves against the Kurds.

Humanitarian Relief

At the same time, we are working to relieve the suffering of the Iraqi people by:

*

Expanding Iraqi oil sales making more money available for oil-for-food.
*

Working to get Iraq to order more food, especially nutritional supplements for children and lactating mothers, which it has until now refused to do.
*

Expediting approval of contracts under oil-for-food.
*

Supporting a draft UNSC resolution which proposes lifting the oil-for-food ceiling on oil sales.

The international community, not Saddam Hussein, is caring for the Iraqi people.

[stalecracker]

Regime Change

Saddam's record over the past 10 years, however, demonstrates that he will never comply with UN resolutions and that he will continue to repress his own people and threaten his neighbors. That is why we believe that the only way to address the security needs of the international community and the needs of the people of Iraq is through a new government in Baghdad, one that is committed to living in peace with its neighbors and respecting the rights of its citizens. Iraq, the region, and the world would be better off with a new government in Iraq.

*

We support the territorial integrity of Iraq. One nation, whole and free. Saddam Hussein is not what's holding Iraq together; he's what's breaking it apart.
*

The United States believes that if there is to be change, it must come from within Iraq, led by Iraqis. We do not seek to impose an American solution or a foreign opposition on the people of Iraq.
*

In a post-Saddam Iraq, the United States will take the lead to foster economic development, restore Iraqi civil society, rebuild the middle class, and restore Iraq's health and education sectors.

More interesting tidbits about this guy.

Since the end of the Gulf War, Saddam Hussein has directed and sustained a multi-billion dollar palace construction program while pleading that the UN sanctions keep him too poor to feed and provide health care for his people. While he keeps Iraq's hospital shelves bare and shows them to journalists, Saddam restricts access to the new and ornate palaces to himself and his chosen admirers of any given moment. Moreover, Saddam fits out these monuments with the finest foreign materials — from golden plumbing to the finest European marble and crystal chandeliers — smuggled in despite the embargo that Baghdad propaganda falsely claims blocks the import of food and medicine.

Saddam Hussein pays for these palaces with that part of the Iraqi national wealth that he has managed to keep under his control and out of the UN's mandatory oil-for-food program. Through that program, the UN controls how Iraqi oil revenues are spent and compels the regime to invest Iraq's oil wealth for the benefit of its people. But every day that he remains in power, Saddam lets his favored supporters steal hundreds of thousands of barrels of oil from the Iraqi people to enrich themselves, in direct violation of UN resolutions.

Most Iraqis and the few foreign visitors to Iraq only get to see the outer walls of Saddam's monuments to his glory. This report provides satellite images that allow Iraqis and the rest of the world to see better how Saddam Hussein spends some of the money that he is able to steal from the national wealth of the Iraqi people.

I’m going to stop here and let you gestate on this for a while. There is much, much more.

North Korea is certainly a problem, but right now its more of a problem for it’s own poor people than it is for us. Hundai is doing a lot to help in the reunification of Korea and hopefully peace will follow.

Bush Sr. is not the President now. Why the hell does it matter if we hear from him or not?

I hope this is enough FACT for you.

[Lono]

Jesus joel! your fingertips must be bleeding!

yah,, Saddam Hussein is without a doubt,, a huge bag of shit.

:p

-Lono

[stalecracker]

ctrl-C ctrl-V Baby!!!!


BOOOM!

[oglzogl]

Well, here is another FACT. The USA all but put Saddam in power. And yet you trust this administration to establish another government in Iraq and not have it blow up in our face.. again.

I don't think anyone here would disagree that Saddam is an evil man.. and should be dealt with. What we are disagreeing with, or what I disagree with I should say, is with the way it has been handled. Saddam had been castrated. He didn't really have the power he was after. But by invading Iraq the US may very well give people in that region, who already hate us, a new battle cry.

Listen, the Iraqi people will be better off without Saddam as leader. No doubt about it. But how do you think the people in the region are going to interpreit our stepping into their business again? Already, I have read numerous reports about people in the middle east who state quite plainly that this is seen as a war on Islam. How will they react? With more violence and terrorism I'd guess. I see one of Saddams main goals to be to unite Islam against America. What did he do in the first Gulf War? Shot at Isreal.. What is he saying now? We are Zionists working for Israel.. And with this war he may be able to convince a lot of people.

How do you think the world at large will interpreit our self-appointed position as the police force of the world? A better question is.. Do you really want to be the world's police force? Expect resistance and a backlash if you do..

I firmly believe that this is all about establishing a presence in the middle east. People ask why not North Korea.. People ask why not Iran.. I think it is because, like Mitch's illustration coveys in the War Art thread (hope you don't mind me using that as an example), Bush had to play the game. He had to take over one of the squares on the chessboard that is the middle east so that the US could maintain a presence there for a long, long time. Iraq was a ripe opprotunity to accomplish that goal.

It is nice to believe that we (and I'll say we because I think of my self as a good, patriotic American) are doing this just to help out the Iraqi people. I am sure that is part of the reason. But there are other, less noble reasons that no one wants to admit to.

Now I also understand and appreciate the other side. I am not out "throwing up, stopping traffic, fighting police, raising nazi flags" (sorry otis. I had to quote you. The image of protesters throwing up all over the place hit my funny bone for some reason..) I just have a lot of questions and worries that I wish would have been addressed before we went out half-cocked.

[stalecracker]

(eidted my first sentece as it was inflammatory)

Yes, We, the U.S. supported Hussein in his early days, we supplied him with weapons, funds, goods. At the TIME, there was a guy named, uh.... hmmm.... Qaddafi, that's it, he was terrorizing the Middle East and we AND Hussein were worried. At the time, Iraq was an "ally" of sorts. So Qaddafi blows up a nightclub and kills some of our servicemen and Reagan creeps over (having to avoid French airspace, I believe) and blows the shit out of his palace killing some of his family. "He counted on America to be passive... He counted wrong" GREAT quote! So years later the same person we supported turns on, not only us, but, essentially, the economic world and trys to DOMINATE the oil market. That would have been catastrophic. Oh, he also INVADED a sovreign state. So we go there and fix it. Tell him to shape up or we'll be back. Well, we're baa-aack.

Also- anyone who honestly believes that this is a war on Islam is a bonafide, narrow-minded DUMBASS. Hussein and his "boys" have said what they said about the Zionist crap say that because they know people are listening. It is PROPAGANDA. Hussein is about as religious as my cat's ass. If you saw the litterbox, you'd know JUST how religious that ain't.

For 10+ years questions have been asked, examined and answered. Hell, even Clinton was concerned in his day. PAY attention and your questions will have their answers.

[silent Insanity]

North Korea will not attack us because while i believe kim is crazy i do not think hes suicidal.
If invading iraq means we gain control of their oil then i think France and Russia would have been the first ones there.
If the arab world actually listens to saddam then the arab world is filled with complete idiots and we should withdraw all troops and aid because their is not hope in dope.

[stalecracker]

N. Korea won't attack because China is sitting there. the LAST thing China wants is N.Korea starting shit. I dare say China will be "most persuasive" should N.Korea start getting WAY out of hand. I also think we would side with China... Sould that occur.

[oglzogl]

No shit it is PROPAGANDA.. propaganda works. It's worked many times in the past. That is my point.

That is why I dont think DIPLOMACY was no longer an option. A DIPLOMATIC solution, or further attempts at DIPLOMACY may have ALLOWED people to REALIZE that pehaps WE were on THEIR SIDE.

EDIT: .. and don't hand me that "we've given him twelve years" BS. Would we be in Iraq right now if not for 911? I think not. You might think this is a time when diplomacy is required even more than usual.. because that is a delicate part of the world.

[silent Insanity]

China wont cause any trouble to jeopardize their chances of hosting the 2008 olympics that will bring billions to their economy.

somtimes its takes a disaster to open peoples eyes. Just because were looking at them now because of september 11th doesnt automaticly mean we shouldnt be, many things go overlooked that should be addressed.

Wishfull thinking doesnt get things done.

[oglzogl]

Kadafi really had no influence in getting Saddam into power that I am aware of. It was our conflict with Iran (when they had our hostiges) that made us support Saddam. Maybe Kadafi was the icing on the cake though.

Now, I am definately not saying that Saddam and Iraq didn't need to be addressed. I just don't like the way it was handled. I am also big enough to admit I am oversimplifying when I say we are there only because of 911. It is a hell of a lot more complicated an issue than that. Spoke out of turn perhaps. There are no easy answers to this..

I have stated my concerns.. and I stand by them. I have been paying attention.. and I am still concerned.

[Clodhopper]

I was talking and around and reached a prediction...The Us is going to seize control of the oil wells for the next several years. and Bush will justify it becuase we need funding for this war. back in '91 the US received billions of dollars of support. This time Bush received nothin, so I beleive hes goin to take those oil wells and use them for years- that will be the price Iraq will repay for the "freedom" the US is giving them.

Furthermore, how is this goin to be a short war? Theres no easy ending for this. If US cleans out Saddam's regiem, then the Curds, or the Sheites are going to seize power with civil war and another dictator will rise again...so the US will have to stay.

I was thinking maybe the UN should appoint a government commity to oversee Iraq. becuase they can't just pull out, civil war will break out, then Iraq will be in the same/similar postion.

[otis]

all I 've been hearing is that the U.S. is leaving the oil for the Iraqi's so that they have money to build a new Iraq (of course with the help of US dollars and the rest of the world. )
As for the conflicting tribes in Iraq, who knows if they will get along. but I'm sure that the US and the world are not going to just let one group kill the other.

Now, as far as all this rehtoric about US taking control or over the oil is stupid. How abnoxiously blantant would that be? I think that Iraqi people will have complete control of their oil, but I wont be surprised if they cut US and UK and their collalition a pretty good deal...hell they are the ones who kicked Saddam out after all.
As for support the US knows it has enough money to pull this regeim change off. I think that the people forget how much money our gov't makes off of it's insane taxes. Our country produces more money than anywhere else in the world. And we aint starving over here at all either.

Clodhopper: "that will be the price Iraq will repay for the "freedom" the US is giving them"
Do you not think that we are liberating the Iraqi people?

[mcotie]

yeah like we liberated the Afghanis?
Plus imagine what we could have done for OUR health care (or lack thereof) programs with each of the tomahawk missiles we shoved up Saddam's arse. $1.5 million a piece. 30+ launched last night alone and we just got started.

mitch

[silent Insanity]

total isolationism..

[Clodhopper]

I think that Iraqi people will have complete control of their oil, but I wont be surprised if they cut US and UK and their collalition a pretty good deal

well...I don't see a real big margin of difforence between, "cutting a good deal" and partially controlling the oil wells. Every major country in the nation is whatching these oil wells and I will be VERY surprised if they stay COMPLETELY in the hands of the Iraqi people.

but I'm sure that the US and the world are not going to just let one group kill the other

Exactly, so how is this goin to be a short war? the Curds, Sheites and the rest have been kiling eachother for years, and what are they going to do if Saddam is gone? kill eachother for more years. US can't leave, and "the Iraqi People" are divided amongst several difforent cultures. and all those cultures are going to want to control Iraq-and the oil. So US can't just leave, they will be stuck in Iraq for years

As for support the US knows it has enough money to pull this regeim change off

Thats just friggin rediculas...do you enjoy being taxed? the president doesn't pull funding out of his ass, and just becuase people arn't starving in America doesn't mean that our budget unlimited...Taxes will be raised, you and I and everyone are going to pay for a good portion of this war out of our own pockets through taxes- it will come out of our schools, our national defenses, welfare, social security-EVERYTHING. even our road maintenance will have less funding becuase of this war.
No, America will rebuild Iraq--but in return for oil. becuase there are alot of people like me can't afford much more taxation-especially if its over a war we don't support. so the president will be forced to look for outside funding...like those nice lucrative oil wells. hopefully the UN will take charge of rebuilding Iraq, but I really don't see tht happening.

[silent Insanity]

Bushs approval rating is 70%.

[oglzogl]

"The masses are asses." - Alexander Hamilton

Edit: I apologize.. that is the quote I always think of when I see polls and ratings. Especially ones that dont agree with me, I guess. LOL ;)

[Orban]

40% of American people think that Al Qaida is related to Irak.

Mass Media manipulation you said? :D

[silent Insanity]

I think president bush has not used enough brains and to much brans(sp). A good president would have been able to manipulated the world but more importantly manipulate the un into doing what he wants and making it seem like they came up with the idea themselves. Bush has given the USA a bad name because he doesnt give a rats ass about the views of foriegn countries, but that is one of the jobs of the president.
ps. I am not anti nor am i pro war.

[otis]

yep..it's going to be an interesting ride.
Regarding funds for the war: No ofcourse I dont' want more taxes, and I think we ahve way too many now. But the Democrats will never cut one program, so I don't think we will ever stop being taxed to death...WHY don't we protest our taxes like we protest the war???

[silent Insanity]

If our government would stop giving our money away to foriegn countries then they wouldnt need to tax us.

[UpShift]

stalecracker ... the media owns you, facts and figures do not dictate morality and ethics, 'nuff said

Saddam sucks, but this WAR of ours is just as wrong as Saddam himself. America is showing it's true hipocrasy. We rant and rant about peace negotiations, but in our own personal affairs we use might because we can. As we push on into Iraq I laugh at the propaganda i see on cnn and cry for the iraqi people. I cannot imagine what they must feel right now and I cannot imagine someone considering them a statistic, a simple casualty of war. I cry for the children of tomorrow who will grow up in a world with new lasting hate between the United States and almost all of the Arab world. I cry for them again because this war will fuel new champions against the United States who will only seek to create more lasting impression than 9/11.

I consider us lucky, lucky that there have not been more bombings here in the states. We exploit so many people and destroy so many cultures I'm amazed this doesn't happen more frequently. Perhaps this war will be a source of unity for those people, to strike out against us.

I am baffled how so many people who claim to have faith in a God can have so little disregard for the life he has created. Bombs do not make peace. Wouldn't your God want peace?

Patriotism at what cost?

Food for thought:
If you took all the money we are spending on this war and used it to pay off student loans, you could pay off every student loan from now until 50 years later. Talk about an investment in America? I mean, if I weren't racking up all these debts then I could buy all those big ticket items they say I should get to stimulate our failing economy. Plus, I wouldn't be an indentured servent after I graduate. Did you also know that China has consistently filed human rights complaints against the United States' practice regarding student loans? Ofcourse, we veto'd all of those. Veto'd those and the recent proposed UN investigation into Israel when they killed 2 UN peace keepers, a UN warehouse of food for palestinian refugees, and 3 civilians. Don't hear about that in our media do ya?

[KayCustomz]

I've been watching te news now, the bastards took up pows now!! now I just don't realy care whats happens to the iraq's. hope they all die

[tyboogie]

Kay--thats truly frightening--promise us youll never join the forces

[Lono]

Wow kay,,,, ALL the iraq's??? all of them? even the little baby ones?
statements like that make you look bad.

-Lono

[Happeh]

Don't look surprised guys. 90% of the people I hear talk like that. The power of TV to think for people is frightening.

The Iraqi's are defending their homeland. Those POW's are the invaders.

[egerie]

? What did you think ? Of course there would be POWs ! It's not a friggin' picnic for Pete's sake. :rolleyes: :ahha:

Happeh: I can't decide if it's either scares me or saddens me the most. Both in the end.

[Arlor]

You think America will liberate the Iraq or its people? The only people which will be liberated and relaxed is the jewish people in Israel. Thats why America will come and hunt us; Muslims. Because of that jews which controls your puppet president, we will be killed by your marines. Thats right. Why Turkey couldn't get any of your dirty dollars and economical aid while helping your war machines to destroy Iraq? While Israel gets 10 billion dollars and more for being close ? to Iraq and war. Your president and your country is slave to Israel. There is no shit like liberating the Iraq and its people.
I dont understand American families. Do Bush voters feel any regret while sending their children to the second Vietnam?

[stalecracker]

SO, how do you REALLY feel?

[tyboogie]

so how do the jews in Israel control our president?

[Arlor]

I feel pity for them.

[tyboogie]

that didnt answer my question

[mcotie]

Hey I just watched the mind-sucking news and saw Powell casting stones at Syria, and Iran shit-bagging the UK Embassy. I guess the future of the middle east is this?

http://www.mcotie.com/newimages/newtexas.jpg

I'd like to know what the war experts/ patriots on this forum have to say about the U.S. pidgeon-holing itself into more wars than just the one with Iraq.

Really, I'm not being sarcastic. What do you think about it?

[arkanos]

Am I dreaming or this war makers only show his stupidity?
Can I believe that a war is a "solution" for something?
I believe that the people of a country can do a self revolution against any dictator. Do you remember how the people of America get his liberty from England?
Sorry, It´s my personal opinion.

[Clodhopper]

I think Arlor has a point. seems awfully weird to me how the US supports Isreal. WHY? hes right, America sends more money to Isreal than any other country in the world. what the hell for? and I'd be curious...do you think that the actual people that are "in the loop" of the American government are christian or jewish? i guess theres no way of knowing. but its also weird that America has a free trade arrangement with Canada, Mexico and uh, guess what? Isreal too. of all the nations in the world, why Isreal? things have got to change, America can not be favoring certain arab countries like that-it doesn't make sense to me.

[mcotie]

check this out.

Lost Tribes of Israel ? (http://www.catholic.com/library/Lost_Tribes_of_Israel.asp)

ha ha

[otis]

I'm not big on my isrealie history, but it seems like these people always get shit from everyone. Is it just coincidence, or fate? Why Jews were given a home after WW2, seemed like the right thing, but for all the shit these people will put up with so much amazes me. The world just tried to give these people a "home" after WW2, now why the Palasitinians lost a home,...well, hell..all I can say is it's about time these fucking people learned to love together.
But from what I know about Isreal, there are all types of people living in peace over there. You have muslims living next door to Jews, Palastinieans,Christians etc. Isreal is almost as diverse as the U.S. It just happens to be in the middle of a hornet's nest.
Not all muslims, christians and Jews hate eachother in Isreal.Like i said, that country has all types of religions in it.
It's just too bad politics keep the hatred and fire buring over there. Thanks to Sheron(sp?) and Arafat things will always be fucked.

[otis]

Arlor,
first of all I understand you feelings. Turky gets the short end of the stick with the U.S., and I don't agree with most of our foreign afairs with your country. But don't get so caught up in religious rehtoric. Jews don't control anything except for their own country. We and the international community AGREED to give them a home after WW2. Now if the other countries want to bring up some age old religious war over it, then WAKE UP and GET THE FUCK OT OF THE DARK AGES! The crusades are OVER! The Vatican is not a political power anymore(at least in the U.S.A.) and has no affect on our president. Shit, the Pope has disagreed with Op. Iraqi Freedom from the beginning. I personally see it as a long lived hatred for Muslims, ..but fuck religious politics.

The bottom line is this, (and this may sound idealistic comming from a guy who lives in a great country MADE UP from all types of people around the world)
The middle east is stuck in time. That is the only area in the whole world that still ives under Kings, and monachratic gov'ts. Now the fact that these pathetic gov'ts can't provide for their people who want to live free like the rest of the western world is sad. But I believe that the middle east will change in time. I believe that the great people of the Arab world will start a new life, and maybe even preserve their histroy like England did, by acknowleging their royal families, but having some sort of parliment that represents the people too.

But evil rulers like Saddam must go. People will rise up against ONE MAN, but they will not rise up against a REGEIM.

[otis]

Mitch, lol. I know you weren't being funny, but come on!
Just because we verbally attack other nations doesn't mean we are going to invade them. too much beer??? venting a bit??? What ever your point is, it's way off base.

But throw one down for me if your at it!:beer:

[Clodhopper]

"Iraq is criticized for not abiding by UN resolutions, but Israel is in violation of 68 UN resolutions, many times the number of resolutions that Iraq ignores. In fact, Israel is number one in the world in violations of UN resolutions, with our ally, Turkey, coming in second place."
- Dr. Paul F. Getty, March 24, 2003

also, i found this really disturbing site with some pictures of the iraqi victims. ITS VERY DISTURBING. but its the truth you won't see on CNN.
http://www.marchforjustice.com/id191.htm

"You see people who are tasting, for the first time
in their lives, what freedom is,"
-U.S. Brigadier General Vincent Brooks, CENTCOM Briefing, March 27, 2003

[otis]

Your idea of truth is all messed up buddy. Lets throw up some pictures of what Saddam did to his own people, if you want to talk about truth.

Talk about lies,... that site has it OWN agenda..and obviously you fell for it..hook , line, sinker.

[otis]

One more thing, read the fine print at the bottom bud,..Al Jazeera provided those photos. You know who runs that network??? yours truely, the Hussein brothers.

[Orban]

First thing : Al Jazeera is not from Irak. Their reporter has been throw off the Irak too. Al Jazeera is the most important television(information?) canal in the Middle East, punto. More or less like CNN in the US and some other country(you export it pretty well since I have it on my tv. But I prefer Euronews :D).
What make me smile(but not of joy) is the fact that the 500 actual(or more? I don't have look the information right now, busy checking my hardware) victims of the war are given to Saddam. Erhm. Saddam hasn't fire on his people with tank, nor has ordered American soldier to fire on civilian... nor launch some bomb on them. I hate this kind of hypocrisy in time of war : you do error, ok, assume them. Don't say like a kid 'it's not my fault, it's the other'.
Saddam is evil yeah. He has tortured the iraki people, and in many many many way. But why are the American victims his? ;) With this kind of way, we can accuse him of eveything in the world.
Clodhopper search too for China, it must be impressive too... no freedom of speech, no liberty, everything you do is watch, murder was(is?) a way to eliminate 'problem' and so on. But they are 1 600 000 000 people, nobody can 'free' them like Irak. Or Tibet... lot of example to fit here :(

[gallon]

Mh, swedish state television (public service televison) had a five hour war special today, and not about the iraq war , just war in general, and especielly how media report war.

That the "recieving" is showing the results of war , showing casualties and death to civilians and often using images of christlike heroes. The attackers are instead showing the heroism of their soldiers for the home viewers, not trying to remind them of the horrors of war.
Very basic really. The defneding side wants sympathy , and want their people to stay motivated to fight the "evil" enemy, and wants to show their normal people that are trying to rid their home and country of the invading force, the attackers are dependant of their people thinking the war is just and right, and that they are winning, and that the war is justifed because the enemy is "a big threat". '
Watching just one side of these media reports is going to give you a "image" that might be far from truth. In fact many people in Iraq and the middle east try to watch both "sides" media reports to get a more true and accurate image.

And the al-jazeera is not at all liked in many parts of the arabic world, and I ´have hard to think that the Hussein family owns 'em.

[silent Insanity]

http://demo.sakhr.com/diwan/emain/Story_Of_Kuwait/Occupation/media/sk-occup-crime-pic34.jpg
Iraqi troops did not even consider the premature babies who needed special care. Iraqis buried 125 babies in Al-Reqqa graveyard and more than 150 babies in various places around it. They also took all the premature babies out of the incubators all over Kuwait and sent the incubators to Iraq. This resulted in the death of those babies

March 16th 1988- Chemical attack on Halabja 5000 killed 7,000 injured or with long tem illness
Sep 1980-August 1988- 300,000+


During the invasion of Kuwait. In a statement made to Amnesty International, a physician working for the Red Crescent stated “Since the middle of August, our medical center has received 4-5 bodies every day and on days the toll was up to 10 bodies.

According to reports of Amnesty International, hundreds were executed without trial starting August 2, 1990, in the same way as described by the Red Crescent physician. Others were shot dead in public by firing squads without any prior legal action.

http://demo.sakhr.com/diwan/emain/Story_Of_Kuwait/Occupation/media/sk-occup-crime-pic31.jpg
Samples of the tools used for torturing people in the Kuwiati and Iraqi prisons

British forces in southern Iraq have found hundreds of boxes containing human remains in a warehouse near Zubayr.200 coffin-sized boxes "contain bags, each labeled, and there's human remains inside the bags.

[Clodhopper]

Otis, do you just post to give me shit? i'm not going to aknowlege much more of it.

Gallon, I would say I'm trying to see both sides to this conflict to obtain a better understanding thats not slanted one way or the other-that discribes me well. But its damn hard in America. everything and everyone wants to tell me that we are "saving" the iraqi people, like we are fighting evil like you said..and so its hard to get a view from the other side-at least here in the US-unless you speak another language. I wish we had swedish newscasters on CNN. cuase as it stands now, everything i see on television is a showcase of American heroism. we must look so foolish in the eyes of the rest of the world, yes?

[mcotie]

no otis, I was being funny. Or trying to anyway. :beer:

[arkanos]

I can´t tell you how worried I am about this war.
This war haven´t any logic explanation.
I´ve read that Colin Powell reaffirm that irak don´t obey 1441 resolution. And that is the motive or a part for this war, the rest is to back irqi people to democracy!! Is true that irak don´t obey a dozen of UN resolutions in the last twelve years, but near of 100 resolutions of the security council of UN neither was obbey by Morocco, Turkey, Armenia, Croatia, Pakistan, India, Indonesia and Sudan, and they haven´t any attack from allies or US goverment . But I´ve read this too (the next that I´ll post is not against jewish people, is just to illustrate that injustice)
Since 1940 Israel, don´t obbey near of 40 resolutions, let me to continue... neither obey the next numbers resolutions ordered by year: 252 (1968), 267 (1969), 271 (1969), 298 (1971),262 (1968), 497 (1981), 573 (1985), 672, (1990).
In the majority of cases, US support Israel, and when don´t support them, Israel don´t obey nothing and nothing happened!!
Please, check numbers of resolutions in the web so you can read about what is. I don´t support any dictator, but Bush isn´t far to be one!

[otis]

Clodhopper,

no man, I'm not trying to give you shit, I just disagree with you sometimes. I throw out agruements in hopes i could learn somthing. we are all worried and concerned about the war, and I think I understand your stance or thought. I just think that if you have some good solutions you should bring them up, and explain how they would work. Cuase in my opinion, as much as i wish it wasn't true, I think that a man or regiem like Saddam will not just "obey" or "get along", or even "listen" to what the rest of the world wants him to do. Neither did hitler, Mousolini, Stalin, ..etc . But if you can think of a way to make it all work out with out resorting to force....I'm all ears.

[otis]

mitch, I don't know if you guys think I come off too serious, but as i explained to Clod, I just throw out points, in hopes of learning somthing.I am always open to other ideas and always trying to learn. to say the least i'm not idealistic or as others think "rightouse".
If you knew me, you would never believe I was so into debates! lol!

:chug:

[mcotie]

Otis I know what you mean. I can't stand debating. My wife loves it! and often I'd just as well would rather walk a way from an argument than participate in one. I think due to the fact of my younger days where, rather than argue, I'd much rather shove a hand full of knuckles into the other guys mouth, to avoid an argument. ( that doesn't make much sense). But I feel it's easier to "talk" about these things if all I have to do is hit the back button or go to a different web site and think about what I'm saying a little bit. Plus, I'm so torn about this war thing that I end up talking shit to myself, way too often.
Many of the things you have said since we began debating have shed light on some areas I wasn't aware of. Hopefully I have done the same for you and others. I think that's what is beneficial about all of this smack talking we do here. I appreciate it. Even though I think your a .... just kidding.

I love this country, I'm glad and fortunate to be from here. I've been to a shit load of other countries and like some things about other countries better than I like about the U.S. (French beaches a re waaaay better), but would never replace it. I'm from New Orleans, but it doesn't mean I would live there. It's a great place to visit. Hel, I lived the first years of my adult life in Germany and Europe, so it will always be a sort of home for me. But the U.S. is where I hang my hat. I'm just concerned about the good ol' U.S.'s future, that's why I complain about the goings on.

i've rambled on too much.

mitch

[otis]

I hear you Miitch. I too spent a good time over in France. I made many friends overe there, love the cultire, the people, and of course the women. But I don't think there is another place in the world that can compare to the U.S. The one thing that scares me about our country somtimes is how big it is getting everyday. It blows my mind to think how many people come to this country every day to start a new life. But I have faith in our sytem that our forefathers set up. Even if the people don't know how our system works (electoral college etc.) I hope it never changes. It may not be perfect, but show me a country that does it better.

Yeah, I think we all take somthing back to chew on from these forums. At least i look foward to the time I do. But in the end, the public will never understand the whole picture, no matter what war or conflict we get into. I just laugh somtimes, how over sensitive,& reactive we all get today. Think about it: We all get so hyperactive over a conflict or war today! We didn't even want to enter the WW2 before half of Europe was already gone in 1942! the Japanes had to bomb us before we would enter any war! lol!

I think that is hyper-sensitve, hyper-news coverage, and communicatons, is making this world seem much smaller. So when Saddam farts, we all get nervous and throw on our gas masks.

ok..I'll stop here...
:D

[franz]

Good read, Gore at NYU: http://www.moveon.org/gore-speech.html

Much easier to read when you resize your browser window to roughly half the width of your monitor.

Sweating at 104°F,
franz

[Erik]

Nice. But he does write it too intelligent. He should try and use demagogery (sp?) too like his adversaries. Cut half the words out and leave the message.

Still : nice to hear from American opposition every once in a while. They don;t get much press over here.

[bat]

As I had chimed in on that piece in the other thread, I will chime in here.

I have lived in a Muslim country (Indonesia) where I worked as an English teacher and sold art in my own shop. (I am from Idaho and stuck out like a sore thumb overseas). The point to my opening statement is that, although not politically correct, the Nation of Islam is an expansionist movement. I lived through a war there that, although not official, I saw people butchered for their ethnicity (Chinese people in Sumatra). I saw teenage prostitutes that had AIDS, that their fathers had sacrificed to give the disease to Chinese males. Many of these guys had stables of native girl prostitutes that they were proud of, they did not believe in using protection. It was a brutal world, so far removed from America, where life was quite a precious, and often short, gift. A lot of people act like seeing someone killed is cool, it is disgusting, especially when seeing someone killed over their skin. I was raised to not see a difference in people, and was offended when I heard a racial slur, after seeing people die for their race, I know that worse things than slinging words happen. This was before it was in the media in America in 1996, when I heard that there were upsrisings in Indonesia after I was back, I knew things had become really bad. And Indonesia is pretty lax on many points of Islamic law (I drank beer in public, most women did not wear coverings, etc).

My girlfriend is from Spain. Whenever she returns to visit her family, she says that more and more of Madrid has become Muslim. In a recent poll, 80% of the people answering the polled claimed to not have been born in Spain. Eighty percent! That is higher than America. Most of these people were from Morrocco.

I believe that although being handled in an inept manner, the war is a necessity and is happening for other reasons. Many of the countries that mock America are unconcerned (it is easier for the leaders to get support by turning away and not helping others out, is this about right and wrong, or getting support in the next election?) or point to oil as a major factor. I say, look deeper. The Koran does say to convert or destroy non-believers, and although the Bible says to stone witches, there are groups of people that stick to the old ways and take these words quite literally. When these books were written, one must remember that the Muslim faith and Christianity were fledgling cults before becoming full blown religions. Times, and society, change.

Having said this, I do want to point out that however it may sound, I am not a racist and do have Muslim friends. From my life experiences, I also believe that there is an agenda from certain members of the Nation of Islam that do want control (the American Nation of Islam is one such group, and Farrakhan stated after 9/11 that it was a wake-up call from Allah). Political Correctness has shackled many people's minds, and is actually detrimental to society, in my opinion, as, instead of actually teaching people about different ethinicites, it forces everyone into a mold (my friends from Africa are called African-American, why? Just because they are black?) rather than educating people about people's backgrounds. You can shout all you want that this conflict is over oil, but when the opposition has stated that this is a holy war and we must be destroyed (well before the Iraq debacle) it is time to unplug from the machine and think for yourself.

In the end, this isn't about us, if you travel around, you will see that people are really just people everywhere. We are all the same. But when people with agendas and backing start to sway others to their point of view, whether religious or political, problems start. I have met thousands and thousands of people and what never ceases to amaze me is that fundamentally, we are all really the same. It is too bad all the religious leaders and governments have to stick their noses into everyone's business. So what if France opposed the war. This wasn't the average person, who knows how the majority of people feel about it? And who cares? Why bash any nation because of what its politicians say? Bush didn't call me and ask me how I feel about sending people to Iraq.


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