Ranting of the forums! - this is to you non critiquers!

[SquaredS]

I'm sorry if this offends people...

but this is crit week and the lack of actual crits is amazing. I see more people blowing
the great artists here than actually giving feedback. This tells me one thing... the greats
post their shit to have their egos boosted and the poor folk who are itching to learn recieve
little to no feedback at all.

I understand I'm new here but I have been going back and checking lots of the old posts
and I'm seeing lots of this happening. Its enough to make me leave. I'm pointing a finger
to no one in particular and I'm upset with no one. I suppose I just wish there was a way that
people dont just vanish for months then come here, blast a whole bunch of great art... soak
up the comments and then dont take the time to take their professionalism and help those who
need it.

Because of this... every time I see ANY "great artist" on these forums post who I know has not
been returning the favor... you're not getting a comment from me. I'm sure that really saddens
some of you a great deal *sarcasm*. But seriously... give back to the community when you post your own work
(great artist or not).

People deserve compliments when they earned it... but I feel they really dont deserve them
if they havent been giving a critique or compliments to others on a forum such as this one.

I'm sure some jackass has already posted the same rant I have before. Some of you
might be sick of hearing all of this as well and for that I apologize. Let me finish this then by saying...
I was a tad disappointed when I have been posting for many, trying my best to be helpful to
both the newbs and the pros on this great forum (I was'nt just going - omg you're so nuggin futz with your
mad graphics ninja skillz!!!11). On my most recent piece I've recieved only 1
critique and the sad thing is... it was my girlfriend trying to cheer me up. But its not just me...
its lots of others recieving the same treatment.

I understand some of you are extremely busy and barely have time to do anything and to those
people you're excused. To the rest of you... !!!!!!!!!!!

Just wish there was some way you could not be allowed to post your own work till you've made like 20
comments first or something. HAHA dont ask me how you would do that though...

End of rant. Going back to happy SquaredS mode.

*sniffles* I love you guys...

P.S. If none of that made any sense, its because I was venting and I'm sure it just sounded like a bunch
of garbage then. I'll check back on this in a day and probably find I was typing all my English backwards
or something.

[SquaredS]

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=40311

so I just read that (sorry I dont normally come to the lounge guys/gals) and in reference to my comment above... AHHA you're not a jackass!

So now that I feel a tad stupid...

*vanishes like a ninja* :ninja:

[Skulldog]

I dunno, this place so far as been the best place for crits that I've never been, next to college classes. Everywhere elese has more ass kissing then real help.

But on the counter, yes, I do see more 'Oh wow, that's awesome" than I see actaully helpful posts. I understand that many of these comments come from people who don't feel their at a level then /can/ give in depth critiques. I guess this is something you just have to live with, and really take in account the help you do get here.

[SquaredS]

Dont get me wrong. I love these forums... I honestly believe this is the best forum site I've ever found.

I've tried them a few times and I've bounced around a bit. All of them were nothing but worship forums.

This place seems the best for what I do. I like the atmosphere here and the talent. It was simply a vent :) Theres so much to learn here.

I guess I'm just boycotting the people who do nothing but show off their work (has nothing to do with me being jealous of their work - this is to anyone who I feel is not giving anything back period). I'm going to talor my time to the little guys. Hopefully setting an example.

[Sammy]

Sorry --- everyone spends all their time debating 'creationism' vs 'evolution' .... or the state of politics of which they aren't educated on, nor really care about.

I haven't been able to make to many posts -- but I've answered every one of my emails and IM's from people looking for help :^^:

hopefully we can get a 'crit-week' once a month, that would be cool...

[oracrest]

Sorry --- everyone spends all their time debating 'creationism' vs 'evolution' .... or the state of politics of which they aren't educated on, nor really care about.



have you ever heard of the stoned monkey theory?

[SquaredS]

Well like I said :) I'm pointing a finger no one in particular. I have a feeling the people who SHOULD be reading this are not reading this at all. Haha... thats life.

On another note ;) could someone leave a comment on my last post of art in the finished section? The good, the bad... or you could just be like the people this rant was partially directed too and worship it :D HAHA... but thats not really what this place was designed to do huh?

[Sinix]

In reguards to the asspat:
Critiques help, definitely, but reguardless of the great advice you get, you need to put in the man hours in order to really improve. Personally, nothing gets me motivated more than looking at great art. Let's say a pro posts some wicked art on the board, do you expect me to ignore it because there are no good crits to make? Of course not, I'm gonna say "this is awesome", "you rock", "my nipples are hard", "put it in me", you know.. whatever standard compliment. Mainly because it got me cranked up to draw, so I want to put some focus on it so other people can see also... I would expect other people to do the same, I wouldn't want to miss out on some great art.

Aside from that, I've seen all the great artists on the site give amazing crits to people, and I've learned alot from them... so I can't really think of who you might have in mind. Even if someone only had time to post some art every once in awhile... I fail to see the damage in sharing stuff with us that we will enjoy seeing. But, I look around the forums and it seems like almost all threads do have critiques in them.. which I find pretty impressive.

I dunno, whatever. It's also not easy to just make crits sometimes. If you ask about certain elements, you're really likely to get replies though. Instead of just "Here's this drawing." You can ask how the proportions or perspective are, for advice on colors, whatever. It makes it easier for someone to jump in.

[Sammy]

you need to put in the man hours in order to really improve.

.Bingo.
We need, on these forums, a very constructive way to say "KEEP AT IT!!" that'll offer enough inspiration for someone to keep going.
Often, a lot of people are opening up the right doors (so to speak) --- and they really need to just keep that ball rolling.

Sometimes the best critique ever is "Do what you're doing... but do it every damn day!"

[egerie]

actually it's a great idea. I think I'll make a smiley/banner off ot it. A bit better than always saying "keep drawing, you're on your way" "cool, don't stop drawing" "nice, do that everyday". Because after a while, you just don't feel like rehashing the same things every time about anatomy, line weight, etc.

[thebluepuppy]

i agree with the pro ass kissing, but you have been on the boards for less then a month dude..... no offense

[Dan.v.D.]

i agree with i agree with the pro ass kissing, but you have been on the boards for less then a month dude..... no offense

but you have been on the boards for less than a year dude..... no offense.

hehe

i can´t think of a way to ever change that. it´s only human to be more interested in better stuff. and compared to how things where not 10 years ago (pre www) we all should consider us in heaven in terms of communication possibilities and availability of knowledge.

[gasmask]

great, all we need is another jetpack

[donkeyslayer]

Sometimes the best critique ever is "Do what you're doing... but do it every damn day!"
fucking right, sammy. i get told that so frequently... and it works. i forget to kick myself, so someone does it for me. aside from the occasional "the arm doesn't bend that way"

[LaPalida]

Sorry --- everyone spends all their time debating 'creationism' vs 'evolution' .... or the state of politics of which they aren't educated on, nor really care about.

Hah guilty as charged. But what the hell kind of crit can I give. I ain't no pro, what if I mislead someone or something. I tried to give crits but I don't even know if people listen to them anyway, probably just ignore them. :\

[donkeyslayer]

since people are drawing representationally more often than not, people know what things are 'supposed to look like' with lighting and anatomy and such. even a non-artist could tell you if you're drawing has a guy's arm too long or such. if you see something that could help out with a person's piece, point it out. more often than not, they will at least take it into consideration before they blow you off :P.

[SJ Bennighof]

I know I've been going over the crits forums and looking at many different threads...but it seems that I rarely feel that I have anything useful to say. I mean, I've been one of the chief players in both of the debates alluded to, but the fact its that I'm not knowledgable enough about art yet to feel that I have something to say to most stuff that gets posted in here. When I find something, I do say it, but that has been sparse. When I feel that something very important needs to be said, like an anatomy book referral, I usually PM that. I dunno. I guess this is more a self-defense post than anything, having debated my ass off as much as anyone, but there is a sense that some of us really don't know what to say. Me, I've just been drawing Loomis for the first time ever this week after having been pointed to The Site by a dude in my sketchbook, so I think it's usually wisest to keep my mouth shut when it comes to crits, at least until I've done some more Loomis studies.

EDIT: And also, so I'm doing what is most useful to getting me and my skillz to crit-ready level, I'm not touching a debate until I've finished the Loomis studies in Figure Drawing for All it's Worth and the Heads and Hands books. That's a solemn promise.

[Sok N. Wett]

SquaredS I see your from Seattle, welcome aboard. This is a great place to get critics, I have gotten a lot of critiques from alot of people, mostly friends that I've met on here. I haven't been putting anything out lately and it's all my fault, cause I ain't going no where with it, so like Sinix said I gotta put in some man hours to really improve. You've only been here less than a month, you haven't seen the good sides of critique yet, and there's been alot of good ones, check out StudioPC's thread to see what I'm talking about. There's a local CA.org sketch meeting in Seattle once a week if you didn't know.

My suggestion for those who can't crit because they are scared of being wrong, crit someone that are closer to your skill level, or someone below, cause you'll have at least a bit more knowledge than them. Don't be scared if anything crit the obvious first, and if you think something is wrong than state it like "i'm not sure but the legs looks kinda akward, it might just be me though." This way you can't be right or wrong :)

[Jason Manley]

i agree with

but you have been on the boards for less than a year dude..... no offense.

hehe

i can´t think of a way to ever change that. it´s only human to be more interested in better stuff. and compared to how things where not 10 years ago (pre www) we all should consider us in heaven in terms of communication possibilities and availability of knowledge.



the first aspects of our new technology in development will begin to be implemented in a matter of weeks. Communication will be the first to improve.

Please continue to crit and be constructive. We need everyones help...including the pros. If you get a crit...listen...decide if the words are right for you. Improve. Offer your own input. Help others to improve.



Jason

[SquaredS]

glad to see some of this feed back from all of you. I'm interested in what you're cooking Jason ;)

[FuT]

its true, we need more people to crit, but dont expect it to happen in one week. it takes time. sometimes there isnt nothing to criticise or you dont see something to crit. everyone needs time to time few good words to keep going. its frustrating when people dont notice your work and dont comment. luckily its changing, more and more people are giving attention to beginners.
my inspiration is that i want to share my art with all of you, i want to show what i have done and i want to see what everyone else has done. i feel excited when i have done a great picture and i can share it with others and what they think about it and how i can improve myself. this way i can give a little bit back to this community what it has given to me. thanks to this forum i started taking drawing seriously.

thanks to everyone and just keep drawing and sharing and helping each others.

:yayca: :yayca: :yayca:

[Prometheus|ANJ]

I'm have some nasty deadlines atm. so all I have time for is some ramblings in the lounge area.

Writing a good crit takes time (and a paintover even longer). However, many times I found myself writing the exact same thing to everyone, so I wrote my tutorial and kinda bailed on the whole crit thing.

[dogfood]

so I wrote my tutorial and kinda bailed on the whole crit thing.

You, sir, have done more than your share with that tutorial. I am constantly refering to it and recommend it whenever I can.

I salute you.


SquaredS, this is an age-old problem that we can only solve ourselves. As you note, the folks not critting (non-critters) probably aren't reading this. The rest of us (critters), are doing what we can, but I think there are some cool things coming down the road to help. It's still good to vent sometimes.

[Jens]

Some of you should come in IRC, you get usually get crits when you ask for them there. Very helpfull.

[Taj]

I totally agree with you SQUARDS, i joined this forum last year (and the year before that,and again in, i think in 2001, forgot the passwords/names for all those) anyways, all that time ive been here i was so afraid of being rejected and insultedfor my lack of skill. when i saw peoples skills improve here, especially the "journey of absolute rookie" thread, i managed to get up the courage to post a sketchebook (ive never shown my art to anyone, not even parents) and what do i get 1 comment, by a great guy, and one by someone with a gimmick account. what the fuck? I posted during critique week because i thought it would be awesome.

After this experiance, i started to look through threads by the big guns, i noticed something, not a single critique, but pages and pages and PAGES of "omg u rock lol" "omg thats so good keep up good work", so pages of ass licking, but these artists never post outside theyre own thread, how is this helping the community! it spreads theyre name but nothing more. it really bugs me.


THANK YOU SQUARDS FOR POSTING EXACTLEY WHAT I WAS FEELING THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU


i dont know if that made sense but the pages of ass kissing here where pissing me off also, i want be a good artist, but how can i if im my only (bias) critique.

[SJ Bennighof]

Some of you should come in IRC, you get usually get crits when you ask for them there. Very helpfull.

This is true. You post a pic, ask for crit, and at least one person always gives you something.

[Prehistoric]

squareds.

there's a lot more to this site than just getting crits on your drawings. you can learn a lot just by watching other people.

come on over to a sketch night sometime. we do it every weekend at cafe vita on capitol hill. that's one of the best things i've got from this site. actual human contact with other artists. you bet your ass you'll get some crits there if you want them.

seattle sketch thread (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?p=434943#post434943)

[talbot]

However, many times I found myself writing the exact same thing to everyone, so I wrote my tutorial and kinda bailed on the whole crit thing.

I was thinking about this a while ago and have a possible solution. I don't know if it's plausible but I thought I'd throw this out and see if it has any merit. It could save people some trouble of writing the same thing over and over and would provide a quicker reply to the artist.

How about gathering the typical comments given to a beginning artist ("work on your anatomy," "develop you values," etc.) into an .jpeg with a somewhat detailed explanation of what, say, 'working on anatomy' entails, and then hyperlinking the comments into the post looking for a crit? Or maybe making one .jpeg for each issue to be addressed since a picture might excel in certain areas but lack in others. There of course would be a disclaimer at the top explaining something along the lines of 'Due to the amount of art posted here, it is often hard to get helpful and prompt critiques from established artists. In order to help you on your way, we offer you a list of issues your should consider for your piece.’ (Word choice would be critical since it would keep the post from sounding like a cold automated response. Not to mention it would keep the advice from sounding dismissive. The wording should sound like something from the mouth of Bridgeman or Loomis and be fact based since opinions would likely be ignored. Helpful but not hurtful.)

Anyway, I don’t know if this would be possible, but it could solve a recurring problem and help some of the people here since not everyone can get advice from people like Foster, Prom and Fredflickstone. I hope this helps...

[madster]

Not every artist's style is meant to be "anatomically" correct, although that is almost always a given crit. Of more concern is how to diplomatically provide a crit that is positive and encouraging, when the work posted is flat, and looks like no more than 10-15 minutes was spent on it. I'm not saying a work has to take longer, but it shouldn't look like it was done that quickly. It's almost impossible to provide helpful comments, when your first thought on looking at a piece is, "this looks like you hardly spent any time on itat all, what am I supposed to be evaluating?" Anatomy, although often a valid issue, is far overshadowed by flat hair rendering, facial features with no depth or value shading, and figure sketches with little to no background/environmental surroundings, just empty sketches floating on the page. To attempt to suggest, "You need to put some more effort into this before requesting C&C" only serves to anger others, true as the statement may be.

I think this is why critiques are in such short supply around here. A lot of the pieces that get asspats are simply more complete than the semi-doodles getting posted. Beyond a generic "these are issues you should be considering" list of good artistic considerations, such as Composition, Perspective, Value, Negative Space, The Golden Mean, Proportions, and Light Source(s), there's really not much to critique on a lot of the stuff posted without possibly hurting someone's feelings and discouraging them from trying at all, much less trying harder. To give a good critique, there has to be enough to work with to base a critique upon. WetCanvas.com has a "Structured Critique" area, separate from its general asspat "Critique Corner," and anyone requesting a structured critique gets one, painful as they may be. Here, most pieces posted couldn't stand up to the basics of a structured critique due to lack of details or completion. Any and every scribble is posted, with a "C&C welcome," but if true critique guidelines were applied, the C&C would be a bloodbath for the poster, and there really is no "nice" way to tell someone, "this looks like a 9-year old drew it," although you could take a whole lot more words than needed to try to convey that.

Gee, Super WOOT, my 100th post!

[dogfood]

Style without substance is a crutch. I've been using this a lot in my recent crits. While it's difficult to crit those who just toss up something that their girlfriend said looked cool, a sweeping dismissal would also encompass those who have a genuine interest in art, but very little idea how to get better or where else to go and that would be unfortunate.

I'm with you, it's a tough road.



Yay! Congrats on your centennial.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

Yeh yeh Madster is telling the truth.

Just found this Wetcanvas crit guidelines thing (http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/509/168/) from this thread (http://wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30367).

Anatomy, light-sourcing, perspective, etc can certainly be sacrificed to get a good construction, composition and emotion. Also, as long as you are consistent you can get away with all sort of crazyness, just look at the heads in manga.

Still, you must know the rules to break them... propely.


Here's something important
Not everyone wants crits, it can be nice with asspats too. But if you do want crits it's much much easier to get a discussion going by posting a couple of things for people to comment on. "(pic) Crits plz" doesn't work. "Here's something I did (pic)" doesn't work either.
Instead post some 'selfcrits'. Point out the things you feel insecure about, things you have considered or tried. People will have something immediate to reflect upon, agree or disagree with, and maybe use as a springboard for further elaborations.

[dogfood]

Usually, when someone pops the cork on the "Comment Whine" (becuase it's been 30 whole minutes and no one has rubbed their hiney), I give that very advice: tell us what you are trying to do, tell us where you ran into problems, and what you are unable to resolve. It will take a lot of effort to get that critical mass, though, when new folks (and lazy folks) will see that this is what will help them get better and more crits.

This push for crits may have been a good place to start it, or perhaps another push, where the focus is on the poster to give more input in addition to more crits.

[Alzorath]

I think that both commenting by posters and critiquing by viewers need to be pushed in critique weeks... especially focusing on the new, or lesser known, posters - because (this is from first hand experience) it seems as though only those people who put a nudity warning or something similar, or are very well known in the community get more than a little c&c - which is discouraging to those trying to become part of the community. I'm willing to bet that if some of the more prominent community members would step up and critique for the "newbies" it would promote other people doing the same, expanding the community a bit.

We're all basically the "greeting staff" (in a business sense) of this community, everyone from the best to the worst artists - and as in business, it takes making those who are customers (people looking to join an art community) feel welcome or "one of the crowd." Everyone doesn't have to be friends with everyone else, but at least go in, comment, critique, and give them a chance - may end up being someone who helps take this community to the next level, you never know.

If you have to, just drop in with a one sentence reply "it feels a little static" would work on some of them - although a longer reply would be appropriate (ie - helping the artist create better works), at least this lets them know that there's people out there with opinions on their work (and viewing them)

[LaPalida]

Here's something important
Not everyone wants crits, it can be nice with asspats too. But if you do want crits it's much much easier to get a discussion going by posting a couple of things for people to comment on. "(pic) Crits plz" doesn't work. "Here's something I did (pic)" doesn't work either.
Instead post some 'selfcrits'. Point out the things you feel insecure about, things you have considered or tried. People will have something immediate to reflect upon, agree or disagree with, and maybe use as a springboard for further elaborations.

I disagree with that. I think if you point to the mistakes that you think/know are there you will bias the critics and they will only look at what you pointed to and not notice other things (what may really be wrong or right with the picture). Never ever point out your mistakes. You have to see if other people can spot them. Otherwise you'll just get an echo of your own crit (this is personal experience). That's not constructive at all. This forum has professional artists ... they should be able to pick up on your mistakes right away.

[Alzorath]

I tried a few searches (although I might just be doing the wrong terms) - but maybe a "Critique FAQ", as well as a "Poster Comment FAQ" would be in order...

IE a guide on what to post with your images to get the maximum benefit out of your image's critiques ("Poster Comment FAQ") that would include things such as - explaining what style you were going for, what medium you used, what you were making an image of (usually not necessary, but sometimes is), etc.

and a guide on how to properly critique (even some of the better artists can use this - there's are ways to critique better than I have seen on more than a couple posts around here) - basically including things such as "refer to object on negatives, refer to person on positives" (example of a good way: "You did a really good job drawing the character's anatomy. Only issue I see is I think that the character's arm should be a little more to the left to fix the balance of the image" - example of a bad way: "The character's anatomy is very nicely done, but you need to move the character's arm to the left to fix the balance")

Neither of these are abrasive, and seem nice enough when writing them, but the artist will have a more positive response to the first one when receiving it as a critique because you personalize the "asspat" to him, while dropping the error fixes onto the object (preventing the person from taking it personally). Also the 2nd one is more in your face, while the first is more friendly in tone.

Little things like that can change the quality of a critique easily - and also help people feel more included rather than pushed away. (there's a whole list of these rules, most of them are the same as literature critiquing with a few exceptions).

[Prometheus|ANJ]

Lapalida> Well, that's not my experience. Sometimes I suspect something is wrong, but nobody dares to comment on it cuz it would seem nitpicky. Writing a short list of selfcrits show people that you can take it, and they're more likely to comment on other things aswell... helps them 'unclam'.


I think Alzorath is right that grammar and tone can be important (person positive?), but, (here comes the negative) not everyone have english as their first language. And having to be diplomatic and 'nannying' everytime you want to point out something... I dunno, feels silly. Sometimes I just drop the negative bluntly in their face. Artists should be able to take it.

A poster comments FAQ would be great!

Maybe a Crit + and - smiley?

http://web.telia.com/~u48508900/anj_plus.gif Easy to click on, easy to spot.

http://web.telia.com/~u48508900/anj_minus.gif Seems kinda nazi though, a long list of minuses in your face. Sometimes it's better sentence construction to put both minus and plus stuff in the same sentence. I dunno, maybe this idea could work though if people got used to a more harch and honest crit system. It can be hard to decide what's plus and minus though, like that last sentence, people will just have to wing it if it to work.


One thing I often post is the value thing I did, I could touch it up later and add the text to the jpg. My site is down now so I can't show you which one I'm talking about.

[Dizon]

We don't really need the professionals to give us crits. There are alot of non pros here who give crits because what's important is the knowledge we share to others regardless of our status.

[Carnifex]

interesting discussion and i can't contribute much to it.(edit: ok,i did)
just that,what angers me most personally is how sketchbooks are critizised.you have some well-known or especially good artists,along with some recent newbies that show quite some skill already.their sketchbooks are mostly built like this: 3 pics max from the artist himself,and then atleast 20 comments on how good he is. and then there's the broad masses of not-so-well-known members and those who've been around for quite some time,commented alot but didn't post so much until recently. in their sketchbooks the relatio comments-pics is reverse. 20 posts from the artist,max 3 responses from anyone. example given: cartoonfox-quite well-known,and because i can't think of anyone else really right now-me.been around here for pretty long time already,and i though ppl would know me by now and be interested to see what i can come up with,but nope.i have to wait for days to perhaps find one response in my sb from some friend who stumbled upon my work again after i talked to him earlier. and that goddam pisses me off. i dunno if i'm at the same skill level as cartoonfox,but as far as i can see,that might be the cause.i mean we're even the same age. and i just don't get it! what the hell does he do that i don't?! he doesn't update more often than me,he doesn't comment that more often than me(look at my postcount,k?) and yet he receives perhaps 5 times the comments i get.
sorry for this ass-long post,but that's one thing that really disturbs me.and i'm quite tired atm and thus not in the best mood.

[darth massacre]

Carni...it took a while before my thread had replies....but seriously I couldn't be bothered. I mean, if someone wants to say something, cool...if not, then I'll take it as if nothing is wrong and keep doing what I do >:D Keep plugging away.....



I think its not difficult to crit someone's work without being inflammatory. I am guilty of using some strong words at times....but only because I feel the person deserves it. Ie asking for help without actually trying, getting someone to "please help me visualize" which is equivalent to "draw something for me" and so on. Otherwise I make it a point to get positivity out of someone who is really trying.

[dogfood]

It's tough in this format to know how much frosting the brussel sprout needs. I would say that a higher percentage of teenage artists are more sensative to how their work is percieved and accounts for so many of them at the "butt-rub" sites. As we mature and gain experience, we are better able to seperate our self-worth as human beings from out work (supposedly) and realize that honest, constructive critiques are a nice tool for helping us get better. But in those early days... I crushed a kid a couple years ago at another site. There was something about his drawing that I liked, but my crit ended up being very stark. It wasn't mean, but it was long with very exact language. He flamed me, then retracted and apologized. I explained myself better and urged him to continue. For the remaining year I frequented the forum, I never saw him again. He had talent and at least a little skill and I just hope he kept drawing. So, now I tend to be a bit more careful, but still try to be as exact, just not as harsh.

[LaPalida]

I think Alzorath is right that grammar and tone can be important (person positive?), but, (here comes the negative) not everyone have english as their first language. And having to be diplomatic and 'nannying' everytime you want to point out something... I dunno, feels silly. Sometimes I just drop the negative bluntly in their face. Artists should be able to take it.

Totally agree with that. I think the best criticisms are the plain truth. You have to be honest with people. Otherwise you're not helping. If the picture has someone with monkey arms then you should say it. It's not about someone's ego here it's about art. So if you criticize someone's art they should know that you are criticizing the art not them. If they get offended well ... too bad for their thin skin.

[madster]

Dogfood and LaPalida, thank you! It's SO nice to know I'm not alone in feeling that an honest critique, although considered "brusque" or "harsh", does not necessarily always connote "cruel" or "disheartening" in some circles.
The problem is, an honest critique is not meant to discourage, merely to point out visual errors based on a fairly well established criteria for evaluation. That some confuse this with a generalized "wow! That's really good!"-type compliments found on other sites, and when critiqued, reply with anger, or worse yet, guilt (I've given up on drawing, I realize now I'm not very good at it'), that, too makes one hesitant to venture up an honest critique.

I think instead of a plus/minus icon, critiquers should be offered icons such as a marshmallow(soft - 0-1 negatives), a ruler(stricter - 2-3),or an axe(major problems - 4 or more). Then the poster could better pick and choose what level of criticism they wanted to read...

[SJ Bennighof]

Yeah, I don't want people to be telling me that my stuff is good in areas where it isn't. I mean, sure, the "looking good so far" at the beginning of a post is nice, but I also wat peopple to tell me what sucks, and how, so I can make it better.

BTW, starting pretty soon here, I'm going to spend the whole day drawing Loomis studies.

[Sok N. Wett]

I get a fair amount of crits and praises, and I also try to give as much crits as I can. Sometimes another poster might have stated all the facts and all i can really say is good job and work on what he said. Also one thing that I've notice is that more people will come your way when you get better meaning once you took all the crits and actually advance on. My stuff isn't quite that good yet, and there's alot of stuff that needs improvement on and sometimes I don't think they would want to keep posting the same response until I haven gotten the grasp of the problem. If anything learn from other people's sketchbook, see how they are fixing their mistakes, don't always depend on crits coming your way in your thread. First time I posted it took 3 days before I got a response but then again I was new, and didn't really know anybody. That changed after I met them in person and also started critiqueing other people's sketchbook. Find a person who's style you want to emulate and ask her/him a question. Some people will actually take a look at your sketchbook and give a reply back. I don't think I'm making any sense....anways back to the bathroom I go.