Question regarding Web Design....and Random BS about what's going on...

[bRyaN]

After months spent wallowing in mediocrity i've decided to put my foot down...

I've come up with a plan that involves me finishing things that've ive started....

-primarily my portfolio due March 3rd for college..
-secondly the Sketchbook Project 3 which i have had for months...
-And thirdly a goddamn website which i started planning out a year ago....

They finally changed my position at work after 3 years of asking to the Graphic Design Department...which is pretty lame due to the fact that everything has to be super cookie cutter ...but it's hella better than Customer Service and Routing Buses...so things are looking up...

One of the things they are gonna have me do is Web Designing (which i've never done before, i'm learning on the fly here)..

I'm hoping to apply everything i learn to develop my own website...

Now the person teaching this stuff to me is saying that using Frame tags is no good...she stresses tables and what not...and she tells me i'm never gonna have to use framesets...
But when i view the source code for some artist sites, it seems frames(combining tables) are the way to go...

I wanna be able to do a news thingie about what i'm up to(for those who care) and have it scroll when new stuff is added...

Which one is it?

[Blackhawk]

Neither, learn CSS.
CSS is going to be the new way to go for awhile until something better comes along. You can do everything that frames and tables can do with CSS, but do it easier and better.

http://www.w3schools.com is one place to look for CSS stuff.

http://www.csszengarden.com is a great place to look for webdesign ideas in general, but all the different sites on there are using the same HTML page with the same CSS document attached to it with just the variables defined differently in the CSS document. It's quite amazing what you can do with this stuff.

[cucaracha]

jup, css is the way to go.
I'm doing a lot of webdesign myself, mostly community and gaming sites. therefore, I use tables, because a lot of content has to change dynamically - together with heavy loads of graphics.

if you want dynamic content without frames, PHP is the answer.
we developed a content management system where you can add news, images, edit news, have a forum, everything :) but it's not free /m\

get a book about PHP, news systems or content management (like adding pictures) isn't hard.

[bRyaN]

awesome...

i'll look into CSS when i'm gonna do my own site then...

Still have to learn HTML tho, for work...

Thanks

[Blackhawk]

Definitely still learn HTML, it's the basis for all the concepts involved, CSS is just an add in to HTML basically that replaces a lot of the style and formatting problems that plagued HTML in the beginning. It makes text and formatting of the webpages much simpler, and much more accessible.

[strych9ine]

Either CSS or tables for a beginner. I find that nested tables is easier for a more graphic intensive site, even though it's not exactly the optimal way to go. You'll have a lot more control with them using a WYSIWYG editor like Dreamweaver.

If you got any questions bro I'd be glad to help ya. :perv:

[Blackhawk]

Yeah, nested tables is easier when using WYSIWYG editors, but I have a general dislike for those period. Especially if he is going to be doing webdesign work for his company, he should do himself and anyone else a favor that has to look at his code by learning how to code by hand and put it together. Not only would the code be much cleaner and properly commented, but you won't be dealing with the god awful (IMO) CSS implementation in a lot of the WYSIWYG editors.

When you can build it up yourself, then the graphics intensity doesn't become an issue, CSS allows you to basically arrange anything anywhere just by changing a few variables in the CSS document for the graphic element. You want to move a logo, change it's hit box size if it happens to be a link, etc. etc. CSS could do that easily. Far more easily than having to dig through a 6 level deep table to remove the image, only to have build another table or sub-level to the tables somewhere else in the HTML which is way too much work IMO.

Either way, what works for some may not work for others, but if your going to make a job out of doing webdesign, I'd try to stay away from using tables whenever the same situation could be handled far more easily in CSS.

[bRyaN]

Nate and Cody-master Flex...thanks dawgs....

The person i'm working with is thoroughly impressed with the knowledge i've obtained in the course of 3 days....she tells me that i have learned a quarter of the course work that she went to school for..lol...but i think shehas a crush on me...

Thanks again fellas..i'll be spending the next few weeks learning this CSS thing...

[Blackhawk]

No problem Bryan.

There is one downside to CSS that want you to be aware of first, don't get the impression that I think it is the end all be all. It is rather easy to learn in my opinion, but the one major disadvantage of it is it seems that every web browser wants to display CSS differently. How it looks in IE may look slightly different in Firefox and different in Opera and drastically different on IE on Macintosh. There are things you can do to get around these issues in your CSS code, but it takes a lot of work and a lot of trial and error. But pretty much after you learn the inconsistencies between browsers and how they display something, you'll learn how to program around it and make it work on everything. Unfortunately this situation won't clear up until all the web browsers follow the same CSS standards.

You will find that Safari, Opera, and Firefox display CSS much truer to nature and closer to eachother, you won't see as many problems between those three as you will see between Internet Explorer and everything else. Microsoft has their own little gig going with CSS for some reason and it makes it a literal pain in the ass sometimes making it work.

[bRyaN]

It's funny that you mentioned Nested Tables, cause my supervisor swears by them...
But i get what your saying about having to dig deep for things, some of the code is ridiculous...
the DOE of NYCs websites are all built using tables and nested tables...
I usually have to do a keyword search to find what i'm looking for....

Right now i'm hand coding, doing the code first in notepad, then taking it into Microsoft Visual Studio.NET..i'm trying to remember the tags by heart, so i don't have to depend on help from programs...

In regards to the Browser issues with CSS, i'll be able to check between IE and Firefox i might need to call in somehelp from you guys who use Opera and other browsers....thanks for the heads up...

i'm certainly not gonna make career out of this tho, but i do eventually wanna build a stable and organized website independently...and it was either this or customer service, which is a nightmare and one of the reasons why i'm balding lol...

[bRyaN]

CSS looks crazy by the way...

That csszengarden website is fantastic tho...

i''m still having a few problems understanding how to set-up a style sheet...

[Blackhawk]

Yeah, read and try the tutorials at the w3schools website. That's basically how I learned CSS was from there. I won't lie, it will take a bit to learn CSS, but after you do it's cake. Variables are very easy, straightforward, more of the learning curve revolves around HOW everything works in situations and on different browsers and adjusting for that. But once beyond that, it's rather easy and you can get a little more advanced with it.

[Pontemonti]

CSS is basically a way around setting the same stupid HTML attributes for all your elements. Instead of typing the same <font face=".." size="..." color=".."> tag inside every table cell you can set the fonts for all table cells at once with css. And you can do way more advanced things than that.
When using CSS, write as few HTML tags and attributes as you possibly can. no font tags! no color attributes! no width or height attributes! no alignment attributes! etc...
Use layers (div tag) instead of tables unless you're actually creating a table.
Oh, and learn to write (valid) XHTML instead of HTML.

Good luck bryan! And just give me a shout if you're having problems... :)

[bRyaN]

I heard that XHTML didn't catch on like it was supposed to...wasn't it introduced in 2000...

Ponte, i'm gonna use your assistance as often as possible...hey you offered.. :dead:

Thanks guys..

[plsangel]

Hi bryan, I've been messing around with HTML and XML for almost a year now and didn't know much about CSS until recently...a friend of mine showed me this site and now I'm totally hooked. GASP!....I was going to send you to csszengarden but it looks like someone already beat me to it! Oh well, it's well worth learning.

Congrats on your new job and new found inspriration! I hope you'll share your portfolio with us when you finish =)

Ember

[bRyaN]

Hey Ember...
I'm actually gonna start organizing and designing my own site...
A few thing to get through first like my porfolio and the sketchbook for the sketchbook project...
i'm just doing a lot of clean up and additions, which is not glamorus but it's fun...

[Pontemonti]

I heard that XHTML didn't catch on like it was supposed to...wasn't it introduced in 2000...
Well...lazy people don't do stuff unless they are forced to or they can see how much better it is. The difference between HTML and (Strict) XHTML isn't very big... Basically, XHTML is more strict, which is a good thing for the web browsers (you can't possibly imagine how hard it must be to parse a web page...it's more than a mess). For example, all tags must be closed.

:)