It's an Oddworld after all.

[Dipstikk]

I've deleted the images here because they're not a fair representation of my current skill level. Maybe now that people don't see the old shit and more of my current stuff, they'll be less likely to pass this thread.

All of my new stuff is at the bottom.

[CaptainInsano]

dark and imaginative :confident

Man, that 3rd guy has some serious nipples :O

[look]

I like your line works. Your coloring is too blurred and soft, try to use more defined shadings to build up volumn. The veins on the 3rd drawing bothers me a bit, it might look better without them, or less vein branches.
The last one would look better with just black and white, instead of greyish. Try adjust the level and contrast and see how it looks.

[Dipstikk]

dark and imaginative :confident

Man, that 3rd guy has some serious nipples :O

That's a girl. :(

And thank you, Look. I love critiques.

[Dipstikk]

I'm back with more work.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/Dipstikk2/Actra_newwings_Smaller.jpg
My character, Actra. I decided to keep the colors I used in the picture just for refrence. This is a... really crappy picture, but one of the only color guides I have for her. She's a Noctero, a race of carniovorous, flying mammals who were taken into slavery by the Industrialists.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/Dipstikk2/Actra_sheet.jpg
A more current image of Actra. I gave her more of a feminine look.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/Dipstikk2/Alf_colorguide_smaller.jpg
Alf, the co-star of the comic. Now he's not my character; he appeared in the Oddworld games, namely Abe's Exoddus and Munch's Oddysee. Alf is a Mudokon, a species that is very close to the natural world. In fact, they have a psychic bond with it. He's got a sarcastic disposition, which I love writing for. He acts as Actra's navigator.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/Dipstikk2/Munch_colorguide_smaller.jpg
Munch, the third character in my fan-comic. You'll probably recognise him from both my avatar and from Oddworld: Munch's Oddysee, which he starred in. It only seemed natural to have a third character, so I threw old one-leg into the mixture. Munch (full name: Latamare Munch) is a Gabbit, a race of unipodal, amphibious creatures that were nearely driven to the brink of extinction by the Industrialists. He's very ambitious, and likes toget the group to move foreward. He's scrappy, too, and gets into more trouble than he needs to. He has a mechanical device implanted in his skull that acts as a sonic radar, and can also generate electricity from it.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/Dipstikk2/Actra_NewWingDesign.jpg
The back of Actra's wing. I may need to color it, there's a certain pattern on the wing that I want to try out.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/Dipstikk2/Actras_dad_reduced.jpg
A male Noctero, namely Actra's dad. He's pissed off becase a Slig shot his wife in the back and killed her.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/Dipstikk2/Noctero_arm.jpg
A Noctero Arm, for refrence. This is what I mean when I say I need to work on showing less muscle. Look at that. And that's supposed to be a female arm. *sigh* Practice makes poifect.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/Dipstikk2/Noctero_leg.jpg
And finally, the leg of a Noctero. They walk on their tip-toes, and are very good at sneaking up on things because of it (good for being a predator). They are also very graceful and agile.

If this makes it to the second page, I'm gonna be pissed. What am I, a fucking leper?

[Dipstikk]

Oh, boy, don't everyone jump up and talk at once...

You know, this is exactly what pisses me off about art forums. It's like, every single one I've been to, nobody responds to a post unless you're a master at anatomy and design, or you've drawn a picture of Superman or fuckin' Spider-Man or something. I post my work which, granted, might not be the best you've seen, in hopes of communicating with other artists, maybe get a few critiques and "how-to-improve"s, and I get squat.

I mean, is it wrong to want to be noticed? Do I need to be at a certain skill level for you to talk to me? Are you all just too good to talk to someone who's new here and *GASP* might want some pointers on how to improve? Stop me if I hit it.

It's like you're all hiding behind stuff, whispering, "Shh! Everyone be quiet, and he might go away."

EDIT: Okay, I realize that's not what you guys were doing. This message was foolish and I'm sorry for overreacting.

[madster]

It's not your skill level, as much as it is your choice of subject matter.

Speaking strictly for myself, these are, quite honestly, not bad for the designs you've copied as fanart from oddworld, but here, we're not really into fan art of other peoples Concepts, we're into encouraging creativity of your own concepts...fan comics, like fan fiction, are a compliment, but the motivation would better be used being original.

Then we get to Actra. It's not bad, but she's unattractive. Women certainly would not appreciate her, and most males would agree that her "femininity" does not add any allure to her.

Yet, your technical skills are quite developed, so it is very hard to critique something that you don't like, subject-wise, when the talent and skill to create it is so good...So, better to say nothing, and be thought a fool, and to open your mouth and prove it...which, I have now done (but certainly not for the first/last time...lol!)

It's more like "Shhh! It be beautiful, but gawd it's hard to look at! Just don't say anything, if you can't praise it, since there's nothing to really criticize."

~M

[Idiot Apathy]

Heheh, calm down. You probably should have made a new thread after this much time. There is just a little too much going on here to focus on one thing. Consider making creating a thread in the Sketchbook forum if you want a compendium.

Just some general "advice" I thought about as I went though. Watch your color choices, neon eyes don't exactly go with everything. All your edges (besides the lines) are extremely soft, airbrush like and hurts the believability. Right now your lightsources are pretty much right in front and all over, pretty boring. Try something from above (maybe above left or right?). This will help you render different areas well... differently.

You know, better yet just read this:
http://itchstudios.com/psg/art_tut.htm
Prometheus|ANJ's sweet tut.

[JERI]

You know, this is exactly what irritates me about art forums. It's like, every single one I've been to, I see people posting a bunch of their works, wanting tips and advice, but tells us squat on what exactly what type of pointers they're after. Dude, not everyone's a frigging professor of anatomy. I do my best to offer my advice which, granted, may not be the most helpful one you've seen - in hopes of communicating with other artists, and perhaps improve my own understanding of art as well. What do I get? Complaints! That my advices are either not new, not needed and does not address the issues he/she's focusing on.

I mean, is it wrong to want to help? Do I need to be at a certain skill level to avoid being treated with ridicule and disdain? Are you all just too good to be just a little more patient with a newb and *GASP* might wanna discuss the validity of my opinions with me??

It's like you're all blood thirsty hounds just waiting for people like me, going "Alright, everybody bombard this obvious newb with negative responses, that will show him his place!"

[Dipstikk]

Post Removed by User

[madster]

Everyone's tastes, needs, and wants in an online community are different. This site is not as "touchy-feely" friendly as a great many others, because many members take their efforts to learn and improve quite seriously. We get a great many new members who hear about CA and join, expecting to recieve great wisdom/appreciation/attention or who knows what from the forums as they post works varying from the lazy and not thought out scribbly doodles trying to pass as a concept to the disturbing for disturbing's sake, to fan art, which regardless of your excuses/reasoning for using someone else's work in a fan-comic is borderline copyright infringement, to some beautiful to look at, well planned and executed works that members can view again and again.

Your works are not attractive to look at, and it appears from your posts that you purposely make them look so, as your personal form of expression. Good for you. But, don't cry because no one cares to discuss them, when you dismiss the reasoning behind WHY no one cares to discuss them, with a "I don't care if people find them attractive." Well, then you better not care if you don't get any real enthusiastic replies, no matter where you post your stuff...

There are dark art forums. Perhaps they will better appreciate your efforts.

~M

[jabberwookie]

i really dig the colors you did on munch, pretty nice. id say one area that you may want to look more into, would be foreshortening and perspective of anatomy.

also, for a character like Actra, why not go further and make her your own? from the comments posted it seems you have hit an evil or sinister element with her, why not go all out and see where that takes you?

anyways, keep posting yer work!

[Dipstikk]

Post Removed By User.

[0kelvin]

Trust Sapphire, she knows what she's talking about. This is a great place to learn and grow, part of which involves getting your pride kicked to hell. It can be hard, but it's essential to getting better. We don't treat people like this because we're mean, we treat them like this because it's how we want to be treated in return. Honestly and openly.

Madster's not the king of tact, but he's really trying to help you. I think his crits on Actra were quite valid. Obviously these characters are very near and dear to you, and you've spent a lot of time developing them, but that can really cloud your perception. It's not that she's unattractive sexually, but just visually unappealing. Abe and Munch (and really everyone in Oddworld) are very unattractive characters, but they're still very appealing. You make an immediate emotional connection with them, simply through the character design (the story may strengthen this connection, but it's firmly established as soon as you see them). Actra doesn't have this quality yet. The second picture of her is definitely getting there, so I think you're heading in the right direction, you just have a little ways left to go.



0kelvin

[Sapphire]

As you know, dipstikk, I completely see where you're coming from with Actra, and it's the same sort of place that Lorne was coming from with Oddworld, and Abe. There's more to a character than appealing looks, and I really think it's unfair to say that a piece of artwork is not worth a response if the particular subject matter isn't considered beautiful. Personally, that's one of the things that made me like Oddworld so much in the first place; it was like nothing I'd ever seen before, and actually managed to make me look at things a little differently after I had played it. This is conceptart, after all... you see ugly gory monsters all over the place around here. ;)

In terms of this being fanart, that doesn't mean it's an invalid project. I know help is still needed to make it come to life, and dipstikk has concepts which are entirely his own integrated with it, which I've been watching the progression of. (I would help you color it myself if I wasn't working on my own things, one of which is an Oddworld fan art webcomic. ;) ) I guess that's my bias coming in there, but I know that, even outside of this comic, Dipstikk has his own work. Right now though he's focusing on this particular project that he's trying to get help with, though.

So, I guess that's my two cents. I would have to agree somewhat on the softness of your coloring technique, that sort of airbrush quality, which is I guess what made me comment on an earlier piece of your work as a "cartoon" without really even thinking about what I was saying. Try using pencil and scanning your work in. I find that's an easier, more natural way for me to get some texture into my stuff, though I really need to work on that, myself.

[Dipstikk]

Thank you, Okelvin and Sapphire. It's good to know that some people here understand my motives.

Okelvin, (I keep wanting to type OKevlin for some reason, haha) I would like to improve on her, give her that appeal that Abe and Munch have, but I honestly don't think I can do much more. I mean, the earliest drawings of this concept version (earlier versions have her looking dangerously close to a bat anthro) had her looking like an old woman. Understandably, I was still "fleshing her out," and didn't have a great handle on her facial structure yet. Months pass, and I've finally gotten to a point where she looks like a young woman (making muscles less visable really helped this), and I think this may be close to her final version. Sure, improvements will come as I progress in my craft, but I'm almost confident that this is the version I want.

I also do want to give her kind of a gangly, disjointed look. I mean, throughout the comic, she'll be plagued by an evil spirit that's tryint to take over her body, and be bordering on insanity. I want her to look tall and kind of creepy, someone you don't want to stand too close to for too long. And at the same time, I want her to give off this aoura of innocence. What I'm saying is that a lot of how she looks is more or less influenced by her role in the story.

Like I said, as I improve, I'm sure she'll improve along with me. But I look at it and my mind says, "aaaand, cut. Okay, I think we have it."


And I'll try to be a little less "noisy" from now on. It's just that, like Sapphire said, not every character has to be attractive to be valid. And just because my comic is fan-work doesn't make it invalid either. I've put five years into this story. Five years. And I'll be damned if anyone is going to tell me that my work isn't worth noticing just because it's fan work.
Besides, like Saph and I have said, I have my own series that I want to do, I'm just concentrating on this one now.

Sapphire: Words can't describe how happy I am to have you here defending me. Thank you SO MUCH. I've changed my mind, I'm staying, so long as you're here as well. And if anyone has a problem with me posting my "ugly" work more often *coughMadstercough*, they know where they can shove that problem.

[Idiot Apathy]

The only thing I'd like to mention that might get you more results and replies: Don't be so defensive, no-one will want to critique if they are just countered with "Thats not how it is" "I did that on purpose" "this is why and that is why so I shouldn't have to change". Not much of this matters, these people are giving their honest opinions and as the general public (sorta) this is how your work will be viewed. Choose whether or not to use what they point out but be quiet about disagreeing unless its an extremely valid point and of course thank them for their help.

Now about the eyes, your talking about two different enviromental situations here, they are so neon because they need to glow in the dark. However they don't need to be so bright and garish in "normal" light. What makes eyes glow in the dark? For one they reflect a lot of light especially in animals. I feel I'm rambling so just let me say, I'd probably tone them down until you get to the night pictures.

[johnny78]

Dipstikk, first of all.... no one has some kind of guarantee to get feedback in this or any other forum. People see your thread, might invest their time and reply....or not. So it´s not your right to get feedback, but more of a voluntary social intercation.

And don´t get mad with madster, he told you only the truth! And not even in a harsh way. It could very well have been possible that one or more members got pissed off and kicked your ego with their not so friendly replies


ok... and now for some suggestions:

1) Wing structure: Have a look at your wings. They don´t look like they would work, because the joints seem to be noting more than two bone ends put together. There doesn´t have to be a lot of muscles and the like going on there, but ususally these parts look a little bit more thick. Have a look at the wings of bats for example to see what I mean.

2) Light: This is something that can be seen very often. You seem to prefer "plastic light". Meaning: Elevated parts are lighter, the other parts are darker. Just look at a pic from Michelangelo, an arm, a leg for example. Everything seem to be lighted from the front. Every part gets light on the top. Comic style lighting is nearly the same (I mean most of the stuff from Image Comics). The problem is: It is not a realistic light and therefore it doesn´t look good unless you are Michelangelo.
So why don´t you try out realistic light. Have a look at a Vermeer pic, where the light comes from a window, creating shadow at the back of the figure. Indeed, not even his light is 100% realistic, but if we wanted realism only... we would take photographs only I guess.

3) Inks: You already have started to experiment with different line weights in your inks. That´s good. Here a suggestion to make it better: If your lines are thinner at the area where your new light comes from and thicker in the shadow areas this will make it even more plastic.

4) The tail: In the last b/w pic of the female it looks like it would grow out of the back side of the stomach or something, which looks a bit weird. Let it grow out of last last bone in the butt area we all have. The tailbone.

I hope it helps

[Dipstikk]

Johnny 78: I googled "bat wing," and got a pretty good idea on what to work on. I can see what you mean, and I agree that they look very thin and fragile the way I have them. I'll work on bulking up her wings a bit. I also got a bunch of pictures of Batman's vehical, the Bat wing, but those weren't as helpful. :p

And on the tailbone: I agree. It also looks way too high. In flight, it would stick up like a flag, and that's not good for flying. I'll lower it.

Thanks, and I'll work on not being so boisterous in the future.

[JERI]

Jeri, you get points for copying and pasting, then editing my post into a parody of it, but lose points for doing that just to be a dick.

You started it.

Anyway, about your character Actra - all I can say about the anatomy is that the proportions look fine to me. The only problems I have at the moment are with her feet and her tail. The feet is rather confusing because in the first lineart they're quite sketchy and undefined (compared to, say, her hands), and they seem to look smaller in the close-up study in relation to her leg. The tail has a unique (and complex) design, but I can't really figure out what it constitutes of, I can only make out the general shape. So at the moment, I'd say your character can benefit from more study sketches on the feet and the tail.

As for the her character, I'd say if you're going for that creepy-lookin', but innately innocent type - what you did in the first lineart seem to have nailed it well. I think it's about that eye, I feel from her widened eye that she's curious and just basically benign, and I think that is good in helping readers make connections with this creepy-lookin' character. So regardles of how crooked you wanna make her, you probably wanna make sure the eyes at least convey a neutral nature.

Other than that, I'd certainly wanna see more close-ups on the faces, her range of expressions/emotions so I can learn more about her.

Just my two cents.

[Dipstikk]

Thanks, Jeri; I was wrong about you, you're pretty nice.

The tail has been the one thing I've never truly done sheets for. I mean, I see it in my mind's eye, but I never really got down to drawing it. It's in an upside-down Y-shape, and built like a dromaeosaur tail (rods of bone along the vertibrae that stiffen it and prevent a lot of movement, the only moving it does is from side to side at the base).

Sorry, I like to write these down. Apparently typing helps me remember. But yes, I'll draw up some stuff for the tail.

[Dipstikk]

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/909/actraflyingsketch2smaller0of.jpg

A picture of Actra flying. Not sure how the wing muscles work, but I'll work that out in due time. Also, the tail is much easier to see.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/Dipstikk2/It_was_only_a_matter_of_time_colore.jpg
For those of you thinking of reminding me of the size of her breasts, you can save it. I know.
This is Lyddea, Actra's friend. She's unable to fly because of her massive... attributes, due to the high amount of fat content in the food they're given. Being slaves, they don't get many options about the food they eat, or much of anything else.
Lyddea is more than just a pair of knockers. She's kind, and Actra looks up to her as a big sister in the absence of her parents, who were shot and killed when her people were being taken into slavery.

She doesn't actually strip down in the comic, I just wanted to draw her naked. Her top does get snagged on something and pulled off, but she hides her...self and nothing explicit is shown.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/Dipstikk2/Lyddea_portrait.jpg
Another picture of Lyddea, clothes on.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/Dipstikk2/Roid_colors_smaller.jpg
Roid, Munch's alterego. Kind of a nod to the Incredible Hulk in the sense that Munch only turns into Roid when he's enraged. Roid was originally an idea that Oddworld Inhabidents was going to put into Munch's Oddysee, but it was dropped. I picked it back up, redesigned him so he looked more like Munch, and made a role for him in the comic.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/180/actrasoddyseereduxcolorssmalle.jpg
Promo poster for Actra's Oddysee. The creature next to her is simply referred to as a "log lizard," and will be a sort of easter egg, appearing in the scenery here and there in different places in the comic.

[Kanji2000]

That drawing right after the Actra color guide...Wasn't that critiqued extensively before??? What happened??? This drawing was never revisited...At least, not that I can remember...I never saw an updated or "fixed" version...

If you want people to critique your work, you have to put in the time and effort to re-work whatever it is was critiqued in the first place...You see, you will not learn [quickly] if you won't apply any changes that have been suggested...Simply making new sketches isn't enough...Just look at the results...There is no consistency in your work...I don't know what her real proportions are...Most of her poses are done without any real planning...You didn't plan her pose, the mechanics of the body, the background, or the composition...Perspective is out the door, not to mention blocking and general construction...

Facial expressions are nice...Colors are ho-hum...Muscles look okay, but learning when to show tensed muscles and when to show relaxed ones is key...

On a final personal note, enough of the defensiveness...Enough of the language...you have no idea what working as a professional artist in the real working world is like...Trust me, it's better to get told off in a forum than it is to get yelled at in the office...It's not fun...It's very humiliating...And it's usually because the artist in question didn't do something right...I have friends that have worked on a single folder (which amounts to about forty five bucks) for two months, and then ends up in the oval office (trash can)...And this is an actual professional environment...AND, these guys work to survive...This isn't some forum where it doesn't matter whether they get paid or not...Think very hard and very carefully before saying anything...People here don't get paid for giving critiques...Or even comments...They take time out of their busy schedule to help people like you...You'll get ass-pats from other newbs who aren't as advanced as you...But, a professional's opinion is what really matters...And they can smell BS and excuses a mile away since they deal with it on a daily basis...

Keep practicing...Less lip, more work, and change the attitude...The MOST IMORTANT LESSON I can ever offer you is DO NOT FALL IN LOVE WITH YOUR WORK...Trust me, it will save your very sanity...Never get attached to it...

That said, if you will apply whatever changes, or suggestions you've been given, you will improve...Keep at it, and don't forget to post those changes...

[Shatterdome]

Yeah, your colours definately need some more values and contrast in them. If you need to improve on backgrounds and landscapes, just include more in your pictures (which I see you've started doing) and you will naturally progress.

I hear where you're comming from, wanting to make these characters repulsive, as oddworld dictates. The thing is not everyone may be familiar with Oddworld, and what kind of setttings these characters are supposed to be in. So the general uneducated "consumer" won't be thinking about your motives as an artist, but looking for things that catch their eye....the demographic for video games and this type of art is mainly young males. So even though you want them to be primarly ugly, having at least one sexy attribute would help...ie nice ass, legs a nice rack or sexy abdomen. Your first coloured pic of Lyddea does this well, she still look monstrous and "Odd", but she also has elements that would interest the "consumer", and then maybe get them intrested in the story behind her. I keep saying "consumer" because if you want to ever make money on your art you have to make people want to spend money on your art...anyways just keep at it man, take everything with a grain of salt and I must agree, never get defensive or attached....man i've had my art be outright called shitty...I didn't think it was THAT bad, but instead of trying to defend it, I asked what was so shitty about it...reflected on that and then scrapped it and started studying more ;) anyways....keep it up...

[Dipstikk]

That drawing right after the Actra color guide...Wasn't that critiqued extensively before??? What happened??? This drawing was never revisited...At least, not that I can remember...I never saw an updated or "fixed" version...

If you want people to critique your work, you have to put in the time and effort to re-work whatever it is was critiqued in the first place...


http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=615715&postcount=12
This post should have the final version.


On a final personal note, enough of the defensiveness...Enough of the language...you have no idea what working as a professional artist in the real working world is like...Trust me, it's better to get told off in a forum than it is to get yelled at in the office...It's not fun...It's very humiliating...And it's usually because the artist in question didn't do something right...I have friends that have worked on a single folder (which amounts to about forty five bucks) for two months, and then ends up in the oval office (trash can)...And this is an actual professional environment...AND, these guys work to survive...This isn't some forum where it doesn't matter whether they get paid or not...Think very hard and very carefully before saying anything...People here don't get paid for giving critiques...Or even comments...They take time out of their busy schedule to help people like you...You'll get ass-pats from other newbs who aren't as advanced as you...But, a professional's opinion is what really matters...And they can smell BS and excuses a mile away since they deal with it on a daily basis...

It's not that I can't take critiques, I can. It's mostly a mix of some people being so harsh about it (something I'm still not used to), and the magnitude at which I'm receiving them. It's like a barrage.

And I know people are just going to tell me to get used to it. Well, that's easy for you to say. But I've never been critiqued this intensely before (not that that's a bad thing), and it's kind of like piling a mile-high heap of pancakes on a plate and expecting the person to eat it in the next ten minutes. It's a lot to take in and a lot to try to fix. I know you guys aren't going to change for the new guys, and I don't expect you to sugar-coat any of it, but don't expect the new guy to be completely ready for it.

I've already promised to try and take critiques better, and I will. But as any new guy, I'm still trying to break myself in, and I'm just getting used to this place.

---

Thank you for the words of encouragement, SHatterdome. I'll do more backgrounds. Never was very good at perspective (just didn't have the eye for it, I guess), but as you can see, I've been working at it slowly. Thanks again, man. :)

[CamStatic]

Oh my god, I LOVE that "Munch"! Really awesome-looking, and I think you got his expression just perfect.