Why do I get diferent results mixing colors in Painter than I get with real acrilycs?

[brokk]

Hi. Just a color question.

The past week I've been practicing painting with acrilics, I'm using cobalt blue, cadmium yellow and cadmium red as my three primaries.
When I mix yellow and blue, 50-50, I get a nice green. When I mix green with yellow, 50-50, I get a nice yellow green, etc, same for violet with red and blue, and all that.

When I try to do this with Painter I get diferent results, I mix a blue that I think looks like cobalt and a yellow that looks like cadmium onto the mixer, but I get this weird greyish color, it looks nothing like green. It looks like a very grayed olive green. When I mix green and add a little bit of red with real acrilics, I get an olive green. But when I do that in painter it looks diferent.

Another problem is mixing a color with its compliment in painter. In real acrilics I just add a little bit of the complimentary color to make the color less brilliant, but in Painter the same aparent mix just looks diferent. Why?

Why does this happen, and how can I correct it? What should I be doing diferently?

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read and respond, please.

[Jin]

Basically, the difference is that using digital media, you're working with light, not pigment as you do using traditional media.

Painter works only with RGB color, though two file formats can be saved from Painter using CMYK: TIFF and Photoshop's PSD format.

To get green, the most common ways are to mix yellow and cyan or to pick a green directly from the Colors palette.

In the demo below, you'll see two greens mixed using first cobalt blue/cadmium yellow then yellow/cyan, an olive green using light green/red picked from the Mixer palette's default color swatches, then a shot of the Colors palette showing where this olive green falls on the Hue Ring and Saturation/Value Triangle.

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/mixing_greens_and_olive_gre.jpg

You'll need to experiment to get other color mixes you want, but often it's easier to pick the color you want from the Painter Color palette by moving the small circle on the Hue Ring and then moving the small circle on the Saturation/Value Triangle up or down to determine value and left or right to determine saturation.

In Painter 8 and Painter IX, we can mix colors using the Mixer palette, then pick a single color using the Mixer palette's Sample Color dropper. Using the new Painter IX Artist's Oils variants, we can pick colors using the Mixer palette's Sample Multiple Colors dropper (icon at the bottom of the Mixer palette with a circle around the dropper's tip, also new in Painter IX), then paint with those multiple colors in the brushstroke.

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/sample_multiple_colors_AOdry_bristle.jpg


Jinny

[Aberrant]

I want to add that saying that painter works with RGB color is a bit misleading. Your monitor works with RGB color, but painter works with CMY color. You might save in an RGB format but in terms of how colors interact in painter it's another story. RGB is an additive color model, a pixel on your screen could be made to show all 3 of these colors and you'd see white. In painter you'd get black, because it's using a subtractive color model.

Blue contains the "primary" colors cyan and magenta, and yellow is the third "primary" according to how painter thinks. Since all 3 colors are being mixed and it's using a subtractive approach you get black - keep mixing on the mixer and you'll eventually get pure black with blue and yellow. When you mix any 2 of the 3 primaries (cyan, magenta, yellow) you'll get a nice bright secondary color (red, green, or blue), because one of the 3 primaries is always missing so it can't be subtracted from what you see. Any time you mix colors that contain all 3 of them your value and saturation will drop, it'll turn dark and dull.

Please correct me if I'm wrong! Some of this stuff I'm sure is fact but how it applies to painter is just how I see painter working.

[Jin]

While Cyan Magenta and Yellow are displayed in Painter's Colors palette, rather than the traditional color wheel's red, yellow, and blue, in Painter, color is specified in RGB (red, green, blue) and/or HSV (hue, saturation, value).

Click the small box in the lower right corner of the Colors palette to toggle between HSV values and RGB values.

Look in the Color Info palette to see the RGB sliders or from the Color Info palette's menu, choose Display as HSV to see the HSV sliders.

Painter's RIFF files can only be saved in RGB.

The only two file formats that can be saved from Painter in either RGB or CMYK are TIFF and PSD. When a file saved in CMYK is reopened in Painter, it's again worked on with RGB colors, not CMYK which is not an option in Painter as it is in Photoshop.

So, though my explanation may have been oversimplified, I think it's fair to say Painter works in RGB color space.

That's why people often take their Painter work into Photoshop to convert it to CMYK and do any needed color tweaking before printing.

One really good professional Painter illustrator, Tim Jessell, has painstakingly created a CMYK Color Set to use in Painter. He says it saves him a lot of time he would otherwise spend adjusting colors in Photoshop once the image is completed. At the very least it gets him a lot closer to something that will print color reliably and some other Painter illustrators have also begun using this Color Set.

You can download Tim's CMYK Color Set at the bottom of this page on Sandman's site:

Tim's CMYK Compatible Color Set (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.gell/Pages/Guest_Resources.html)


Jinny

[Aberrant]

Yeah, we're not on the same page here... I agree with all you've said, I think we're both right. What I'm talking about is the color model that painter uses when mixing colors, not the format it saves the data in or what the sliders use.

RGB is an additive color model... red and green together will give you yellow. THe more of the 3 primaries you add the lighter the color gets, right? I'm sure you know how the 0-255 values work (sorry if I'm condecending, just trying to be clear), the higher they get the lighter, until at 255,255,255 you have white. Clearly an additive model. Definately nothing like what painter's mixer uses. Try taking straight red with 100% sat/val (255,0,0) and mixing with 100% green (0,255,0)... if it were mixing colors according to RGB you'd get yellow (255,255,0), just like your monitor and your TV do because they work with projected light. You sure don't get yellow in painter!

Instead it performs exactly like the subtractive CMY color model. In this model green contains both yellow and cyan, 2 primaries. Mix it with red, which contains magenta, and you're mixing all the primaries together which means the color will get darker. In fact you'll get pure black on the mixer.

For another example take cyan (RGB 0,255,255) and magenta (RGB 255,0,255) and mix them in painter. If we were using RGB we would get white, but painter gives us a nice bright blue, which is consistent with CMY.

I guess that's about as good as I could explain my thoughts on it, I like talking about it with you though, I can tell you know painter inside and out and it's really cool of you to share all that knowledge up here. And of course I don't want to sound like a know it all, cause this isn't something I read in the painter IX user's guide, it's just my own thoughts on what color model it's using.

[Aberrant]

I was just checking out that link, thanks for the resource. I think though that what he's doing there is providing a set of colors that keeps you within the limitations of CMYK format. Theres some colors that can't be displayed in some color models, so I think what this set prevents is using an RGB color that can't be reproduced in CMYK... normally when converting to CMYK the RGB color would have to be changed, but if the colors stay to ones from this set then CMYK can handle it all and no wierd shit happens to the colors.

None of it changes what model painter uses to mix colors though.

[brokk]

Jin and Aberrant, thanks for the considerate replies guys.

My original concern was creating color harmony in Painter as if it was based on pigment instead of light, but like Aberrant said, the mixes just turn out dull. I definatly need to look for a light color wheel and start learning on how light color works.

Jin, what I thought Painter did, was take for example diferent colors like red, blue, and yellow, and treat them as if they weren't light colors. Let me express this better: I thought Painter had an internal program of some sort that coded every color and that gave individual specific properties to each color, so when you mixed those, instead of mixing them as if they were light colors, it would mix them as if they were pigment. For example, when mixing light colors cyan and magenta, instead of getting white with RGB or light blue with CMYK like Aberrant used in his example, I thought those colors had somehow codified properties to act like pigment colors, so the mixture would actually give you a result you would get in pigments, like a blue violet tint, or a light bluish violet.
I dont know if such a thing exists but wouldnt be cool if it did? If it does exist, tell me where I can get it! ; P

What I thought about doing, maybe this is whack, is setting up a color wheel with acrilics and then scanning it, and when using Painter, just use the eyedropper tool and select the scanned colors, and paint directly with those. But based on what you guys said before, the mixture of these scanned colors in painter would work as light mixtures and thus would still give different results.

My best bet is to start learning light color I guess.

[brokk]

Jin I haven't tried experimenting with Painter yet and using the examples you first posted as guides, but I will get to it as soon as I can, and post back how it went.

[Elwell]

Jin, what I thought Painter did, was take for example diferent colors like red, blue, and yellow, and treat them as if they weren't light colors. Let me express this better: I thought Painter had an internal program of some sort that coded every color and that gave individual specific properties to each color, so when you mixed those, instead of mixing them as if they were light colors, it would mix them as if they were pigment. For example, when mixing light colors cyan and magenta, instead of getting white with RGB or light blue with CMYK like Aberrant used in his example, I thought those colors had somehow codified properties to act like pigment colors, so the mixture would actually give you a result you would get in pigments, like a blue violet tint, or a light bluish violet.
I dont know if such a thing exists but wouldnt be cool if it did? If it does exist, tell me where I can get it! ; P

It doesn't, simply because real pigments are infinitely more complicated than that. For instance, you can have two colors that look identical out of the tube, yet behave totally differently in mixtures. You can have pigments that, due to different reflectance curves, look the same under some light and different under others. And of course almost every color is different when lightened with white than when thinned to transparency.

[Jin]

Yeah, we're not on the same page here... I agree with all you've said, I think we're both right. What I'm talking about is the color model that painter uses when mixing colors, not the format it saves the data in or what the sliders use.

RGB is an additive color model... red and green together will give you yellow.


I'm not sure how you'd get yellow. If you mix red and green in the Mixer palette, you'll get something very dark, close to black, and certainly not yellow.


THe more of the 3 primaries you add the lighter the color gets, right?


Not in my Painter IX or any other version. As with mixing red and green in the Mixer palette, when I mix red, green, and blue, I get something close to black, and certainly not a lighter color.

If you mean that when you move the RGB sliders all to 255 that you get white, that's true.

Back to "mixing" red and green to get yellow:

If you move the R and G sliders roughly halfway to the right, to 126, you get a very dark yellow with the small circle on the Saturation/Value triangle at about the mid point on the bottom edge of the triangle.



I'm sure you know how the 0-255 values work (sorry if I'm condecending, just trying to be clear), the higher they get the lighter, until at 255,255,255 you have white.


Yes, see above.


Clearly an additive model. Definately nothing like what painter's mixer uses.


No, not like what the Mixer palette does, or how paint is mixed on the image which is what a lot of artists do. That is, "physically" mix their colors on the Canvas, a Layer, or in the Mixer palette rather than using numbers, though many artists do prefer to use either RGB sliders or HSV sliders.


Try taking straight red with 100% sat/val (255,0,0) and mixing with 100% green (0,255,0)... if it were mixing colors according to RGB you'd get yellow (255,255,0), just like your monitor and your TV do because they work with projected light. You sure don't get yellow in painter!


Choosing red by moving the RGB sliders to R:255 G:0 B:0 then painting on the Mixer palette, then choosing green by moving the RGB sliders to R:0 G:255 B:0 and painting in the Mixer palette, then mixing those two colors in the Mixer palette, again, we don't get yellow but instead something close to black.

By moving both the RGB sliders to R:255 G:255 B:0, we do get yellow.

Either way, we're using RGB color settings. In one scenario, we're "physically" mixing the colors. In the other scenario, we're adjusting the RGB sliders to a particular color... yellow in this case.


Instead it performs exactly like the subtractive CMY color model. In this model green contains both yellow and cyan, 2 primaries. Mix it with red, which contains magenta, and you're mixing all the primaries together which means the color will get darker. In fact you'll get pure black on the mixer.


That you will, or something very close to black with an insignificant difference from black.


For another example take cyan (RGB 0,255,255) and magenta (RGB 255,0,255) and mix them in painter. If we were using RGB we would get white, but painter gives us a nice bright blue, which is consistent with CMY.


I think one of the main problems in our finding agreement is that I don't think of setting the RGB sliders as "mixing" color but instead setting a particular, single color.

To me, "mixing" refers to "physically" blending/mixing two or more colors on the Canvas or a Layer using one of the brush variants, or in the Mixer palette using the Mixer palette brush (Apply Color icon) or palette knife (Mix Color icon).


I guess that's about as good as I could explain my thoughts on it, I like talking about it with you though, I can tell you know painter inside and out and it's really cool of you to share all that knowledge up here. And of course I don't want to sound like a know it all, cause this isn't something I read in the painter IX user's guide, it's just my own thoughts on what color model it's using.

;)

Even if you had read it in the Painter IX User Guide or Help > Help Topics, the information there is not always clear or even accurate. I've found many errors and oversimplifications that lead to great misunderstanding on the part of users who rely on that information being accurate. A good example is that in one or more of the User Guides, it says that (paraphrased) setting your image Resolution (PPI) is the same as dots per inch.

That is simply not a clear, or even true statement. You should see the hullaballoo that ensued when I brought that subject up on the digital-fineart list at Yahoo! Groups and asked for an expert, indisputable, clear, and understandable explanation of the differences and relationships between PPI used when creating digital images and DPI used in relation to printing.

There have, since that day, May 6 2005, been several long threads with several experts arguing the points and, as you and I have done in this thread, expressing their understanding and ..... finallly.. coming closer to agreement and clarification. That subject is very complex and there's a huge amount of misinformation and misunderstanding spread around.

This has been a good discussion for both of us, and probably for others to read it as well, so let's not consider either of us a "know it all". When these kinds of discussions take place in an atmosphere of good will, everyone wins.

By the way, if you'd like to read the discussion to which I referred above on the digital fineart list, begin with this thread and plan to do a good bit of reading as the discussion branches off into several other threads as well... it's full of interesting and useful information that anyone planning to print their images would benefit from if the read all of the posts to the "end" (if that ever comes):

PPI and DPI Numbers Relationships and Differences - My Initial Post on the digital-fineart List at Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digital-fineart/message/33399)

By the way, the digital-fineart list is focused, obviously, on digital art and printing digital fine art issues, questions, etc. A lot of the members are professionals, and one especially knowledgable member is Harald Johnson, author of Mastering Digital Printing, Second Edition (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/002-1489597-7456821) available at Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble online, and in many good bookstores.



Jinny

[Aberrant]

This is getting pretty lengthy, but I think it really deserves some in depth analysis.

No, not like what the Mixer palette does, or how paint is mixed on the image which is what a lot of artists do.

So I think we're in agreement that 'physically' mixing 2 colors in painter doesn't work like the RGB sliders, right? Even though along with HSV that's how it represents specific colors and stores them, it's not the model it uses when 2 colors are 'physically' mixed. So what I'm trying to find out is what color model painter is using to mix colors on the mixer, or on the canvas.

Choosing red by moving the RGB sliders to R:255 G:0 B:0 then painting on the Mixer palette, then choosing green by moving the RGB sliders to R:0 G:255 B:0 and painting in the Mixer palette, then mixing those two colors in the Mixer palette, again, we don't get yellow but instead something close to black.

By moving both the RGB sliders to R:255 G:255 B:0, we do get yellow.

Either way, we're using RGB color settings. In one scenario, we're "physically" mixing the colors. In the other scenario, we're adjusting the RGB sliders to a particular color... yellow in this case.

I don't follow... if they were both mixing colors according to the same model then they should give the same result in the mixer and in the RGB sliders. One yields yellow, the other yields greys or black. It has to be two fundamentally different approaches to color mixing. I'm not thinking about how you/painter defines the color with the dropper or whatever, I'm talking about the way the colors mix together.

I think one of the main problems in our finding agreement is that I don't think of setting the RGB sliders as "mixing" color but instead setting a particular, single color.

No, that's exactly how I think of it too. Mixing colors I think of completely differently, so differently that I don't think it even uses the same color model as the RGB sliders.

To me, "mixing" refers to "physically" blending/mixing two or more colors on the Canvas or a Layer using one of the brush variants, or in the Mixer palette using the Mixer palette brush (Apply Color icon) or palette knife (Mix Color icon).

I think so too, so we have terminology straight.

Basically I see 3 main color models that painter could be using to mix (mix = above definition) colors. THey are:

RGB - additive model, the more color mixed the closer to white it gets
primaries - red, green, blue
secondaries - cyan, magenta, yellow
Mixing complements results in white, or a very light neutral (grey) color

CMY - subtractive, the more color mixed gets closer to black
primaries - cyan, magenta, yellow
secondaries - red, green, blue
mixing complements results in black, or a very dark muddy brown color

This is what traditional painters and broken_spirit are used to (it uses different complementaries but real paint seems to act according to it):

RBY - subtractive, adding colors gets closer to black, or in practice brown
primaries - red, blue, yellow
secondaries - violet, green, orange
mixing complements results in darker grey/brown

And finally this is how I see painter mixing colors followed by how each color model would mix them:

Cyan + magenta = blue in painter
(CMY would equal blue, RGB would equal white, RBY would equal a mess)

Blue + yellow = grey/black in painter
(CMY=black, RGB=white, RBY=green)

Because of the this 2nd one we can pretty much rule out RBY, even though it's maybe close to real paint mixing it's obviously not what painter uses, the color wheel isn't even set up to show the complements correctly for this model.

Red + green = grey/black in painter
(CMY=black, RGB=yellow, RBY=dirty mess)

Green + blue = grey/black in painter
(CMY=black, RGB=cyan, RBY=greenish blue since it doesn't show cyan very well)

Red + blue = grey/black in painter
(CMY=black, RGB=magenta, RBY=violet)

Theres the 3 RGB primaries, all 3 react to mixing in painter consistent with CMY, and none of them are consistent with RGB. Now heres the 3 CMY primaries:

Cyan + magenta = blue
(CMY=blue, RGB=white, RBY=doesn't even have these colors with any accuracy but would give a dirty blue)

Magenta + yellow = red
(CMY=red, RGB=white, RBY=mess)

Yellow + cyan = green
(CMY=green, RGB=white, RBY=light green, this model doesn't even really have a cyan though)

It looks like painter mixes the 3 CMY primaries exactly like CMY would, and unlike the way RGB would in every case. I'm not sure why painter ignored the RBY color model, because it's supposed to emulate traditional media I would have thought they'd use blue+yellow=green, but I'm sure there are reasons why they went with CMY instead. A lot of people consider RBY "wrong".

Maybe we can get some other opinions on this, I just came to this "painter=CMY" conclusion after reading this post but the more I looked into it the more I'm convinced that painter uses pure CMY on the mixer. On the canvas it's a little different, it acts more like real paint giving you greys when you keep adding complementaries rather than black, but it's still consistent with CMY.

This whole thing is VERY important to painting in painter though! This is so basic and so important to understand how colors are being mixed in the program, I'm really glad I played around with it and figured it out. At least, I think I figured it out, hehe.

Even if you had read it in the Painter IX User Guide or Help > Help Topics, the information there is not always clear or even accurate. I've found many errors and oversimplifications

It's the same across the board for software unfortunately, I used to use macromedia director/flash and it was sooooo bad for outright errors all over the place... code that wouldn't even run cut/paste right from the manual.

By the way, if you'd like to read the discussion to which I referred above on the digital fineart list

Cool, thanks for another good link.

[Jin]

This is getting pretty lengthy, but I think it really deserves some in depth analysis.

So I think we're in agreement that 'physically' mixing 2 colors in painter doesn't work like the RGB sliders, right? Even though along with HSV that's how it represents specific colors and stores them, it's not the model it uses when 2 colors are 'physically' mixed. So what I'm trying to find out is what color model painter is using to mix colors on the mixer, or on the canvas.


To make sure it's understood when reading my posts:

Mixing = blending/smearing two or more colors either on the Canvas, a Layer, or in the Mixer palette.

Adjusting the RGB or HSV sliders = moving those sliders to result in a single color.

No, mixing colors doesn't work like adjusting the sliders.

One obvious reason, again, is that mixing colors involves two or more colors.

Adjusting the sliders, on the other hand.... and from the users' standpoint... results in a single color (no matter what is done "behind the scenes" by the program to result in that single color).


I don't follow... if they were both mixing colors according to the same model then they should give the same result in the mixer and in the RGB sliders. One yields yellow, the other yields greys or black. It has to be two fundamentally different approaches to color mixing. I'm not thinking about how you/painter defines the color with the dropper or whatever, I'm talking about the way the colors mix together.


I can't give you a clear and accurate answer from the "scientific" or Painter developer's point of view, only from a user's point of view including things I've learned over a decade of using Painter and working with both other users and people at Fractal Design, Metacreations, and Corel.

What I'll say from my own experience and understanding is that comparing the two ways of coming up with color is like comparing apples and oranges. They both result in a new color but the "raw materials" used are not the same, nor is the method the same.

One is mixing two or more colors to come up with a new color (or multiple new colors).

The other is setting controls to come up with a new, single (and only single) color.


No, that's exactly how I think of it too. Mixing colors I think of completely differently, so differently that I don't think it even uses the same color model as the RGB sliders.


Whether or not it uses the same color model, the process is different and we can... and should if we think about it... expect a different result. (See above.)


I think so too, so we have terminology straight.


As long as we refrain from describing adjusting the RGB or HSV sliders as "mixong", we'll have the terminology at least less confusing and probably more accurate for all intents and purposes when explaining things to the Painter user.... who most often is not interested in, nor does he/she need to know, the "scientific" or programming details that go on behind the scenes. They most often are interested in, and need to know, how to use Painter to get the results they're after.


Basically I see 3 main color models that painter could be using to mix (mix = above definition) colors. THey are:

RGB - additive model, the more color mixed the closer to white it gets
primaries - red, green, blue
secondaries - cyan, magenta, yellow
Mixing complements results in white, or a very light neutral (grey) color

CMY - subtractive, the more color mixed gets closer to black
primaries - cyan, magenta, yellow
secondaries - red, green, blue
mixing complements results in black, or a very dark muddy brown color


I'd not use "CMY" as the second model (if, in fact, there exists a second model), because the potential colors mixed include far more than cyan, magenta, and yellow. They can, potentially, include any RGB color found in the Colors palette, including black and white. In otherwords, any color in RGB color space.


This is what traditional painters and broken_spirit are used to (it uses different complementaries but real paint seems to act according to it):

RBY - subtractive, adding colors gets closer to black, or in practice brown
primaries - red, blue, yellow
secondaries - violet, green, orange
mixing complements results in darker grey/brown

And finally this is how I see painter mixing colors followed by how each color model would mix them:

Cyan + magenta = blue in painter
(CMY would equal blue, RGB would equal white, RBY would equal a mess)

Blue + yellow = grey/black in painter
(CMY=black, RGB=white, RBY=green)

Because of the this 2nd one we can pretty much rule out RBY, even though it's maybe close to real paint mixing it's obviously not what painter uses, the color wheel isn't even set up to show the complements correctly for this model.

Red + green = grey/black in painter
(CMY=black, RGB=yellow, RBY=dirty mess)

Green + blue = grey/black in painter
(CMY=black, RGB=cyan, RBY=greenish blue since it doesn't show cyan very well)

Red + blue = grey/black in painter
(CMY=black, RGB=magenta, RBY=violet)

Theres the 3 RGB primaries, all 3 react to mixing in painter consistent with CMY, and none of them are consistent with RGB. Now heres the 3 CMY primaries:

Cyan + magenta = blue
(CMY=blue, RGB=white, RBY=doesn't even have these colors with any accuracy but would give a dirty blue)

Magenta + yellow = red
(CMY=red, RGB=white, RBY=mess)

Yellow + cyan = green
(CMY=green, RGB=white, RBY=light green, this model doesn't even really have a cyan though)

It looks like painter mixes the 3 CMY primaries exactly like CMY would, and unlike the way RGB would in every case. I'm not sure why painter ignored the RBY color model, because it's supposed to emulate traditional media I would have thought they'd use blue+yellow=green, but I'm sure there are reasons why they went with CMY instead. A lot of people consider RBY "wrong".

Maybe we can get some other opinions on this, I just came to this "painter=CMY" conclusion after reading this post but the more I looked into it the more I'm convinced that painter uses pure CMY on the mixer. On the canvas it's a little different, it acts more like real paint giving you greys when you keep adding complementaries rather than black, but it's still consistent with CMY.

This whole thing is VERY important to painting in painter though! This is so basic and so important to understand how colors are being mixed in the program, I'm really glad I played around with it and figured it out. At least, I think I figured it out, hehe.



It's the same across the board for software unfortunately, I used to use macromedia director/flash and it was sooooo bad for outright errors all over the place... code that wouldn't even run cut/paste right from the manual.



Cool, thanks for another good link.

Sorry, but I don't have time to respond to this last section of your post as I need to finish up reading messages that I can answer quickly, then get offline to run some errands that have been neglected far too long.

Maybe I'll find time later to come back to this discussion but for now, I'll have to wait and see.

It's been interesting, to be sure, and thanks for your input.


Jinny

[brokk]

Hey guys this went way over my leage several posts ago, and now I'm sorta butting in, but I found these color wheels, can you guys take a peek and tell me if they are ok? One of them doesn't look very serious because of the statements the author makes, but maybe he's right

http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/colorwheel.htm
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/jpgchartssm.htm
These are the one that seems rather dubious to me.

http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-wheel-types.html
This one seems more credible.

Ok so I havent really done much exploring, but am I on the right track here?
Thanks again.

[Elwell]

http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/colorwheel.htm
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/jpgchartssm.htm
These are the one that seems rather dubious to me.
Go with your gut. Avoid Don Jusko at all costs.

[Aberrant]

Butting into your own thread? The nerve...

I think Don Jusko sounds like an infomercial. Not only that but he keeps talking about "pigment", I think his color wheel is supposed to be for mixing paint, but it uses the "true" layout of complementaries like RGB/CMY. Most artists that mix paint use the traditional red-blue-yellow color wheel for mixing.

He talks about yellow and cyan taking on green as they get darker in color wheels that aren't his, I don't get that part. The only thing I can figure is that he's talking about the tendency of black (and white) pigments to be blue-based, so if you're shading a color with black it'll shift towards blue, which would turn yellow green. Maybe I'm misunderstanding or maybe he's full of shit. Personally I'd ignore everything he says.

[Elwell]

I think Don Jusko sounds like an infomercial.
Exactly, but some strange, Bizarro-world infomercial where half the time you can't even figure out what the hell they're trying to sell you.
His site is 20% right, 30% wrong, and 50% just plain incoherent.

[brokk]

Butting into your own thread? The nerve...
Sure, its not like I own the thread or anything... its public domain : P

This whole thing is VERY important to painting in painter though! This is so basic and so important to understand how colors are being mixed in the program, I'm really glad I played around with it and figured it out. At least, I think I figured it out, hehe.
Hey that is a great guide you posted! This is exactly what I was looking for! Now I can check what color models produce what results, what color mixed with a compliment gives as a result and such! Thank you!

Go with your gut. Avoid Don Jusko at all costs.
Yeah... it got weird for me when he said it was the only "real" color wheel in the world or something like that : S

Hey Elwell I didnt get back to you before, I see what you mean with your first post. I thought you could make light behave like pigment somehow.
Hey off the topic, I really like that painting you made about that person with tentacles instead of hairs.

[brokk]

It looks like painter mixes the 3 CMY primaries exactly like CMY would, and unlike the way RGB would in every case. I'm not sure why painter ignored the RBY color model, because it's supposed to emulate traditional media I would have thought they'd use blue+yellow=green, but I'm sure there are reasons why they went with CMY instead. A lot of people consider RBY "wrong".

Yeah thats what I thought painter used, the RBY model, since it emulates traditional paints. Oh, so it "could" include a RBY model. Maybe CMY has something to do with printing (bare with me if I'm saying nonsense).

Why do people consider RBY wrong?

[dbclemons]

Yeah thats what I thought painter used, the RBY model, since it emulates traditional paints. Oh, so it "could" include a RBY model. Maybe CMY has something to do with printing (bare with me if I'm saying nonsense).

Why do people consider RBY wrong?

Here's an interesting discussion. Allow me to butt in :)

There's nothing wrong with [RBY] or RGB, it's just an adjustment one has to make. There's a difference between the optical mix of paint to the RGB of a display monitor, mainly due to the behaviour of light.

CMYK is all about printing. It refers to the 4 color print process of Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Blac(K). RGB is the monitor display model of light elements. They're about two different worlds, but worlds that are connected (you probably knew all this.) Painter takes an approach to color mixing that is common to all digital programs, which is more CMYK than RGB. Adopting a different model would have been a hard sell. Most people don't understand how red and green light colors would give you yellow. In fact your choice of cobalt blue in painter makes the color closer to a reddish tint than say a cerulean blue which is a lighter value. If you mix that with a pale yellow, as with Jin's sample above, you get more of a purer green shade. In that sense it behaves like CMYK.

RGB is additive color, while CMYK is subtractive. In a true RGB world of light mixing if you combined yellow and blue you'd get white, not green.

While we're tossing up sites, study this one:
http://cis2.cuyamaca.net/jreed/examples/213_spring01/bohrer/finalproject/colorschemes.html

-David

[Aberrant]

Color is light, we think of it in abstract terms but all color is light. According to the way light works, RYB has the wrong complementaries. In RYB purple is complementary to yellow, but in fact blue is complementary to yellow.

I don't think RYB is wrong because obviously mixing red and green paint doesn't give you yellow like it does with light. I'm still not entirely sure why this is, maybe someone else does. I think it has something to do with the fact that our eyes are more sensitive to green than any other color, and it makes up a huge amount of the range we see. That, and pigments aren't pure color they're just an approximation and yellow pigment just happens to be very weak (1oz yellow + 1 drop blue = mid-green) so if yellow isn't a primary color it can't be mixed with imperfect opaque pigments.

Also RYB doesn't include the colors cyan and magenta because of the way it's set up. The thought that you can mix any colors from red, blue, and yellow came from someone that didn't recognize cyan or magenta as colors I guess.

I use RYB when mixing real paint, but when thinking about layout and color composition or anything not related to mixing pigments I think in terms of RGB/CMY.

More opinions! I want more opinions! Still learning!

[brokk]

This discussion turned out great!

David, thanks for that link. It really did clear up a lot of things for me.
Especially this part

RGB is the normal color scheme used in computer graphics, while CMYK is the standard for printing color images. Because the computer screen displays light, the more colors that are added, the more light is added, thus the lighter your resulting color. Because the CMYK color scheme is used in combining inks, the more colors you combine, the darker your resulting color.

In Painter and Photoshop you can choose either RGB or CMYK as the models you will be working with, but not RYB, right?
In traditional painting, can you choose the model, or is RYB the only model? I dont think you can use RGB but can you think as if you were using RGB?
Aberrant you mentioned you use RYB with traditional paints, but think in terms of CMYK when thinking of color composition. Does this mean I can use another model other than RYB when painting with physical paints? Because they do sell cyan and magenta in tubes. Does this mean I can use cyan and magenta and yellow as my primaries when painting traditionally? If I mix magenta and yellow with traditional paint, will I get red?

[Aberrant]

Keep in mind I'm not an expert by any means, but I'll still give you my opinion.

As far as I know everyone uses RYB to mix actual pigment. The way I think of it is, if you have your RYB color wheel set up getting closer to gray in the middle, then when you mix two colors you draw a line between them and your new color lies somewhere on that line. So if you draw a line between magenta and yellow it can't reach absolute red (because it's at the edge of the circle) but you'd get a weak dirty red. I don't know how that will actually turn out with paints, try it and tell me. Mixing real paints according to CMY won't work very well. I use CMY for non-mixing things though, like choosing colors for a design. I'd consider red's complement to be cyan when deciding colors for a logo but if I wanted to knock down the red while painting it I'd use green because it's the complement according to RYB.

You can work in RGB or CMY but that doesn't mean what you probably think it means, it only affects how the program stores the data for your image. The way it mixes colors will be the same no matter what you're using.

[Jin]

This discussion turned out great!

David, thanks for that link. It really did clear up a lot of things for me.

Especially this part

In Painter and Photoshop you can choose either RGB or CMYK as the models you will be working with, but not RYB, right?


Partially right, only.

As explained in one of my posts above, Painter works in RGB color space only. We can't choose to work in CMYK color space, though two file formats can be saved from Painter in CMYK: TIFF and PSD.

In Photoshop, we can choose to work in either RGB or CMYK.


In traditional painting, can you choose the model, or is RYB the only model?


As far as I know, in traditional media (pigment, not light as in digital media), all possible pigment colors can be mixed using the three primary colors, Red, Yellow, and Blue. To get white, leave the canvas or watercolor paper unpainted, use opaque white paint to paint white, or lighten other colors by mixing them with white.


I dont think you can use RGB but can you think as if you were using RGB?


RGB is a color space related to what we can see on a monitor, and consequently to digital media art creation. Its gamut is different from traditonal media pigments and CMYK and contains some colors than are not possible in CMYK printing. In traditional media (pigment), since green is a mixture of blue and yellow, green is not a primary color. Of course you can work with red, green, and blue in traditional media, but you'd need to either buy green paint (already mixed) or mix green paint using blue and yellow.


Aberrant you mentioned you use RYB with traditional paints, but think in terms of CMYK when thinking of color composition. Does this mean I can use another model other than RYB when painting with physical paints? Because they do sell cyan and magenta in tubes. Does this mean I can use cyan and magenta and yellow as my primaries when painting traditionally? If I mix magenta and yellow with traditional paint, will I get red?

Traditional Media Color

RYB, Primary Colors, or Red, Yellow, and Blue: Used in traditional media painting and to mix pigment colors.

Digital Media Color

RGB, or Red, Green, and Blue: Colors we can see on a monitor. Used in digital media art to specify or choose a single color, or mix two or more colors, from any colors that can be seen on a monitor.

Printing Color

CMYK, or Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Key (or Black): Four color process used in printing, in which the image is separated into four different colors (C, M, Y, and K) and the screened separations are applied to four different printing plates, printed one at a time, each overprinting the others.

Pantone Color: Color swatches, or chips, that specify the formula to mix ink for spot, or solid, colors used in printing.

On the page linked below you'll see a color gamut comparison chart showing RGB colors we can see on the monitor, CMYK colors used in printing, Pantone colors used in printing spot colors, and the visible spectrum. Look carefully to see the triangle defines RGB, or what we can see on the monitor. The largest rounded area defines Pantone colors (mixed by the print shop to print spot colors). The smallest rounded area defines the CMYK gamut. Larger than any of the others is the visible spectrum.

Color Space Fundamentals (Includes Color Spectrum Chart Showing RGB/Monitor, CMYK, Pantone, and Visual Spectrums) (http://dx.sheridan.com/advisor/cmyk_color.html)

A few more pages that explain RGB color space, CMYK color space, and Color Space in general:

RGB Color Space: The Colors of Television and Computer Monitors (http://www.techcolor.com/help/rgb.html)

CMYK Color Space: The Colors of Printing (http://www.techcolor.com/help/cmyk.html)

Color Space = from Wikipedia Encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_space)


Jinny

[dbclemons]

What Jinny said ;)

The closest I can think of how painting approaches light optics is with the Pointillists (George Seurat, etc.) who placed paint dots on their canvas, much like pixels actually, in an attempt to cause the color to be mixed in the eye rather than on the canvas itself. It didn't really work, but was a nice idea and made for some lovely images. Some painters apply paint directly, wet on wet, even right from the tube without mixing at all.

When mixing paint I definetly use an "RYB" approach; it can't be avoided, but I approach it much like cooking a soup. Add a little of that, stir, see the result, and add a pinch more of this, then serve :) . It's much the same with digital art too. Illustrators with paint have always had issues with how their works would get reproduced in print. It was the skill of the printer to try to match the paint as closely as they could. Now with CMYK tools it's not as difficult.

It's equally important to study color theory in terms of harmony, combinations, and relationships; not just mixing. Look for Johannes Itten's book "The Art of Color" as an interesting read.

-David

[Elwell]

"Color space" isn't just a metaphor. The secret to controlling color is being able to conceptualize it in three dimensions.

[Aberrant]

Jin, I'm still having a hard time understanding how additive RGB color could be used to paint in painter or anywhere. I've worked in print/sign shops, did computer graphics and multimedia professionally for a few years, so I know the RGB/CMYK doctrine - one for digital one for print. If it's still your assertion that painter uses RGB color model when mixing colors, could you refute this:

Red + green = grey/black in painter
(CMY would equal black, RGB would equal yellow)
Painter mixes consistent with CMY not RGB

Green + blue = grey/black in painter
(CMY=black, RGB=cyan)
Painter mixes consistent with CMY not RGB

Red + blue = grey/black in painter
(CMY=black, RGB=magenta)
Painter mixes consistent with CMY not RGB

Cyan + magenta = blue
(CMY=blue, RGB=white)
Painter mixes consistent with CMY not RGB

Magenta + yellow = red
(CMY=red, RGB=white)
Painter mixes consistent with CMY not RGB

Yellow + cyan = green
(CMY=green, RGB=white)
Painter mixes consistent with CMY not RGB


Sorry to beat this thing to death, but I kind of want at least one person to agree with me cause it seems real obvious even though I keep getting told otherwise.

[Aberrant]

"Color space" isn't just a metaphor. The secret to controlling color is being able to conceptualize it in three dimensions.

That's good advice... I think about a stack of color wheels leading to grey in the middle, starting with all black and getting lighter as they go up. So when mixing colors I draw the line I was talking about from one wheel to another in 3 dimensions to visualize the final color. It works for me, but kind of hard to keep in my head sometimes.

[brokk]

Jinny thanks for the links!
Got a lot to read.

Aberrant I mixed magenta with cadmium yellow today 50-50 and it looked a bit like a washed burnt sienna (at least to me).

[Jin]

Jin, I'm still having a hard time understanding how additive RGB color could be used to paint in painter or anywhere. I've worked in print/sign shops, did computer graphics and multimedia professionally for a few years, so I know the RGB/CMYK doctrine - one for digital one for print. If it's still your assertion that painter uses RGB color model when mixing colors, could you refute this:

Red + green = grey/black in painter
(CMY would equal black, RGB would equal yellow)
Painter mixes consistent with CMY not RGB


I'm afraid you'll have to ask Painter's developers to explain how RGB color can be used to paint in Painter. I'm not a developer and can only share what I've learned and understand as a user.

(I don't understand how my car's engine works either, but I drive the old thing anyway.) ;)

I'll demonstrate each of the color combinations you list, mixed in the Mixer palette and specified by adjusting the RGB sliders. In some cases, it's not possible to use the colors you list (cyan, magenta, and yellow) to specify another color by adjusting the RGB sliders since they're not red, green, or blue. In other words, there are no CMY sliders to adjust because all color we see and use in Painter is based on RGB color.

http://www.pixelalley.com/jins_images/RGB_red_and_green.jpg


Green + blue = grey/black in painter
(CMY=black, RGB=cyan)
Painter mixes consistent with CMY not RGB


http://www.pixelalley.com/jins_images/RGB_green_and_blue.jpg


Red + blue = grey/black in painter
(CMY=black, RGB=magenta)
Painter mixes consistent with CMY not RGB


http://www.pixelalley.com/jins_images/RGB_red_and_blue.jpg

In the following three examples, white is specified by adjusting the RGB sliders to R:255 B:255 G:255.


Cyan + magenta = blue
(CMY=blue, RGB=white)
Painter mixes consistent with CMY not RGB


http://www.pixelalley.com/jins_images/RGB_cyan_and_magenta.jpg


Magenta + yellow = red
(CMY=red, RGB=white)
Painter mixes consistent with CMY not RGB


http://www.pixelalley.com/jins_images/RGB_magenta_and_yellow.jpg


Yellow + cyan = green
(CMY=green, RGB=white)
Painter mixes consistent with CMY not RGB


http://www.pixelalley.com/jins_images/RGB_yellow_and_cyan.jpg


Sorry to beat this thing to death, but I kind of want at least one person to agree with me cause it seems real obvious even though I keep getting told otherwise.

In Painter, either RGB color is specified by adjusting the RGB sliders to produce a single color or two or more RGB colors are mixed with a brush variant to produce a single color or range of colors.

From my earlier post, paraphrased exerpt from one of the pages linked in that message:

"CMYK, or Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Key (or Black): Four color process used in printing, in which the image is separated into four different colors (C, M, Y, and K) and the screened separations are applied to four different printing plates, printed one at a time, each overprinting the others."

This process of overprinting screened colors makes it appear the colors are mixed to produce multiple colors beyond cyan, magenta, yellow, and black. In other words, the over printed screened colors fool the eye into seeing whatever colors those over printed screens appear to produce.

I understand what you're saying, but still think it's like comparing apples and oranges and that comparison only leads to confusion.

CMYK (or Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black) process printing uses four colors, none of which are RGB (or Red, Green, or Blue). Colors are specified differently and they're "mixed" differently in digital art and printing. CMYK printing uses pigment. Our monitors display colors using light.

In Painter, color is specified by adjusting the RGB sliders, picking color from the Color palette, picking from the image, or picking from a Color Set. Color is mixed in the Mixer palette or mixed on the image with a brush.

In printing, colors are specified by the four color screens and mixed by overprinting colors.

Using color in Painter, the digital artist needs to know how to specify, pick, or mix the colors he/she wants to use. It's also important for a digital artist who plans to print his/her work to understand that RGB color and CMYK color are different and what we see on the screen will not always be possible to reproduce in printing due to the range of RGB and CMYK colors not being the same.

Obviously, printing is a whole other process, entirely different from digital art creation. I believe there are quite a few more printing variables in addition to the subject of CMYK color we've been discussing. While anything and everything related to the printing process may be interesting to some artists, most of it is not pertinent to the digital art creation process itself, only to the printing process. The main things digital artists need to understand if they plan to print are:

The relationships between image dimensions in pixels, image dimensions in inches, and Resolution, or PPI as they pertain to the final print size and quality.

How the image will be printed and what the PPI requirements are for that print machine.

What kind of paper the image will be printed on and how that will affect print quality.

How the colors they use when creating the image will look when printed.

How the printed image will be view, up close or from a distance.

To the best of my knowledge, what I've said above is accurate. In any case, it's the best I can offer....and what I've learned by using Painter for quite a few years, learned from other artists and printers, and by doing research.


Jinny

[Aberrant]

I think you're not allowing yourself to think outside the box, you're just sitting safe with the doctrine of "CMYK is for print" and not allowing yourself to really think about it. Notice I don't use the K because the K is only added by printers and in theory it's not part of the model in any way. The sliders are totally irrelelevant to our discussion, how you specify colors or how painter stores them so they can be easily shown on a screen has nothing to do with how the program mixes two colors together on the mixer.

Red + Blue = Magenta in RGB. In your example you show magenta in the sliders because you set the sliders that way, then on the left you have them mixing on the canvas and theres no magenta at all, just a dark neutral mess like I said. It's two completely different results but you're saying they're the same.

It would be nice if some of the other people that view this would weigh in with an opinion since we're just going in circles.

[brokk]

Don't look at me, I'm new to all this, and I'm still trying to process all this data.

[Aberrant]

I think I figured it out. When you mix colors you multiply the RGB values. So in practice it does work like the CMY color model but it uses RGB representations of color to do it.

Cyan 0 255 255
Magenta 255 0 255
Result 0 0 255

0 multiplied by 255 is 0. 255/255 is 1, and 1*1=1, so 255*255=255.

red 255 0 0
green 0 255 0
result 0 0 0

Gets black because theres no shared colors.

red 255 0 0
lime green 180 255 0
result 180 0 0

To multiply you consider 180 as 255/180 which is 1.41, multiply that by 255/255 which is 1, then multiply back to 255 for the result (1.41). It will only result in non-black when the two colors being mixed share one of the 3 RGB values.

Obviously us non-mathmaticians aren't going to think of the numbers when mixing colors! So I think it's easier to think of it as using the CMY color model, because I can't find any practicial differences between it and the way colors mix in painter. It's definately not additive and so not using RGB mixing, but mechanically it doesn't use CMY either.

On the canvas it seems to use something like an alpha channel to emulate opaque paint? That's why you can't get black mixing on the canvas I guess.

[Jin]

I think you're not allowing yourself to think outside the box, you're just sitting safe with the doctrine of "CMYK is for print" and not allowing yourself to really think about it. Notice I don't use the K because the K is only added by printers and in theory it's not part of the model in any way. The sliders are totally irrelelevant to our discussion, how you specify colors or how painter stores them so they can be easily shown on a screen has nothing to do with how the program mixes two colors together on the mixer.

Sorry, but I am trying like heck to understand both what you're thinking and what on earth it has to do with using Painter, since this is a forum related to Painter and that's the program you've referred to when saying:


Jin, I'm still having a hard time understanding how additive RGB color could be used to paint in painter or anywhere.


CMYK (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black) are used in printing.

Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black are colors used in traditional media.

Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black are colors used in digital media.

I think if you read through my posts above, you'll see that I am aware of the fact that these colors are used in more than printing. If not, be assured that I am aware of this fact as anyone with eyes probably is also.

The RGB sliders are related to color used in Painter as they're used both to specify a single color and to see the RGB numbers when a color is picked or mixed elsewhere in Painter.

How the program mixes color "behind the scenes" or "under the hood" is something you'd have to ask a developer to explain to you or ask someone else who understands the science and programming users don't see or have to understand in order to use Painter to specify, pick, or mix colors.


Red + Blue = Magenta in RGB. In your example you show magenta in the sliders because you set the sliders that way, then on the left you have them mixing on the canvas and theres no magenta at all, just a dark neutral mess like I said. It's two completely different results but you're saying they're the same.


I'm certainly not saying the two results are the same. I demonstrated in the screen prints that they are not the same. What I do say is the same throughout Painter is that it's color is RGB based.

In Painter using RGB colors Red + Blue obviously results in different colors depending on how those two colors are combined.

In my demo images, I did not mix any colors on the Canvas, only in the Mixer palette as you can see in those demo images.

In order to get the Magenta you say is the RGB result of combining Red and Blue there are two obvious ways (though Magenta can also be the result of mixing colors in the Mixer palette, on a Layer, or on the Canvas), both of which are shown in my demo images: by picking Magenta in the Colors palette or by specifying Magenta using the RGB sliders.

In this case, you're right in saying I set the RGB sliders to make Magenta and if you notice, I failed to move the G slider all the way to the left. Picking from the Colors palette would have resulted in slightly different numbers displayed in the Color Info palette for R, G, and B, depending on exactly where I moved the small circles on the Hue Ring and Saturation/Value Triangle. Still, for all intents and purposes, the visual result could be Magenta.


It would be nice if some of the other people that view this would weigh in with an opinion since we're just going in circles.

I couldn't agree more! ;)

Since this has become a less friendly discussion that it could be, and I've spent way too much time on it, I'm going to retire to reading mode and hope someone can both understand your point and make you feel a bit more validated.

I am, after all, here to discuss Painter and help people use it.


Jinny

[Aberrant]

Magenta can also be the result of mixing colors in the Mixer palette, on a Layer, or on the Canvas

No it can't, and this is the entire basis for my whole argument, summed up very nicely. A primary color is defined as a color that can't be mixed using any other combination of colors, here are some references defining the term:

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Primary_color
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/primary%20color

Secondary colors are defined as a color created by mixing 2 primaries. So using this definition (which I hope we can agree on) we can say for certain which color model is representative of how painter mixes color.

Using the RGB color model we can get pure magenta by mixing red and blue, because red and blue are primaries. If painter used RGB we could mix the color magenta as you say because magenta is a secondary color in RGB. Try mixing magenta using red, blue, or any other color, it's impossible because magenta is a primary in painter!

Take blue as another example, which can be mixed with other colors (cyan + magenta gives you pure blue in the mixer), so by definition of 'primary color', blue can't be a primary color (because it can be mixed from others) and hence RGB can't be the color model painter uses to mix.

I think I just proved my case, I hope. Only took 10,000 lines of text. Sorry you think this is unfriendly, it's a bit heated but theres no ill will on my part.

[Jin]

OK...

I can't mix Magenta in the Mixer palette. Tried it, no go.

You must be right based on that fact, that Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow are the primary colors in Painter, not Red, Green, and Blue.

Can you explain to people reading this thread the difference between what you've been trying to get across about Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow being the primary colors in Painter and the fact that Painter works in RGB, not CMYK, though Photoshop can work in either?

The two subjects are not the same and that's been a partial cause of this thread becoming so lengthy.

Subject One: Your argument that Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow are Painter's primary colors.

Subject Two: The fact that whatever the primary colors may be in Painter, it still can't be used to create images in CMYK, only in RGB color.

A Painter image can be saved as a TIFF or PSD file with CMYK radio button checked or if the RGB radio button is checked, it can be converted to CMYK in Photoshop (or whatever other programs can convert a file from RGB to CMYK).

Try creating a Painter image in CMYK. That option os not available.

Try saving a Painter RIFF file in CMYK. That option is not available.

Go to Photoshop, and you can choose to create an image in either RGB or CMYK.

In Photoshop, I painted with red in RGB color mode:

http://www.pixelalley.com/jins_images/rgb_red.jpg

Without picking another color, I opened a new image and painted with red in CMYK color mode:

http://www.pixelalley.com/jins_images/cmyk_same_red.jpg

In Painter, I could not change the mode to CMYK color since it only works with RGB color.

I understand your point now, and hope you understand what I've been trying to get across.

Hopefully, we've all learned something. It's certainly been a lot of work, hasn't it? ;)


Jinny

[Aberrant]

Yeah, it's crazy confusing. It is a lot of work but I love this stuff, anything that's a challange to figure out is great.

You're right tha tpainter can't work in CMYK and that's the cause of a lot of confusion. I think that painter works with RGB values and uses an algorithm to mix them that emulates CMY. I'm still trying to learn more about that algorithm but I think it's based on multiplication - this is how it can work in the exact reverse of additive RGB while using RGB values - because rather than getting bigger when you mix values they get smaller. I *THINK* that the way you mix value x with value y is:

x/y * y = z

Do that for each of R, G, and B and you get your resulting color. I'm still trying to verify it but it seems like that's what it's doing. On the mixer anyway, the canvas probably uses something more complicated to emulate real paint better but is still the same idea.

So I think the two subjects you mention are actually very similar because in order to truly understand one you have to understand the other.

Edit: I just read your edit, I think the reason you're getting two different colors when painting with red in both is because the different color modes have different gamuts. Choose pure RGB red and ctrl+backspace to fill the screen, then select the color with an eyedropper and I bet it's not 255,0,0, it'll be whatever CMYK considers as the reddest red it can produce.

[Jin]

It's great that all this technical stuff interests you, but it bores me to death beyond a certain point.

What I need, and want, to know is how to use Painter. I don't need to do math to mix, pick, or specify colors. In fact, I do it intuitively, almost without thinking except to enjoy the results.

If I don't know how to mix a color, it's a snap to pick it from the Colors palette. If the color I pick isn't quite right, I move the small circles around on the Hue Ring and Saturation/Value Triangle 'til I get the right color.

No big deal, and experimenting is a great part of the fun using Painter.

So... hopefully you can find others who dig digging into the technicalities and you can continue figuring it all out.

If you really want to learn more about all this, a good place to start might be the two Corel Painter newsgroups and post your questions to "ImagingDev" (one of the Corel people who reads and sometimes posts to the newsgroups, especially, I think, to the c.PainterIX newsgroup):

Add Server: cnews.corel.com

Subscribe to:

c.Painter
c.PainterIX

Good luck!


Jinny

[Aberrant]

You recommended those newsgroups a while ago and I checked them out, good resource but not very busy. Honestly I find it boring too, it's great fun to figure it out and after that I never want to think of it again. I think it'll help my painting, inf act I know it will. My sig is a link to a piece I did today, and besides the fact that the background colors were influenced by this, I used it elsewhere too. I was painting with cyan (smoke) on a layer over the frog's foot, which was red with a slight yellow hue in it. It was mixing with the cyan as green, so I knew immediately if I pushed the foot more to magenta/purple that when the layers blended there would be no green, and it worked!

[Jin]

Cute froggy, though he looks like he wouldn't want to be called "cute". ;)

Wild smoke!

Thanks for the link.


Jinny