Painter Vs. Photoshop

[Hybrid]

So, I'm an avid photoshop user. I've done all of my artwork in photoshop, and I'm just wondering; what makes painter better than photoshop, artistically? I mean, other than different brush strokes & styles.

[Zaknafain]

hmm what makes painter better to me than photoshop is the brush engine. The main reason is that Photoshop doesn't support brushes that interact with the color below (resaturation & bleed). It also has no real blenders.

Other points why I prefer painter:
- The color picker in painter is a color wheel and this way much more usefull for painting.
- Painters Paper feature makes it much more easier to implement texture into an image.

The bad thing in painter is, that it doesn't support (at least the newer versions) a clean airbrush.

[madster]

If you have version 7 or above of Photoshop, and are fairly proficient with it, Painter has little to offer beyond a few "wow" type effecs with limited usage, such as the image hose, mosaic/tesselation, and the weave and marbling functions.
Brush type construction is powerful enough, when combined with layer styles, to effectively duplicate most of Painter's "textured" brushstrokes, like chalk, rake, palette knife, etc., although it might take you a bit of time to tweak them to your liking, but the same can be said for Painter's default brush settings. Combined with scatter effects and color dynamics, if you have a pressure sensitive palette, you can pretty much duplicate Painter brush effects.

As a long-time PS user (why else would I work so hard to duplicate Painter brush effects?), I'm used to being able to resize an image or the canvas with a few simple mouse clicks. I'm also spoiled on Quick Mask,custom levels, curves, and Hue/Saturation, and Brightness/Contrast adjustments, not to mention the ease of a simple right click to change the brush size as I'm working instead of fighting with sliders and dialog boxes.
The biggest factors that Photoshop has over Painter are:
1. The ability to go to a default B&W Foreground/Background with a single keystroke, and
2. The ability to cut or copy any layer or image, and by choosing File>New, your new document is the exact size of the cut/copied information. In Painter, you have to enter the image size manually every time.

Although Painter continues to evolve to more user-friendly commands, it still is too fussy of an interface once you've been spoiled by Photoshop's.

[Jin]

If you have version 7 or above of Photoshop, and are fairly proficient with it, Painter has little to offer beyond a few "wow" type effecs with limited usage, such as the image hose, mosaic/tesselation, and the weave and marbling functions.


I'd have to disagree. Painter has a lot to offer that is not available in Photoshop, and much of which can't be duplicated in Photoshop. To name a few:

New Artist's Oils brush category and the Mixer palette where the artist can mix colors, then pick single or multiple colors from the Mixer palette and, using the Painter IX Artist's Oils brush variants, those multiple colors can be painted in a single brushstroke. The Artist's Oils Dirty box which, when checked, allows the brush to pick up existing color and following brushstrokes are painted with that color. In addition, there are many controls in the Brush Controls' Artist's Oils palette.

Impasto brush variants. In the Brush Controls' Impasto palette, there are controls for depth or depth and color, amount of depth, negative depth. Surface Lighting controls are used to light the entire image with white or with a chosen color and include additional controls for amount of depth in the Impasto brushstrokes, plus other controls for lighting.

Liquid Ink brush category with a dynamic Liquid Ink Layer that includes controls for amount of depth in the brushstrokes as well as density of the brushstrokes. Liquid Ink is vector-like in that it can be resized upward while retaining crisp, anti-aliased edges. In addition, there are more controls in the Brush Controls' Liquid Ink palette.

Watercolor brush category with the Watercolor Layer. Dry imagery on the Canvas can be lifted to a Watercolor Layer and when the artist choose an appropriate combination of Watercolor brush variant and Paper, then uses the Layers palette menu command, Wet Entire Watercolor Layer, the effect can be anything from subtle to extreme, depending on the Watercolor brush variant and Paper combination chosen. In addition, there are many controls in the Brush Controls' Water palette.

Digital Watercolor brush category, with beautiful brush variants that paint wet brushstrokes on an invisible wet layer, either on the Canvas or on a default Layer. This allows the artist to work on either the same Layer or Canvas with both Digital Watercolor wet paint and dry brushes without either affecting the other. In other words, the artist can, for instance paint a shape on the Canvas with the Pens' Scratchboard Tool (a dry brush variant), then paint on the Canvas inside, over, or outside that shape with Digital Watercolor's New Simple Water variant (a wet brush variant) and the Pens' Scratchboard Tool brushstrokes are undisturbed (and vice-versa). This can be done on a default Layer as welll. Once Digital Watercolor paint is dried, dry brush variants will then interact with the Digital Watercolor paint (i.e. Blenders variants). In addition, there are many controls in the Brush Controls' Digital Watercolor palette.

Painter IX, Painter 8.1, and earlier versions include Custom Palettes that allow the artist to set up their favorite brush categories and brush variants as icons in a Custom Palette and also add frequently used main menu and palette menu commands to the Custom Palette as buttons. Using this feature, the artist can set up the things they'll use for specific projects, then close other palettes to free up space for painting.

In Painter IX, we can customize keyboard shortcuts any way we like.

There's lots more but that's enough to make the point.



Brush type construction is powerful enough, when combined with layer styles, to effectively duplicate most of Painter's "textured" brushstrokes, like chalk, rake, palette knife, etc., although it might take you a bit of time to tweak them to your liking, but the same can be said for Painter's default brush settings. Combined with scatter effects and color dynamics, if you have a pressure sensitive palette, you can pretty much duplicate Painter brush effects.


No doubt some of Painter's brush variant effects can be somewhat duplicated in Photoshop. However, from what I've seen of Photoshop's brushes and heard artists who are very experienced with both programs say, only the fairly simple Painter brush variants can be somewhat duplicated.


As a long-time PS user (why else would I work so hard to duplicate Painter brush effects?), I'm used to being able to resize an image or the canvas with a few simple mouse clicks. I'm also spoiled on Quick Mask,custom levels, curves, and Hue/Saturation, and Brightness/Contrast adjustments, not to mention the ease of a simple right click to change the brush size as I'm working instead of fighting with sliders and dialog boxes.


While there are many things Photoshop does better than Painter (i.e. color management, etc.) and it's understandable that people like what they're used to (i.e. keyboard shortcuts), it's also true that Photoshop users often haven't taken the time to learn how to use what Painter includes. For instance, there are several quick ways to change brush sizes in Painter, including the one you wished for:

• Right-click and choose increase size or decrease size from the contextual menu.

• Hold down the Ctrl/Command+Alt/Option keys and drag.

• Use the ] key to increase brush size and the [ key to decrease brush size.

• Place your cursor in the Property Bar's Size box and use the up or down arrow keys to increase or decrease size.

• Place your cursor in the Property Bar's Size box and type the number.

• Click the small triangle to the right of the Property Bar's Size box and drag the slider.


The biggest factors that Photoshop has over Painter are:
1. The ability to go to a default B&W Foreground/Background with a single keystroke, and
2. The ability to cut or copy any layer or image, and by choosing File>New, your new document is the exact size of the cut/copied information. In Painter, you have to enter the image size manually every time.


Item 2 is available in Painter IX and in earlier Painter versions at least as far back as Painter 5. Cut or Copy any Layer (Painter 5 Floater) or selection and choose Edit > Paste Into New Image (or Edit > Paste > Into New Image in earlier versions). The result is a new image the exact size of your Layer (or trimmed Painter 5 Floater) or selection.


Although Painter continues to evolve to more user-friendly commands, it still is too fussy of an interface once you've been spoiled by Photoshop's.

Habits are hard to break, especially when you depend on them to keep your workflow healthy.

Also, sometimes people just plain prefer one program over the other for a lot of reasons, including how their brains work. In my case, Photoshop is just to dry, clinical, and unispiring to be any fun to use. However, I am glad to own both programs, and often tell people the combination of programs is the ideal setup because there are those times when Photoshop does something better than Painter does it.


Jinny

[Chris Beatrice]

Don't the bracket keys also increase and decrease the brush size in Painter?

[H.Evans]

thats true for both painter and photoshop-- the left one scales it to be smaller right to be larger

[Jin]

Yep, Chris.

I forgot to include that method but my message above is now edited to include it.

Thanks for reminding me! :)


Jinny

[rogfa]

I love Painter for it's abililty to spin the canvas. Hold down space bar and alt and you can spin your artwork at any angle. I think PhotoShop can only turn the canvas at 90 degrees. But I think you just have to use both programs. I use photoshop for selecting, color correction and painter for all the actual painting.

[Chris Beatrice]

Actually being able to spin the canvas is a huge thing for me too. Even though I don't use it that much, there are times when I really need it.

I did a lot of work in Photoshop before switching to Painter. I don't exploit very many of Painter's advanced features, but the main thing it does for me that I can't get in Photoshop is the Bleed and Restaturation things. I typically use high bleed (20%) low resat (80%) with high opacity to get something sort of like a combination of a painting brush and the smudge tool in Photoshop.

Though it may seem like only a few small things here and there that you can "almost" do in other programs, or "sort of" do in Photoshop, when you have to produce a high quantity of quality work these seemingly little differences matter a lot. It's like saying there's hardly any difference between a stick and a pencil. When you have to make a picture the difference is profound.

[glikster]

Photoshop is supposed to have the ability to rotate the canvas an arbitrary amount (you enter the number of degrees CW or CCW) but it's wonky in my version and increases the canvas size each time I use it.

[John P.]

One thing I like about Photoshop that makes it hard(er) to cross over to Painter(8, which is what I have), is the History dialog. Sure, you have Undo in Painter as well, and can keep clicking back and forth, but the History in Photoshop lets you for instance jump back several steps in one go(one mouse click), and then back again in one go, to compare exactly what the diference is, and so it's easier to see if the alterations you've made are worth it, or if you were on a better path originally.

Is something like this implemented in Painter IX?

Or is it available in Painter only I haven't found it? I must admit I haven't used Painter much because I'm so used to Photoshop, and I find the transition hard. It's like "why labour so hard in Painter, when I can do the same thing easily in Photoshop?".
But by all means - if I spent more time in Painter, I'm sure it would become easier to use.

I too would like to be able to jump to larger/smaller brush sizes in one go as you can in Photoshop(large jumps in size), rather than the small increments in Painter. But thanks for the tips on various ways to change brush size.

[Chris Beatrice]

John,
We all work differently and obviously that means certain software is more appropriate. However, I would also offer this: in art-making, often times (certainly with physical media) the most robust and ultimately powerful media and tools are the most cumbersome and unfamiliar to learn initially. Trust me, I started in metalwork and there is nothing that illustrates this principle more dramatically than that. Metal is both the most plastic substance on earth and also just about the toughest. But if you can make art with it, that art is very powerful.

While I still find Photoshop "better" for things like color adjustment and layer management (the tools are more robust and the preview works better, at least vs. Painter 8), for "painting" I think any objective analysis shows Painter to be more robust and powerful. I think for painting, Painter can do anything Photoshop can do plus a whole lot more, but the reverse is not true.

Of course, if you don't need or want anything more than what Photoshop does for you, that's fine too. I used to be that way, but forced myself to learn Painter by doing an entire piece in it from beginning to end. That proved very rewarding for me, and now I am a Painter user.

I would never try to force any artist to use a particular medium, or convince him/ her that one was better for what s/he wants to do. However, if I were to give any advice I would say, don't avoid a particular new medium because it's unfamiliar or cumbersome to learn at first. I know what it's like to feel like your art-making abilities have regressed when working with an unfamiliar medium- it's very frustrating and even depressing! But only after achieving a little mastery over the new medium can you say for sure if it's right for you.

My two cents...

-Chris

[Aberrant]

I don't think there's "better" only different. My usual thing is to bring pencils into painter and start painting, and once I'm far into it or finished I might bring it into photoshop to do any editing.

[meowy]

dear all experts, i would like to make my comment... just to tell people how i personally think/feel... >_<.
Perhaps the painter user and Photoshop user are both right, but i really think the quality of a painting has very little to do with the software, it's the painter who paint the image that matters. (after all, softwares are nothing more than just the tool, please correct me if i am wrong.)

However, i personally love Painter as my favourite painting tool, for its painter-friendly brush and pretty much every thing. (to me) But, i like using Photoshop for the final touch up and colour correction, i think they both do their job just fine... and i believe that both Painter and Photoshop can produce great work, depends on who is using it. ^_^.

Cheers, and happy painting. :D) (i am "trying" my best to get my ass out of the lousy painter line... help me~ >_<.)

L.L.

[Chris Beatrice]

... i really think the quality of a painting has very little to do with the software, it's the painter who paint the image that matters. (after all, softwares are nothing more than just the tool, please correct me if i am wrong.)

L.L.

I don't think that tells the full story. Sure, you can probably do just about anything you want with any medium (as long as you have the value and tonal range, obviously). But certain media do certain things more naturally, which is generally why we choose one over another. I find it funny that people often make the "just a tool" comment about Painter vs. Photoshop, but would never, for example, say that it doesn't make any difference whether you use watercolor, oils, acrylics, pastels or colored pencils. I think this is because many people, even digital artists, still don't think of the software as a medium, so much as a means to a print, or something.

[stark3d]

I Have Both
Both Are Great
Would Be Nice If They Both Were Combined
With Parinesi Paint Program
If I Will The Lotto Thats What I Will Do With My Money.

[meowy]

dude, thanks for the correction, i respect your point of view... but i still think both software can produce good painting, depends on who is doing it, and what style they preferred.
you're right, they two are quite different in a way, but so are artists. i think, or perhaps i shall say that i guess, all artists are different individual, and they all work differently; therefore, i wouldn't call anyone better or worse, 'cause they are just "different" (i personally prefer to paint with Painter, but it can be a different story for others, and i don't think it would be right to deny the value of one thing only because i didn't like it... no offense, but i am just sharing what i think. :P)

anyhow, i hope i am not making anyone upset, i didn't mean any thing bad. (first i was trying to defend Painter, but now i must clarify my point, a they are both good in their own way. ^_^.)

Cheers, and happy painting.

L.L.
took a day off, will go to government office and try to get rid of my military sh#t... (dude, i hope they let me paint if i have to join them by law... =_=.)

[Chris Beatrice]

I don't think one is better than the other either.
Both can produce great work.
Artists should pick the medium that is best for them.
What I said is, Painter can do more than Photoshop, but the reverse is not true (as far as Painting goes). Part of this also is that Painter generally takes longer to master, and a lot of people give up on it when it MIGHT in the end be the better medium FOR THEM. So I am always encouraging people to stick it out. I think a lot of artists "choose" Photoshop because it is more natural to work with at the beginning, but that is NOT the same thing as saying it's the right medium for them.

I think that's a fairly objective analysis. No matter how objective I try to be, someone always comes back with "it's just a tool", "one is not better than the other" and "artists should use what works best for them." Yes, I agree, but those are really just simplistic statements. There is a very fine line between choosing what's ultimately best, and simply going with what's easiest right now.

[stark3d]

Yeah It's Not The Type Of Paint That Make Your Paintings Great.
It Your Talent That Makes Them Great.

Ill Copyright That As A " Starkasium"

[Chris Beatrice]

Is there something wrong with you people?

Statements like this don't help anyone with anything.

If someone is trying to decide whether to undertake learning a new piece of software, or a new medium, things like "it doesn't really matter because you can make great art with all of them" really add nothing.

In the real world, to some degree it is the type of paint that makes your paintings great - that is, much of your success or failure will be based on choosing the right medium for your current intentions and your work habits.

[Jin]

One basic thing that makes all this way more confusing than it needs to be is the use (and often inappropriate use) of the terms:

Tool
Media
Medium

Another basic thing that makes it confusing is oversimplification (thanks, Chris).

The Term "Tool"

Neither Painter nor Photoshop is a tool. They're both software applications, or programs that provide tools and features an artist can use to create various kinds of digital art and/or manipulate/adjust existing digital images or digital photos (whether these images or photos were scanned or they originated as digital images or digital photos).

Photoshop has several drawing and painting tools found in what Photoshop calls the Toolbox, that can be used to create raster-based art. For example:

Brush Tool
Pencil Tool
History Brush Tool
Art History Brush
Blur Tool
Sharpen Tool
Smudge Tool
Dodge Tool
Burn Tool
Sponge Tool

Painter has one tool found in what Painter calls the Tools palette, that can be used to create raster-based art:

Brush

Each program offers Tool Presets (Photoshop term) or Default Brush Variants (Painter term) and in each program the user can create other Tool Presets (Photoshop) or Custom Brush Variants (Painter).

Painter's raster based brush hierarchy (organization) is:

Brush Library > Brush Category > Brush Variant.

To be used in Painter, all brush variants must be contained in a brush category (i.e. Airbrushes, Chalk, Pastels, Artist's Oils, Oils, and many more existing or custom brush categories created by the user).

To be used in Painter, all brush categories must be contained in a brush library. The default brush library loaded when Painter IX is installed is named Painter Brushes. On the Painter IX CD, there are many other brush libraries that can also be copied to the hard drive and loaded into Painter IX.

Collectively, these Painter brush libraries/brush categories/brush variants are called "brushes" for lack of another name that could possibly describe such a widely varied collection of brush libraries, brush categories, and brush variants. In Painter, the term "brush" is also used in reference to a single brush category (i.e. Airbrushes, Oils, or Pencils... or another brush category) and the term "brushes" is also used to refer to multiple brush categories (i.e. Airbrushes, Chalk, Pastels, Artist's Oils, Oils... etc.).

When Painter IX is installed and the default Painter Brushes library is loaded, there are 33 brush categories containing a total of 789 brush variants available to use.

.........

Edit added at 7:29 pm PST on May 17, 2005

NOTE: In Painter IX and any earlier Painter version, though a brush category and one of its brush variants can be selected, painting or drawing with that brush variant can only be done after the Brush tool is activated by either clicking the Tools palette's Brush tool icon or by clicking the "B" key. Again, that single tool, the Brush tool, is the only tool in Painter that allows us to draw and paint raster based imagery. Factors that control how a brushstroke looks are, among other things:

• The selected brush variant.

• Adjustments made to that brush variant by the user (adjustments to that brush variant's available brush controls).

• Pressure applied by the user when painting the brushstroke.

• Brush Tracking settings.

• Tilt of the stylus (pen) in relation to the tablet (when the tablet supports Tilt).

• Where the brushstrokes are made: On the Canvas over existing color, on a blank Canvas, on a Layer containing existing color, on transparent areas of a Layer.

• Whether or not the Pick Up Underlying Colors box is checked when brushstrokes are painted on a Layer above other colors on underlying Layers or the Canvas.

• If the brush variant uses Impasto lighting and depth and the brushstroke is made on a Layer above other Impasto brushstrokes, which option was first chosen from the Composite Depth drop down list.

• Which Paper is selected and how the Papers palette controls may have been adjusted.

• Whether or not the "V" key has been clicked to temporarily make the Brush tool paint straight lines.

• Whether or not the Shift key is held down to make the Brush tool temporarily paint horizontal, vertical, and 45 degree straight lines.

• The artist's level of skill, talent, and imagination.

End of Edit

.........

On the Painter IX CD, there are 20 additional brush libraries containing a rough count total of 43 additional brush categories which contain (again a rough count) a total of 406 additional brush variants.

I don't know the number of installed Tool Presets in Photoshop or the total number, including other Tool Presets that come with Photoshop. Maybe someone who uses Photoshop more than I do has counted all of them.

The Terms "Media" and "Medium"

In the following text, I'll talk mainly about Painter since I'm not enough of a Photoshop user to make equivalent statements about that program. Still, in general, the concepts apply to both programs:

The two terms "media" and "medium" used in traditional drawing and painting refer to such media as oils, watercolor, pencil, ink, chalk, pastels, etc.

In Painter, these two terms also refer to such (digital) media as oils, watercolor, pencil, ink, chalk, pastels, etc. plus other media that's only available using digital art software, in particular, Painter IX (and in many cases, also in earlier Painter versions).

Painter's trademark, Natural Media® refers to the fact that Painter simulates traditional media oils, watercolor, pencil, ink, chalk, pastels, etc.

When we use the term "Media" broadly in "traditional media" and "digital media", that does not refer to or describe the individual medium being used (i.e. oils, watercolor, pencil, ink, chalk, or pastels.... and/or many more).

Neither Painter nor Photoshop is "just a tool" or even "a tool".

Neither Painter nor Photoshop is "a medium".

Again, both are software applications, or programs, that offer tools and features, Tool Presets or Default Brush Variants, an artist can use to create digital art and/or manipulate existing digital images or digital photos.

To some degree, Photoshop can be used to simulate traditional media though that is not by all reports Photoshop's main purpose or strongest capability.

To a greater degree, Painter's Natural Media® brushes (again, a collective term) can be used to simulate traditional media since that's what Painter was designed to do and is Painter's most well known and most loved capability.


Jinny

[Jin]

Please see the Edit added to my previous post a couple of minutes ago:

Edit added at 7:29 pm PST on May 17, 2005


Jinny

[1-thought]

I think they are different tools for different needs, pshop better for textures, painter better for concepts.. I think both schools know this and push what they can in both

[jrr]

that's alot of blah blah blahing,
i like photoshop better because i started with it and i find it gives me more optionis. and like i said, i started with photoshop so i'm wa y more comfortable with it. painter has alot of tricks and i find that it's really easy to fall into the generic "painter look" trap.