Down With War?

[mcotie]

Originally posted by MGH
First of all. great piece Snowfly.
Now, I couldn't help notice your 'DOWN WITH WAR' message. I can't say I would disagree, and I'm sure everyone is with me. The problem I'm having here is you've got a buff chick all kitted out for combat, yet you have a bold anti-war message below it.
I don't mean to single you out as I've noticed the same conflict with many people (including myself) who post here. Many of us are attracted to the ultra violent type artwork found in comics, games, movies, etc. yet many of us go on and on about how BAD war is.
Has anyone else noticed this how strange this is?

This is an interesting subject. I'd like to keep this discussion away from pro/anti war as much as possible and concentrate on what artisits feel when they draw violent pics and how that relates to their feelings on the war at hand.

personnaly: most of you know my stand point on it; and it has had a major impact on my pieces that I do for Fantasy Flight Games. I'm focusing more on the individuals that are in the conflict. What are they going through, are they going to make it, not so much of the slaughtering at hand but getting more personal with it. take for instance the norse lady I just drew. I could have drawn her in a traditional "top of the horde pile, body parts flying, i'll kill you all" composition. But i chose to focus on the " totally baddass, capable, and competent warrior with her back to the gloom of war and facing the light of good things to come."
Even if I decided on the "horde pile" composition I think i would have had interest on making the look on the warriors face, a look of fear and desperation.

I'd like to hear from other artists and their thoughts on this.

mitch

[MGH]

I had to go and open my big mouth.
Oh well, it is an interesting subject.

[cucaracha]

I'm with you, but I think there's a big difference, I mean, art is art and reality is sth different.
Some images are brutal/perverted an no art, I know (we had this sketch with kinda monster-dildo in it here the last weeks I think).

The competition is to find out when brutality, for example, is good for the image, improves the mood and so on or when it's simply dumb.

An artist also has to show every side of life, bad and good ones.
So, I have no problem with big axes or killed people on the ground - As long as there aren't too much, I also got a limit.

cu

[mtw]

I think someone said this in the other thread. Art can be entertainment, so it's no different from games like Counter-strike. Even if you don't like war you can find playing Counter-strike to be fun.

[oglzogl]

I am a pacifist through and through.. but I also realize that this is a violent world. I don't think that it is bad to portray violence.. I think it is something you have to come to grips with because you are alive. And I think that art helps people come to grips with it. Maybe a disturbing view but it's the way I see it..

That is not to say that I have a whole lot of appreciation some artwork I've seen which go overboard in portraying violence. I usually prefer artwork to be more subtle than that. On the other hand, take somebody like Goya.. his war scenes really put you there.. and really disgust you. He accomplished his goal.

Edit: what I mean is that Goya didn't try to glamorize war (which I kind of see as a problem. Glamorizing war, especially when protraying an actual event, is really just making art into propaganda). He showed you what it was and what it looked like. I appreciate that kind of honesty.

[ceenda]

I think something we need to bear in mind is that violence tends to give humans that feeling of adrenaline. If you've ever been in a fight, you know that at that moment in time you're only really conscious of being excited (or horrified), it is the after effects (injuries, destruction etc.) that make us weigh up the moral implications and remind us that violence and war yields terrifying results.

This is why we like violent shoot-em-ups, paintball, heck - even football possibly. It's that sense of competition that our ancestors felt as they smashed opposing tribes out of their territory.

I love looking at the army lists whenever a new Command and Conquer game comes out.

"ooOOOoh, Soviets have got THIS huge tank."

"oooOOooh, Allies have got THIS cool-looking orni, I bet that could kick ass!"

At that moment in time no-one is thinking about the trails of bloodshed and destroyed lives that the implementation of such war vehicles would help being about.

The truth is, as much as we are intellectual, we are also animal. We like big guns.

Lets draw them... and not use them. ;)

[sparth]

ceenda that's a funky message that reflects the truth.
i'll add that the impact of games borrowing to war themes is very high, because of these logical and natural human feelings for power and conflict. it's that little voice at the bottom of our souls which encourages us to see violence as legitimate, exiting, and fun. it is not a wrong voice, it is a voice that must be understood, a voice that must be emprisoned into a cell of wisdom. (!!)

as you stated, let's keep these guns for video games. in a way, it's one of their most essential purpose.

[Fipse]

This is quite a difficult question that I asked me a lot.

To reach out I´ve been active in the german peace movement in the beginning of the Eighties, have never been in a "real" fight, haven´t been in the army, instead doing social service and never had a gun in my hand ... so I´ve got to say I´m really peaceful and Jester may confirm that it is so ;).

On the other hand I´m doing martial arts since I´m twelve (including full-contact kickboxing), reenact mostly medieval soldiers, loved to do full contact SCA-fights (look at http://www.sca.org) have got 8 swords, 3 bows, 1 axe and an assortment of asian weapons in my flat and, yes, I draw soldiers, fighting and chicks with weapons ...

So I often have thought about this paradoxon ...

I personally think that aggressivity and fighting are primal urges of mankind and so of the artists, too. I´ve read once an article where some scientists described mankind being divided in "archaic" men and "modern" men (and of course women). The archaic type is e.g. more aggressive ist often doing sports with body contact and the modern Type is more peaceful and social. These are remnants of our ancestry - remember the human race is really young, I think a lot of our drawing has anthropological roots.. So I personally think I fit into the archaic type ;).

First at all I think fighting (and of course winning) is a really good feeling - maybe just sex is equally strong for me. There´s nothing better to my adrenaline household than three rounds of kickboxing or charging in the SCA the enemy shieldwall with all my might. Best thing is to have some mates around you with whom to feast afterwards and tell for years the same old stories ;).

Now go back some years and look at a hunting party in the stoneage, hunting a mammoth down, triumphing after the kill and getting back home telling about it. They all felt this rush of adrenaline and triumph and I think they all will look back for weeks or even more to tell tales. There maybe is one guy who really vividly remembers everything and begins to draw the fight against the mammoth on some cavewall just to remember the good feelings of triumph, the full stomachs and to express his wish to feel this again.

Today I think many of the artist here around are this guy, drawing mammoths and ur on the wall. We´re sitting in our climated bureaus behind our computers but deep inside we´re all still caveman ... the one more, the other less. Like the caveman we still feel this primal urge for the feeling of the excitement of fight and triumph and we express it with our drawings. There are surely other reasons, too. I see in some drawings frustration, anger, hate, showing that the man with the biggest gun, sword ore else has the biggest dick, etc. but I believe for many of us like me it´s the urge for the fight and for all this feelings we often reject that we express here.
I wonder how many of us felt this urge when we saw a good movie ... I just remember LOTR II, when they rode out of Helms Klamm to fight a last, good fight. I could feel with them (even if my logic knows, what sorrow, pain and grief all this brings). Or Henry V., Braveheart whatever ...

All what we do here is doing substitutes for some old needs that are often deeply embedded and rejected. I had for quite a long time other substitutes but my health wouldn´t let me so I got finally back to drawing. This hasn´t got much for me to do with real violence (to what some people go to feel something again - e.g. Hooligans).

These is of course my personal opinion and shows mostly how I explain to me my personal paradoxon.

Fipse
(Caveman in disguise)

BTW combining half naked Chicks with weapons or in fight are two primal urges in one :)

[Muttonhead]

Good subject matter.

Personally, I think it is unrealistic to think that mankind can ever exist without conflict, or war. Hopefully, as time prgresses, wars will involve less bloodshed and brutality as they have in the past, but lets face it: If somebody is threatening you, and they won't listen to reason, sometimes you just gotta fight.

I'm no fighter, and I do not believe in the initiation of force, but if forced to, I would defend myself. As should any nation who legitimately feels threatened or invaded.

The other side to it is this: creating art, or playing video games, etc., that feature violence, does not constitute support for war and violence, just for the sake of violence.

Presumably, most of us draw or watch these things because we like to romanticize about DEFENDING ourselves, or freeing oppressed people from some great evil or menace. This is when almost everyone would defend war: I.E. war against Hitler.

Also, think about this: does a person who makes a movie about a mass murderer condone mass murder? Do you really think Clive Barker wants people to peel their faces off?

In the same respect, a person who draws naked ladies doesn't neccessarily want to see a bunch of ladies get naked in his house.......wait a minute, maybe that's not such a good analogy. Hehe.

Ahem.

Well, you get what I mean.....

-S.A.M.

[Clodhopper]

I don't think humans seek violence... Violence is simply a product of the desire for power and adrenaline.

as long as there is power to have, or take, there will always be violence in society. Art is an outlet for me, my favorite kind of image is that which portrays power and adrenaline.

So I wondered why I still enjoy what it felt like to beat someone in a fight (in highschool), now that I'm too mature for that sort of thing, but I still enjoy what it was like. I think Flipse gave an excellent explanation, that was very well put.:chug:

[conor]

all mammals have two basic instincts- survival and the desire to reproduce. (one could combine survival into reproduction,
but this makes it simpler)

when one destroys another entity, it can no longer effect ie harm you. As a result, primaly, killing beings dyamettrically opposed to you means safety. This is the primal basis. when one animal kills another, thats where it ends. parental figure avenging death is about as complicated as it gets.

however our brains are far more imaginative than that. man has discovered the club, sword, bow, gun, bomb, and nuke. At each stage we become more efficient at killing. Eventually we become so efficient we will kill our selves. its bound to happen at the rate we are at.

but however, back to the point. How does mother nature get us to eliminate opposing forces. why can't i simply avoid the beast, or eat plants. (plants operate on a completely different level of phsycology, i beleive but I know nothing about the subject, so I will not go into it.) Mother nature wants me to kill the opposing force because thats what its about. evolution is all about eliminatin of the weak. As to the end result, thats quite personal. However, presently and previously speaking, In killing, I am oiling the gears of evolution (one could compare the evolution system to that of economy). But we are fearful creatures, and what is important is our survival. So how does mother nature get us to kill? Just like sex, it becomes a pleasure. We derive pleasure from killing. The andreneline rush of haste, sweat and imminent death is exciting. At those times we run at high emotion, fun, interesting, not BORING most importantly.

In depicting, watching, seeing, hearing war, death battle, we derive that same satisfaction. One of the best scenes of depicting this satisfaction (from what i've seen) is when in Gladiator the movie, one of the gladiators dies in the colloseum. There is a quick cut to the emperors face, which opens its mouth and flays out its tounge, giving a gast of excitement. Much like the emperor we are deriving pleasure. Whether it is a horrific satisfactionor a pleasureable or exciting or andreneline pumping or a grim satisfaction it is still satisfaction. In many ways it is addicting, more so than any drug, as it is always there, lieing dormant within you and I, waiting. As a vent for this desire, we depict battle.

we do it even if it is wrong, if it is horrible, if it is horrific.

are we justified? Is it alright to satisfy this impulse. I beleive that over the process of a millenia or so, we could slowly wean ourselves off the impulse. that is if we don't kill ourselves in the process. So yes, for now pictoral violence is alright. the more pointful the better, but still alright if it is pointless. Problem is, the population is so diverse in its acceptence, it is quite hard to controll the amount that would be advantageous per person. Not that i'd suggest it needed to be governmentally or media controlled.

thanks for reading. sorry about being so off topic.

[Landmate]

i liek chees

http://www.snowcrest.net/cafemocha/images/Cat%20Happy%20Animated.GIF

[Tedsuo]

All art (especially storytelling art) requires conflict in order to be sucessful. I think violence is the most direct and easiest method for obtaining this. Try making a non-violent video game that isn't a puzzle game, yet still is fun to play. It's HARD.

I'm trying to stay away from it in my own art, but violence is sort of the backdrop for our lives, if not personally then globally. So it creeps in there. We're still just a bunch of big apes, really! :D