I love France!!!

[mcotie]

I've been to France, ate in France, drank in France, stayed at cool French people's house, and drooled over French art.

I am american by birth but my heritage has deep, eternal roots in France. (Jean Côté, of Mortagne Perche,Normandy, 1600's)

regardless of the crap going on in the world, it will not shake my love for France!!!!




(just opening a brew for my French Conceptart buddies!)

Mitch COTE

[gekitsu]

art is inter-national, mitch, as are we... kind of ;)
:chug: brew germany -> united states

we spend a good bunch of our time "talking" to people all over the earth about a common passion, respecting everyone, no matter which country, skin color, sex or religion.
't does need a bit more than politics going nuts against this ;)

[Tedsuo]

Ah, France. Your artists astound us. Your friendship makes us happy. Your accent is king. Your women are beautiful, and your wine gets them drunk.

For these reasons, I salute you! :thumbsup:



And Gekitsu- German beer and schnitzel are the best. Hands down.

[nuked rabbit]

My girl is from Normandy.
So you could say that i share the love for the french.

[bengal]

art is international, bush is not. keep loving my country, buddies!! :)

[sparth]

mcotie yea it's a very complex matter, and i'm damn scared about the near future. i can't even imagine seing this gap growing between france and the us, it's becoming insane.

i love USA as much as you can love France.
i've got american family, my uncle is from pensylvania.
got cousins in florida, hawaii, washington. (a cousin even works for the nsa! but shhhhh ;) ) i lived in florida myself in the eighties.

now when you read some of thatinsane crap (http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/letters/68817.htm), it's scary.
racism, frustration, anger, coming from both countries.
same stuff is happening over here, illogical anti-americanism is rising. i just hate that.
this link between the actual situations, and the gi's who died in normandy was so hurting. these americans also belong to the history of france. i am myself fascinated by that period and dramatic historical event. i think about these guys often, and i consider normandy an extraordinary area, full of history and painful souvenirs.

anyway. here at CA, art is so powerful, and so much important to our own eyes. people are respected for what they're worth, and for their art. and it will remain that way.

take care mcotie, as well as all of you mates.

sparth

[davi]

sparth come here and live in my basement
bengal can come too.

we can eat some freedom fries.

[bengal]

Originally posted by davi [B]some freedom fries.[B]

:D :D :D what a joke, changing even the name of the fries and sending french wine into trashcans is the dumbiest thing i've ever heard human do!!!!!!!

ah............. (deep breath)

[Sky]

Originally posted by sparth

now when you read some of thatinsane crap (http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/letters/68817.htm), it's scary.

sparth


:eek: I can't believe some of those things people were saying. That truly is insane.

[Android]

bush is the biggest international terrorist around, I dont blame any country for not wanting to join our oil and coal overloards it this battle. France rocks, I spent some time there drawing portraits, it is one of the most beautifull countries around, and the people are awesome. this is our fight, and its not even a fair fight to start out with why we need to drag other countries into this mess is beyond me. I hope you french dudes can find it in your hearts to forgive us for the destruction we are about to unleash upon the world, but I wont blame you if you dont.


AJ

[Coma]

insane crap



Wow... What a mass of unbridled stupidity...
Utter morons and hotheads...

[amphex]

Davi, lemme get in on that? ;D

[mcotie]

I find myself in between a rock and a hard place with all that's going on nowadays. I have but 3 years and some change left in my commitment to the US Air Force. and I can/t find the stomach to finish. When I joined 16 years ago, it was the right thing to do. i was needed and my gov't took care of its service members. I am also in a situation where because I am in the service, I am unable to speak out about how I really feel. Like many other service members they do it because it's their jobs. Lately alot of these feelings have been showing in my artwork. I think it's the only place where I can actually voice my opinion and do it comfortably. And with positive results.
With any luck in the 3 yrs I have left nothing will happen that would require my service. But it is highly unlikely. Am I being a coward? some of my military peers would think so. But I think sometimes it takes more courage to back down from a fight than it does to take the first swing. I've done both, I should know.
I always wondered as a child what it would have been like to grow up in the Viet Nam era. Which side would I have chosen, Which choice would I have made, to fight in the jungle or fight in the US streets against the gov't. Well now I know. Now I know the hard decisions our parents had to make with either choice. At least I hope they were hard decisions. There are too many people today making easy decisions.

not asking for sympathy, just talking with my buds!

mitch

[Fipse]

Hi Mcotie,

I can feel a bit with you ... I´ve got many friends in the american forces here in Germany and I´m really frightended about what can happen. Somehow I´m still hoping everything will come out good - some rest of my times in the german peace-movement. Let´s share this little reclusive corner of internationalism where just art and the feeling for it is a matter of measurement ...

Fipse
(who´s living about 200 Miles from France and has never been there longer than for the transit to Dover - and is really hard thinking aout changing this ...)

[bengal]

mcotie>> you have my sympathy for sure, dude!! :)

android>> this is not all american folks' fault, only a few's at the government ; there's nothing to forgive, you know, there are just things to empeach now i think.
;)

[otis]

hey guys, the only reason Bush is trying to get other countries in the security coucil on board is to keep the U.N from being obsolete. The U.N has imposed over 14 resolutions on Iraq in the past 5 years, and Saddam has blown them all off. Now if the U.N. is going to mean anything, they better follow up. It's like diciplining a kid, if you keep telling them to stop without any consequeces, they will run all over you.
Bush can go into Iraq and end all this b.s. tommorow, but he knows that if the international commitee is going to hold any value in this world, it better do somthing.

In my opinion: We can't even get a room full of congress men to agree on an issue..how in the world will you get a bunch of countries to agree on ANYTHING???

All you protesters who protest war...your not original, or better than anyone else...nobody wants war, but as history proves: you have to fight evil in order to beat it.

[otis]

Mcottie:

You are in no way a coward! I respect you for volunteering in our armed forces. And you do have a say in what goes on around the world! We are lucky to have forums like these.
I know why you doubt your own government.---Vietnam.
Look.....
People volunteered to fight in WW2 becuase the world HAD to come together to fight a HUGE evil in the world. Remmember,America didn't want to join the war even after France and 80% of western Europe was under Hitler's control! It took Pearl Harbor to change that!

Now since Vietnam, Free Love, anti-gov't , movement, and conspiracy theorists, some U.S citizenswill trust a dictator with a rap sheet so long over their own gov't!! THIS SCARES ME TO DEATH!

Once again, NOBODY wants war, but if the world community just lets a dictator do what ever he wants, things will get a lot more out of control, and we ALL will have a bigger mess to deal with later.

For all you ignorant people trying to compare the US to a "terrorist"/ Destructive nation shame on YOU! If the USA stayed out of world affairs, do you actually think shit like WW2 would never happen again??

So go on and bash me with your hate mail and empty solutions to this problem with Iraq. You are right, Saddam is not a threat to most nations YET. Lets forget the people who have to live under his control every day, just like we didn't want to believe about Hitler's treatment of the Jews.

[otis]

Andrew...wtf are you talking about???
You r kidding right? If you think we live in a terrorist nation why don't you leave before we all are forced to join the army and unleash hell upon the WHOLE world!

[otis]

Sorry back to the topic:

I LOVE FRANCE TOO!!! (Although I will never wear a speedo!)

I lived in Paris for 2 months, and the poeple were great. Maybe they just appreciate us artists over there!

[mcotie]

You'll get no hate mail from me. but it's possible you will from others, and I may too. which was the reason for starting this thread initially: the hatred towards people for standing for what they believe. Anti-French this, anti-American, that.
I can respect your thoughts believe me I have the same thoughts as well: "Is it the right thing?" But one thing that puzzles me with Iraq is we don't see the Iraqi people asking for our help or protection, or our western ways, the way we saw in Europe prior to WW2. THAT is what scares me. Sure we will kick their ass, no doubt about it. Saddam couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. But then we will have to stay there to tighten things up, right? I mean we've been there since 1991, keeping it secure. So the way it stands now, I can plan on sending my son and daughter (drafted) over there to protect people that don't even want our protection. Top that holiday in the sand off with our old terrorist enemies
(remember them), blowing up the living quarters of americas finest, just like Dahran.

All of this because we will look bad for backing down. backing down from something we should not have started in the first place. The first Desert War should have been finished in 1991. Not 12 years later.

mitch

[otis]

Mitch,

First of all I have no idea why we didn't finish this thing in 91 except for the reason, we declared in the begining we wouldn't romove Saddam, and (Pobably for political correct reasons). As for the people of Iraq, they are not speaking out in favor of us because as any Iraqi who has defected or escaped the rule under Saddam will tell you, they are terrified to: Saddam would execute not just the person defying him, but his family too! Why the fuck do you think he has to hide, or has his"inner circle"? Saddam does not speak to his people publicly. Even his bodyguards are not tusted.
The people of Iraq don't support him, they are too afraid to oppose him.

Just like in 91, the minute Iraqi's see American soldier they will surrender(As long as we get rid of Saddam) And this time we will..

Don't worry about sending your kids into a draft, as long as we keep the draft extinct. Many political congress men are trying to bring it back, they want it for illigitamite reasons. They are playing the race card.
In my opinion, you have a better force if they volunteer, who the fuck wants a bunch of soldiers who don't believe in their cause or purpose?
So kill the draft!

[mcotie]

were you a debate major in college? he he

Maybe if the people were so Pro-Am, it would be easy to topple the current gov't without military force.

who the f*** wants a bunch of soldiers who don't believe in their cause or purpose? I am not alone.

mitch

[sparth]

otis: if you want to read more about it, there's an eatpoo thread here:

eatpoo war thread (http://www.eatpoo.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8653&start=240&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=)

no matter the side you're in, wether you're for the war or against, the thing that has astonished me the most is the ignorance of a lot of peeps from europe or the states.

no wonder why there are so many extremistic comments in there.

have a nice read. :D

[otis]

Nope,

Just like to look at things rationally. Used to get caught up in mass media, and opinion. Hell I grew up in Berklely and Oakland! But I learned from history, and the difference between right/wrong/ evil/good/ etc.
that....

The right choice is not always the easiest choice.

Listen to your gut, not your emotion.

and above all, history will repeat itself because people NEVER change.

People are gnereally good, and that's why evil can take over. Good people don't like to rock the boat, and think that appeasing evil people will "calm" things down. This is not true, evil people wil ony TAKE advantage of this....just like Saddam has taken advantageof the U.N.

Did, Stalin's, mutual peace agreement with Hitler ever make a difference?

Now i sound like a philosopher huh?

Would you speakout against a dictator like Saddam if you lived under his regeim?

[nuked rabbit]

otis, with all respect from a NOOB, Would you speak-out against a dictator like Saddam if you lived under his regime?

That would not be a realistic option.

Somehow i have the feeling that if the US continues like they do it/they will suffer from isolation.
Thats the worst thing that could happen to a nation and his people.
Lets hope that Bush wakes-up in time.

[otis]

Thanks Sparth,

i'll look into that thread. But thank god we have the freedom to have theses debate/forums! Too bad the peeps in Iraq don't.

[otis]

Hey nuked Rabit,

what do you mean? What should Bush wake up to?

[otis]

oh, just got it, sorry. The US is NOT alone. It's only France and Germany opposed to regeim change in Iraq.
there are a whole mess of other nations in favor. And as for the protesters, don't be decieved. A couple million protesters don't add up to anything.

Especially when they have no alternative answer to Saddam defying the U.N.

[nuked rabbit]

He should listen to the people of america and the rest of the world.
Me and many others, sharing space on this globe, are not waiting for a war or a clean-up of the world.
It's not because we are 60's hippies smoking pot or Saddam huggers, but we can feel the menace in our daily lifes...24/7, and the effects of it.

What happened on the world scene like 9/11 and many other horrible things are not right and to be accepted.
But trying to repair all this by proposing even a bigger horror like war is not a solution.
So, i can hear you think (if i may) what should we do?
Well if i knew i would not be making shooting-boards but proposing laws and solutions at the white-house (don't take me to serious).
I still hope there is a "political" or "trade" solution to send Saddam away.

Anyway, since i'm new around here i've tried to resume my thinking and opinion.
Bush should not follow his lust for power and not forget about the opinion of the rest of the world.
If he continues like he does i'm afraid, like i wrote before, that america will and shall suffer from isolation.

Sorry for my spelling ;-)

[nuked rabbit]

i'm hijacking this thread, sorry.
To get back on the subject, I love france to.

[otis]

Nuke Rabbit:

Bush's lust for power???? WTF are U talking about?? The U.N has been "writting these laws" and Sanctions for years now on Iraq. And all Saddam does is piss on them!!!!! Every nation in the world has been telling Saddam to disarm. Why only Saddam??? Look at his track record!!! He's a sick ass dictator that " has a lust for power".

Not Bush! How many uselsess laws must we write for him to ignore or defy??????
Force is a last option..and now it's time. We can write sanctions forever, if Saddam knows we wont enfore them what is the POINT?

Why do you people want to see Bush as the problem??? Saddam is the problem!!!!!

[otis]

Nuke, you live in St. Malo France???

[otis]

Yeah Sparth, that forum is a joke: just a bunch of morns bash'n eachother.

[davi]

Eh, watch it otis. Don't point fingers and call names. You may not like the forum but the net is a small world and alot of vistors from here are vistors are there aswell.

[nuked rabbit]

Yep, i agree Saddam is a dictator, and a bad one too.
The jerk has murdered his own people and his neighbors the Kurds.
And Turkey is waiting for a GO to finish it.
Remember Castro and Pigs-bay?

But can you tell me, if the Bush administration puts up a democratic Gov. in Iraq and North-Korea, will he stop?
And telling the world "if you are not supporting me, you are against me!"...well, it's a bit weird.

Do not think i'm a peace loving pacifist, dancing around with flowers in my hair.
I just don't see the use of aggression as a solution.

[jester]

Originally posted by otis
oh, just got it, sorry. The US is NOT alone. It's only France and Germany opposed to regeim change in Iraq.


otis,

I just wanted to lurk on this thread but I fear I can't! It's neither the government nor the people of France and Germany who are opposed to a regime change in Iraq - on the contrary, we want that. BUT not by means of war!

And why, please, does Bush neither say nor prepare anything against the outrageous provocations of Northern Korea as well? This really leads to the conclusion that it's just OIL and MONEY being the true reasons for preparation of this war. And it seems that Bush wants to bring to an end what his father started.

Jester

[nuked rabbit]

Originally posted by otis
Nuke, you live in St. Malo France???

Yes, 50% of my time.
The other 50% i spend in Amsterdam.

[otis]

I love St. Malo! One of my favorite towns I visitewd in France!

[nuked rabbit]

Otis, Cool, did you make a walk on the walls in September? when the waves are really high and jump over the walls?
It's an amazing city and very romantic at night.

[otis]

Davi,
relax
I'm not bashing eatpoo, just that thread, too amny peole attacking eachother in there.

Jester:

I hear what you are say'n about Bush's choice of words. He sounds like Wyatte Earp when he speaks so strongly. A bit rash.

But agression is somtimes the only way to get a dictator's attention/ or out.. We all know that sanctions from the U.N don't make a difference. And enforcingTrade embargos only hurt the innocent people in that nation. So paperwork can only go so far.

Do you all think that these avenues were not explored in the past? Hitler, just used them to buy him time. Hell some countries even gave up their land to appease him.

You guys have to understand that by standing around, hoping that these evil people will go away, or they are not are problems wont work!

I know that not all germans believed in Hitler's party. Many left the country(Einstien) and many stayed (hoping for the best) . But hoping for the best is not a solution. Soon those people were having to send their children off to Hitler's youth camps, and keeping their voice shut in fear.

I agree that a peacfull regeim change would be best. But not all countries can do this like Serbia.

In the end, I believe that we all have the same intentions for Saddam, we just wish it would not come to war.

[Grooveholmes]

I've been having my own personal protests the past few nights by going out and purchasing a good Beaujolais and some of my favorite Brie to go along with it.

__________________
America=Been Had.

[bengal]

jester>> i just agree with you. i've been wondering for weeks now why people can't see bush is avoiding north korea which is a real threat and aiming at iraq just for the purpose of getting nothing else but oil control.

otis>> you talk too much for me, dude.
i read you say above that history always showed that the only way to wipe evil was to fight it. ok, right.
but history also shows that humanity tried after every war to remember how rude a way it is, and that we should learn to avoid this easy solution. hey peep, that's cool to remember history, but that's a greater purpose to learn from it, if you want my opinion.

only my two cents...

holmes>> did the beaujolais taste good? or did it lose its flavor? ;) (joking mate!)

[otis]

Exactly..!!! Learn from it! Doing nothing allows evil to get stronger!

[otis]

sorry I talk too much, I'm sick at home today bored out of my mind.:rolleyes:

[otis]

I respect your opinions..but we already agree we don't want war!

About N.Korea:

Simjung..Lung..what ever his name is, wont ever use a nuke!!!! He is just trying to get our attention by playing the "Nuke Card" in negotiations.

Although democracy is considered evil over there, they will never do anything with their nukes because China, Japan, will not allow it! So already that sitiuation is completely different than a psyhcho dictator in Iraq, who has used these weapons before against his OWN PEOPLE!!!

Nobody has argued against my position. HOW LONG DO WE LET IRAQ defy the international community??? Should we wait for another Sept. 11???
Should we just pull out and let the middle east destroy itself?
It's a small world guys, we can't keep our heads in the sand!!!!

[sparth]

groove: rofl!

me too! i'm having my own personal protests too. i drink a few buds! look at an american movie, listen to a few john williams and michael nyman scores.... perfect.

please peeps, no matter the views, it would be so much better to be able to remain mature and serious. give convincing arguments, and talk about it like adults, or why not laugh about it.
conceptart is not eatpoo (with all the respect i have for both) , and we're not in "the toilets". :D

id' be so interested to ear more stuff like the thoughts mcotie gave us. it's so interesting.
let's put , "patriotism" on mode off....and see what happen

[otis]

sounds good, I'm glad we have these forums and freedom to talk like this...in the end we all are friends, and that is more important than any war or political alignment.

Sparth, where in Paris do you live? I'm really familiar with the Latin quarter by the university. Roue de Muofftarde is may favorite street!!!

[Coma]

I have to agree with Otis on all this...
Many times though people just want something to grab on to and to hate...

Direct logic and looking at it from the view of ignorance (not meant to be insulting) Bush looks like he is just going for Iraq because of oil. It's not the case at all.

The regime in Iraq is very unstable and is run by a man with no regard for his people or humanity in general.
N.korea is not unstable and their leaders are quite peaceful and sane.

The fact is if we go in and try to peacefully bring about a regime change, we would be attacked... So the logical conclusion, although painful and hard. People are going to die. Saddam being one of them.

As far as the anti-this anti-that bs that's going around.
All it is, is people acting on ignorance...

I like france as well, and would some day like to visit.

[sparth]

otis: my folks live in the quartier latin, on a little square nearly in front of notre-dame. i'vee spent 10 years in this area, it is a great place. i still go there evey week to visit them. also, now all the comics shops are in this area too, so there's more than one reason to go there actually.
rue mouffetard is more on the south hill, near the pantheon, it's also a great place.
now i live in the west of paris, in st-cloud. better for kids, fresh air, more trees....

[otis]

where in Paris do you work?
I've always wanted to work in Paris. Speaking of comic books shops, I remmember one right at the corner behind the Pantheon before you hit Rue de Mouffetarde, you familiar with that one?
I used to spand many hours sketching around Paris, infact that's how i made all my friends there. The artists by Notre Dame were a good group of guys. Althought they didn't speak much english, we still could have a good time sketching together and making money off all the tourists!

The cafe owners all knew eachother, and if you were friends with one, you were friends with all of them!

[sparth]

the US are not going to attack irak for the oil. but for a number of other reasons that may be considered good or bad. you'll decide. true, oil is one of the keys in order to understand what is happening, but it's not the main key.

in the sixties, oil became the major factor of the middle east. arabic countries, who since the beginning of the century were frustrated by poverty and economic disasters, suddenly saw a huge amount of money come into their hands. and it became clear that the whole situation was going to degenerate even more, and it did. today, it has not changed much: the situation is always dramatic for most of these states who suffer from pressures because of their oil. arabic instability is not a myth, it directly comes from an occidental destabilisation. saddam hussein is the product of this previous instability, and we should not be suprised to see him here, acting like he does. however it remains prefectly clear that in a way or another, he must be removed.

because of the cold war, there were two general types of countries in the fifties and sixties, in the arabic world. you first had the nationalist laic states like egypt (run by nasser), who were convinced that the economic prosperity would come by accepting a rapid industrial conversion. the marxist ideas had a very large impact on the arabic nationalist states, who also were quite connected to russia. saddam is the last pillar standing from this old times, during which people were sure that the arabic nationalism was going to give them prosperity.
on the other side, you had the "right" wing conservative countries, supported by the states. these countries were most of the time against the nationalist states, because of their laic anti-religious attitude. they supported themselves a very fundamentalist position.

now, there are a bunch of factors that have complicated the whole thing. first of all, the frustration growing in the middle east. you must absolutely realise that even though oil may have given prosperity to a small number of saudi families, the major part of the population from algeria to syria has not received much from oil money, and remained as poor as before oil appeared in the 40s. the frustration has become immense mainly because we occidentals have never been able to give to these people an economic stability and a decent way of life. occidentals must realise that the arabic states, because of this eternal frustration of not being able to receive any attention from the west, is now going backwards, looking at its past as a lost and forgotten "grandeur" . in a way, it has become a regressive society, which refuses to see the future. the product of this situation: bin laden, and his fundamentalist theories. frustration towards the industrialized world that has rejected them, is the only way to understand how a guy like bin laden, who perfectly knew americans as well as the west, decided to bring back this holy war, support the talebans, organise terrorist camps in afghanistan, and finally, bring war on the us soil by destroying a part of the economic heart of the usa.
but don't get it wrong: if so many countries in europe and the world are reluctant to go to war against saddam, it's because of this same factor. a large amount of people are scared to see other bin ladens rise here and there. iran will never accept to see the us invade irak, we do not know how they can react. it can be deadly. same for syria, in which el assad and its family were supporting terrorism not long ago. in saudi arabia, the royal family is in a very difficult position, because of the islamic extremists which are absolutely anti-american.

the second factor is israel. israel deserves the right to exist, and the ties between both countries are very big. however, because of this massive israelian support, arabic countries are now convinced that the us have definitely chosen their side. but that's another story....

see the complexity of such a war, it could have exactly the opposite effect than the one bush really wants. arabics are slowly joining the extremist side, a large part of the maghreb population is now convinced that the only way to remove the dramatic mess from arabic countries would be to definitely reject any sort of occidental concepts, and way of life. the islamic law is being reintroduced in some areas, especially in african muslim countries as a reaction to this occidental general attitude, which is definitely seen as an agression against the integrity of islam.
unlike the usa, europe is close from the maghreb. and arabic minorities are spread in london, paris, berlin... aparts from the economic interests from each country, i guess it's also one of the reasons why peeps are worried.

the main reasons why the us want to remove the actual dictatorship in bagdad :
- give stability to the middle east.
- give stability to israel by removing the iraki threat.
- gain power in the area in order to, later on, secure oil, as it will become an even greater major economic factor in years to come.
-depend less on saudi oil. looking towards irak is a way to solve the problem.
- put the pressure on the iran republic and its terrorist ties.

why did the US did not go to bagdad in 91?:
- because the un nations had not voted any resolution in order to do so
-because the US were a bit worried to see the iran republic become too powerful because of a very weak destabilized neighbor.
- because after the fall of saddam, the US were worried to see the kurds gaining power, which was a factor that did not pleased turkey at all. turkey, a US allie, is against the raise of the kurds. as it could threaten east turkey, and it kurd population.

here's my little blabla. i'm not for this war, but i can perfectly understand america has to defend its interest in the world.
also, i don't really have any solution too. this damn thing is so complex!

darn!!!! the bot of the day will be delayed!! lol
sorry for this.

[sparth]

otis: nope, i don't know that one. but there are so many of em now!
hehe yea, so many peeps drawing and sketching tourists. i remember a friend of mine, who used to make a lot of money this way.

i work in the second arr. not far from chatelet.

[otis]

whew! You definatley did your homework!
Time will only tell what the future holds for the middle east.

[ODIN SIX]

WOW !!! Lots of deep feeling here .........

Like most I want the world to live in peace.......

I think bush has the right Idea,, but is going about it the
wrong way... Me, I am still under contract til 2004,,, I still
waiting for them to call me up to go to the Desert.... Like I
haven't already been to enough Deserts.. I've never been to
France, but I got the chance to meet French Troopers when I
was in Bosina,, They were pretty cool,, as were the other
contries that were there. We trades smokes, boots, patches
and stuff like that... I do want to go to France some day...

[gekitsu]

good posts in here.

let me drop my opinion about this here, too.
i personally don't want a war by any means but everyone making politics has to be aware that no one can null the chance of a war happening somewhere.
war is a sad thing but often, it is the important last step there is to go.
imagine what if the US didn't intervene in ww2.
no one here WANTS war, i guess. a lot of people see a risk in saddam and would rather see a different regime in irak. i don't know why it has to be now and what incident it was to fire bush up like this but now that the thing started, it should also come to an end sometimes. one of the options to end it is war, there also are peaceful solutions (questionable how much they are of use against a dictator like saddam).
anyway... if bush saw a way to end the story without letting US citizens go to war, he would choose it, as every government would do.

what i find truly negative about the part germany plays:
we had elections when the thing began to get into movement. one of the two large opposing parties said that if people elect him, germany won't participate in the irak war. he said that when no one asked him, when german participation was never point of debate... the way he did his job the four years before told ME that he said that for the sake of votes and nothing else. THAT i find is the wrong way to handle a thing of importance.
not enough, now that he is elected for the next four years, he starts baching the other party for being "war-crazed". in fact, the other partie's members stated that war is the last step that is to do when necessary (maybe even as necessary as the US participation in ww2).

anyway... we should not let saddam blend us by seeming to cooperate and destroy some of his rockets. he won't have use of rockets with extended reach in a war on his own ground...
hitler wanted to cooperate with the western world against russia, too, just to catch them flat-footed afterwards.

history will repeat as long as people don't learn it.

[Tedsuo]

Wow Sparth, you pretty much summed up my own opinion of the situation. The US desire to move away from it's dependence on Saudi Arabia is a less talked about but important motivation in this whole thing.


I personally am not for the invasion of Iraq. The short term effects of fighting an opponent whose military is so entrenched within it's own civillian population centers will be a huge amount of collateral damage and loss of life. It will be a big difference from the Gulf War, much of which took place away from civillian populations. Also, I fear the long term effects will be ultimately non-helpful. Iraqi Opposition groups in the ninties (mostly Kurdish factions in the north) ultimately self destructed due to in-fighting and bloodshed with their own groups. I doubt this will change, even with a US led international effort to restructure the counrty after the war. I fear many of the groups flocking to the anti-Saddam banner will simply flock to the anti-US banner when they learn they will not be controling the country personally.


That being said, I also feel the only reasons headway is being made with Iraq's compliance to weapons inspections is due to the imminent threat of war from the US and Britain. If this threat were removed, I doubt any compliance would continue for long.


BAH! The world is so complicated... I'm going to go paint with this wonderful FRENCH brush I bought today (an Isabey Petit Gris, I believe).


BTW, if anyone would like to further their undersanding of the current situation in Iraq, I reccomend brushing up on the history of the region. Here is a timeline created by Harvard's Iraqi Research and Documentation Project:

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/ref/ref03.html


Unfortunately the section on the Iran-Iraq war is still under construction, but I advise everyone to read up on the Gulf Crisis and onwards.

Sorry for the long post! Thanks for reading it.

[Immortal Jacko]

Sadly yeah, Saddam is nuts though, giving Kuwait citezen's Acid Baths and all that fun torture. Most of the people who wanna rush right into war have never been in combat. God bless our soldiers and all those would will be in harms way. I hope my father doesn't go back again this time, but they need experience.

[JoshuaTheJames]

http://members.fortunecity.com/wowbobs/spiderfruit.gif

[JoshuaTheJames]

btw sparth...

thats good reading...thanks for the posts...

-Joshua

[Tedsuo]

His Spidey-Sense isn't all that's tingling...

[Lono]

it really bothers me when people "especially our president" toss around words like "Evil" when trying to get the mob modivated for war. what are we? the fucking crusaders?!?
ill go get my cod piece...
i think the word "evil" is pretty damn subjective.
i know for a fact that there are a WHOLE lot of people out there that believe with all of there heart that america is the unholy heart of darkness,, and you know what,, thats the same pitch they use to modivate there people to fly planes into our buildings. its not that simple. its actually a very complicated human struggle that has been going on for hundreds of years. evil is a modivational word.
this war deserves more respect and a gentler tongue than that in my opinion.
also,, if our devine mission is to stamp out evil, then there are a whole lot of other oppressed and impoverished countries that weve been ignoring for years that were gonna need to get cracking on.

i dont personally have any answers to this war.. and honestly i dont believe any of us here could really obtain enough of the knowladge, information and perspective as to whats going on behind the curtian to form any sort of aplickable "answer" to all of this mess. were all just stumling around in the dark, and its the bed weve made, so its no ones fault but our own.

street protest is almost pointless.
viet nam was hugely protested throughout the entire war. made very little difference.

heres a great american tale for everyone.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/03/04/iraq.usa.shirt.reut/index.html

sorry for the rant. im very pleased by the adult maner by which this thread has been handled. you guys all impress me.

-LOno

[JoshuaTheJames]

dude seriously... I agree about your first line...

the word "Evil" is super-propaganda.

Its a word that should not be used lightly. You and I now the type of people he is aiming to reach by using such a word. Just be happy you are more intelligent than that.

"MMMmm nnow thats good satire!"

-Joshua