Buildup and erase

[Chris Beatrice]

This is kind of a tough one to describe... any help would be appreciated

I'm using a brush with the Buildup method (on a Gel layer) to do some underpainting. This is close to what I do with real oils using thinned down paint. Untouched areas stay white, areas with a lot of paint get very dark, and in between the color becomes very saturated because of the white canvas reflecting through the translucent paint. This works great in painter when building up the pigment (see sample stroke at top of image below).

With real oils, though, I also use a rag to remove paint. Whether I build up to, say, 25% opacity for a certain area, or wipe down to 25% opacity from an area that is more covered, the result is the same (translucent paint that looks pretty saturated). In other words, painting on translucent oils to build up color, and then wiping some color of, produces the same scale of color going up and down.

With Painter, though, I can't figure out how to set up the "wiping off" to mimic this. See the lower stroke samples in the below image. I've tried a bunch of different erasers, but I just can't get it to work. A lot of weirdness occurs, like the solid red area, or areas that are desaturated and look more like white paint was added on top, etc.

http://www.chrisbeatrice.com/images/Buildup.jpg

[Jin]

Hi Chris,

I think erasing is not the best approach, but you already found that out. ;)

How about telling me which brush variant it is and list any brush control adjustments you've made to it?

Then I can test a couple of ideas to make sure they work. Since Painter's brush variants are so different from each other, without knowing exactly what you're working with, it's pretty hard to test accurately.

If you can respond pretty quickly, I'll do it right now. If not, it may have to wait until tomorrow morning as I have to be offline for a while.


Jinny

[Chris Beatrice]

That's great, thanks.

The Fine Soft Glazing variant, with opacity increased to about 10% works fine for this test.

Thanks again.

[Jin]

Chris,

Here's what I did, as you'll see in the demo below.

Painted the original brushstroke on a Layer set to Gel Composite Method, to match your example the best I could.

Duplicated the Layer 3 times.

For each Layer, I created a Layer Mask, clicked the Layer Mask, chose the Airbrushes' Digital Airbrush, set Opacity Expression to None, and painted a brushstroke horizontally through the middle of the Layer's RGB brushstroke. I used black to paint on the Layer Mask and used three different Opacity settings, a different setting for each Layer Mask edit: 5%, 10%, and 15%.

http://www.tutoralley.com/ubb/jins_images/glazing_via_lyr_msk.jpg


Editing the Layer Mask this way gives us a lot more control. I set Opacity Expression to None, so I wouldn't have to worry about how much pressure I applied. Also, I did not paint back and forth in one area. I just painted a single stroke on each Layer Mask, using Undo as needed to get the stroke centered through the Layers' RGB brushstroke.

Some of the red you see is just going to be there due to the color that's being lightened. Other brushstroke colors would produce different results.

I had to fiddle quite a bit to find a color that would come close to matching your example when I painted in one spot at the right end of the stroke. Choosing a more pure yellow, I got red at that end of the stroke, the harder I painted, the redder it got. Maybe it would be good to do more experimenting before choosing colors you're going to apply your scratching off method to, so you'll come closer to the look you want.

By the way, wouldn't it be easier just to apply glazes slowly and gently rather than removing what's already been applied? The brush variant you're using is a bit rough, but others can be used to apply a very controlled and gentle glaze, bit by bit, layering the brushstrokes as needed.

Maybe that's not the look you want, though. Just remember, in any case, using Painter we're free to do things backwards, upside down, and inside out and are not restricted to doing them the way we would with traditional media. While it's nice to work the way one is used to working, if it becomes a roadblock, then find the way that removes that roadblock.

OK... end of lecture. Really, I'm just curious about the techniques you're using. They sound interesting and I'd love to learn more.

Gotta go now... never did get around to eating breakfast. ;)


Jinny

[Jin]

P.S. Forgot to give you a tip I remembered while testing. This is not the cause of your problem erasing, since you were erasing on a Layer but it's something that may be good to know sometime in the future:

Some Erasers variants are set to the Subcategory "Soft Paper Color", so if your Canvas' base color is white and you're erasing on the Canvas, that's the color you'll get... white.... no matter what other colors have been applied to the Canvas or what color may have been used to Fill the Canvas.

The Erasers' Eraser variant, for instance, will erase back to the base Canvas color.



Jinny

[Chris Beatrice]

Jinny,
That's great, thank you. I will try that right away.

Don't apologize for the "lecture" - with Painter I typically waver back and forth between sometimes trying to set up brushes and techniques to closely mimic the way I paint with physical media, other times treating it like its own special medium and coming up with things that work.

Ironically, after writing a couple of tutorial articles for CGTalk I felt the need to revisit my "latest" technique(s). Developing digital paintings the way I have been has been unnecessarily frustrating, and I think time consuming. So over the past week or so I've just been doing a lot of exploring with Painter (hence the flood of questions for you!).

Here's a link to the first tutorial if you're interested:
The Frog King - tutorial (http://www.cgnetworks.com/story_custom.php?story_id=2834&page=)

The other tutorial hasn't gone live yet, but here's a link to the thread where I posted the picture on CA.org:
The Enchanted Pig (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39581&highlight=enchanted+pig)

With respect to this particular question, one of the things I was messing with is trying to mimic roughing in a painting using a thin oil wash and wiping off with a rag, like I do in some oil paintings. Though the variant I was using was labeled "glazing...", really I wasn't trying to do glazing (as you suggested). If I were I would most certainly approach it the way you reccommended.

Here is a rough underpaing in physical oil from an old picture of mine which I think explains this step of the process and what I was trying to mimic in Painter:

http://www.chrisbeatrice.com/images/heart_winter_step01_lg.jpg

When you're conditioned by translucent media like this you get a lot of habits... It just behaves a lot differently when you're doing apply => remove, and using translucent paint. I was trying to see if I could do something similar in Painter.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the help, and the quick responses! I've got a few more questions coming your way...

Oh, and I just downloaded the Painter IX demo which I'll check out tonight. Thanks for the tip on that too. I'm sure I'll buy it in a few days.

-Chris

[Chris Beatrice]

BTW, that worked beautifully!

Using the same variant for the "erasing" as the painting (but with much lower opacity and setting, around 5%, and black as the paint color as you suggested).

I never really worked with layer masks before, thanks for the help.

-Chris

[Jin]

Hi Chris,

Though I guessed you would be, I'm glad to hear you're open to doing things a bit differently using Painter than you would using tradiitional media, to get the same or a similar result. It's fun working with someone so receptive, not mention the fact that you're both talented and experienced with traditional media.

With that experience, you have a lot to share with the rest of us since we can use those techniques, translated, in Painter. It makes the whole experience more interesting, more fun, and more rewarding.

So thanks for being you! :)

I'll take a look at your tutorials and when you have the second one published, please post a link here so we can see it. (Thanks in advance!)

If you don't mind, I'd like to post a link to your first tutorial at my TutorAlley Forums site so our members can enjoy it. The same for your second tutorial when it's published. If you have any objections, let me know and I won't share the links.

Another thing you might find useful is a custom brush library named "Reveal Canvas_P7" created by David Gell who's also a member of this site and known here as "sandman". You can download the .ZIP file from his site at:

Sandman's Download Page (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.gell/Pages/Sandmans_Download.html)

Click the link named "Sandman's Brushes". On the next page, scroll down to the second table where you'll find the download links for the Reveal Canvas brush library .ZIP files. At the top of that table, you'll see the column headings for Painter 6 Windows, Painter 6 Mac, and Painter 7 and 8. Download the Painter 7 and 8 brush library .ZIP file and the brush library can be used in any of the three versions, Painter 7, Painter 8, or Painter IX.

David's both a generous and thorough guy and he includes ReadMe.txt files with most or all of his downloads. Take time to read the one included with this brush library, to understand more about how the brush variants can be used.

Before you download the .ZIP file, create a new folder somewhere outside of the Painter folders. Download the .ZIP file into that folder, then extract it into that folder. Then you'll see the following folders:


Folder (you created outside of the Painter folders)
...P7_RevealCanvas.zip
...P7_RevealCanvas (folder, only used to hold the brush library folder)

......Reveal Canvas_P7 (brush library folder)
.........Reveal Canvas (brush category folder)
.........Reveal Canvas.jpg (brush category .JPG icon image file)
............CategoryData.xml (indicates currently selected brush variant)
............Partial Reveal Canvas.xml (brush variant file)
............Reveal Canvas.xml (brush variant file)

As you see, in parentheses, I've included a description of each folder and file in the outline above. Copy and paste the Reveal Canvas_P7 brush library folder into the following folder:

Corel > Corel Painter IX > Brushes

Now you can load that brush library any time you want:

Go to the Brush Selector menu, choose Load Library, highlight Reveal Canvas_P7 in the Brush Libraries list, then click the Load button.

Have fun!


Jinny

[Jin]

Hi again,

Chris, please check your PM's in a few minutes.

Thanks,


Jinny

[dbclemons]

Jin's approach with the Mask is the perfect choice, as you've seen. I might suggest also using the Dodge tool in the mask with a mid range hue like the color Jin suggested above. This will give you a more subtle bleaching than some of the other tools. There's also a Tinting brush in v7 (I don't have the newer version) that has a blender option with a grain control. If you use this you can intruce your paper grain in the blending to give you a look much like wiping paint from a canvas.

-David

[Chris Beatrice]

There's a dodge tool in Painter 8?

[Jin]

Hi Chris,

Yep, though in Pianter it's not a "tool" but a brush variant. The only tool related to pixel based drawing and painting is the Brush tool found on the Tools palette.

Look in the default Painter 8 Painter Brushes library's Photo brush category for the Dodge variant.


Jinny

[Chris Beatrice]

Yes, I know, but when I looked for it before I couldn't find it!!

Anyway, Painter's dodge variant is really just an eraser, right? I don't think it's using the same algorithm to get from the existing color to white as Photoshop uses, but I never use the dodge thing anyway. I was just surprised / curious because I thought Painter didn't have it... should've known better.

[Jin]

Chris,

I'm not surprised it would be different from Photoshop's Dodge tool.

They're not the same program and the brush technology is probably different throughout, not just in the obvious areas.

Personally, I don't like the Dodge tool. It never seems to be controllable enough and always looks harsh and unnatural. Same with some of the other Photo brush categoy's variants.

There are so many other ways to achieve a nicer (I think) effect.


Jinny

[dbclemons]

True, the dodge and burn tools can be awkward to use, especially for shading, but for bright reflections on glass or metal dodge works well. Burn is a good way to add a sharp contrast to painted areas, but I agree there are other ways to get there. One particular problem (or feature) with these brushes is they don't work on invisible layers, so you have to work on a selected copy of the layer that you're changing. With another brush that's not a problem.

-David

[Jin]

One particular problem (or feature) with these brushes is they don't work on invisible layers, so you have to work on a selected copy of the layer that you're changing. With another brush that's not a problem.

-David

Just curious... I don't understand what you mean by "they don't work on invisible layers.." and " ...you have to work on a selected copy of the layer that you're changing."

Can you explain to me in terms of Painter, not Photoshop, what you're talking about?


Thanks,


Jinny

[dbclemons]

I'll try. It's pretty much the same in Photoshop as well, actually.

When you make a new layer from the Objects>Layers menu (assuming version 8 is the same as 7) it's "invisible" because there's nothing on it. If you draw in this with the Dodge brush, nothing will happen because there're no pixels to manipulate. However, if you draw a mark on it with, say, the oil brush, that mark is all that's on the layer. You can also make a layer by making a seletion of either the canvas or a layer below it, then floating that into a new layer. Now you have pixels that can be manipulated with the Photo brushes. Is that more clear? The help file or manual probably states it better than I.

-David

[Jin]

Hi dbclemens,

Yep, I understand what you mean now.

What I don't understand is why that would be a problem. Since there's no imagery on a new, empty Layer, there's nothing to affect with the Photo variants anyway. After all, brush variants that alter existing color need existing color to do their job.

We usually describe a Layer with nothing on it as entirely transparent or empty, rather than using the term invisible which would pertain to hiding the Layer's imagery by clicking the Layer's Eye icon (making it invisible).

That's why I couldn't figure out what you meant. ;)

Thanks for explaining.


Jinny

[dbclemons]

Ah, adjective trouble. I suppose "empty" would be more appropriate. I don't think there is a definitive word used for this in the manual. It's just called a new layer. Sorry if I was misleading.

As for when it might be a problem; it hopefully would only be so in certain situations. As an example, say you have a metal surface that you want to add a bright reflection to. If you do this with Dodge making a gradient down the side, you have to first select that area of metal, create a layer from that, and apply the dodge effect to it. If you were to paint that with another tool, you could use an "EMPTY" :) layer with just the highlight gradient on it. Either way might look fine, BUT if later you need to change the metal surface (color change, rusted, etc.) as sometimes happens, it would be easier to do with the painted layer. On the Dodge layer you'd have to do it all over again.

-David