Why Can't I Draw Well? [Archive] - ConceptArt.org Forums

NobodyYouWouldKnow

January 22nd, 2005, 09:08 PM

EDIT: feeb I will lock this thread if you continue to present yourself in the same ridiculous manner that you did in your last one. Message me again with contempt, and I'll see that you're banned as well. I don't care if you "need it" or not.

http://img63.exs.cx/img63/2417/bestofoldstuff3wi.jpg

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January 13, 2005 Total Time: 26 minutes

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January 14, 2005 Total Time: 24 minutes

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January 15, 2005 Total Time: 18 minutes

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January 16, 2005 Total Time: 10 minutes

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January 17, 2005 Total Time: 13 minutes

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January 18, 2005 Total Time: 10 minutes

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January 19, 2005 Total Time: 14 minutes

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January 20, 2005 Total Time: 18 minutes

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January 21, 2005 Total Time: 13 minutes

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January 22, 2005 Total Time: 11 minutes

Thread Total Copy Time: 2 hours & 37 minutes

NobodyYouWouldKnow

January 23rd, 2005, 01:11 PM

http://img195.exs.cx/img195/8551/012305no017qv.gif

January 23, 2005 Total Time: 2 minutes

Thread Total Copy Time: 2 hours & 39 minutes

HEROIC

January 23rd, 2005, 07:37 PM

Ok dude,, i see your hard work for drawing.
I'll better tell u just one thing:

First of all if u dont want your Thread to be Banned, just post your works.
And, like say, C&C plz.

** Draw whatever u've got in your room, like your stuff, pencils, pencill case,, your table, then , get an anatomy book as soon as possible from library and try to draw some of it. but dont just get any anatomy book, get those who are connected to art, search for Art Anatomy.
AND WORK ON THE LINES< u've got to learn who to use different types of lines.
Do a warm up before you drawing,, practise different lines: like,, an example i've got from a good member Dogfood:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/ARIASP/dogfood-lines.jpg

I see your hard working for drawing, so i wont give up on u,, i'll be with you, where , here or any where, to see your prograss and do whatever i can do. because i was a beginner too.

Um, about banning: dear Moderator, mr. feeb. Plz dont ban this thread, just let me post his stuff, hes not gonna say anything, as he said. Till now, he didnt do anything wrong!! :er:

NobodyYouWouldKnow

January 24th, 2005, 04:21 PM

http://img192.exs.cx/img192/8872/012405no013xx.gif

January 24, 2005 Total Time: 1 minute

Thread Total Copy Time: 2 hours & 40 minutes

IanE

January 24th, 2005, 04:40 PM

Ok, dude.

Try these two. Don't think about an exucse or a comment, the second after you're done reading this post, try this.

Fill an entire sheet with straight lines going across the page. Straight one. Then do the same with circles, squares, ellipses, and so on. You've got to control your lines, man.

Second thing: I think the reason as to why you haven't progressed is becuase when you put a time limit on your drawings, you stress out and can't concentatre, resulting in that 1 minute scribble above.

Don't set limits or boundries, man. Art has no limits and boundaries so don't give yourself them! Take 5 hours to draw a hand if you have to.

Long story short, control your lines and don't use a time limit anymore.

This is where you turn off your PC and draw.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

January 25th, 2005, 01:45 AM

http://img197.exs.cx/img197/315/012505no014rp.gif

January 25, 2005 Total Time: 1 minute

Thread Total Copy Time: 2 hours & 41 minutes

NobodyYouWouldKnow

January 26th, 2005, 05:10 PM

http://img173.exs.cx/img173/6782/012605no011ty.gif

January 26, 2005 Total Time: 2 minutes

Thread Total Copy Time: 2 hours & 43 minutes

-sideshowbob-

January 26th, 2005, 05:34 PM

do more linework practice ! its important !

anyways i like the dynamic look of this one.. really strong O_o
<3

pay some more attention to ur lines .. its because ur hand.. its movement has to be like the flow of water.. gentle and soft

draw more /m\

ps : take a look at the pic heroic posted.. !

NightVision

January 26th, 2005, 05:52 PM

The one from jan 25 I can't really recognize, some cloth maybe (that would explain why I don't recognize) ? The others you seem to get down pretty accurate for the time spent on it.

The foot is quite good, but it's missing the outer ankle bump, you should put that one in.

You scribbled all over the bodybuilder cause you didn't like it ? Better to start over again, or if it's pencil, to erase the lines so you can still lightly see them, and use them as a guide to do better next try, use the 'wrong' lines to decide whether you need to change the angle, make it bigger/smaller, ... that way half the work was done already and the redraw will be easier.

Next time, after you are done drawing, take a break and come back to it, and just take a good look at your drawing ... just as is, and also compared with your reference. Try to see where you went wrong, and touch up here and there (lopsided head on you first mannikin for instance).

Improving your skill is for a very big part recognizing your errors, so put some time into that, and you'll improve faster.

Keep posting !

Oh yeah, I don't want you to be kicked off, so don't reply to my questions, they were rethorical ... but I think you can put some more info in there if you think it'll help us crit (like subject, photo used as reference, method used, ...)

NobodyYouWouldKnow

January 27th, 2005, 04:47 PM

http://img140.exs.cx/img140/9334/012705no010bp.gif

January 27, 2005 Total Time: 1 minute

Thread Total Copy Time: 2 hours & 44 minutes

hurricane

January 27th, 2005, 04:51 PM

progress, good !

last one shows steady yet fast lines...keep on thinking !

cheers

NobodyYouWouldKnow

January 29th, 2005, 02:41 PM

http://img188.exs.cx/img188/8180/012805no011qk.gif

January 28, 2005 Total Time: 1 minute

Thread Total Copy Time: 2 hours & 45 minutes

HEROIC

January 29th, 2005, 03:26 PM

ok buddy look:

*** before doing anything, get a piece of paper, and try to draw staright lines, as many as u can, then curves, then circles.(i usually do this before drawing)******

FIrst:

Draw very simple, very very simple:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/ARIASP/my%20Sketches/Jan29----HAND.jpg

Second:

Show the seperation of fingers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/ARIASP/my%20Sketches/Jan29----HAND1.jpg

Third:

Give details to each phalanx, , see carefully ,, some phalanxes are big some small.

Put some shadow to the places that gets the most shadow,
My lighting came from right, so the shadow looks like this, urs maybe differ.

Just DO IT

DRAW IT!!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/ARIASP/my%20Sketches/Jan29----HAND2.jpg

AND HAV FUN WITH YOUR WORK,,, BE RELAX

my drawing took 3 minutes,, But plz ,, dont u even look and care about the time.. take your time, and have fun with it! ;)

I know my hand drawing doesnt looks good,, i started drawing recently,, so plz get easy on me!! hehe :dur:

Peace out, :)

ALi

NobodyYouWouldKnow

January 29th, 2005, 07:54 PM

http://img132.exs.cx/img132/2337/012905no019rp.gif

January 29, 2005 Total Time: 1 minute

Thread Total Copy Time: 2 hours & 46 minutes

HEROIC

January 29th, 2005, 08:27 PM

redo that,
this time, take 15 minutes.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

January 30th, 2005, 08:25 PM

http://img164.exs.cx/img164/310/013005no016dj.gif

January 30, 2005 Total Time: 15 minutes

Thread Total Copy Time: 3 hours & 1 minute

cotron

January 30th, 2005, 08:29 PM

The thing that you need to improve is the amount of time you spend on your stuff... you'll never get past this point if your don't learn how to sit down for an hour or two and let go. 2 minutes?? What do you expect? It takes more time than that to brush your teeth. 15 minutes is usually warmup time for me, and it's usually the most frustrating... if that's the only time you spend doing work, of course it's frustrating, you're not getting into the "zone" of creating artwork. Good luck, and build your patience.

HEROIC

January 30th, 2005, 09:09 PM

good progress man.:)

Ok, u've got to work on your lines, if u want to continue like this, u cant get a good shape in your drawings.

ok, look, take a piece of paper, draw straight lines, STRAIGHT lines. then do some curve. then some circles. FOr 15 minutes.

Imagine youself, that when u are drawing these lines, u want to represent them as the most important parts of the drawing, Think that if u dont have good lines, u cant continue to next step. U move your hand too much on the paper, try to be relaxed. Just forget everything u have in mind.

ANd do it.:uzi2:

If u do this steps correctly and improve your lines. I'll swear more people will come here and reply to u, and help u in other stuff. :^^:

NobodyYouWouldKnow

January 31st, 2005, 07:21 PM

http://img183.exs.cx/img183/8949/013105no010sv.gif

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January 31, 2005 Total Time: 30 minutes

Thread Total Copy Time: 3 hours & 1 minute

HEROIC

January 31st, 2005, 08:24 PM

hey man,

i'll see u working hard again to get something done correct and good.

Ok, first of all, u got better in drawing the lines. Do a 15 minutes line practicing every day, u should continue till u become an artist, Its a warm up. most of people do it. Ur doing good, ur just losing time, dont wait, and waste your time, draw, draw draw, draw everything u see ;). From your pencil to your parents.

U are really Impatient man, trust your self. Continue this drawing for at least 2 month, if u dont see any improvements, and u are not satisfied, then forget about it.

Seriously, u are pushing ur self too much.
U've got to decide:

1) learn drawing no matter what
2) do sth else you are interested(why? because ur talent is in sth eles, but its hidden, u've got to find it)

This is the best advice me or anybody else can give u. :)

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 1st, 2005, 10:43 AM

>:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{ >:{

-sideshowbob-

February 1st, 2005, 10:55 AM

use your brain.. and think about the ideads we give you !

the best thing u can do ?!
->
its the best because u need more and more experience
<-

so.. we all are no miracle kids just when we born..
its a process.. du u know what a process is ?

its like.. when u got water.. it can become rain.. between water and rain u got the process...

these linework studies are good.. do more of them !

before u can draw realistic .. i think u need to draw.. more then 3 years minmum.. 3 years.. thats a long time drawing... but it bringes all neccessary informations and experiences u need to improve.. u dont get any improvement when u stop drawing.. u cant.. when u think.. or when u hate drawing.. all these things keep u away from drawing and from improvement

do draw ur lines that long.. draw them smaler... to train ur hand.. must be a fluid movement from ur hands wrist.. not shoulder or arm joint.. just wrist

draw another 100 heads.. they may all look shitt.. but the 101 wont.. or the 1001.. u cant tell how many heads u need to improve.. but u have to draw to experience it... ur waiting for improvement but it cant find u when u are not drawing

drawing means improvement

ur hand studies are really good ! :D

keep drawing !
do some more linework studies !

http://www.sketchbooksessions.com/thedrawingboard/viewtopic.php?t=21215

i know i cant draw realistic..i dont have to try.. thats why i try to study as hard as i can.. which means drawing more then 4h a day... 8h+ or 16h+ drawing at weekends...i dont know when i improve.... idont really care because i know that i will improve when i just keep drawing.. drawing drawing.. .. patient !

dont get mad when u dont improve.. u should draw more then instead of getting mad or frustrated or anything.. JUST KEEP DRAWING

NightVision

February 1st, 2005, 10:59 AM

that portrait is fine for someone who hasn't
a) studied the face yet and/or
b) copied it a LOT of times

I did an overdraw:
http://users.pandora.be/Decryptor/imgs/sketchbook/NYWK01022005.jpg

the mistake in your perspective is quite obvious (the paralles lines don't end in a point on the horizon), see arrow.
see here (http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/perspective/horizon.html)
fig 5 is right
fig 6 is wrong (same mistake as in your drawing).
Here's the whole tutorial (http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/perspective/index.html)

I use loomis method for constructing a head, see the book 'head and hands' for a more step by step explanation.
Major flaws are:
* not enough 'back' to the head
* placement of the nose
* size of the lips

There are also a bunch of good things in your portrait, the form of the face (you seem to remember some landmarks), even though a bit wide ... the collar (you went around the neck,which makes it more 3D), the form of the nose, ....

Seriously, put in some study, it's way easier to draw smt when you know the rules (you can break them later) then to just draw 'on sight' by trial and error.

I think it'd be good for you to start with perspective ... get out your ruler (freehand is for later) and draw some boxes in one and 2 point perspective, then, if you want, move on to a house or another more advanced structure. It's ok to make mistakes, as long as you put the effort in not to make them.
Do the best you can !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 1st, 2005, 05:02 PM

http://img55.exs.cx/img55/3011/020105no010us.gif

February 01, 2005 Total Time: 48 minutes

Thread Total Copy Time: 3 hours & 49 minutes

BenB

February 1st, 2005, 06:00 PM

When warming up and drawing straight lines, do them fast so they are straight and not jagged. I've seen you draw straight/clean lines with some decent value..why hasn't that appeared here? It just seems effort is made to not do that.

Form

February 1st, 2005, 06:23 PM

DUDE!! that is so good!!

that shows a lot more deication, you should feel proud!! - you spent 48 minutes on it?? GREAT!! it shows!!!

Will you improve if you draw it everyday? Perhaps not JUST that face - because then youll only know how to draw that face and that face alone!!

But id suggest to you to draw similar things - perhaps faces from different angles if your source has them??? Is this from loomis? or do you have a scanner?

Try and get an image of your reference material and open that and this drawing in photoshop. Resize whichever is larger so theyr both the same size, set the top layer to 50% opacity- and it will show through. Compare the reference materialto your drawing. Where did you go wrong? Leave this open, and draw it again - noticing which lines you need to take more care with. Repeat this process as many times as you can until it looks as close as possible to your source material. Try to do it in one session, not over spread out days.

Im really proud of you for this latest one.

Keep going. Im seeing improvement, whether you are or not.

if you use messenger software i think you should talk to me 1:1 since you cant talk on here for some reason, i will be glad to sit with you while your doing a piece and answer any questions etc. Id like to see you happy with your own art!!

MSN: form_n_focus@hotmail.com
AOL: form n focus

or, you can email me at the email above. KEEP IT UP!!

BenB

February 1st, 2005, 06:34 PM

I agree it is much better. Keep it up!

HEROIC

February 1st, 2005, 08:06 PM

HEY,, good work man, ur improving.

COntinue with long time drawings.

i looked at your drawing over and over again, i see so much improvments, ,, u think im lieing, look here:

Ur lines are getting better and better.

U are concentrating on your work very well, u draw every line, just one time, u didnt redraw or earase(it seems u didnt use earaser at al).

The head block is pretty close to the standard.

ur lighting is very good,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/ARIASP/1223.bmp
and best of all, u are much more confident than before.

If u start copying Loomies and bridgman's studies everyday, u will improve, after a couple month, u'll be using your own imagination, and u wil start to draw neatly, and highly standard.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 2nd, 2005, 03:01 PM

http://img105.exs.cx/img105/9283/020205no014xa.jpg

February 02, 2005 Total Time: 49 minutes

Thread Total Copy Time: 4 hours & 38 minutes

HEROIC

February 2nd, 2005, 04:50 PM

NobodyYouWouldKnow- hey, thats good, draw , draw , draw.

One little advise, ur missed some steps. U didnt learn the human block, the anatomy, prspective studies yet. if u finish these steps. I can promise, u can do portraits from imagination.

U've got to push yourself much more, u've got to draw the blocks, and easy manequines. when u do them,, u'll learn some of the human block, and then, u can use your imagination for some movements.

If u dont draw really good human blocks, u cant go to next steps, eventhough u do te next steps, u cant undrestand., u cant get your lines very good.
Think, u've got some informations in your head about drawing, but u've got to start from 0 to become a good artist. TO BUILD your life and feelings on the paper u've got to draw alot. U've got to forget about lazyness and depressing moments.

Think u are in a blank area, and u've got to fill it no matter what.
Think if u fill the blank area, u'll find another blank area, but this time, u know how to fill it faster, and better than last time. :)

Nice proress, i like the hair.
keep it up,, and remember, try to do more drawings instead of doing 1 drwaing and give so many details to it.

ANALYSE YOUR DRAWINGS, BY READING PROPORTIONS, AND ANATOMY.

:wink:

Form

February 2nd, 2005, 05:16 PM

Well done man. Well done. You completed that task with utmost proficiency!!! Haha. Hit me up on msn when u get the chance and we'll continue.

Dished

February 2nd, 2005, 09:38 PM

Cool stuff dude!! Keep it up! Youve got the determination ;)

I know you might have heard this before,but dont limit yourself. Its art, why limit yourself? why hold back? take your time,let your stuff flow. Ive also noticed you do SO many studies, and I think that is great and awesome! However, as ive once been told, do your studies,learn the things,then after, take what youve learned and incorporate it with your imagination and fun. For example, study the arm, the mucles,the bones, then do sketches of whatever you want while incorporating what youve learned. Dont try to study the whole thing in a short period of time though, break it down to peices.

I dunno if this will help you or not,but this thing has always help me when i was frustrated cause i didnt think i was improving. Improving is like running The Mile, you dont feel faster, until youve seen your time and noticed the changes. Try every month, looking back to the first drawing of that month, to the last one you did at the end. Im sure you'll find some improvement. Try being optimistic about it as well. If you keep thinking youre not gonna improve, you wont.

I hope this helps! Keep it up man! :^^:

Sinix

February 2nd, 2005, 10:07 PM

Stop timing yourself. It should be irrelevant to both us and you. The time you spend on something doesn't matter, just draw.

Form

February 3rd, 2005, 12:29 AM

sinix: the time is very much relevant for this artist. please realise were trying to LENGTHEN the time and care taken with each piece. I know its a CA catchphrase to say dont worry about how long it takes you, just do it, but in this case it doesnt apply.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 3rd, 2005, 08:55 PM

Copy:
http://img224.exs.cx/img224/414/020305no012eb.jpg

Memory:
http://img224.exs.cx/img224/2289/020305no020of.jpg

Fixed:
http://img224.exs.cx/img224/8784/020305no038qb.jpg

February 03, 2005 Total Time: 24 minutes

Thread Total Time: 5 hours & 32 minutes

HEROIC

February 3rd, 2005, 09:14 PM

Excelent move man.

Your lines are getting better, ur drwaings getting better.
Ur hand start to move easilly and freely on the paper, and thats very good.
try to get the control of your shading. DO it carefully, use pencils like 4H or 2H

Keep up the good work, post more.
I see great improvments, Just continue, push your self more.

AMir, :^^:

Form

February 4th, 2005, 12:52 AM

great man!! excellent work!!

just so everyone knows - what i asked cameron to do was to draw an apple from life, then go away and try and draw the apple totally from memory, and then finally to go back with the apple and his two drawings and make a 'fixed' version.

Well cameron, i know how hard memory drawing can be when your starting out, and you did a great job. you got most of the major shapes right, it really is a good try.

try doing these every so often, while your working thru loomis etc, it will do you good and help your non-referenced drawing skills.

try when your drawing to layer with your pencil. instead of pressing really hard to get a dark area, press lightly but go over the same spot until its the right darkness. The effect is that you get smoother shading with the same actual darkness (value). and it looks a lot nicer.

keep up the good work pal speak to you soon.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 4th, 2005, 09:11 PM

http://img214.exs.cx/img214/4082/020405no018lk.jpg

February 04, 2005 Total Time: 32 minutes

Thread Total Time: 6 hours & 4 minutes

Dished

February 4th, 2005, 11:01 PM

AWesome dude! keep it up!
Try using geometric shapes to start drawings out. Lets say youre drawing a can. Draw the cylinder,then, apply the details and the rest of the forms later on. Just so you have an outline of the can, and its easier to see mistakes earlier on.

Keep going man! youre getting there!

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 5th, 2005, 09:52 PM

Copy:
http://img123.exs.cx/img123/1746/020505no013bh.jpg

Memory:
http://img123.exs.cx/img123/6809/020505no027js.jpg

February 05, 2005 Total Time: 29 minutes

Thread Total Time: 6 hours & 33 minutes

TASart

February 5th, 2005, 10:41 PM

http://img173.exs.cx/img173/6782/012605no011ty.gif

January 26, 2005 Total Time: 2 minutes

Thread Total Copy Time: 2 hours & 43 minutes

I really love this one.., I like how loose your going with all this

startraveller

February 6th, 2005, 04:04 AM

You're getting some real confidence in your lines... Your last couple of posts really show that. Awesome, dude!

PHATandy

February 6th, 2005, 04:20 AM

Ive seen various posts of yours and stuff before but i was never convinced about wat ure doing, i thought u werent gonna go anywhere with ure attitude but now ive changed. There defintly is some improvement and you should defintly keep it up, ure doing well:

http://img63.exs.cx/img63/7165/011305no033tp.gif

http://img123.exs.cx/img123/1746/020505no013bh.jpg

HEROIC

February 6th, 2005, 07:18 AM

Hey dude, can u see improvements now? Isnt it awsome?

Its great. Practise more, its good u redo some stuff again. Now draw some more stuff from manequines. DId u remember i told u the pages for loomies?? start drawing. But before. Again, practise da lines, an object in the same way FOrm told u---> copy, Imaginations, MIX.

Im thinking of maybe u like the Bridgman studies more than loomies, well, i Like bridgmn studies more.Its jsut great, but some people like loomies, its up to u. Get some books of bridgman(Life Drawing). ANd compare it.

Start your day by drwaing. Draw as many as u can, dont try to put the shadings, ur gonna have time for doing that. i see alot of improvements, dont try to make your self tired of it.

U are more confident.More inspiration on your works.

Thats very good man. Post more.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/ARIASP/1-2.gif ---> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/ARIASP/1-1.jpg

This is jsut excelent, the Lines are great, the shading is excelent. U copied the right thing(i think), the block is right,great. good work man.

AMir,

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 6th, 2005, 09:12 PM

http://img219.exs.cx/img219/6676/020605no010uy.gif

February 06, 2005 Total Time: 15 minutes

Thread Total Time: 6 hours & 48 minutes

NightVision

February 7th, 2005, 03:06 PM

What did you learn from this last drawing ?

Be honest with your answer.

Even if it is 'nothing'.

This is a nice enough copy, but I hardly think that was the purpose of the book.

Don't copy !
analyze !
learn !
copy with a purpose !

I can tell you did not learn that
* a idealized figure could be 8 heads tall (you did not draw 8 head indications, you didn't even draw the whole figure !)
that means you failed at the first step ... now how would you learn the next steps if that one isn't right ? You have to build, and each step must be right before the next can be right.

Right now, you have to LEARN HOW TO LEARN, put all your effort in that.

The apple, was a huge step in the right direction. Which you may or may not realize. Here you went back to your old habits ... don't worry, that happens to a lot of artists, and it'll happen more often to you too. The trick is not to not make mistakes, but to recognize them (faster) and correct them.

Now it's up to you to THINK about the best approach to learn from the exercises you're doing. Each exercise presents a new problem, put all your effort into tackling this one, and you'll be rewarded when you tackle the next one.

I'll give you a hint for this exercise ... there's some learning by heart involved ... after you do it right, you should be able to say out loud: the idealized male figure of 8 heads tall has it's divisions: 1: head; 2: niples; 3: ... and so on. For the female the differences are ...
Width for both sexes measured in heads are:
width for certain landmarks are ... and 'these' differ for the back & front view like this ... and for both sexes like that ... .

Go back to the text when you forgot some of those, draw diagrams (like the one you copied) to help you memorize. Draw the diagram again without your example, see what you remember ... go back to the text & example and fill in the gaps (wait a minute, could that be the apple exercise ;) ).

Go on, redraw that pic.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 7th, 2005, 07:11 PM

http://img82.exs.cx/img82/461/020705no017yy.gif http://img82.exs.cx/img82/3652/020705no020gs.gif

http://img82.exs.cx/img82/192/020705no036wj.gif http://img82.exs.cx/img82/5480/020705no045yw.gif

http://img82.exs.cx/img82/4493/020705no053na.gif http://img82.exs.cx/img82/7707/020705no065zo.gif

February 07, 2005 Total Time: 42 minutes

Thread Total Time: 7 hours & 30 minutes

HEROIC

February 7th, 2005, 08:51 PM

Hey man,

As i told u before and NightVision told u, u are not learning anything by this.

U've got to analyse your drawings man. Uve got to undrestand the head.
As i said before, ure making ur self tired, and u dont knoe it.

Look,, why when u dont undrestand the head muscles, and most important the SKULL, draw a head, and very complicated, with lots of lines that u cant undrestand. When u draw, u've got to do it in a way that looks 3D.

ok, ok, i think i told u this before, but i'll say it again:

get some books, well there are 3 different good authors: George Bridgman, Andrew loomies, Burne hogarth . Im using loomies prespective and mauequines and some oter stuff, hogarth's head studies seems to be great, i'll go with that, and i like bridgman the most, the studies are awsome, the figures, the styles are jsut awsome.
U've got to look at each and think which one seems handier to u, which one u like the most, there are no difference, they are all great, same concepts at the end, but different ways. go to library and look for theri books, and even go and search for other artsit too that teach How to draw human figures, or drwaing basis, or fundementals.

when u decided to get which one u can book em from library, or even buy em, from amazon, book stores, or whenever.

Drawing Human HEAD (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0823013766/qid=1107828857/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-0962723-3784639) Bridgman's Complete Guide to Drawing from Life (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0517255464/qid=1107828956/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0962723-3784639?v=glance&s=books) Constructive Anatomy (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486211045/qid=1107829010/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-0962723-3784639) Heads, Features and Faces (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486227081/qid=1107829010/sr=2-2/ref=pd_ka_b_2_2/103-0962723-3784639) The Book of a Hundred Hands (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/048622709X/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/103-0962723-3784639?v=glance&s=books)

Ask other members, ask others,, ask those who passed this step. People will want to help. But u've got to say "give me hand plz", they wont jsut say "get my hand"

Whatever u did before is passed now, u lost the past, that okay,, i lost so many things too, forget it, its life, it was bad,, well, try to make a new fresh one. WORK hard.

At the end, i see from your last post your getting pretty good at the memory thingy. Thats good, but again ur doing it at the wrong way. When u dont know what those lines stands for why ur poting em, why ur copying a thing u cant undrestand. So simple, but undrestand, wanna do hard , thats okay,, but learn whatch u doing from it.:)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/ARIASP/EDIT-NO.bmp

How to learn,, learn the antomy, learn the musles, learn hows does ur body work, what are these musles for. LEARN it. U dont know how to do it. Thats okay, i didnt know too. AKS SOMEONE. get help.

Keep drawing man. Keep it up. :^^:

Peace out,
AMir,

NightVision

February 7th, 2005, 10:21 PM

I'm also wondering if you're getting it ... here's an exercise for you, you don't even have to draw for this one :) .

Look at the example ... does it look 3D ? Can you see the planes ? Can you see how they angle, how some come towards you and some go away from you ? I bet you can, because I can do that even from your copies (I assume the example looks even more 3D).

Look at your pics from memory. You got the big shapes down pretty good, it looks like a face, so good work on that. But at several places, even though the lines resemble the example (or your copy), they do not form the same 3D image ... planes have different forms and angles. Some important structures are missing, like the cheekbones. If you had a good 3D image of this in your head, you would have gotten those down, even if not completely right (I can understand you wouldn't remember all details, but you should remember the big (as in 'general') forms).

If you would have remembered you needed to draw cheekbones, but didn't know how, you (if you were me) would have gotten so annoyed for not remembering, that you would have taken another, better look at your example and done a new drawing, to get it right and to remember both 1) what a cheekbone looks like and 2) how to properly project that 3D structure on your 2D paper (in other words, how to draw it). At that point, you would have learned smt substantial you did not know before !

Also the symmetry is off, learn how to draw the 'ball & plane (loomis, head & hands, page 21), so you can easily correct this.

I'm with Amir, these heads are very detailed, and contain way too much information for anyone to memorize in a acceptable timeframe. Start with simpler stuff, and work your way up once you got that down.
For the human body, spend a lot of time with pages 38-39 of 'figure drawing for all it's worth, loomis'. Put in those proportion lines !!! After a while you can start to put them in after you drew the figure, to test & correct, but only if you put them in now !
For heads, use 'the heads and hands, loomis'. Start with page 21, work your way up, but spend a lot of time & effort with each page, only move on when you feel you have learned a great deal from the current page.
When I started with that page 21, I couldn't even get the ball, divided into quarters down (which is perspective). If I had not put in the time and effort to learn how to draw that, I'd still be stuck with distorted heads, no matter how far I'd be in the book by now !! Everything you spend on the basics will pay off big time later on !!

I'm sure Bridgman and Hogarth are good books too, but I don't have them, so I can't say anything about them.

talmir

February 8th, 2005, 12:33 AM

ehh, your keyboard broken? Discussing your drawings never hurt anyone, and silence doesnt make you any more artsy.

But still, I see some improvement.

HEROIC

February 8th, 2005, 06:06 AM

Hey dude,
Talk to the moderator. And ask if u can type here. Then change the thread's name to sth else.

great, hope to see more stuff from u today.
g2g to school.
bye,

AMir,

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 8th, 2005, 09:22 PM

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February 08, 2005 Total Time: 56 minutes

Thread Total Time: 8 hours & 26 minutes

NightVision

February 9th, 2005, 07:22 PM

calm down a bit, drawing is not a race, lol.

I don't own the book, but I'll try to comment as good as I can.
page 11: good improvement from first to last drawing, as you go, you get the figure down with fewer, correcter lines ... good energy too.
page 12: what's that bump on his butt (next to his hand) ??? Even without looking at the example you should know that's not on a human, right ?
On his stomach and from the knees down, the lines are not making any sense ... these are supposed to be studies, not copies ... if a structure is beyond your current knowledge, simplify ... use ovals for the knees untill you studied their real structure ... don't leave them out or scrible smt unrecognizable.
page 18-19: THE PROPORTIONLINES MUST BE EQUALLY SPACED, otherwise they are totally useless !!!
The proportions on the figure (the one in the middle) are good, but that's thanks to you making a good copy, not thanks to learning the proportions (which is the goal right now)
page 20: same problem: proportionlines are not equally spaced from the middle down (too close to each other), and because you did follow them here, the legs are too short. Pretty logical, right ?
Page 21: good proportions on most, good energy too, some figures are falling, pay attention on that.
page 22: do we see the back or the front ??? I bet it's the back, but revise the (her) left leg.
page 23: torso too long, head a bit too short
page 24: good corrections to the previous problem !
For the pelvis same remark as for the knees (page 12): simplify to a structure you can remember when drawing from memory, for instance, for now the 2 disc system from loomis would do.

Conclusion:
You're getting pretty good at copying, but that's not the point right now ... you want to learn to draw what you know, not what you see.

This is what I wrote in acorn's thread on the question how to do a 'study', maybe it's interesting to you to read:

study = reading, studying (looking at with a purpose) photo's and drawings and doing lots & lots of drawings with the sole purpose to obtain a better understanding of the subject you're studying.

reading: loomis is good, there's a lot more books of course
looking: is faster than drawing, I usually look at a lot of photo's of people after I studied a certain part of anatomy, to see how visible those structures (bones, muscles, proportions, ...) are in real people, and how they differ for different people.
drawing: I usually do both fast & slow studies ... the slow ones to get it right, the fast ones to fix it in my mind. Also put in some from imagination, as a test to see if I get it, and what to study some more.
These drawings don't have necessarily to look good, although if it looks off, it probably IS off, and if you don't know why, you better put in some more time to figure it out ... if it's smt small that you know you can draw better if you only put in the time, you don't really need to finish it (every time), this time could be better spent on smt else.

For today, I'd like you to get the proportion lines right (equally spaced); some sketches like the ones on page 21 would be nice too, but this time some from your own memory and some from photo's. If you run into trouble, check the proportionlines. A very simplyfied check is this: crotch goes halfway the figure. Put in some other exercises if you like ... have fun !

HEROIC

February 9th, 2005, 08:01 PM

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 9th, 2005, 10:48 PM

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February 09, 2005 Total Time: 15 minutes

Thread Total Time: 8 hours & 41 minutes

NightVision

February 10th, 2005, 01:59 PM

Heroic, sure thing. You should know by now that I'm not nice when I crit, lol, even nitpicky, but I always try to be honest & helpfull. I try to give the kind of crit that has helped me the most in the past, even though those stung for a bit at the time. Hope you'll pay my thread a visit once in a while too, it's good to have you around :).

Cameron,
This is no use.
I expect you to follow the exercises given.
Not because I'm an authority on drawing or teaching on how to draw, and if anyone disagrees with what I'm saying, or has additional exercises, thoughts, they are more than welcome to say so, I'm eager to learn as well.
But there is no use into you doing as you feel, and us tagging along, saying ... better ... worse, hoping you by accident will find the right way.
I don't expect you to do an exercise and get struck by lightning and 'get it'.
It's a process and will consist out of many exercises.
The apple exercise was step one for you.
The proportionlines is step 2.
You decide whether there will be a step 3.

The line/circle exercise is a good start for every day, use it as a warmup, don't rush.
Go back to page 18, do the exercises, use the proportionlines (equally spaced !)
Draw some poses from memory/photo's
simplify ! ovals for knees, dics for pelvis, ...
Take your time ... 15 minutes is stopping by the time you get into 'the zone'. Put up some relaxing music if you want, draw till the end of the CD (at least).

I've seen enough people learn to draw. My experience is that:
The ones that did not advance are the ones that
1) do not draw (or try to get it done as fast as possible)
2) don't listen to the instructor

So in order to learn to draw you have to
1) draw
2) take and follow advice, even if you don't understand it (the understanding will come more easily by doing than by hearing/reading)
That's enough ! And anybody can do that. You too, you just have to make yourself do it.

Then later there will be more steps:
3) Use earlier advice given, make your own decission which advice applies to which situation
4) Find your own way, learn new things through your own research, experimentation, observation, ...

Everybody that does 1 & 2 will improve.
Most will add 3 to this (you have to keep doing 1 & 2 !!) pretty soon after that, some need some pushing but will get there too.
4 ... most will start with 4 ... but without 1, 2 and 3, it might not make too much sense what they're doing.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 10th, 2005, 08:02 PM

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February 10, 2005 Total Time: 6 minutes

Thread Total Time: 8 hours & 47 minutes

Dished

February 10th, 2005, 08:34 PM

Proportions! Thats awesome! Keep it up! Bridgman is an awesome author and artist. Keep going man!

NightVision

February 11th, 2005, 12:42 PM

yes !! Good work !

It's a bit hard to comment without the reference, but here goes:

Proportions seem ok, legs seem a bit short, but that may well be because I use the 8 head system (less heads gives relatively shorter legs).
For the pose ((our) right hip high, left hip low), I'd assume the shoulders would be the other way around: right shoulder low, left one high. Look at that again !
Very nice knees !

Can you post the reference pic for next time ? I'll need it for next exercise ! :)

For today:
Exercise 1 : line & circle practice, doesn't need to be long, just a couple of minutes to loosen up.
Exercise 2 :
redraw yesterdays picture, in this way :
* compare your picture from yesterday with the ref, where did you go wrong ? Pay a lot of attention to: the pose, gravity: is the figure falling to a side ?, where do the proportionlines fall on the ref, where on your pic ? anything else ? Take at least a (few) minute(s) for this.
* redraw it in the same manner as yesterday... fast, accurate, get the pose and proportions right (your analysis you just did will help to get it better if you did it sincere). Don't spend time on details (yet).
* analyse again (new pic & ref). See flaws ? Probably yes ...
* if there are proportion errors, correct !
* only after those are good, start refining the details, take some time for this to get it right. Keep analyzing both pic & ref while doing this, untill you think you're done.
When you need to correct a line: FIRST put in the NEW, RIGHT line, THEN erase the old line ... much easier to shift the line 2 mm to the right if the old line is still there, right ?
Because you seem to push really hard on your pencil, you could erase first, IF there will still be an impression of the old line left, as a guide !

Exercise 2 should take you at least 20 minutes !

This is NOT about drawing this picture for the 3rd time ! It's about learning to use analysis to improve your drawing (in a much broader sense that you may think now) !!!! Don't do this halfassed, or you will learn nothing & waste your time !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 11th, 2005, 09:31 PM

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February 11, 2005 Total Time: 10 minutes

Thread Total Time: 8 hours & 57 minutes

HEROIC

February 11th, 2005, 10:32 PM

OK look cameron, when u see the lines u get are not straight. try to do small staright lines, then, make bigger ones, then bigger and bogger. If u cant get the small ones straight dont jump to the next one. When u cant get the right circle, dont jsut leave it. Try to make some good way to learn it. Draw the centre then put 4 differnt dots at 4 differnt directions(top, bottom, left, right) with an equal distance from the centre, then try to draw the circle lines, by passing it from the points.
When i see your works, i think , u jsut wanted to pass out the exersize, there was just some note: " i've got to do the circles and lines". Dont try to finish the work, think about your work. U said u dont like thinking. well, in drawing u've got to think man. If u dont, u always stays at the same level you were before.

In the figure study. When u are drawing from the reference, try not to put so much time copying it, neither do a very fast line work.
Try to make it easier for your self. THINK, if u wasnt to draw legs, u've got to imagine it in your head. Next try to see your paper and imagine theres the image on your paper. Then, try to start from a point and in respect to that point, do the rest of the leg. But, u've got to break the lines into 3 or 4, like, to represent the gastrocnemius muscle(the big muscle behind your leg) u've got to break it to 3 lines. But u draw one line, to represent both your feet and leg, and THAT IS WRONG MAN. DOnt try to trick your self. This is not good. U are jsut copying, u get the pencil and start drwaing couple lines, and think, "well, i draw it so what? Aaaaa,, it wasnt helpfull, i dunno what to do"
That is not right. U've got to think, when u see theres sth wrong. dOnt be scared to use earaser. Its not a shame. No one will say " Ahhh, Look at this guy , he used earaser for just copying one of bridgman's figure drawings". No man, when u read my reply, go grab your earaser, look at your reference, think, and find wheres the problem , then make sure theres nothing else wrong with it. Then post it again.

ANd dont forget what i told u about line warm ups too, do them more, but correctly.
Do whatever Nightvision is telling u, keep up with da exersizes.
Try to make the drawing fun for your self. :^^:

ALi,

NightVision

February 11th, 2005, 11:18 PM

loooool Amir, that is exactly what I was gonna say !!!

Cameron, you've got to redo those legs ! you got them even better previous time. Remember, redo is first think what to change, and only then do it, or you might end up with even worse.
There's also a problem with her left arm (the unfinished one), check yourself what, and change.

Put in those 14 minutes you've got left ! Damnit.

Follow Amir's advice about the lines & circles !

That's what I wanna see for tomorrow (line & circle practice, and revisions to the first figure).
you're free to do some other drawings afterwards, but use the same technique.

Cameron, I know it's hard now, but you'll just have to struggle through, and it'll get easier, in fact it'll even become second nature.
But no struggle, no improvement ... it's that simple.

In fact, I don't get you ... you prefer hours of copying over 20 minutes of thinking ??? With our garantee that the thinking will make you improve much more than the copying ??? That you'll never get to an as high level with copying as with thinking ??? That it gets easier after a while ??? That it'll be so much more fun & less boring than copying, once you know how to do it ???

Go for it, Cameron, it's worthed.

BenB

February 12th, 2005, 12:16 AM

When doing the line exercises act like your wrist is stiff so you have to use your arm.

Put a dot down, then another dot. And with keeping the pencil just above the paper go over it until you see you can connect them. THen with one swoop (using your arm while keeping your wrist stiff) connect the dots.

step 1)
dot dot
. .

step 2)
.___________.

And keep it about as far apart as you see in your screen. Once you do a good handful of those, move up to larger ones.

Also I would like to see you do underdrawings. Basically doing light sketching until you get your over all shape and or perspective correct. Then once you get that done you can start to darken it up more. It lets you put a foundation down.

Although you may be doing just that, it might be to light to see once scanned in.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 12th, 2005, 11:16 PM

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February 12, 2005 Total Time: 20 minutes

Thread Total Time: 9 hours & 17 minutes

Form

February 12th, 2005, 11:21 PM

<3 look how straight those lines are getting dude :D keep it up im watchin you

purb36

February 13th, 2005, 12:17 AM

hey man, keep working hard. youre improving soooo much. g'luck dude.

NightVision

February 13th, 2005, 07:26 PM

good work ! See how much better that figure looks, because you really TRIED to make it better ! Effort pays off :).

When examining your pic without the ref:
bad:
- the outline (which is a defination of form) of her right (our left) leg around the knee
- linequality can still get a bit better, but that'll come with more practice
good:
- the figure is nicely balanced
- pose & proportions (not only in height, but also width) are looking good.

when comparing with the ref, I have one remark: notice the negative spaces: the form created between her right arm and that side of the body is correct, but the form created inbetween the 2 lower legs & feet is a bit off. Negative spaces are a big help to draw accurately from reference, so it's worth working on noticing them.

The line & circle practice: the lines are nearly straight & parallel, the circles are also good. But the lines themselves are a bit shaky, DO YOU ROTATE YOUR PAGE in the most comfortable way to draw each part of the circle ?? If not, do it, it's WAY EASIER !
Before, your linequality was better, but the lines & circles themselves were not, next step is to combine both.

Exercise 1: lines and circles 1 :
Fill a page with lines and circles:
- do not try to make them parallel, do not try to draw them in a certain place of the page, put them on top of each other untill you fill the page so that you can't see anymore if it was a good line/circle or not
- do it with your wrist stiff (like BenB said), some from dot to dot, and some just free
- do some very fast, some fairly slow (but not shaky !) and a lot at inbetween paces, try also short lines, long lines, and inbetween sizes. move the pencil away from you, and for some towards you ... which is easier ? for the circles: make a circle movement just above the paper (not touching), and then in the same movement put it down and make the circle. Even try some with your eyes closed, feel the movement.
- don't push too hard on your pencil !
- find the best way to make these lines/circles with nice, non-shaky lines ... they will not be perfect, but that's where the second exercise comes in.
This won't take long (few minutes), but don't rush !!! Experiment !

Exercise 2: lines & circles 2 :
Use a new page.
This time parallel lines and nice circles, do this immediately after ex. 1, incorporate what you found to work best.
For the circles, they won't be perfect, mine are usually about 75 % good, but with a bump or open or smt like that. Erase the part that's not good, and use the slow method (like Heroic said) to get it perfectly round.
Probably about 5 - 10 minutes.

Exercise 3: mannikin (proportions) :
Use loomis: Figure drawing for what it's worth: page 38
- Put your page short side up
- use a ruler to make the proportionlines (eqally spaced ! remember ?), from one side of the page to the other, you'll draw a series of mannikins within these lines (at least 4 or 5 figures), use (thin) pen or colored pencil so you don't erase them when you correct your figures !
- put in the width-proportionlines (for the frontal views) !! 2 & 1/3 heads wide (half on each side of the symmetry line) See where exactly these lines falls on the figure (page 26) !
- draw the first & second figure, look closely where everything falls within the proportions lines, how the bones bend !! Use page 26 for more info on the proportions and page 56 for more info on the skeleton in case you're not sure what structure you're drawing at the time.
- the other 2 or 3 poses, can be from the same page, or you can draw it from other ref (like a picture or a bridgman drawing) ... this is a bit harder because you can't make a direct copy (because you draw the mannikin version of the pose). There are a lot of poses on page 38 & 39, they can help to find that same leg or arm (or other) position as in the reference, use them ! If you draw it from ref, post the ref too if you can.
This may take 5-10 minutes for each figure, depending on the effort you put in (like researching on the other pages). Do at least 1 or 2 of these today.

My intention is, to increase the time you draw to an hour for the near future, and even 2 or 3 hours later on. (After that it's up to you ;) ) You'll need longer drawingperiods soon, because otherwise time will be up by warm-up and refreshing from the previous day with no time to learn new things. Hope you'll soon be excited to feel you're learning & improving, that you WANT to draw more, to improve faster. :)

Also, don't follow these exercises too mindlessly ... keep in mind that in time I'll say less, and you'll have to find your own exercises, and set your own goals.

Let me know once in a while (in my thread) how you feel about these exercises and if you feel you are improving (maybe not just yet, but then hopefully soon), I'll probably put some head & perspective exercises in soon too, cool ?

HEROIC

February 13th, 2005, 07:46 PM

:bow: NightVision :bow:

wow man, that was one heck of a good comment.

As NightVision said, i think u are drawing with your wrist, try to use the arm. Wehn u want to draw it, try to make some extra lines, like planes, that will help u see the body in a better view , the planes will guide u to see which part of your drawing is off. Keep the grid.
When u finished your lines, check it with a ruler and see how accurate it was, then get your earase in hands, and earase it, and redo it.

I still dont see a good passion for drawing the lines and circles in u. U've put much more time, i know, but, do u think, u are satisfied with ur lines?

try to feel what u are doing.
try to express your feeling in lines (dont try it when you are angry though), ampty your head, concentrate on the work, and draw little lines, very staright try to get them as straigh as u can, thats when u can feel that u'v become satisfied.

dont forget to the 2 exersizes NightVision gave u.
If u think " these stupid people want to make fun of me, ok, i'll draw the crappy lines again, and wait till improvement comes"

Well, lolz, IF u are thinkin like that, plz dont think that way. haha

We are here to help u, u want to learn , we want to see u progress. we want to see u get to a level satisfied.

im telling u now. if u continue like this, u wont get to anything, do more drawings. When u see u;ve finished the exersize wheather good or bad, go get an apple, or any other fruit, or anything else in your room, and draw it.

THINK while u are drawing.
Keep drawing man.

Push your self,

AMir :)

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 13th, 2005, 10:33 PM

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February 13, 2005 Total Time: 31 minutes

Thread Total Time: 9 hours & 48 minutes

NightVision

February 14th, 2005, 02:00 PM

pic 1: not enough experimentation ... see your pencil as a new friend .. get to know it ! Say, hey there, nice to get to know you ... let's see what we can do together ! Play with it (still talking about drawing ;) ) !
Draw hard & soft ... tight grip, loose grip ... hold it horizontal, and then use the side to draw ... and everything inbetween of that. There are no short lines right now: draw some short parallel lines, then some from short to longer (each line a bit longer), and back, sort of like a piramid, can you get both sides even ? can you get the gradation even (adding/subtracting each time the same length to the next line) ... do some in a star form: without turning the paper, with turning the paper .... do whatever comes into your mind, in fact for this one you have to more 'feel' than think. But don't just scribble ! Experiment ! Play !

pic 2:better !
for the lines: linequality is good, but there are some 'bumps', get out the eraser to correct (this is the same as I told you to do for the circles, why did you not make the connection for the lines ? Methods can be used in lots of diff situation, of course you may try a method on a diff sit, and it may not work ... analyse why not: wrong method ? or must it be changed a little bit before it works ? or maybe it works, but u used it wrong ? ... THINK !!
circles: much nicer than before, I like that you experimented with different sizes !

pic 3:
good:
- you put in all five & worked 25 minutes, more than I put as minimum, good !
- proportionlines

bad:
- each figure got only 5 minutes, this was the absolute minimum, and it shows.
number 1: where is the vertical proportionlines ? (measure them on the picture, because you only draw the skeleton part, you may gotta take a bit off (the part that would be flesh).
It feels a bit wide too, I think this is because the way the shoulders & thorax connect is wrong, also revise the pelvis-discs (angle)
number 2: why do you connect the upper limb with the hand/underside of the disc ? that's not it's origin, right ?
number 4: that upperarm is too short, you checked the position of the elbow, but not the angle of the arm ... gotta get them both right, or when you change one, change the other too so it's a good arm again ... this goes for EVERYTHING in drawing: follow the ref either totally, or when you change smt, change everything, so it fits together again !

Are you still drawing with your left hand ? If so, start drawing with your right hand. That theory hasn't even been proved, and neither are you exploring your creativity right now, you're trying to learn a skill !!! Every help you can get, counts, so use your good, natural drawing hand !!!

I'm gonna be a bit harder from now on ... I put a lot of time & effort into this, so I think I can expect from you no less. Today, at least 1-2 hours ! You're still not analysing & learning enough, today's exercise is again an exercise on that (so work on it !!), and also more practice on proportions & human figure.

Exercise 1: same as last time, read previous post, and the discussion of pic 1 to know what to do. You may easily do it for 5-10 minutes (take a second page if you need to). Experiment ! Have fun !
Exercise 2: same as last time, use comments on pic 2 ! about same time as last time should be ok.
Exercise 3: Loomis page 44, top row:
Draw the second figure, as good as you can. Put in the proportionlines (they're not on the pic, but they are always the same, see other pages, same help pages as last time will probably do), watch the width.
Simultaneously, put in the skeleton next to it (first figure).
So I want 1 (!) figure, that consists of both the bulk & the skeleton ! Clear ?
Make sure both the bulk part and the skeleton part are:
- correctly drawn (as in their respectiv. ref. drawing)
- fit each other: the skeleton is apparant in certain area's on a human, like hips, elbow, and many more (page 56 can help, notice the black squares !!). See where they result in humps & bumps in the bulk figure, and fit them.
Constantly check both skeleton & bulk figure to get it right ! THINK while doing this: why does it not fit, where did I go wrong, which bone makes that bump, is it logical that ... (for instance, the lowerleg is more curved outside in the bulk version than the skeleton ? Answer: yes, because there are more muscles on the outer side) !!! The more questions the better, through your search & finding of the answers, you'll learn & improve. And find new questions ... new answers ... more improvement.
At least 20-30 minutes, it must be right !

Exercise 4:
Redo exercise 3, but from memory this time.
I want:
-proportionlines (from memory, you should know how many & where by now)
-build the picture ... don't draw it by what you remember it looks like, draw it by putting in the structures in the correct places (that's what the proportionlines are for), by remembering those places. This time you may start with the skeleton, add simultaneous the bulk.
If you can't get far (don't remember a lot), stop with this exercise and redo exercise 3, pay some more attention to it, so you'll know more next time. Time is not relevant this time, make sure you know more this time than last time. Less time only means, you'll have to redo this more often before you remember the whole figure. After that, redo exercise 4 again (either restart, or work further on the first try).
Finish exercise 4 by finishing your 'from memory' pic, by referencing the loomis pics again. Find your flaws, not only in your picture, but especially in your 'know-how'. This is also a part where you can learn a lot when applied right.
I won't put a time on this one, the more the better, what you don't learn today, you'll have to learn in the future, so you can do it damn well today.

Wanna end with a quote :
There is a saying: practice does not make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect. You must reexamine the way you draw, always trying to correct your weakpoints. One weakness in your chain of skills will cause your level of mastery to suffer considerably.

Therefor you have to try to get it right, always and right from the beginning !Learning & practicing the wrong way (cause you did not put enough attention & effort in to find the right way) will leave you with bad habits, that are WAY more difficult to get rid off !!!!

PS, good advice Heroic ! I'm always happy when more people post, it helps me a lot too !

BenB

February 14th, 2005, 10:15 PM

Are you still drawing with your left hand ? If so, start drawing with your right hand.

I'd really like to know this too.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 14th, 2005, 10:21 PM

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NightVision

February 14th, 2005, 10:32 PM

hey, didn't mean to be too hard on you, cameron. Just so you know.
If you just wanna draw on your own rythm, just do so, k ?

Keep it up !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 15th, 2005, 08:14 PM

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NightVision

February 16th, 2005, 10:05 AM

Hey Cam, don't give up.

Even though I've more focussed on what you didn't learn yet (how to learn by yourself), you've sure improved from the past studies, and no-one can take that away from you.
For some people, like Heroic, the understanding on how to do studies comes pretty natural, others take months or even longer before they 'get it'. That doesn't mean you're not improving in the mean time.

So don't stress over the fact that you don't feel like drawing right now ... take a few days off, or, to keep the muscles going, keep it to 5 or 10 minutes ... maybe do some gesture drawing copies (keep the figures simple, like a mannikin figure). You've done a lot of those so far ... skip the proportionlines, and see how good you can do without ... that will tell you if you need to practice them some more later on, or whether it's coming natural already.

It's never a bad thing to take a few days off from doing studies, afterwards you can come back to it with a fresh head.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 16th, 2005, 09:36 PM

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pvpham

February 16th, 2005, 10:31 PM

Heya. With your lines and circles they seem slighty shaky. What you can do with the circle is do a few practise rotations just above the paper before putting the pencil down. Be light and fluid. Find a speed you feel comfortable with because going too slow leads to shaky lines and going too fast leads to inaccurate circles.

Keep practising dude. Your doing good.

Phil

Jason Manley

February 17th, 2005, 12:27 AM

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Hey,

Thanks for posting your stuff. An artists life is always a journey and a never ending struggle. Every artist I know says that they will never be any good and can not seem to find strength to push on through at times.

The true arts come from the heart, share an artists incredible journey through life and records ideas and thoughts for other people to identify with. Every great artist had an incredible trip through life which was full of joy and pain. Rembrandt lost his beloved, Bouguereau lost all his children many years before his own death, Degas went blind....the list is long. All left their mark on future generations. All created their works despite their struggles. All found their way and left their mark upon us because they did not give up and pushed on even though they thought they could not.

The fact that you are participating on this site, sharing your journey, and experience of life is inspiration. The goal of being good at art is not something that I think is the true role of being an artist. The real role is to be able to communicate and inspire and to lead to other people understanding life in ways they would not have had they not seen the work or watched you on your one of a kind path.

Life is never easy. Art is never easy. Self-doubt and frusteration come with the territory, but also is part of the beauty of it all. Without the frusteration there would be no real joy right? The artists path is long and hard and as artists we simply need to understand that. We must keep pushing on no matter how difficult things become. That is a measure of inner strength and leads to the inspiration of others.

Should you continue to pursue your path in art, you may not see when and where you have a positive or inspirational effect on another person. You may not see your own growth for much time. However, it will be seen eventually and will lead to a greater understanding of yourself and to the world in general. The journey makes us strong. It may be long and hard, but it is worthwhile. Taking the journey is worth it to many people and not just yourself. I hope you will continue to do what you do with strength and heart. If you do so, you will experience the fruits of your labors when you least expect.

Best,

Jason Manley

NightVision

February 17th, 2005, 02:59 PM

Jason, that's beautiful !

Cameron, I like the birds !

And don't be too impatient, all you have been working on so far, is
* how to improve a drawing through analysis
* some proportions
* linequality
and you improved on all 3 ... there's still work to do, but hey, it's not even been 3 weeks since the first study (counting from Heroic's hand-exercise).

*next exercise was, how to do your own study, where you can't make a literal copy ... if you're up for it, still do that exercise ... if you can't draw 1 - 2 hours in one day, divide it over several days, work on the same exercise until it's done.

*next, when you'll start getting the previous, we can get to how to draw from memory, using what you learned in the weeks before.

But, we can mix it up some ... how about some easier stuff, before you do that longer exercise ?
Take something you drew (like the bird, or smt else) and find some photo's that are close (google/magazines) as far as the subject & the pose go. Is there anything in the photo, that'd be cool to incorporate in your drawing ? Some extra detail you did not remember (claws, beak/eye, feathers, patterns, ...) ... or maybe something is wrong in your drawing (proportion, form, ...) ? Keep it simple, like in the exercises.

Or the other way around ... try to draw smt from memory that you copied lately, like the skeletons/simple figures from the exercises.

Don't be afraid to use your eraser if you see an error either !

Keep drawing !

adevejian

February 17th, 2005, 03:13 PM

As much as you said earlier about 'hating' your work or your drawing... i actually admire your style... it feels rough but it also feels honest and raw. I don't think people are honest sometimes with their drawings (I'm definitely guilty of that). So keep up the great fight, the world will bend over backwards for you if you let it.

Nealo

February 17th, 2005, 04:07 PM

Hi!

First, I want to say sorry if I came off as rude or mean when I responded to your comment on my sketchbook. Thanks for looking at my sketchbook by the way!

You're definitely improving. I think if you think more optimistically it might help you out. There's tons of good advice on this thread. I don't think you should ever time your art. I think it's a bad idea and I never do it. Sometimes when I'm done with a picture I'll write that it took 20 minutes, but only because that's how long it took before I was satisfied. Another great piece of advice: don't be afraid to use the eraser. It's so true! If you never erase, then you'll copy diagrams incorrectly and then you really won't learn anything. Soon, you'll start to become familiar with the shapes and you'll be erasing less and less often.

Also, I am wondering how old you are. Just interested. I'm 19.

I've never felt that I was very good at art, but I think I'm improving with practice. I know how discouraging it can be to take on something like this. I think you're doing a great job of it.

I think you should read every word that is posted here because everyone in this forum wants to help you out. It's a powerful learning tool to have tons of excellent artists giving you tips.

Keep it up PLEASE! I'll check back periodically.

Again, forgive me if I seemed very unkind in my response to your comment on my sketchbook. Good luck friend!

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 17th, 2005, 09:23 PM

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BenB

February 18th, 2005, 12:03 AM

Nice! Man those last ones are looking good. Keep it up. Once you start to get cleaner lines it'll really start taking off. Great job today!

In case you were curious, this is one of the sketch books I check daily.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 18th, 2005, 08:43 PM

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NightVision

February 18th, 2005, 09:08 PM

hey Cameron,

That's a great update ! You seem to get quite familiar with Bridgman, these drawings are getting more dynamic & energetic with each post & more of yourself is shining through ... what a difference with those mannikins from the beginning of this thread !

The proportions are pretty good too, but that's what I expected, you have gotten pretty good at copying accurately (you're way too impatient no doubt, but that pic from a couple of days ago shows that if you set your mind to it, and put in some time, you can get beyond that !)

But (it wouldn't be me, if there was no 'but' ;) ) there are still a lot of meaningless lines within the body. So I think you're still drawing LINES instead of 3D OBJECTS.

So let's go back to the basics for a while ! Perspective for today !

You seem to have a pretty good grasp on drawing 3D, and I think you said a while ago that you can do basic perspective ... so show us !

I want you to draw
* a cube in 1-point perspective as seen from below (so it'll be above the horizonline ( = eyelevel) ... draw it above the vanishing point (how many of the sides of the cube will be visible ?)
* a cube in 1-point perspective also as seen from below, but next to the other (how many sides do you see of that one ?)
* a cube in 2-point perspective as seen from above (so it'll be under the HL)

- use a ruler for all of these ... I don't want to guess whether you a) don't know how to draw it; b) do know, but didn't care .... ok ?
- draw the horizonline (parallel with your page)
- put in the vanishingpoint(s) ...
- draw the first line(s) of your object (a square for 1-point, a vertical line for 2-point)
- connect all the necessary points with lines
- also put in the lines you would not see if the object were solid ... make those dotted lines.

If you know how to do this, it'll be an easy exercise today ;).

If you run into trouble, check these:
perspective1 (http://www2.evansville.edu/studiochalkboard/draw.html)
perspective2 (http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/perspective/index.html)
You'll have to find the right pages yourself, but just go through it, you should see very easily which pages are about this topic by the pictures/title.

Write down on your page if you had to check the tutorials ... feel free of course to look into them even if you do know what to do... never hurts to learn smt new.

Looking forward to the result ... :)

NightVision

February 18th, 2005, 09:23 PM

lol ,seems like I'm a little late today, you posted while I was writing ...

Seems like you needed some 20 minutes to warm up today, from then on they're full of life again ... nice !

The last one (portrait) ... you say it's a lifedrawing ... is it from a bust ? Or did you break a real face into these shapes (selfportrait) ?
Can you let me know (in my thread maybe) ?

cburt

February 19th, 2005, 09:03 PM

nobodyyouwouldknow
...i just wanted to ask you to please stop posting consistently obnoxious downer replies to other people's sketchbooks. your sketchbook says "no words" which is in reference to your "troubled past/present situation". however, you break that vow by posting those words in other people's sketchbooks as a cry for pity rather than giving constructive criticisms and it is childish and unacceptable. and i'm all too tired of seeing it...have a good night and loosen up a little on your drawing, you're still so rigid.
thank you for listening...err..reading.

-cburt

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 19th, 2005, 10:10 PM

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HEROIC

February 19th, 2005, 10:57 PM

Nice, cool, lines are getting better. :confident

But U ARE NOT LISTENING TO US. THINK WHILE U DRAW, dont just sit there, copy, and say i didnt learn anything. Think, think, think, why? why u didnt learn anything, "everybody does this, and say that they learnt something, so there should be something wrong in my progress." :nohope:

WHY dont u think when u are drawing, why dont u ask your self, "ok, this damn, this crap i made is trying to teach me something. What is it telling me?" :(

HA? WHAT?????????????????

It tells you that you can learn the human body very fast and its simple, first by cubes, learn the places for cubes. Then it tells u, ok, your torso looks like a cage, you can represent your legs as triangular shapes. :)
U've got to read the damn book u've got, read it, dont open it up everyday, copy sth and then close it again, and say, i didnt learn anything.

READ IT. THINK, think does this make sense to u? what is it trying to tell u?, can it make it easier for u? :thinking:

ASK your self, ANALYSE everything u do. look over what u did and ask your self, what does boxes telling u, why did u draw the boxes, why is leg looks like a triangular shape? because u've got to go read the book, and see the anatomy section pretty much to the end, and look at the legs,, what the heck are these trianglar shapes? Bones? muscles? tendons?

:thinking: LOOK FOR IT, READ IT, ANALYSE it , THINK, DRAW, DRAW, DRAW, think. :thinking:

man,, Ur lines are damn good, why are u wasting your time, why dont u start seriously, why are u making your self bored of drawing.

i dont want to make u angry or mad. i dont want to be mean.
But for gods sake, plz read the book for 1 time, then analyse it.

THE ONLY THING U GOT IN HEAD IS " I WONT IMPROVE IN DRAWING< I HATE IT< I LOVE TO LEARN IT":nohope:

If u like drawing, why arent u changing the name of your thread, to something more interesting that shows u want to improve. Ur blocking your own ways by doing this,, whats the purpose.
Look at your self man, u are still young, u still got time, everybodys helping u, but u see the bad things first, rarely u would look the good things u had or give to u.

ur getting better, but u force yourself to think your not improving.
well, good luck, ive said these many times.

Draw more. :wink:

ALi :^^:

NightVision

February 20th, 2005, 12:59 AM

Hey Cam,

Listen to Heroic !

And you know what, from your PM from yesterday, I'm pretty sure that in a way you know that he's right ... think about it.

Do you want to improve ? Then stop wasting your time ... and don't waste ours ... and start doing the ABSOLUTE BEST you can !
We haven't given up on you yet ... then why would you ?

There's also one thing I want you to fully understand. If I give an exercise, than you can't expect to improve immediately in your imaginationdrawings.
I think: Exercise A, once he gets that, ex B ... and by F he should see improvement for area X and by exercise K, there will be improvement for the next area and so on.
If you stop by A, thinking, see, nothing yet ... why bother ?
Then how can I get to C ? There may be B1 and B2 and so on, in the hope you'll understand and correctly do the exercise if I change it a bit ... but there won't be any C, let alone F or K ...

Remember your promise from yesterday ? I want you to keep it.
No more copying ! Not until I tell you to ! Deal ?

If you want to draw more than the exercise, than do more exercises of the same kind from that day ... but first make sure you do the exercise correctly, that's the most important right now ... better 1 good than many half-assed ... and absolutely no copies !

Soo ...
You didn't follow the exercise exactly as I told you
* no ruler for the 1-point front square, but I'll take it that you know it's meant to be a nice square
* you didn't draw in the non-visible lines as dotted lines, I'll also assume for this that you know how to do that ... if not, please ask how to do it, ok ? This is not a test in order to rate you, but to know what exercise to give you next !
The last error is more serious :
* you did not draw the 1-point cubes right above it's vanishing point (or close) ... this gives serious deformations in your cube.
Try it yourself: put a box in front of you on your desk, now move it to the left or right ... how long before you need to turn your head to still see it ? Now your box is angled compared with you ... and you'd need 2-point perspective to draw it.

Exercise 1 (Write down on your page what exercise you're doing)
So, I want you to redraw the 1-point perspective ... my question as to how many sides you'd see has a meaning ... it would be 2 sides in 1 case and 3 sides in the other (yours have both 3 sides visible). Draw both cases (check the exercise for more info). With ruler !

The 2-point perspective is ok ! So next exercise for that is: freehand 2-point perspective.
Exercise 2
* Start with your linepractice to warm up for the exercise
Exercise 3
* Now draw some cubes in 2-point perspective without a ruler ... (dot - dot - line, like before). Make them straight ! If the lines turn out a little bit shaky: you don't have to touch up for the part outside the cube (you'd erase that anyway), but do make them straight, unshaky lines for the cube itself.
Exercise 4
* If you can get those good, time for the next exercise: no help lines
- draw the horizonline (straight, horizontal)
- put in the vanishingpoints
- draw your cubes by guessing the lines
- put your ruler next to it and see if you got it right ... if not ... practice more and check again.
Exercise 5
* If you can pull off all of those ... try without horizonline & vanishingpoints
the trick: IMAGINE your HL and VP's and let all your lines go to those imaginary points (once you have 2 lines going towards 1 VP, you can always find it's placement back by extending those lines in your mind and finding the point where they would cross.
IMPORTANT: your horizonline is still horizontal (parallel with your page edge) !!!
Start with pretty small cubes for this one, then your VP's don't have to be too far from each other, that'll be a bit easier.
Exercise 6
* Have some more time ? Then you may do a copy ...but only this one: put a box in front of you and draw it like this:
- find your horizonline (that's easy, it's your eyelevel ... if you don't understand ... there's a good explanation in the first tutorial that I linked (2 days ago or smt)
- find your VP's ... if you have trouble: take 2 rulers, close 1 eye and hold the rulers in front of you and align them with 2 parallel (that go to the same VP) edges of the box (so the are a bit longer towards the HL) ... see how they converge towards a point on the HL ?
- now draw the box, take your (imaginary) HL and VP's into account, just like in the previous exercise.

The purpose of this exercise is, to draw in correct perspective (with HL &VP's) even when you don't draw/see (for a copy) the HL and VP's. These are present in every situation ... drawing a cube (or whatever other object) freehand without taking those into account, will almost certainly result in drawing it wrong ! I'm pretty sure that you can do this exercise right, if you put your mind to it. Only go to each next exercise if the previous is understood and done correctly. No problem if it'll take you a few days to get the whole exercise done.

See you tomorrow !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 20th, 2005, 10:45 PM

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Thread Total Time: 13 hours & 5 minutes

Nealo

February 20th, 2005, 11:27 PM

Hey!

Nice vanishing point exercises! One thing though: use a ruler. Don't be afraid to use a ruler! It's just plain impossible to draw a completely straight line without one.

In response to your PM:

You have to learn to erase. You have to. You may not like to erase, you may hate erasing more than anything in the world. But if you hate it less than you hate not improving, you've got to erase. One thing that you should keep in mind about erasing is: the more you erase your mistakes and retry them, the less often you'll have to erase because you'll learn which shapes and lines look right and your hand muscles/brain will learn to draw them. You have to erase until your picture looks how you want it to.

Keep it up!

-sideshowbob-

February 21st, 2005, 04:10 AM

I dont know how U proceed when u draw .. how RIGID you are and how rigid u move ur hand.. how strained you are ... but i think there is definitely something wrong with these.. i say that because i analyse ur lines .. they are crippled and deformed.. when u need a straight line u get the opposite .. when u draw or copy.. its required to find a LOOOSE way to understand what see = studies ..
u cant force urself to draw an exact copy of what u see.. well.. u can try but i dont think its any good.. but.. try to find a more loose way.. and try to show urself how the artist made the pic u copy... the loose way is important here.. .. u cant press that knowledge u need into ur head but u can find a way to analyse things step by step .. there is no other way .. we all learn step by step - we cant understand any thing completly without experience ..

what u need is ur own way to show u how to draw.. u cant learn when u try to copy exactly what u see .. find a simple a loose way.. draw simple

when i draw lines.. my arm and hand act like a whip.. i slightly move my arm and the line is created thru my hand*wrist .. very quick *zap* to get my lines straight and not crippled and deformed

.. your latest gestures.. are these drawen with mouse ? i hope NOT -

these perspectives are nice ! do more of them and keep ur lines straight and clean

pssss : looose way !
pssss2 : pm me back pls - and tell me what u think about this knowoneuknow

davi

February 21st, 2005, 05:35 AM

I'm glad to see you are putting forth effort into learning art.

struggling is human nature, but once we learn and progress great feelings can come.

we pick up a bike and fall, we learn, and we pick up the bike again. When we learn how to ride that bike our minds are exhillerated with the feel of speed.

we cook our own first meal and it for some reason tastes better than anything ever done, even though it's just mac and cheese.

and with each new step in art, you'll mind opens up to the world more clearly.

If you let it, you'll begin finding yourself.

I urge you to pick up that pencil and draw each day.

I have no former art training, and i have meerly learned by forcing myself to keep drawing, and keep failing. You will not see progress with each failure, it's almost impossible, but after 100 failures, take a peek back for a progress.

Art is not easy, espically when you feel that you have to prove yourself to others. This is extra hard when you are trying to prove yourself to a group of experienced artists. All i ask is you prove it to yourself. Prove that you are willing to try and are willing to ride through the bumpy road ahead.

goodluck.

talmir

February 21st, 2005, 05:42 AM

You have some nice comments on this thread, some that really should help. However I must ask you no to post these dinosaur comic pages. They are obviously not your drawings, nor are they relevant.

But I am seeing improvement here. Really, I do. Your lines dont seem as forced as before.

NightVision

February 21st, 2005, 12:32 PM

ex 1 ... no ruler ? But the perspective is right, so I'll count it as a good job :).
ex 2 ??? when you do that ex, the lines always get nicer after a few, that's why you needed to do this before ex 3 (see my remark there).
ex 3: the lines are not straight enough, so you shouldn't count on them to draw the box either ... and make sure that all vertical lines ARE vertical.
ex 4: upper cube: very good straight lines (the dotted ones) ... I don't know if these are by ruler or not, but however you did them ... keep using that technique ! (If it's ruler, then you'll need to practice some more on your freehand lines, before you can count on them).
BUT YOU DIDN'T USE THOSE GUIDELINES !!! And I pretty sure know why ... the VP's are very close to each other, therefore it results in forced perspective, and I guess you wanted to compensate for it ... and in fact you did a pretty good job ... but next time ... start over with new VP's (further away from each other) or follow your (box)lines and establish new VP's, further away ... and check that they are still on the HL and your lines do indeed come together in 1 VP (for that set of lines). Because then you KNOW for sure that your perspective is correct !
lower cube: I think it's pretty correct ... but what a mess, lol ... erase the part that's off and go over it again (correct) in the future ! :)
ex 5: almost correct ... see how nice the left front side is ? The vertical back line is shorter than the front line ... and that's how it should be (because perspective : further away = smaller, following the rules of HL & VP's ...) ... but the right front side should be corrected ... as far as I can see the 2 highest lines should line up with the VP established by the lower line & HL (following the other 2 lines would give a non-horizontal HL).
But you did pretty fine for a first ... you'll have to work some more on it to work out the flaws (that is what is says ... actively WORK out the flaws ... don't just mindlessly draw, ok ?) but that's only logical ... I still practice on boxes sometimes too, I'm sure I'm not the only one around here. :)

For today, same exercise, more time, lots more boxes ... tidy them up (eraser !) until they are right. Use your ruler where you see fit, but especially when you need to fix and are not sure which line(s) are wrong.
Draw them in different angles (object not always nice in the middle of the 2 VP's, draw some on the HL (part above, part under, also on different heights & angles), draw some higher above/under the HL or lower above/under it.
Both 1-point & 2 point perspective ... again start the day from exercise 2 (1 was a check, now you can mix it in the other exercises) and work through it as feels comfortable.

Expect to fill at least several pages (done with effort !) before they'll start looking neat ... that's for all of us the case !
If you think ... that much effort for simple boxes ??? Don't ! Bookcase, table, music installation, scanner, door, ... just a few things that are no more than a box with a few modifications (most of these should be with ruler done though, they'd look too much off if not ..But I wanted you to do some exercises soon where you'll need the freehand stuff ... you'll see (provided you work hard on these first) ... once you can do the box, you're close to being able to draw those as well. House, car, ... = boxes ... only with some more modifications (depending on the design).

In fact ... why don't you try to draw smt like a simple bookcase from memory ? If it won't work, take a good look at one (home/ google), find the HL and VP (1-point persp is fine for this) and go back to your drawingtable & start drawing ... no problem if you can't do it yet ... but maybe you'd like the challenge ? DO use a ruler for this one ... why ? because it won't look good freehand !! (check a few comics on architecture, furniture, ... even your favorite artist will probably use a ruler for those items (it'll depend on what style he draws in) !

Nealo, (Cameron please read this too) ... I wanted Cameron to learn to do simple freehand perspective ... everything around us is affected by perspective ... Cameron should learn to look for it and see it in everything he's drawing/seeing (but starting with boxes). Of course, when setting up a serious drawing with for instance architecture/vehicles/furniture ... you SHOUD use a ruler unless you're REALLY good, (and it'll still give a different effect) ...but when drawing from life, or when sketching, you should be able to get by without ruler because it'd be pretty impractical if you can't. At least that's my POV ... anyone feel different about this ?

Pichuerca

February 21st, 2005, 01:47 PM

Really interesting... keep this thread long time! ;)

Dont get down :nohope:

Pich

IanE

February 21st, 2005, 02:25 PM

Cameron.

I've been watching this thread since 3 minutes after you posted it.

You have indeed progressed. However, I don't know if your skill in copying has improved, or if it's your eye and ability to see what needs to be seen.

Either way, listen to the advice from all these great people. I'd kill for personal one on one advice from a few of these guys, and you're getting it free! And no blood, mind you.

Keep drawing, every day, as much as you can until you break you pencil or stab your sketchbook out of frustration. Eventually you'll reach your end of frustration, you won't get mad anymore. Why? Because then you'll understand!

Keep workin' on it, man. There is progress, no matter in what ability, you HAVE progressed! Keep working hard. Very hard.

Really liked the Bridgman stuff, spotted a lot of the drawings immediately! That means they look right or close enough!

Good luck, man. Keep working hard and you'll see improvement. There's already visible improvement in this thread! Keep going.

Ian

plsangel

February 21st, 2005, 02:28 PM

Should you continue to pursue your path in art, you may not see when and where you have a positive or inspirational effect on another person.

well then let me bring one to light =)

Hi Cameron, nice to meet you. I spent a good while this morning reading your thread and seeing your progress. I just wanted to send you a note and let you know that you have totally inpired me. Watching how consistantly you sketch, watching you do your research and apply it the next day, seeing you struggle and continue. I'm a newb also and sometimes I let my frustration get to me. Thanks for sharing your journey w/ me. I'm really looking forward to watching you become a friggin kick ass artist. Best wishes.

Ember

Nightvision - looks like you're an angel yourself =)
Davi - no formal training!? you inspire me too

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 21st, 2005, 09:23 PM

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February 21, 2005 Total Time: 47 minutes

Thread Total Time: 13 hours & 52 minutes

NightVision

February 22nd, 2005, 08:35 PM

Hey Cameron,

Those cubes are getting way nicer ! See, told you that they'd get better with practice & hard work ! :^^:

Still some flaws, but that just means you'll have to work some more on it, you'll get there, I'll go over them in a sec:

ex 1: great !
ex 2: ??
ex 3: same remark as last time, because you omitted ex 2. Good work on the vertical lines though !
ex 4: also same remark as last time .. and you noticed again in the one with the remark 'wrong'. Still, it's a good cube, if you'd extend the sides to make a VP, it'll probably be 1 VP (which is good), on the HL (which is also good), and and then made the other VP a bit closer too. A different object in the same drawing can have a different set of VP's ... BUT all VP's must lie on the HL ! So you can only have 1 HL in a drawing (except for objects with a slope), but it can have a lot of VP's. The rule is: ALL PARALLEL LINES SHARE THE SAME VP(set) ... if not parallel, it will have a different set of VP's
See here (http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/perspective/cone.html)
ex 5: getting way better than previous time ! The lines would still miss each other on the HL (so not end in the VP), but if you don't look too close, it'll do, so, good job !

The head-copy ... if you were to copy it again (although I'd prefer you to wait untill in a few more lessons) ... notice how perspective would apply to the size of the eyes (remember: further away = smaller; I do assume now that in a frontal view they'd be the same size of course).

Thor: if you'd copy a more detailed pic like this ... still approach like the bridgeman figures: first get the gesture down, then correct shapes (his right leg !!) and only then start filling in the details, like the features of the face, details of the costume, ...

Next exercises ... no more cubes for now ;) :

make 3 columns on your paper
name them: column 1: 2D (flat, lines); column 2: 3D (volume) column 3: correction
and draw:
1) column 1:
draw a circle, and write down 'circle' next to it
column 2 (but same height as the circle): draw a sphere and name it 'sphere'
leave column 3 blank for now
2) 'square' and 'cube'
3) column 1: rectangle (or square) and circle (so 2 forms in this column for this object)
column 2: cylinder
4) column 1: triangle & circle
column 2: cone
5) column 1: triangle
column 2: pyramid

Draw them without using reference of any kind ... do you know how to draw these ? How would you convince someone, that you did not draw a circle, but a sphere (there's more than 1 way) ? How about the other objects (column 1 is always the 2D shapes that make up this 3D object) ?
Do realise, that you can pick up and hold 3D objects ... and not so for 2D objects (as soon as it has a thickness, it's 3D).

After you did this, I want you to read this tutorial (http://www.anticz.com/anticz.htm) (you'll have to make a few clicks for the tutorial itself, sorry ... : click 'learn' and then it's tutorial nr 6: Ron Lemen: Understanding 3D form on paper.
And also check Loomis, this page (http://d538518.u320.bigcrawler.com/successfuldrawing/10.htm)
Now see if you made any mistakes in column 2, and draw them correct in column 3. Try to understand why it's drawn like that, don't just copy it.

Now let's put these shapes in perspective ... freehand is ok if you're really careful ... ruler is good too of course. We haven't gone over ellipses, you can check Loomis 'succesful drawing' on it, or this tutorial (http://drawthrough.com/tutorials/index.html) , if you run into trouble... and otherwise we'll get to it later.
Read this first (don't worry, it's short): mentler-tutorial (http://www.tsofa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=315)
It'll give you some things to think about ! And now just fill your page(s) with all kinds of these shapes (only these for now). Once you can do that, we'll go to the next step ... and it'll start to get more interesting ;) .

Like always ... spend a few days on it if it's to much to absorb in 1 day ... but DO spend time on it ... at least 20 or 30 minutes/day, and I would really prefer you not to copy for a while (if you work hard, probably a few days to a week) ... once you understand this, you'll start copying with a whole new point of view, and that's what we're after ! In fact ... once you get this, we can get to drawing from imagination again too ...

Form

February 22nd, 2005, 08:55 PM

just wanted to say to nightvision - your bein a real saint helpin cam out like this. your process is deliberate and thoughtful. Thanks man...

cam: keep up the good work man, its exciting to see your gradual but consistant improvement. Are you seeing it? I hope so.

Later guys

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 22nd, 2005, 11:23 PM

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February 22, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour & 38 minutes

Thread Total Time: 15 hours & 30 minutes

NightVision

February 22nd, 2005, 11:59 PM

Hey Cameron,

Just wanted to give you some C&C on these drawings !
Your copying is getting a lot better ! The time spent on these drawings sure shows !
What I especially like, is that the proportions/basic forms are very accurate (without the ref, there are only a few mistakes I can spot), AND nicely rendered.

For the mistakes: take a look at the position of the ears (vertically) and their size, and also see if the last head didn't need some more 'back' to his head. Since I can't see the ref, you'll have to find if & what is wrong yourself ... but I'm sure you'll figure it out :) .

I'll keep the extensive C&C for 'my' exercise ;). Looking forward how you'll do on it tomorrow !

Form, heh, thank you ! Making me blush ! Plsangel, you as well ! :^^;:

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 23rd, 2005, 07:42 PM

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February 23,2005 Total Time: 45 minutes

Thread Total Time: 16 hours & 15 minutes

HEROIC

February 23rd, 2005, 08:16 PM

Hey cameron,

i see a great move man,
This is the first work i see from u that looks really solid,. IMPROVMENT.
1. Ur lines are solid,
2. Used earaser to get the shapes right.
3. nice Lightings
4. nice shadings.
5. Ur imagining 3D, dude, thats really cool. ur imagination of a 3D object is really good. the prespective seems a little off, but its great, AWSOME.
6. spent 45 minutes which is AWSOME. great to spend more time and get something good.
7. Draw from differnt views.

Now its time to take a big step dude. u always worried that u wouldnt improve, no see it. SEE IT MAN. ur improving, this is great. Keet it up. If u dont belive that u are improving and dont continue drawing with inspiration u'll be stuck at this level for ever. Do it, kick some ass man. Continue with the studies NightVision gives u. He is one awsome dude. Totally cool. :^^:

The way u copy is better than before, if u continue this,, u'll get better and better in da lines. Then ur imagination got to improve which it'll come step by stpe too, and so much easeir, cause u know most of the stuff, uev got to just apply it.

u've got to do all that nightVisoon gives u, and also do some drawing u like too, whateveer u like, but dont forget, if u dont do the excercises and do sth else, u wont improve.

Keep it up.
This guys awsome Cameron:
:bow: NightVison :bow:

Lookin forward too see more from u buddy.

ALi :^^:

Snookums

February 23rd, 2005, 08:18 PM

what I like about this is that you can totally see the improvement and progress you've made since your first post. also, you may not realize it, but drawing fast like this really makes your strokes economical. I like it. Keep it up dude.

NightVision

February 24th, 2005, 09:02 PM

Hey Cam !

You did great on the assignment ! It's also good to know that you already have a basic understanding of light & shadow ! That way we can go on to the next part !

The good:
your shading is incredibly nice, on the cylinders & cones ... I've never seen you shade so gradually, again a step forward !!!
Basically ... few things excepted, everything looks really good !
Your corrections:
- Taking reflective light into acount
- correction of the shadow on the cylinder

The bad:
- A few of the shadows & perspective are not entirely correct ... I'm not that good at that either I must confess, I would need to do some more reseach & practice to do good lighting too ... basically I'm saying ... you'll get by with this knowledge for a while, and then when the rest get's better, you'll have to do some more studies related to this just as I do.
- reflective light is heavily influenced by the materials of both objects that cast on each other ... metal - tissue for instance. If I look into my room for reflective light ... I can't notice it on at least half of the objects ... and the degree differs on the others, by which light I have turned on, and the materials. So you would need some more study on this to really put it to use. But that's ok ... so do I ... the moment I'll need it ... I'll gonna play with combinations of materials & lighting, do some sketches, find some reading material ... in other words, study to expand my knowledge. As can you ! The fact that you know about the concept 'reflective light', will help you look out for it when you copy/observate, because knowing that it exists, is the first (& important) step !

For today (hope I'm not too late):
no light/shadow yet, because you need first to know about the planes, before you can cast light on them, so let's tackle that first ! (To quote Loomis in a loose manner: when you draw from memory, you draw the planes, so to find where to apply light/halftone/shadow. When drawing from life/photo, you use light, halftone & shadow to FIND the planes.)

I made you an example:
http://users.pandora.be/Decryptor/imgs/sketchbook/Cameron_ex_2005_02_25.jpg

1: this is an other way to represent 3D forms ... see loomis for more (& better, lol) examples. Use this way for now, where ever you find it useful to find/represent the form of objects.
2: a cross can be used to find the middle of a rectangle ... also in perspective ! This is for instance useful when you need to draw the roof on a house !
3: I drew my lamp, by only using the 3D forms you drew yesterday. So I simplified the existing forms, and added 1 to make a connection (between the 2 'boxes', because the existing form was too hard to represent in a simple way (I could have done it if I had drawn this bigger ... my fault ;), but this should do for now ... because I don't want you to try anything harder than this for now). Even though I only used those forms, it does look like a lamp, right !? By the way, cut off cones count ! half spheres would count too, as would half a cylinder (cut in the length) ... and so on !
PS, the black parts, are where I screwed up my ellipses (I should practice them some more, I know), and then I just made them totally black, cause I scribbled ... it's not shadow or anything !

Excercise 1: Look around the house, and find these forms in objects ... some you can pretty much build by just these blocks (like my lamp), others would be harder, right ? Do simplify ! That lamp ... where it says 'box', it's in fact 2 parts, but just as wide .. so in a next step, I could 'cut' a space out in the middle of 'my' box, and it'd be right ... The 2 cylinders next to 'box' are in fact spirals ... but drawing them as such would also only be a next step, if I wanted to go in more detail.

Excercise 2:
Find an object at home, that you could very easily break into such components (like my lamp), and draw it by just using those buildingblocks ... simplify ! Take your time ! If you find it hard to draw a certain part ... try to draw it next to your object a few times, untill you get it (because you need to draw these buildingblocks in perspective ... so it's also an exercise on that).

Excercise 3:
Try to draw the same object, by remembering your buildingblocks ... not the lines !!!

Excercise 4:
Now close your eyes, and think about an object that you are VERY familiar with, and that would be very easy to break down into these blocks.
For instance your desk or a table ... how long & wide is it ? If you stretch your arms, can you reach both ends ? Or, how many books can you fit on it, next to each other ? Or maybe you remember when you got it, what measurements it had ? How heigh is it ? If you don't know in feet ... then how could you find out without looking ? Maybe you know how heigh it'd come compared to your body ? Or how many times it'd fit in your room in the height? How thick is the top ? Could you show someone, by holding your fingers at a distance from each other ? Where are the legs (that what you call those ???) totally at the corners ? or maybe a bit more to the inside ? What form are they ? How thick ?
Now try to draw that object, still without looking at it, but by using your buildingblocks, by using the knowledge you just thought of, also by using your knowledge as how it looks like (when you draw it, does it look like your table/object ? ... maybe a little higher/wider/whatever ?
Don't stress if it looks weird ... it may take a bit practice to remember those things.

Excercise 5:
Draw the same object as in ex 4, but now from life (still try to see it in it's buildingblocks ... no details) Did you go wrong in ex 4 ? Where ? And why ? Did you not remember ? Or maybe your perspective was a bit funky ?

Excercise 6:
Draw it again from memory ... can you remember more than last time (ex 4) ?

Remember, no shadows & all, just forms/planes & simplified to it's buildingblocks. It's crucial to pick objects that are easy to simplify ... a face would be too hard for now ... but a lamp like mine, or a table, chair, music installation (depending on design) ... would be perfect ... if you'd choose a too hard object anyway ... find an easier one to do it again ... if you can build it with 4-8 buildingblocks, that'd be perfect for now.

Take your time to do this ... probably 1 or 2 days should do.
DO EACH EXCERCISE !

Have some fun !

See you tomorrow !

PS, if I am too late for today, tomorrow is fine of course ... and like always, PM me if smt is not clear !!

klinesmoker

February 24th, 2005, 09:04 PM

Keep picking that pencil up and rolling, you're getting better everyday.

Wes Mordine

February 24th, 2005, 09:59 PM

Hi!

I must be honest with you: the first thing I thought when I checked out your sketchbook like 10 mins ago was "what the hell...?".

Then I scrolled down.

I can now see that you're determined, and definitely improving. A lot! Specially in those last sketches from the 22nd and 23rd.

Your journey has just begun, but you're definitely on the right track. Keep it up, and follow these guys' advice.

Good work!

Nealo

February 24th, 2005, 10:24 PM

Wow,

There's really no way you can deny your progress anymore. The skull drawing reflects a lot of improvement. Your recent studies turned out very well too. Keep it up. You're improving.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 25th, 2005, 12:18 AM

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February 24, 2005 Total Time: 40 minutes

Thread Total Time: 16 hours & 55 minutes

-sideshowbob-

February 25th, 2005, 03:57 AM

very nice :D i love stetching like that too .. its much fun..

u can sketch almost evrything like that but the result will still look great :D..

i like ur bottle O_O nice style ! <3 <3 <3

this way u can combine easy gemetrie to setup complex geometrie :D

keep up man !

dont be afraid when u dont think u improve evryday or so... i think we all here know .. we improve evryday.. but we need a few days of more drawing to realize that we improved :) ..its just a process and u are a part of it :)

keep u those studies !

:^^: :^^: :^^:

NightVision

February 25th, 2005, 07:29 PM

Hey man !

Let's get right to the crits ...

You treated the objects as glass, which was not my intention, but I can see that you got the idea down. And you noticed yourself (referring to your PM) that this made the drawing harder to decipher. And in fact it is good that you did this (I did so too in my drawing, but I erased/or 'drew them in my mind', not on the paper ... and for complicated problems I would always draw the lines through, to make sure things line up ! So, good job !
But to get rid of the clarity problem: use dotted lines for the lines you would not see if the object were solid, or trace the 'visible' lines with a pen, so we can see both the object very clear, & it's understructure.

Excercise 1: very nice ! For the CD's, you could have made the front curve and the back curve of the 'hole' a dubble line, or just a bit thicker than the other lines, to indicate the thickness. The books ... I think the top one is just a rectangle so far, not a box ;), but I'm sure you would notice if you'd ink it.
Excercise 2-6: Looks like that was not too hard at all ! Good work ! In the future you can do this excercise some more, but with more complicated objects !
BUT ! I would not consider these FINISHED drawings ! They are fine as sketches, to get the idea down ... But now you have to take them to the next level, and place objects like these in the proper perspective and with nice straight lines (ruler !).
That is what I do as well in fact ... I would first make a sketch with freehand perspective, so I know what I'll be drawing, whereabout my HL will be and my VP's ... how big the object(s) should be, and so on. And then I'd set up the 'real' drawing, with perspective & all.

For your question about where to place the legs ...
I would draw a smaller rectangle in the tabletop, also in perspective (dotted lines), and I'd start each leg in the corner of this rectangle. There are rules on how to find a similar distance in perspective (so each leg is as far from the table corner as the others) ... you could do this with the cross ... keeping dividing the table top untill you're close enough, but there are easier methods .... maybe you can find it in one of your books. But for now, just take an educated guess if you're not sure about this method, because the more lines in there, the more confusing. But the rectangle you should do (just guess as where you'd draw it) !
Then the leg length : you have to draw one, so it looks ok, then make a rectangle in perspective, so that this leg would be in the corner ... so you can find how long the other legs must be. (In other words ... the 4 legs & the space within them would together be a box, thats a bit less wide & long than the tabletop (which is a flat box).
Take a look at that tutorial I sent you today, fig 5: you can see by the dotted lines, how they found the length of the table legs.
If this doesn't answer your question, let me know.

Next excercise ... I'd like to know your opinion on my PM, before I write it ... so if I don't catch you before you draw today, make up your own excercise for today ... either redoing ex 2-3 or 4-5-6 from yesterday, but with care & perspective ... or do the one I proposed in the email (railroad/bookcase).
Well, you do know what I want : simple object with clear buildingblocks, straight lines (ruler), perspective and care ! Just make your own excercise around that & have fun !

Later !

* edit *

lol, just in time ...
ok, railroad/bookcase it is !

In the tutorial (for everybody else in case you wonder: it's 'practical perspective ... linked as 'tutorial 2, a few days ago), FIG 1: you see the drawing of a railroad in 1-point perspective.
I want you to analyse it very thoroughly ! What are the buildingblocks ? (there's 3 different ones), Can you figure out how each buildingblock is drawn ... for each line ... does it go to the VP ? Is it vertical ? horizontal ? Can you find the logic behind each line ?
Are there also parts that you can not figure out, that you'd have to guess ?
I'll give you a tip: the depth you would need to guess, or find an other trick than VP/hor/vert line.
You can do this with the cross I showed you yesterday ... choose the depth of 1 unit ... the horizontal box (the wooden part, dunno it's name ??) can be this unit, now draw the cross .... but not from corner to corner, but from the front corner, to the middle of the back side (of the same plane) ... if you continue this line to the other side, you have found where to start the next unit (which is the open space in this case) ... if you don't want to be box & space to be equal in length (it's not in real life I think), you'd choose box + space as 1 unit, and then divide it within, on sight (or again with the same method)
Once you found the middle of 1 box (measure !!), you can find the others, by just connecting this point with the VP ...
To find the placement of those triangular objects ... find the middle of each 'wooden box' with the cross ... and draw it half in front ... half behind this point (perspective: front half would be a bit bigger actually ... this just on sight).

Understand the whole structure ?

Put the tutorial aside, and sketch it out (freehand) ... to see you really understood it. Put in the HL, even it's not there on the fig.
Not ok: go back to the tutorial, until the sketch is right.

Once you think you totally understand what to do ... draw the railroad with a ruler and uttermost care ! Only look at the tutorial if you're really lost (but don't make things up) !
Can you make it close to as nice on the figure ? Give it your best shot !

Now draw a bookcase by yourself, using what you just learned ... it's even easier than the railroad ! Put in HL and a VP (INSIDE THE BOOKCASE, so it's for sure no forced perspective !!) ... where would you put it ? Think about what your normal eyelevel (= HL) would be if you were to be looking at your bookcase at home (either standing, or sitting in a chair) ! How many shelves would be normal if it were about a 2 m heigh bookcase ?
Again find the depth for 1 shelve, and find out how you can find the depths of the other shelves (there's a logical way to make them all as deep).
Feel free to look at any tutorial if you're lost ... BUT NOT AT A DRAWING OF A BOOKCASE ... if it'd be there .. skip that page ! You can look at your own bookcase as well, but analyse it, don't try to remember lines, and don't look at it while drawing ... go sit somewhere else !!

Make everything big enough and clear enough, so we can see your constructionlines (dotted preferably) and you have some space to erase things if you make an error.

Do take your time for it !
If the railroad would take you an hour or so, then keep the bookcase for tomorrow if you don't want to draw more than that !

See you !

Thunder Blossom

February 26th, 2005, 12:54 AM

Just had to pop by and say... wow, this is excellent.

Keep it up! =3

And to NightVision: Gotta say that you're really admirable. And a good, patient teacher. :hatsoff:

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 26th, 2005, 01:58 AM

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February 25, 2005 Total Time: 15 minutes

Thread Total Time: 17 hours & 10 minutes

NightVision

February 26th, 2005, 04:25 PM

Hey Cam,

Take a look at the railroad: compare the example and your drawing !

The biggest mistake: it's not 3D !!! Remember, BOXES ! NOT RECTANGLES ! And this goes both for the rails as the wooden parts !
Second big mistake: I think you did use the cross to make each 'wood + space'part smaller when further ... but you did not INSIDE this rectangle: the small parts should get bigger if closer to us (you do that a little bit, but it should be more) !!! If you find it too hard to guess, make today both wood part & space equally deep ... so 1 rectangle is not both, but alternating 1 of those !

Also, you forgot some of the details:
- the wooden parts sticking out next to the rails
- where's the triangular pieces ?

For the bookcase:
At first sight it's ok, but:
- You did not choose your VP INSIDE the bookcase (so you need to pick another than the one from the railroad, or you'd be drawing them on top of each other, which is of course not the intention). Is it wrong because of that ? No, it's not (because it's still close to the bookcase) ... but I did ask for it, so choose your VP inside your bookcase today !
- is it 2 meter high ? If it were 2m, and you were standing or sitting in front of it, could you see the top ? Would it only have 2 shelves ? Again, this makes it not wrong, but it does change the excercise and therefor changes the problem I want you to solve !!
- work even harder on getting those vertical & horizontal lines COMPLETELY vertical & horizontal ! It's close ... but not completely ... and this makes it harder for both you and me to see if things are off because of this ... or because you did not understand the constructionmethod !!
- The DEPTH of the SHELVES: it's close, but I can't make up out of your drawing, whether you constructed slightly skewed ... or just guessed really close ...
This is the biggest mistake here ... DID YOU REALISE that this is in fact a box with a thickness (the thickness of the wood) and that the backside of this box (the inside of it ... so the outside minus the thickness of the wood) determines the depth of each shelve ???
Therefor, if you establish the depth of 1 shelve, and draw the vertical line in the back ... you can lengthen this line for the whole bookcase ... and find like that the depths of the other shelves (where this line crosses with the line going to the VP). For me to really see that you got this, you should have drawn in the helplines ... dotted for the parts where it's not visible !

For today:

Redo the excercises, like described yesterday, & taking today's crits into account ! Work at least 1-2 hours for the total excercise (over several days if need be ... give me a PM tomorrow if you'd post an unfinished pic, so I can wait with my C&C, or just pick out errors in what's already there.

So I want:
ex 1) A sketch of the railroad, with all elements in it, as a study of the object
ex 1b) If you want, try mixing it with the ex from the day before ... close your eyes, try to describe/virtually 'touch' each element (there were 3), and how they fit together to form the railroad ... even sketch it again freehand, like that excercise: drawing boxes to make up the object. You did good on that excercise, so this may a good method for you to remember 3D objects !
ex 2) A finished drawing of the railroad, without looking at any example ... if you do need to check smt: write that down: checked 'x' ... DO NOT COPY, put the example aside once you understand what to do !!
ex 3) A finished drawing of the bookcase.

Both finished drawings WITH ruler/other tools to get all lines perpendicular/parallel !! The sketch(es) can be freehand and/or ruler.
DO DRAW THE HELPLINES (the cross & other) AS DOTTED LINES !!! So I don't have to guess & get my ruler out to see if you might have done the same !

Go for it ! Take your time ... you do know, that if I see (a lot of) mistakes tomorrow, I may ask you to do it again, right ? So do your best ! -Not a punishment of course, I just think it's important that you keep working on this one, until you get it right ... that way you'll learn a lot more from it than when you stop when it's 'sorta' right.

I know I haven't said anything about the good things in the drawing ... let me assure you, I'm very happy with what you've been doing the last 4 days (not only those of course, but those in a row ... although the last WAS a bit short ;)), even though I focus mostly on the mistakes !!!

See you tomorrow !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 26th, 2005, 08:44 PM

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February 26, 2005 Total Time: 29 minutes

Thread Total Time: 17 hours & 39 minutes

NightVision

February 26th, 2005, 09:12 PM

Hey Cam,

That bookcase got you confused didn't it, lol.

I did a paintover:

http://users.pandora.be/Decryptor/imgs/sketchbook/Cameron_ex_2005_02_26.jpg

Here's what I did:

1) light blue lines from VP, to each corner (front) ... these will form the sides of the shelves (inside the bookcase) ... they need to be cut off, of course
2) choose the depth of 1 shelve: I took the lower one: thin orange line
3) a vertical line, from the intersection of this thin orange line & the blue line towards the VP, on each side: the red lines
4) these red lines make intersections with the other blue lines, this is where the back of the shelves is (the depth): the thicker orange lines, which are horizontal (since it's 1-point perspective, in 2 point they'd be parallel with the front edges, that is, parallel in perspective, so going to the same VP) of course.

Got it ? (of course my lines are not completely hor & vert ... did this very quick on the pc, but hope with the explanation you got the idea)

If you still have time today, or tomorrow before next excercise, try to redo it by following my explanation.
Do you also see that yesterdays try was closer ? You have a pretty good idea about what it looks like, but not about the perspective rules/tricks behind it.

See you later !

jetpack42

February 26th, 2005, 09:43 PM

all this advice is going to make his head explode. sometimes the solution is to do it 100 more times.

now wether he's got the balls for that or not...

NightVision

February 27th, 2005, 03:39 PM

he, I hadn't seen your edit ... still some errors ... you have more than 1 VP now !

If the shelve you choose as the first shelve is close to your VP, you'll need to make it not to 'deep', the closer to the VP, the lesser you can see of it ! Maybe that is what made it look weird, if you followed the rules ?

Now take 15 or more minutes ... and REALLY figure it out !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 27th, 2005, 04:15 PM

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February 27, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour & 38 minutes

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NightVision

February 28th, 2005, 05:49 PM

Hey Cameron,

Don't forget to think 3D in your imaginationdrawing as well !

Connect your study and your imaginationdrawing :
That horse would look better if it were for instance kneeling (front legs) and if it's backlegs would have correcter anatomy, ... eyes & nostrils have a different form as well... so find yourself pictures of horses, in a lot of positions ... (an anatomical drawing would be nice too, so you can see how bones & muscles go) ... look at them, try to understand the 3D form of those structures ... also copy them while seeing them as 3D forms. And then go back to drawing it from memory, with your new knowledge !
Some nice hands in there though, you're starting to get those down !

*Bookcase is good.
*basic forms have some errors here & there, but a lot of good things too ... keep working on them, use your tutorials, draw some from life. The sphere/egg on the left is floating, do you see ? The spere on top is most 3D of those 3 spheres ... can you see why (placement and form of the light/shadow) ?
*Lifedrawing is my favorite ... good 3D ... but give some care to your ellipses ... they shouldn't get 'pointy' anywhere ... some are good also, so you can draw 'em, but keep practicing.
*imaginationdrawing, like I said, connect it with your current study, use what you know, and practice (study/reference/observation) what you don't know, one thing at the time.

See you tomorrow !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

February 28th, 2005, 10:37 PM

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February 28, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour & 46 minutes

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Keepiru

February 28th, 2005, 10:52 PM

dude, I think that your little comics are a riot. That last one sort of reminds me of those "Garbage pail kids" cards I used to collect when I was little...if you dont know wahat they are, look them up.
Perspective is hard, but it looks like you're pluggin' away at it, and getting better. Nice to see you workin hard and not just feelin sorry for yourself!
-Keeps

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 1st, 2005, 04:58 PM

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March 1, 2005 Total Time: 3 hours and 10 minutes

Thread Total Time: 24 hours & 13 minutes

Form

March 1st, 2005, 05:09 PM

sweet jesus man!! what an improvement. As hectic as the subject matter of that second image is, its a bloody great improvement man! even though you havnt got the right anatomy, the intent of it, and the idea are believable. SO is the lil guy below. I think were seeing the seeds of your first succesful imagination drawings man!! The two study images are both fantastically fantastic, and the face at bottom is also looking really really good man.

To tell you the truth, your progress over the last couple of months sort of reminds me of the same pace i progressed at that point in my practice. I think all these exercises are really helping you. Im enjoying your art man, and im getting good at reading backwards text too ;) are you getting good at writing it? haha ;)

keep it up cam :D

NightVision

March 1st, 2005, 05:36 PM

haha, this is the best !!

See, Cameron, you can so much more than you think you can !!

You ask me for an extra assignment ... and I give you one ... only to see right after my pm, that you posted AND DID EXACTLY WHAT I TOLD YOU TO (without reading it) !

(Talking about mixing simple 3D objects and imagination ... the second drawing is from imagination, right ?)

Like I said ... don't have much time right now ... but I'll take a good look at these tomorrow !

In the mean time ... keep drawing ... keep thinking ... keep drawing ... and have fun !!

one2hit

March 1st, 2005, 05:39 PM

whoa, your lines have really cleaned up. I love the simple shelf/entertainment stuff, and your loomis skeletons are awesome dude!!

hrmmm I'd love to see some straighter lines out of you though, there is some shakyness, maybe sometimes the way to a solid line is quick, instead of slow?

keep it up. want to get better? draw more, think more, draw more, keep your mental eye in the game and don't become tired or sidetracked, draw more!

klinesmoker

March 1st, 2005, 05:55 PM

Jesus, you're getting quite a bit better! I'll agree with one2hit, though. Keep producing them lines and gain some more confidence in your capabilities! Bravo!

NightVision

March 2nd, 2005, 05:53 PM

About perspective (trying to explain as good as I can ... still learning myself):

1 HL ! (not counting hills ...) = eyelevel (horizontally)
1-point perspective: only 1 VP , on the HL, for all objects in 1-point persp in that drawing ! (= eyelevel, vertically)
in the same drawing, there can be 2-point persp as well ... this for all objects not parallel with 'the canvas', so angled compared with you ... these have 2 VP's on the HL, let's call that a VP-set.
If the angle of that object changes, so does the VP-set ! You can have as many VP-sets in a drawing as you want (all on the HL).
For a cube ... if one VP shifts to the right, so must the other, so both VP's of the set can't be inbetween another VP-set (as in your drawing, march 1 - 26 min).
Test this out for yourself : take 2 rulers for instance, and hold them in a 90 degree angle ... so that each ruler points to it's VP ! Now turn them a little bit (keep them 90 degrees, but change the angle with yourself) ... can you see where the VP's are now ?
Take your tutorial 'practical perspective' fig 28b ... object A, B and C have a different angle compared with the viewer (you) ... see the change in VP-sets ? (A' and A2 belong to object A, and so on) ... now compare again with your 2 rulers at 90 degrees.
Draw some (a lot) more of them ... have those rulers help you figure out how to place the VP's ! There's also another way, as done in that fig 28b ... can you figure it out (maybe with the help of the other tutorials you have, or any books ... this may be a study on it's own for a few days though, if it's new to you !) ?

Remember for the pyramid: it has a square as base ... which you can easily put in perspective, and to find it's point (top), you can use the cross ... (find the middle, from there a line straight up).

Don't forget to think about perspective in your environments as well: the one from march 1 - 20 minutes ... would all those lines go to the same VP (considering you drew it in 1 point VP I think ... or very close) ? Is there only 1 HL ? If you find your VP ... would it indeed be your eyelevel (the point you were 'directly' looking at, while you were drawing that pic) ?
I really like those enviro's, don't get me wrong ! You're doing really great on those ! Just trying to push you a little further again ... :)

For the next few days (if you want):
The same as last few days ... but lets get a step further ...

*Work on perspective like I just described (as a study by itself, and in your enviro's ... and of course in the imagination drawings as well if you can !)
*Right now, your imaginationdrawings are a mix of really simple 3D stuff (linked with the excercises), and your old method of drawing (although I think I start to see some influence there already as well) ... push the 3D objects a bit further ... not 1 or 2 3D forms connected, but 5 -10 (like the dog & mannikin) or more ... also for the background ! Try to round some forms into more realistic ones, but still clearly 3D and simple blocks ! See Loomis figure drawing ... page 74 for an example ... like the tail of the dog ... you could do that like it's described there ... it's a little bit harder, but still simple enough for you to work on CONSTRUCTING those forms, instead of copying them ! But take it easy with this one ... babysteps !!
*Also, try to do one of your environments from memory ... doesn't have to be completely the same ... but it should be believable ... don't do this for the copies of the skull, head ... these are way to complicated to remember as simple 3D-forms and perspective ... you'll need some more & other excercises before you'll be able to pull smt like that off (and make it look good).

That should keep you busy for another few days !

I'm not gonna go over each pic in detail, but I think you're doing good, and are ready for that next step !

PS, love that bunny on the nail ... so sad but cute ... poor bunny ...
Also neat that you redid that skull ! Much less mistakes, more 3D as well ... I like the teeth ... feel how they curve towards us ?

Keep it up man ! More ! :)

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 2nd, 2005, 11:59 PM

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StrangeAlchemist

March 3rd, 2005, 01:58 AM

The drawings from your imagination are cool man. All your drawings are improving pretty quickly from a technical standpoint, but what I like espcially is how the personal stuff has great feeling in it.

I hope you keep this thread going for a long time to come. I'm curious to see where you are going with all this. Keep it up.

NightVision

March 3rd, 2005, 08:38 PM

Hi Cameron !

I'm seeing some improvements, some things you incorporated from the excercise ... in pic 2 & 3 mostly ... good work !

pic 1: nice ... same comment as on pic 3 is here also true (more 3D), maybe less apparant, but the 3D form is clearer than before, and there are less meaningless lines, where it's not clear where they are comming from !
pic 2: the cube on the lower right seems to have it's own (different than the other objects) set of VP's, good work ! Don't be afraid to put the VP's and lines to them in ... easier for us to see if it's right or not ... and help you notice ! In fact, it does feel quite narrow (less than 90 degrees angle) ... the VP to the right, should be further to the right (if the VP on the left, is say 1 inch further to the right than the other VP (of the other objects in your drawing here), then must the right VP be MORE than 1 inch to the right of the other right VP ... give it a check with your tutorial & 2 rulers ... You're getting closer though !! Hehe, always give it (much) more than 1 try & keep working and second guessing yourself ! No matter how good or bad you are ... that's the way to get better !
pic 3: I like it, it's feeling more 3D than your previous enviro's too ... each object has it's place in space (where the previous are somewhat 'flatter' (less depth), ... maybe because you thought about perspective while drawing ? It may be the shortest exercise that you did yesterday, but I think it shows the most improvement for yesterdays batch ! It's great to see you make these improvements ... one day in 1 area, the other in another area ... like Form said, I also think these little improvements you're making lately, are very much a normal pace for this stage !
pic 4: here I'm seeing some problems with proportions, placement of features ... definataly not the best you are capable off. Though I'm sure if you had redone it, like the skull the day before, you'd have made it work ... so it's all fine, once in a while a lesser drawing is pretty normal ... just try to figure out what went wrong ... and you'll get faster to recognize what you did wrong in next drawings, or even prevent it. Really do figure it out ... it always gives me peace of mind, when I can find the reason why it went wrong ... so I know I still can draw, lol, just wasn't focussing enough or forgot smt or whatever.
Actually, your rate of lesser drawings to your rate of good ones (for your current skill level) is really good !!!

Keep practicing like this, refine your current knowledge ...put again a few new things in from the excercise ... I guess you know the drill by now ;) ... See you !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 3rd, 2005, 11:46 PM

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March 3, 2005 Total Time: 2 hours and 14 minutes

Thread Total Time: 28 hours & 10 minutes

NightVision

March 4th, 2005, 08:04 PM

Good update again !

Let's go over it:

pic 1: Like I said last time ... if you change the angle of the object, you give it a new VP set ... both VP's DON'T SHIFT THE SAME DISTANCE !!! If they both shift to the right, than the right one would shift further than the left one !!!
You can see this in your lowest cube on the right: to make it indeed a cube, it'd be pretty much 1 point perspective !!! So the front side should be parallel with us ! Or, if not parallel, the VP should be VERY VERY FAR TO THE RIGHT !!

pic 2: better ... still some things going on around the eyes - nose area, give that some extra attention next time :)

pic 3: good stuff ... good mix between simple 3D and imagination, you went again a bit further into that, so that's great !
You could cut off the stairs, instead of letting it go to the VP (unless that was the point) ... I like the snail and what it's on (the disk .. it's really nicely drawn !!) In the skull & face I also see some things you picked up from copying ... you'll need some study to get this further, but I think we can start that soon.

pic 4 & 5: pretty good, especially for the time spent ... do take a good look at the size of the chin (vertically) ... I think it needs to be longer ... but since the face length seems long enough, you'll need to make smt else within the face shorter ... you'll have to analyze what !
For the skull on the left, I'm wondering if the 'face'-part is wide enough, and if the teeth shouldn't curve out even further ? Take a look at that.

pic 6: Same remark as pic 1 ... in fact you have smt that's almost close to isometric perspective.

pic 7: nice ! See how much nicer this looks, just because you use perspective to relate all the objects in the drawing ! You can of course add a whole lot more details, refine & all ... but it's all still this principle !
I don't think that you used the perspective to build the figure (except for the face) though ... you could have build it like a mannikin (cilinders, boxes, ... in perspective) and then round it out, put cloths on top of it ... Right now it's still your old drawingmethod !
BUT, YOU DID MAKE A FEW MISTAKES ! Hehe ... remember ... 1 HL and all VP's on that HL (only 1 VP for all objects in 1 point persp, 2 per VP-set for 2 point persp) !! It's exactly the same method as with the bookcase, just the 'boxes' are a bit different in form & placement ... but the constructionmethod is exactly the same !
It was close, but not right ... train yourself to do it right EACH time, until it becomes as natural as breathing !

For the 2 point perspective, but for objects in a different angle ... DOES ANYONE KNOW A TUTORIAL ABOUT THAT ??? In fact, I don't know of any tutorial or book I own, that explains this ... so what I'm telling you about it, is what I figured out myself ... hm.

Check out This Tutorial (http://www.khulsey.com/perspective_2pt.html) !
Draw it, and try to understand the way of constructing ! Of course, you don't need to do it with the 'house' he drew, a simple cube will do at first, when you work on understanding the method !
Now every object that is parallel with this one, will use the same VP's ... wherever it is located (to the left, to the right, looking up to it or down on it, in every possible combination).

And this is the method I use to figure out how to draw an object in another angle towards us ... I draw a cube like in that tutorial ... this will give me the VP's for object 1 ... then draw a new floorplan (rectangle for a cube) on top of the other, in a different angle than the first, namely, in the angle of object 2 (compared with the viewer) ... I do the whole constructionmethod for this one ... that is, up until I find it's VP's ! Now I can draw object 2 in it's proper place, but using the VP's I just found with this method ! And so on !!

A bit more explanation about the tutorial:
- the distance '2 times x' is where you, as viewer, would be standing in reality, compared with the object ... this distance is completely arbitrary of course, here ... you can find x, if you know how long/wide the building is ... say it would be 25 m ... times 2 is 50 meter ... which I guess would be a nice distance to see a house clearly (5 m would be ridiculous for instance, you wouldn't be able to see the whole house without moving your head (which you're not allowed to do for a drawing, which is like a photo: one moment frozen of course).
- SP, is where you are standing, and the vertical line starting from there & going up, is the 'line of sight' as they call it ... the direction in which you are looking. Therefor, the intersection (point) of this line of sight, and the horizonline ... MUST BE YOUR VP FOR 1-POINT PERSPECTIVE !

Spend a lot of time on this tutorial, and use my notes, and even other tutorials/books on the same subject. You are not supposed to (always) construct this way once you are good at perspective ... there are easier ways ... but, those involve usually quite a bit of guessing ... all the time you spend with this, will help you how to guess right later on. Try to understand station point, line of sight, cone of vision (it's in the other tutorial) and what not ... it helped me a lot to make sense what perspective actually is, instead of just a bunch of rules I'm supposed to follow.

Here's another tutorial (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/tech10.html) ... it's very technical, so see if you like this kind of explanation ... but I won't blame you if you don't, so see for yourself.

Anyone that reads this... if I'm doing anything wrong here (since I can't find a good explanation about it anywhere) ... please let me know !!!

So work on this, and also the previous excercises from the last days, again going a few steps further each day ... maybe a few more days & then we can put smt new in again.

Later !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 4th, 2005, 11:57 PM

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March 4, 2005 Total Time: 3 hours and 15 minutes

Thread Total Time: 31 hours & 25 minutes

NightVision

March 5th, 2005, 12:39 AM

hey Cam !

I'll keep the crits for tomorrow, but just wanted to say: don't slide into your comfort zone !
In today's update there is almost no study (which would be perspective at the moment) ... no biggie, because you probably drew them before I posted ... BUT take away time from copying & imagination drawing tomorrow, to have a double portion of study, so you don't fall behind !
At this moment, your new info comes from study ... and your copies & imaginationdrawings are only to practice this new knowledge (your way of copying hasn't changed enough yet, to get a lot of info out of it ... you'll have to keep working on that to get to that level).

So ... no new input = no improvement
(and no practice = forgetting the new info very fast = also no improvement)

See you tomorrow !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 5th, 2005, 11:19 PM

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March 5, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 21 minutes

Thread Total Time: 32 hours & 46 minutes

NightVision

March 6th, 2005, 10:13 PM

Hey Cameron

Let's start with yesterday:

pic 1: pretty close .. his left eye & mouthcorner (our left) are a bit too low ... I think you do put in guidelines (which is very good) but always be prepared to adjust them if you see they are a bit off ... I do that all the time (especially when not working from reference ... with ref I'm getting better at getting it right (or close) from the first time ... comes with lots of (right) practice I guess ... :)

pic 2: like the dragon & the big eye-big teeth creature ... good acting ! The guy: I can see the face of the bust in there, good work ! Once you get some study of the face in, you won't have to rely only on your memory, but you'll have some rules & a constructionmethod to fall back on as well !
Before I studied the face, I could draw pretty nice faces as well, right after I would have copied them a lot ... but the effect usually wore off pretty fast ... now after studying the face ... I can get it pretty right EVERY time I draw it, provided I work long enough on it (and provided I don't draw a hard angle ... haven't studied those yet) ... the effect is now also slowly wearing off (I think I already told you), but only after months ! And I expect after another few weeks of study, it'll only take longer before I start forgetting some things again.

pic 3: good work again ... not sure about the line of the floor on the left ... shouldn't it be at less an angle ?
Next time ... draw your room from another angle (I mean, go sit somewhere else), to keep it interesting for your brain OR ... keep the same seat, but DRAW it from another angle ... start with the big objects like the table, set up an perspective view, and fill in the other objects (you know it's on the table, you know where, you know in what angle (cause you can see all that, but just in another view) ... so you can keep the 'guessing' to a minimum. If you do this second ex ... name it 'excercise B', so we know you choose the 'hard excercise' ;).

pic 4: seems pretty good .. (ellipses still need some work)

pic 5: still not sure about the teeth & chin size (although, since I haven't seen your ref yet, I can't know for sure) ... other than that, nice work !

pic 6: I like this one ... especially the robot guy & the guy on the lower left ... more 3D again ! I see you incorporated a part of your room in there as well ... it's good to start drawing from things you know ! I take it the falling table is on purpose ?

most recent studies:

GOOD WORK !!

pic 1: seems perfect to me !

pic 2: I like it ! This could very well be the basic construction of a military base or smt ...
One thing to think about ... the buildings close to the HL, I would expect them to get smaller, because they are further away (they are not floating above the other blocks, right ?) .. they would have to be very large in reality, to pull this size off ... too large to be believable to me, and therefor go against the perspective illusion you're trying to establish.
Loomis 'Figure Drawing ...' has a good explanation on that, on page 34 (it's about people there, but it's just as true for buildings or whatever object !)
This might be a good excercise (2) to do today/tomorrow !

pic 3: there's 1 mistake in there, in the construction method (one I make myself sometimes as well, when I'm not focussed enough, I have to admit)
You left the VP's on the picture plane, instead of putting them on the HL ... can you see it ?
Other than that, it seems fine ! (Although that mistake, makes the perspective on the object seem a little stretched)

pic 4: same mistake as in pic 3 ! Here it has also even more effect on the picture ... it felt as smt was off immediately !
I do like however, that you made the object harder, and other than that 1 mistake I can't see any mistakes ... providing you drew this from yourself, & didn't find a 'step by step' of this object, you incorporated a lot of the knowledge you learned before ... which means you understand it !
Excercise 3, could be to go for another view ... what if the HL and groundline are closer to each other ... what if the HL is further away from the picture plane ... what if the HL is LOWER than the groundline ? Just mix it up a little, go for new views, change the angle the object is in compared with you (the 30 & 60 degrees in the example - you already did that a bit in pic 4 actually :)) Can you, before you draw it, imagine what it'll look like ?

So next time you draw, you can do those 3 excercises (B, 2 & 3) ... and do some other things to your liking ... see what you didn't do yet what I described in my PM a while ago (with the long excercise) ... keep challanging yourself in trying new, harder things & incorporating what you study, in your free drawings !

Keep up the good work !

I think you're also ready to take on a next studysubject soon ... I'll PM you on that (probably in a few days) ... I'll still post here in the mean time though...

pvpham

March 7th, 2005, 09:32 AM

As Form and others have said, you have improved alot. If you keep on chugging like you are rite now then you will get alot better in no time.

In that last head drawing you did, the proportions are alot better than the one prior to that. The eyes are a little off, make sure they are lined up before you start shading. That can apply to everything. Construct, double check it, shade.

Nightvision: All I can say is wow. Thats alot of advice you have there.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 7th, 2005, 12:23 PM

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March 6, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 58 minutes

Thread Total Time: 34 hours & 44 minutes

NightVision

March 7th, 2005, 04:45 PM

So, Cameron let me know he was out of internet yesterday, therefor the same mistake still in there...

Cameron, I like how you dare to take on these harder blocks, and even do that one twice (pic 2 & 5) to figure out what went wrong !! That's the spirit !
Unfortunately, I still can't make out the form of the object on neither one of them (although pic 5 'feels' as if it could make sense ... just not seeing it). Since I'm not sure if & what went wrong, it's hard to give feedback, so I'll try to do it in general !

* if things get really confusing ... use the computer to serve you the best ... I haven't tried this myself yet, but I'd assume you could make several layers, for instance the object in perspective the top layer, the basic setup (top & sideview, horizon, pictureplane, stationpoint, VP's ... ) as a layer. And then for each cube or other 'simple' form, a new layer, with all it's helplines (but the visible ones on the 'object'layer probably, to see how far you've come. And then make layers visible & invisible as is easiest.
How to make this work & what exactly to put on which layer, would be for you to find out, since I haven't done it myself yet ... but give it a try & see if that makes things easier.
* in those 2 pics (2 & 5) there are 5 divisions in the topview, but only 2 in the sideview ... why ? Are they on the 'other side' of the sideview ? Are they 'inside' the 'big' cube ? I'd assume it'd be best to still put them in the sideview, but then with dotted lines, to indicate they are not visible in the solid object (but that way you can find their height & plot it to the perspective view).
By the way, you'd put the layers as 'multiply' (photoshop), so they are see-through if set 'visible' ... if you have questions about the settings, let me know, I'll see if I can help you out (not thát good with it ;) ).

Maybe if I take another fresh look at it later on, I may 'see' what I don't see now, lol, but at least the above may be helpful either way, cause I think it's pretty general tips.

other pics:
*portrait: good fix on the eyes ... mouth still slightly drooping, but much much less !
* also good to see you try the constructionmethod freehand ! See that you could draw that cube also with the previous perspective methods ... sometimes there are several ways to solve the same problem ... you wanna know a good deal of them, to just play with them & take the one that seems the easiest, fastest & most accurate for what you want to achieve at that moment !

Later !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 7th, 2005, 10:21 PM

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March 7, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 7 minutes

Thread Total Time: 35 hours & 51 minutes

Form

March 7th, 2005, 10:24 PM

i was looking at some of the first yr college students in my class today who are fresh out of school, and dood, your art is right up to par with theirs. Seriously. They draw stick figures.

Now i know your older, and thats one thing that concerns you, but man your progress is astounding. Keep it up, and let me know when they get back to you bout the kubert!!

-sideshowbob-

March 8th, 2005, 02:16 AM

nice stuff ... i really like ur perspective studies <3

but there is still something wrong with ur lines.. u draw them too slow i think.. or something wierd.. crummy

rotate ur wrist almost 90 degrees.. do it quick and while i rotate ur wrist draw a line.. draw courves and draw straight lines

try to get them straight like these lines u can draw with a ruler...just do that line quick .. maybe i cant explain what i wanna say..because ma dub english

loose and quick -> march 7 6min drawing .. u see 4 cubes.. the smaler one in the middle front.. thats a nice cube..check his lines..
they are like ______ <- non-crippled
and not like the rest -> ,.,.,.,.,...,,..,.,.,.,,.,. <- crippled .. these look like u grap the pen just with ur fingertips and then u draw very very slow ( i think its very hard to get smooth lines when u draw slow because its hard to controle)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/ARIASP/dogfood-lines.jpg

keep up! >:D

NightVision

March 8th, 2005, 09:51 PM

hm ... late again ... had to finish some stuff :(
Pretty sleepy, but I'll do my best to say some slightly intelligent things ! ;)

pic 1: almost good: take a good look at step 6 in the tutorial: The lines parallel with the 'topview' go to the picture plane, and then vertically down, to the HL where they make the VP's ... take a look at that ! This mistake you made in all perspective constructions ! (but I didn't mention them again for the other pics). See how much further this will make the VP's be !! This is related with my explanation on pic 6.

pic 2: I think this is wrong, because this is exactly the same as just drawing the 'looking down' view, and turning the page 180 degrees.
I think you just have to keep the construction like always, but put the groundline on top and the HL below ... so basically just switch those 2 lines from position (but of course still free to choose exact placement).

pic 3: it's looking from one POV, and drawing in another POV, right ? In that case, once you're done, check your drawing with the POV you drew it in, and if there are mistakes (in this case the table is clearly to 'deep') either:
* redo
or if you don't want to spend that much time (which is fine, the point here is to find & correct your mistakes):
* do a correct but quick sketch ... to understand the mistake(s)
* indicate (in another color ?) in you original sketch, what went wrong, and what would be correct, again, to LEARN from your mistake
Other than that, I think that went pretty well ... try it some more to get better at that !

pic 4: now THAT I can recognize ! I didn't go as far as to check each line, but I think even if you did make a mistake here or there, it's probably more because of confusion with the many lines, than not understanding ... so also keep practicing on this ... you're making good progress so far ! By the way, these are all things you should keep practicing preferably your whole career/life ... because, well, as an artist you can never say you are 'perfect' ... so if you strive to be (the best you can be), your study is never done ! Which is a good thing I guess ... always smt more to discover ... no boredom here ;).

pic 5: yep, you got the idea ! Now practice to get the same result freehand ! (use a circular template if you have trouble with your circles ... cause if that's off, no next step can be right (= built on a wrong first shape) !

pic 6: good enough (bit sloppy, but I'll bitch some other time on that ;) ) but do you see your shapes are distorted ? Especially that big cube !
This is because it falls outside your 'cone of vision' ! Look up what that is, if you don't know ! It's in the tutorials !Practically, it means your VP's are too close together (or the objects are too large and too close (horizontally) to the VP's). Normally, your VP's will almost never fall on your page (in 2 point perspective that is), but be well off of it ... one way around, is to draw your objects really small in the center (with the 2 VP's to the sides) and then blow it up, for the actual drawing (where the VP's are not on the page anymore) ... this way you do the technical, perspective stuff on small scale, and use those blown up guidelines to finish the 'real' drawing (print out from the pc for instance (& lightbox)) ... or you tape a few pages next to each other and use a looong ruler !

pic 7: good (except for that VP mistake again, like all the other persp. pics)

Heh ... don't be afraid to go over your drawings with tutorial afterwards ... just take a break, and then come back and analyse for mistakes !

For the next few days ... keep doing these excercises ... you choose which which day (work on all, but most on the ones you have most trouble with ... I don't mean to do each ex each day, just pick a few, and then a few others the next day, and so on).

And then let's put in the new studysubject: heads !
Book: Loomis, heads and hands

Page 11 - 20 : give it a read and look at the drawings ... don't copy them, just see if what's explained make sense when looking at them.
page 21 - 26: follow the step by step ... both analyse & follow the pictures AND the text ... both contain important information !
If you have a tablet, you can do it on the pc if you like, but if you only have a mouse, just do it freehand ... you'll have to learn freehand anyway ... the only good thing about the pc is for you that you work cleaner on it = less confusion I guess. Use a circular template though at first ... it helped me a lot !
This has a lot in common with the perspective construction ... it's also a CONSTRUCTION ... building the head ... BUT ... it's not nearly as rigid in rules as the perspective is, so, for instance, when chopping of a bit from the sides of the skull ... YOU have to decide how much that should be (by looking at the drawings and comparing your own with it !) For the length of the face: line straight down from the cross ... again you must decide how long to make it !
Your goal is NOT to make an exact copy of Loomis drawings ... it is to make a realistic face, that (at first) will be VERY CLOSE to what's there, but as your study continues ... will be more you and less your reference (unless the goal on that day is to make a very close copy, to work out trouble area's in your technique). So don't copy, but build ! Pay attention to symmetry ! To proportions ! To the 3D forms (eyes are 'deeper' inside the skull; nose sticks out, ... ). Pay attention to perspective (side further away = smaller). And most important, have it look as a realistic, good face ... if it does not look right, you must have smt not understood correctly in the construction ... go back to it ! Figure it out !

The first days, I'm not interested in seeing good features (nose, mouth, eyes, ...), but in right proportions, right PLACEMENT of the features (it's in the text that that is the goal in those early pages).
When I did those, I just put in my anime eyes & nose & mouths ... you can't learn everything at once. If you really are lost on drawing them on your own, then already take a look at where they are discussed, you will learn a lot more about them, then by just copying them as they appear in the drawings !

Don't go further than page 26 ... you need to understand this really well before you can go to the next step ! It's fine to take a look at further pages if that helps you understand things, but the main study are these page 21 - 26 for at least a couple of days !
Once you are out of heads in those pages, use other drawings in the book, or pictures of heads, as a reference ... but just start with the ball, & work your way up, like explained in these pages, EACH TIME YOU DRAW A HEAD !
You don't need to finish each head either ... in plate 4, up till step 4, is the most important right now (like loomis does in plate 1: lower row, first 3 pics) See that you get that, for now !

Lots of talk from me again ... read this again each day you start drawing ... see if you already forgot a few things, and put them to good use that day ;) ... I sure don't expect you to swallow this all at once !

Later !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 8th, 2005, 10:19 PM

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NightVision

March 8th, 2005, 11:03 PM

hey yo,

For the last pic ...

picture plane is top line

Then: HL and groundline (choose yourself which is top & bottom)

Lowest line is sightline

See it like this (from my perspective book, Ernest Norling):

* sightline is where you are
* the object is a certain distance from you, in front of you (otherwise you can't see it) ... the point where it's closest to you, is the pictureplane (that's where you could put the canvas closest to the object, but still in front of it)
* your canvas (drawing) is in front of you, but the object is behind it (logical, right ... that's how you would draw from life as well, right ?! you - canvas - object !

* But, to make it easy, everything is laid flat ... so you put your canvas level with the ground ... so it's still between you (sightline) & the object, but it's horizontal instead of vertical.
* HL and groundline, are part of the DRAWING, this means, on the canvas ! Therefor, inbetween sightline & pictureplane !

* Therefor it also makes sense that the VP's can't be on the pictureplane ... that line is not a part of your drawing (only part of the construction) !

Hope that helps !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 9th, 2005, 11:46 PM

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Thread Total Time: 38 hours & 29 minutes

NightVision

March 10th, 2005, 04:21 PM

Yo

pic 1, 2, 5, 6: definately improvement as you go !
mistakes:
* don't make the browline too high ... it IS the MIDDLE-line of the sphere (horizontally) !
* the highest part of the nose (between the eyes) is sometimes a bit too high ... pay attention to it's proper placement !

On all pages are faces that are pretty good, but also some that are not so good (too fat, features not completely right placement, ... ) Can you pick out the ones that look good ? Can you also find what you did diferently there ? Can you do it again ? Analyse both good & less good face shapes, to improve your skill & knowledge !

Pic 3 & 4: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW MISTAKES LEFT ... TAKE THE TIME TO FIGURE THEM OUT ... YOU'RE CLOSE !!!

pic 3: let's assume the HL is the light blue line ... so you are looking up to the object:
GIVE A CLOSE LOOK TO FIGURE 6 IN THE TUTORIAL ... BOTH MISTAKES YOU MADE ARE IN THAT STEP !!!!
* the lines parallel with the top view -> draw them from station point to picture plane
* now drop them vertically down to the HL (your blue line) -> these are the VP's (intersection on the HL) !!

give it another try, but first with a simple object (a cube will do), to figure it out !

pic 4: same mistake as before ... line parallel with object top view goes to PICTUREPLANE, then drop down vertically to horizonline ... VP's = ON HORIZONLINE !

pic 7: nice teeth ! I like the feet on that guy as well !
I see you made a head as well from memory ... Can I ask ... did you do it with the constructionmethod (first draw a ball, than the intersections, than cut off the sides, and so on... ) or just your mental image of it ? If the latter ... DON'T !!! If the first ... GOOD !

pic 8: GREAT ! Yeah, the horse is a bit long ... but NO MORE MEANINGLESS LINES ... you interpreted each form, and drew it as that form, yes ? That's great, that's what I wanted you to learn, and you seem to start to get it !!
Good work !
This way of copying, makes it a bit harder to make an exact copy, but makes it a lot easier to use reference only loosely, to help you draw your OWN pic. Since that is what you want ... practice this a lot more !

As a sidenote: Sometimes you'll want to make an exact copy as well (as practice of your observatory skills) ... so then you'll have to figure out how much of this new method you should use, and how much of the old ... and make a new, improved method of 'exact' copying ... this is normal ... each time I learn smt new, I make little changes in every facet of how I draw ... imagination, still-life, photo, model ... all are affected, even if the study didn't seem to have to do with that area of drawing. But keep that for later ... first learn to really think in 3D before mixing it !

Next to do:

* try to figure out those last kinks in the perspective construction ... keep the objects simple till you get it !
* analyse your previous heads ... wich do you like ... why ? Try some more and keep that, and my crits, in mind !
* feel free to study plate 5 (page 27) ... draw it ... use construction ! The ball is just constructed as before, but the lower part are the bones that make out the jaw ... try to understand the SHAPE of the skull (3D). Think about symmetry and perspective as well !
* try to draw a few more of those skull, but in different views ! Use some of Loomis' heads as help ... the one in plate 6 would be easiest, because you see a lot of skull in there, but you can try a few of other plates as well ! If that is hard (it very well might be), keep the poses close to the ones in plate 5 !
* plate 7: have a good look ... understand the action & location of pivotpoint ... turn your own head ... this pivotpoint placement makes sense, right ? You don't need to draw these ... let's keep that for a bit later
* plate 8: draw some heads as described here ... this is in fact the excercise as we did before ... break down the whole form in simple 3D forms ... except these are already a little curved.
Try it as pic 3 in the first row ... try that same approach for a few more views (use ref (loomis heads will do) ! Also draw the ones in the lower row ... can you feel how much curve there is ?!
* plate 9: Practice the basic planes (first pic, first row) ... again also in other views with the help of ref !
* read the text inbetween and look at the other pics, usually they show smt explained in the text ... try to understand !

This will probably take you 1 or 2 days (?)

Later !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 11th, 2005, 12:21 AM

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NightVision

March 11th, 2005, 04:35 PM

Hey !

pic 1: still most of them have the horizontal line too high on the sphere, keep paying attention to that !
Also THIS LINE IS THE BROW-LINE ... SO PLACE THE EYEBROWS ON IT ... sometimes the eyes (& brows) will be a bit higher on the face ... in plate 5, Loomis has me also confused with the placement of the eyesockets (on the brow-line ???) ... this only proves you can't copy any source just like that, no matter how good it is ... you still gotta do your own thinking & come up with your own way of working (with of course taking as much from other sources as you can ... but mixing it up ... finding your own truths !)

pic 2: this one is still wrong (I guess you know ?)

pic 3: I like the bridge & the soda(?)can !

pic 4: here & there some proportions off ... the body is a bit bigger on yours, and the limbs a bit smaller, so that kinda doubles the effect of disproportion. Some good things as well though, the dynamics mostly.

pic 5: I like the head, but like I said, normally you'd put the eyebrows on the browline ... it's good to start with the ideal measurements, before going for extremes.

pic 6: good !

pic 7: see the skull as 3D !! Especially the jaw has some problems !
Keep thinking of what you are drawing, THESE ARE FACES ... see the total picture ! Ask yourself ... does this look like a realistic face ? Even without flesh, it should be very close ... especially for proportions, symmetry ...

THINK when you are drawing these !
This is problemsolving ! This is like learning math or chemistry ... no use in doing excercises without caring whether they are right or wrong ... how would you ever learn like that ?

pic 8: looking good !

next ...

* continue with the excercises given yesterday
* take todays C&C into account
* for the perspective: you have it right now, so you can work on some harder objects ... maybe a staircase, house, ... (doesn't have to be that hard right away, but that'd be nice for soon). Also feel free to try some freehand perspective like this ...
Keep your tutorial around when you do this ... even if you think you know it by heart, still work once a while from it, as if it were the first time you saw it (focus) ... to make sure you're not missing/altering steps !
* for the heads ... just continue, but slow down, draw some heads really secure, erase where necessary, find your flaws .. last 2 days was quantity, today, try quality !
I know that's hard for you, but I also have seen several times, if you focus, you CAN find your mistakes and improve and study by yourself ... so try to do it more & more !

If you have a lightbox or tracingpaper around, trace some of these loomis heads, to get a good feel for the proportions, this really may help you out ! Do it slow and pay attention to the construction ! Think while doing this ! If you think 'Oh, I didn't realise it looks like thát', you've got the first step down !
In fact, if you don't have these materials ... think about picking some tracingpaper up if you can, you don't need a lot, because you should do it slow ;) !

Later !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 12th, 2005, 04:08 AM

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Keepiru

March 12th, 2005, 12:35 PM

Dude, okay...So you are'nt allowed to type anything on your thread, which is a great thing...but now you're using your drawings as a vehicle for your self pity? Dont write that shit all over your stuff, man, its stupid and nobody cares...you're getting better and we know it and YOU know it, so knock it off, it's counterproductive.
Those perspective head studies are really looking good (remember that the head is not a perfect circle, but more of an ellipse shape), and you know I'm always a fan of your comick-y stuff...you have a pretty wild imagination, yo! Keep up the good work and practice, You ARE getting much better! And no more writing on your sketches!
-Keeps

NightVision

March 12th, 2005, 06:26 PM

Hey Cam ..

You should have got my PM by now ... but here's that 'short' C&C ...

I like the profil face in pic 2: second on second row !

The staircase: It's off ! The highest step is right, but the lower ones, you followed the red lines instead of the blue ones (to the VP) !
Maybe there are more mistakes in there, but you gotta see for yourself, once you fix that one !

A little tip, if you have trouble seeing your mistakes (like in the heads, whether it looks 'real', isn't lopsided or has bad symmetry, ...) A good check is to mirror the pic: on the pc (flip it), by holding it to a lightsource and looking at the backside of the paper (so you can see through the paper, but have the pic mirrored), or I guess you could even hold it in front of a mirror. Turning towards a lightsource (lamp) is my favorite, it's fast & easy.
This will give you a fresh view on your pic again !

Keep going !

cthomp

March 12th, 2005, 07:01 PM

you ever draw the same object over and over. i mean not form a diffrent veiw. but from the sam veiw lghting and everything. find a picture and draw it about three times. you should notice an improvement with each picture. also dont be afraid to spend some time on some pictures.

EVIL

March 12th, 2005, 07:02 PM

stop measuring the time, it does not help you. Take your time, you can't change overnight because it takes time if you want to get better. If you don't want to take an hour to fine tune your skull studie or draw your room in 3 hours, then go and explore something other then art, cooking for example.
Then obviously drawing is not suited for you, rushing in art is suicide simple as that. if you want to store all those anatomy images in your head, then take time to draw them right, draw them precise. If you dont take your time for them, you will capture distorted images in your head because you draw them distorted, you will get used to your rushing and everything will look bad.

that is my first and msot important tip I can give you, stop adding a time to your images, and start doing studies (drawing a skull from 1 angle for example) that last more then 1 hour, where you go from light sketch where you lay out your light and dark, to in the end a full rendering. You don't need to be ashamed if this will take multiple days, nobody is judging you on your speed.

Take your time man and learn!

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 13th, 2005, 12:28 AM

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Thread Total Time: 43 hours & 23 minutes

Moysturfurmer

March 13th, 2005, 02:32 AM

I always found it useful to just practice circles and ovals and what not, by quickly making one, but doing it over about 5 ish times, same size, same place without lifting the pencil. Don't be too rigid with your movements, just loosely draw the circle.

HEROIC

March 13th, 2005, 07:45 AM

Hey Cameron,,

long time i havent checked your stuff man.
sorry i was so buys at school.

lots of progress here. wow, so much work. ALOT. thats really good.

I've liked all your works from imagination. Ur studies are great.
Just a little tip for head studies. I;ve seen your prespective studies. U've got to learn them, i suppose u did. These are really important. And it will be shown in your drawings wheather u have used or not. As i see your stuff. No, u've applied a little bit of what u've learned.

This one is the best :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/ARIASP/031005no079th.gif
When u want to do the other u should look at this one, and rotate it in the way u want, and apply the prespective studies that u did. As i went through your sketches, all your head studies has short jaws.

As for the this one, the prepective for the jaw and right eye is not right. If u analyse it your self, u can see the probs.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/ARIASP/Untitled-1copy.jpg

If i were u i would practise alittle bit more in the circles, u've already become good in da lines. But keep practising them before your drawings.
U wanted to try drawing with your left hand, and still doing it. So, u've got to practise alot more to get all your lines and circles right.

Anyways, these are great, so much stuff here. Practice more.

ALi,

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 13th, 2005, 10:26 PM

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March 13, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 42 minutes

Thread Total Time: 45 hours & 5 minutes

NightVision

March 14th, 2005, 04:20 PM

Hey Cameron,

Be sure to spend enough time on the studies !

Don't see those heads as lines made up by rules ... these are 3D forms, making up a head !!! Except, right now you keep them simple ... as if the surface details would been worn off ... these little rules are to help you see and remember the forms & proportions ... no more, no less.
In fact, last batch, there are a few heads that were constructed very nicely:
32 min: lower right head ! ... good work on the stairs ... eyeballs, alligator (has diff eyes though) as well !
21 min: good work on especially the 2 heads on the right ... proportions are not completely right, but the way you drew them, make me think, you really were searching for those correct forms & proportions ! Keep that up !!!

If you copy your bust again ... try for once to make shorter copies ... just like the excercises of the heads you're doing now ... so try to see the flattened sphere and the guidelines and everything in there (so don't look at the details). So the browline, will go at the same height as the brows and the top of the ear ... so 'see' (imagine) that line ... imagine the sphere, the middle line, and so on ! Then change your POV, and draw another one ... very simple like in the ex's.

Here's (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23042) a good tutorial, it's about seeing those big 3D forms in the face, so check it out ! ... I think this will be a good excercise for you as well, although you can wait a few weeks with it, so you got some more loomis done ...
Keep in mind not all drawings in there are done correct ... on page one there's an example by fredflickstone himself, so be sure to give that on a good look !

For the perspective (the day before) ... it's not very clear anymore, so many lines ... if you keep the object on a separate layer, you can post both 'all layers' and only the layer with the object .. that's easier to see if it's right, and if not, what's wrong !

Keep going !!

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 15th, 2005, 12:13 AM

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March 14, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 46 minutes

Thread Total Time: 46 hours & 51 minutes

purb36

March 15th, 2005, 04:46 AM

duuuuude...
i hope you realize that no, we do not hate you. i hope you realize that we are cheering you on. for some people, that means kicking your butt a little to get moving. for other people, that means taking the time to help you out (like NightVisions has so generously done). i guess its easy to be on the outside and tell you what you need to do, but not so many people are willing to get down in the trenches with you, to provide you with what you need to have in order to get better. and that is our own fault. but it is also our choice. personally, i dont know what i could add except encouragement because i do not believe that i would be a good teacher. i don't know a lot of references and things that would help. the only thing that i have known my whold span of drawing is just drawing and drawing and drawing. drawing because i liked it. drawing because it was fun. of course you want to become really good at drawing; we all do. but please do not try to turn it into a competition with other people. we are all here to improve ourselves at drawing and to help each other improve. that includes you. so please, don't think we are singling you out. we want to help. honestly, you have improved sooooooo much over the past couple of months, you really have. im inspired when i come to this thread to see how truly dedicated you are to improving your drawing. you are working really hard and the dedication is paying off. you may not see it because you are going through it at the moment, but if you look back at your first drawings you should notice that you are indeed far beyond where you started. sometimes in your drawings i see flashes of brilliance...the key to making these happen ALL the time is to keep practicing the right things the right way. and keep at it. and keep at it. and keep at it. good luck, dude, and i hope you have a great day. :) ill be around...

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 16th, 2005, 12:09 AM

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March 15, 2005 Total Time: 3 hours and 1 minute

Thread Total Time: 49 hours & 52 minutes

NightVision

March 16th, 2005, 11:19 AM

EYEBROWS GO ON THE BROW LINE !

If you want an 'eyeline', than draw a line halfway the face and put them on that line ... but NOT ON THE BROWLINE !

Put some more time in studies ... there are some mistakes you are making over & over (like the eyes/ brows, also usually you put the eyes too close together (1 eyelength apart, yes, but that's for normal eye-size ... you usually draw them very small as well). Work very hard on finding those mistakes & correcting them ! I know that's the hard part for you .... but remember what Heroic said a while ago ... you NEED to fill that first blank area ! No matter what, no matter how long it takes ! And then you can go fill the next one, but this time you know some more about how to fill it, and it'll be easier & faster !

march 15, 34 min: the teeth on that monster are great ! Very cleanly drawn as well !
25 min: I like the dinosaur, but if you want to take it further than this, you'll need to check out some photo's to understand more about the real form (3D) and apply it to your drawings !
The face (top left) needs more back to the head (that's why you construct it from a sphere, that's very close to the real form) and also the nose needs to jut out some more. Other than that fairly close !
the 21 min portrait ... redraw his right (our left) cheek ! Take that 'gap' out (next to the chin, under the cheek ... it's not all square like you drew), and it's ok !
the 24 min portrait is close !

march 14: biggest problem here is as well where the eyes & brows are placed and the size of the eyes ...
the profil on the first pic is closest (profils seem to be easier for you ? Makes sense, since there's only 1 eye to draw ... so 1 trouble area for you aint present ;) )
The face on 33 min drawing (left) is rather close as far as proportions go actually ... to get the right spacing of the eyse, give them a more realistic form (wider), space them a little further apart, and maybe drop them a little bit lower ... but on this one it's close !

GET THOSE LAST PROPORTIONS RIGHT !! And then you can go again a few pages further in the Loomis book. :)

Keep 'em coming !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 17th, 2005, 12:05 AM

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March 16, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 49 minutes

Thread Total Time: 51 hours & 41 minutes

NightVision

March 17th, 2005, 03:54 PM

pic 1: getting better ! Don't forget to indicate the nose(bottom) line ... it goes halfway the browline & chin. Also SPEND MORE TIME ON THESE FACE STUDIES, remember, you are trying to find out HOW TO STUDY right now, so focus more effort & time on these to see faster improvements !

With that out of the way ... nothing but praise from me ... it's a very nice update again !

pic 3: nice ! good symmetry, proportions, contrast !

pic 4: very impressive !
Is that skull from memory ? In that case ... did you remember what it looked like, or do you understand it's 3D form ... or both (which is what you are working towards) ?
The environment on the left is very nice as well ... the stairs are almost correct perspective, and since these are in nature, I would assume them to be a bit irregular in form, so it works ! I also like the grass & the treestump, and mostly, it works as a whole ... which is very important !
The 2 people are cartoony, but that's ok, you can go from cartoony to realistic if you work on it ... you need to know more details for realistic, so I think it's natural to draw more cartoony when you don't have that knowledge yet (and don't use pictures/life as reference) ...
The one totally on the right is very nice ! Good use of the constructionrules !
The 'face' itself should jut a bit farther out from the ball ... take a good look at the reference (loomis) (I had some trouble with that as well when I studied the profil, lol).
GOOD WORK ON USING WHAT YOU LEARN IN THE STUDIES, IN YOUR IMAGINATIONDRAWINGS ... THAT'S GOOD PRACTICE !

last pic: good work ! Seems correctly drawn, and it's one of the harder forms you tried AND pulled off ! Put in some looking UP to, so you practice on that as well !

Keep working like this ! I think you should go to plate 5 of loomis again as well ! You know it's the same construction as in the previous plates, the same proportions, but now with the simplified bones in there ... a little step harder, so take your time for it, you did some nice things on those before, now work again on them and get them again a step better ! Your copies of the skulls should help you, since thanks to them you already know a bit about the bones of the skull ! I don't know if you see the skulls as 3D, understand their FORM, not only the view of the picture/bust ? If yes, great, if not, then this is the moment to learn this form ... figure out from the pictures(use severa POV's) how the structures come towards you, away from you, CLOSE YOUR EYES, AND LET YOUR HANDS SLIDE OVER THE BONES OF A IMAGINARY SKULL ! Can you do that ? Look good at the pictures if not, think about their form, 1 bone of the time, piece it like that together, untill you remember the whole form, and not just one point of view (POV) you copied over & over !
Then draw it, from several point of views ... but start with the ones on plate 27, and then some more, with the help of the drawings on the next pages, and even the bust you have ... it has more details then needed, so imagine they are not there, just use it to picture the skull bones in a certain POV. If you have an actual skull, even better, but don't mindlessly copy, use it to understand the form better !

Keep 'em coming !!

jacobsteel

March 17th, 2005, 04:39 PM

I love the horse biting a man's head of February 27th, 2005, 11:15 PM. Great expression!

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 18th, 2005, 12:44 AM

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Thread Total Time: 53 hours & 38 minutes

NightVision

March 18th, 2005, 07:45 PM

Hey Cam !

If you have trouble using the construction way of drawing, when following an example (close to copying), and get in trouble that way .... well ... I have the same problem ... :)

What I do:

I copy the example, but at the same time, I make sure the construction is correct as well (& think 3D) ... so each part I copy, is double checked and corrected if necessary with the construction method ! ... and I constantly alternate between the 2 approaches while drawing the drawing (so the double check is not at the end, but constantly done .).

The reason that this is so hard (for me at least), is that it's pretty hard to make the ball & cross in exactly the same POV as the example (pic, photo, life), it's easier to start FROM the example in that case, and put the constructionlines in second (but DON'T OMIT THIS STEP... because then it's no study anymore !!).
Without example (from memory), this construction method is a lot more important ... and then I'll alternate between ... is it correct? (construction) and does it look ok? (experience from copying/observing) ... this alternating happens constantly (like every so many seconds) ... sometimes I get caught up by one or the other ... but when I take a step back (so I can see the whole drawing from further, and proportionerrors jump right in my face), I'll see the errors, and remind myself again to alternate between the 2 (and step back regularly as well).

I hope this will help you into finding the good mix for you !

C&C:
I'm sure you can see there are still some problems with the heads ... proportions (now some are quite long: either the ball is too small/ facial plane is too long (which is the same problem actually) and also some are crooked, lopsided ... let construction and perspective help you !
There are good faces as well ... so I think you're doing fine ... lots of faces/studies as well (although I think some may be more copies than real studies? no problem if some are copies, but keep pushing yourself to think & analyse while drawing ... ! Maybe a good idea, to start with a few fast copies, as a warm up, then dive into the real work (studies) ... I do that as well at times).

The copy of the skull is very very nice ! Nice perspective in the eye-orbits ! Maybe it needs a bit more forehead, before curving backwards though ? Still, great job !

Here are a few excercises ... more specific ... to work on the heads/skulls:

Excercise1 :
Use your plastic (?) skull, and draw it from a lot of different angles, but very simplified, like the skulls in plate 5 ... or not more detailed than that (you may curve the bones a bit more realistically of course, like in plate 6 (but without the flesh) ... most important is to consider it 3D ! Sorta like the environments (desk, ..) you drew from life a while ago as 3D forms !

Excercise 2 :
Set up the construction, as far as you can ... then put your skull/ bust or whatever will help you best at the time (depending on whether you are drawing a skull, or a face) (I use an actionfigure, cause that's the best I have) IN THAT EXACT POINT OF VIEW ... let it help you to correct and finish the drawing !

Excercise 3 :
You have an actual skull, so that makes things easier for you ... but once you can do it with the skull ... take a 'face'bust, and just use it to help with the forms of the face ... so: put the bust in the right POV you are drawing .... have your skull around as well, but not in the correct POV (close is ok in the beginning) ... then try to fit in the bones you can see in the skull, in the face ... you'll have to turn the bones in your head, apply perspective and all ... but you got the help of the facebust, because it limits the possibilities how the bone can fit & what it should look like. Of course put the skull in the right POV for a moment when you cannot figure out a certain part ... but once you get that part ... put it back in the other position !
In fact you did that excercise before as well in the enviro's ... look in one POV, draw it in another !
This is an excercise on perspective, 3D, analysing, working out problems, and more (and yes, also learning how to draw a skull ... but that's only small part of it) ... so think about these things !

Take your time to understand, try and practice this !

I use these approaches, and even more, each for the proper situation, combined, whatever ... By the way ... I didn't snap with my fingers, and invented these 'excercises/approaches' just like that ... every so many days/weeks, I run into a certain problem ... so I think ... how to solve ? And then I come up with possibilities ... try 'em out ... keep the ones that work and find out in which case they work ... and get more & more along the way.

Cameron, this is IMHO a very important step ...I've been itching to tell you the above for a while now ... but I think it took your previous practice, for you to be able to do smt with this advice ! In fact it's an introduction to how to use reference when drawing from memory (or better, drawing smt original) ... not needing a picture of the object in the exact POV, but have a few pics around of the object, and from that, imagine what it looks 3D, and draw it YOUR WAY !

Later !

blankslatejoe

March 18th, 2005, 09:21 PM

your improvement is impressive. Your dedication and aptitude for concept show that you have it in you. The only things missing are confidence and the aquired hand muscles, both of which will come with pratice and patience.
goodluck!

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 19th, 2005, 01:33 AM

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NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 20th, 2005, 02:41 AM

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Jens

March 20th, 2005, 03:04 AM

keep doing those skull studies, the one you rendered out on march 17th looks like real light is shining on it. well done.

you really gotta stop making those stupid remarks on your pages, you could make another sketch the time it takes you to write out those sentences.

blankslatejoe

March 20th, 2005, 05:25 PM

you really gotta stop making those stupid remarks on your pages, you could make another sketch the time it takes you to write out those sentences.

im with jens here, those remarks are only making you come across as whiney and self loathing. Keep in mind you dont HAVE to make EVERY sketch a masterpiece, drawing is a lot like working out. If you try and lift 200 pounds your first day at the gym, you'll destroy yourself, and you also wont succeed. You build muscle by doing things over and over again, repetively, and progressively getting more and more complex. Drawing is like that. And, like working out, anyone can do it provided they have the dedication to work at it day after day, week after week.

With drawing, you won't notice the improvement much. To be honest, its too subtle to see day-to-day, at least in my case it is. So don't let improvement concern you now. Just keep your eyes focused on practise, learning, applying, and above all, enjoying it. And in 2 months, when you look back at these early drawings, THAT'S when you'll see how much you've improved. best of luck!

NightVision

March 20th, 2005, 05:54 PM

pics from march 18 are missing (red x's) ... too bad ... I really liked that update ... I can't go in detail now, but you did those excercises really good, especially ex2 (if I remember correct), seemed to help you a lot (had the best results).

Do those excercises some more ... doing lots of different approaches should help you get out of (bad) habits, and help when you are stuck (can't get certain errors out of your drawings)

march 19:

pic 3: you got stuck with the perspective ... there is an error in there, which you could have solved by thinking about it like this:
There are 2 objects there BUT ... instead of drawing them as 2 objects, you can also see them as 1 object (sort of an L-form), than separate (draw the lines for the separation) ... in fact I can almost see that L-form suggested by the blue lines ...
You tried to solve this, by giving each new object a new 'startpoint'. Now it's not totally clear for me what you were doing ... but here are a few thoughts:
* there's only 1 POV possible (where you are standing while drawing/viewing) ... you can't while drawing, run to another place and continue drawing from there ... at least, that wouldn't be a realistic drawing (like a photo, you can only shoot your pic from 1 POV ... unless you start manipulating several photo's later on) ... this is ok in your drawing (it's the point where all green lines come together), but I just want to make sure you understand that !
* what you did, making these new startpoints for the forms behind the first ... is in fact not wrong (good perspective), but it results in an object NOT in the place where you intended it to be ! So this construction, putting down a line from where the 2nd object starts, will NOT give you the intended result, and is therefor not a useful, right construction to solve the problem !
* to have all the objects in their right place ... see them as 1 object, then seperate the parts. GIVE THIS ANOTHER TRY ! IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU TRY THIS, EVEN THOUGH YOU DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO FINISH !
I must admit, when I learned that, I had the same confusion as you, made exactly the same mistake ... but then I kept thinking, made some small sketches ... what if I do this, what if I do that ... to find out WHAT I was doing wrong.

I've seen you do that a lot already ... having good idea's on how to learn smt new ... but then when you are presented with a problem while trying your idea, you will omit it as a bad idea, instead of slightly altering it, to make it work for you ! Mostly, you want to do too many things at once ... you gotta simplify the task, single out 1 problem at the time !
A few examples:
- seeing muscles as 3D and rotate: if you can't do that for smt simple like a table yet ... then how could you do it with smt as complex as an arm (muscles) ? ... so first get good at rotating simple objects !
- remembering a whole figure ... finding out you can't remember more than the general things: that's cool ... find out what the general form is (use books, tutorials at first for that, if you're new to smt, than how can you decide by yourself the importance of each part ?! ) ... and learn those first ! (which is what you're doing now with the excercises)
- turning things as 3D objects ... if you can't do it when looking at the object (in another POV than the drawing), then how would you do it WITHOUT looking at the object ??

Learning one thing at the time is hard enough, believe me ;). So every time I find out I really can't do smt ... I try to make my task simpler ... put a few steps (ex's, study) inbetween, when I bite off more than I can chew !Like right now ... working on heads as well, but I have a lot of trouble drawing curves/ellipses in good perspective ... so instead of working that out WHILE drawing the heads ... I'm just reading up on how to draw ellipses (hadn't done that before while learning perspective), and practicing on them ... when going back to the faces, I should be a bit better at that, and I'll practice my curves some more with PROPER TECHNIQUE while working out the faces/skulls, instead of just keeping guessing at it.

pic 4: keep thinking about the general form as being a FACE/SKULL ... what do they look like to you ? For me, most seem not long enough, like they are missing the chin, or it's too much back, like almost pushed inside the skull (sphere part). First you made the sphere's too big ... then too small ... now you're again overcompensating, they are a bit too big again. You're getting closer, but remain very critical of how they look, and keep working towards the goal ... realistic face, good proportions !
Right now, take a good look at the line that goes straight down from the cross ... you're either not making it long enough, or not drawing it straight down, but a little angled inside ... or even forgot it a few times !
Keep going ! Keep struggling !

pic 6: That skull/head construction is one of the nicer ones you ever did in that POV (3/4) ... see ... hard work pays off ! ;)

The people in the imagination drawings ... overal proportions are fairly ok, good work there, but they are not 3D enough, and you'll have to learn the overal form of the body parts (legs, ..) also some more, but let's focus on the heads some longer, untill they start to get good & sink in ... better know 1 thing good, than several half !
1 thing I can tell you though ... see the thorax as an egg form ! (shoulders sticking out of course, otherwise they'd be too narrow).

Keep working on those skulls ... do again those excercises from march 18 ... combine them with your own excercises, whatever that helps you to learn those skulls/faces best ! Try that perspective again ! Use your right hand !

See you soon !

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 21st, 2005, 12:24 AM

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Thread Total Time: 61 hours & 16 minutes

runtosaurus

March 21st, 2005, 01:40 AM

Well you've already gotten a bunch of c&c, so I'll try to keep it short. First off, your drawings from imagination are really cool, although I'm a bit scared by how twisted they are! :$ But nonetheless you definitely don't lack creativity. Earlier sideshowbob pinpointed exactly what I was thinking you could improve on, which is your line quality. It looks like you draw lines reeeeaaallllllyyyyyy slow, which causes that really shakey/nervous look. It's good if you're going for that look and feel, but it looks like that's just how you draw. I kind of have the same problem, except I do the sketchy/furry lines sometimes. Try to practice drawing your lines faster (not time-wise, but just how quick you make the line strokes), hopefully that might help. It may sound funny, but sometimes the faster you draw lines and circles, the smoother and cleaner they look. Don't worry about how bad you think anything looks now, it's very obvious that you're making some great improvements. Have you ever sat down and looked at the drawings you did a long time ago and compare to the ones you've most recently done? Just be honest with yourself and you should be able to see some improvement like the rest of us have been able to.

Dan1989

March 21st, 2005, 11:18 AM

I just looked through this entire thread and I have to say, there IS improvement, compare the very first drawings in it to some of the better skull studies (the 30 and 37 minute ones for example), much improvement. It actually shocked me that you ARE improving, because I have seen your threads around this site before and I thought all hope was lost, but now I am starting to think differently, I think this thread is very inspirational and shows what dedication will bring. Alot (most) of these drawings look like they are done with a pen, why not try using a pencil more often? They are so much more forgiving! Also, there is NOTHING WRONG with starting a sketch off lightly with basic shapes and then gradually darkening the lines and erasing the ones you don't want to keep. Most of these drawings look like every line is meant to be a final statement, so I suggest you use an eraser more often. I hope that was helpful, good luck and NEVER give up! :teeth:

darth massacre

March 21st, 2005, 06:18 PM

I'm not surprised he improved after shutting up and drawing more and for longer periods of time.

You don't need me to tell you to keep working on it.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 22nd, 2005, 01:42 AM

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March 21, 2005 Total Time: 2 hours and 4 minutes

Thread Total Time: 63 hours & 20 minutes

cotron

March 22nd, 2005, 01:50 AM

You need professional help, and this forum is not the place to go for that. Your thread makes me sad for you, not because of your drawing abilities (which aren't as bad as you think), it's the fact that you want so much attention and are so destructively negative to yourself. Seriously, if you want to get better at drawing, it sounds like you need a better life first...seek counseling, find someone you can talk to in real life that can help you.

Morkai

March 22nd, 2005, 08:27 AM

Honestly, has no one else noted that the same negative crap he was posting in this thread is now being written mirrored in his drawings? Wasn't he being threatened with banning for that stuff when it was text?

You're here to get better at your drawing, which is steadily happening. Hopefully you're noticing that as you look back through all you've posted in here. Stop with all the hidden depression-sentiments scrawled all over your sketches. We're not here to counsel you, frankly it has no place in your exercises. The people helping you are helping your artistic side, not whatever psychosis or depression you may be suffering.

In short, less writing, more drawing. There are other places for the writing, other places and other people who will want to hear it.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 23rd, 2005, 01:08 AM

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March 22, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 15 minutes

Thread Total Time: 64 hours & 35 minutes

NightVision

March 23rd, 2005, 10:24 AM

For tomorrow:

ex1:
line & circle practice: have fun, do them slow, fast, tighten up when it's close but not completely ...
for the lines: dot-dot ... look at the dot you're going to, and find a good speed to make it a straight line !
circles: try making a circular movement above the page (close to the page), then in the same movement, put down your pencil and make the circle ! The 'aircircle' is like a practice circle !
Spend time on this: 10 minutes at least !

planes of the head: basic planes (loomis plate 9):
this is the skull practice all over again:

ex 2: understand the structure, how these planes go, look closely at the start & endpoint of the lines in the loomis example, the angle, and what 3D form it represents ! Draw it to understand, analyse your drawing & the example for mistakes & learn !

ex 3: draw the head with these basic planes, in all kind of positions ... let a bust help you ... this time you can't rely on copying the bust .. you'll need to look at both the bust AND the example of the planes, to keep the planes constant while rotating the head !!!! Imagine in 3D !!!

ex 4: find a good photo online of a portrait (like you sometimes use to copy), open in a painting program, photoshop or paint shop pro or whatever you have ... and draw the planes over it ! Do this on 2 different layers and don't make the lines too thick, otherwise it'll be hard to see after a while.
Start with a photo close to the view in the loomis example, and when that works, try out different positions (keep 'em close to the example in the beginning).

GOAL: understand and memorise the basic planes of an ideal head, and practice on rotating 3D forms in space (just like before, with simple 3D buildingblocks ... or simple objects composed out of few blocks ... now it's a bit harder of course, more blocks that make up a head ... so you need more practice to learn this ... but not harder than the skull ... except now you don't have an exact bust for it, so that's the harder part this time !)

At least 1 or 2 hours on this ... only excercises, no copying, no imaginationdrawings ! At the end of your session you may try out if you can do it without looking at the example (memory) ... put in the time to analyse for mistakes, and correct ... that's a great learningmethod ! Work out what you did not understand/remembered either afterwards (if you're in for a long session), or tomorrow !

A note about your recent remarks about talent & improvement: READ LOOMIS PAGE 26 ! Especially from the 2nd sentence on !
Read it everytime you feel discouraged !!!!

blankslatejoe

March 23rd, 2005, 12:02 PM

your attitude is begining to change. your backward writing 'forget about talent this is war' is not so far from the truth.
talent is often an excuse people who are unskilled use to discredit the hard work of those are.
Nothing worth having comes easy, and an attitude of 'stubborn battle' will serve you better than one of 'stubborn self pity'. goodluck, improvement is already noticable.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 24th, 2005, 12:12 AM

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March 23, 2005 Total Time: 2 hours and 40 minutes

Thread Total Time: 67 hours & 15 minutes

runtosaurus

March 24th, 2005, 01:08 AM

Hey there again... good to see that you're not writing anything unnecessary on your drawings, and focusing on drawing. :) Just a quick thing I noticed, perhaps someone could back me up or correct me on this... the skulls you've done with the teeth... you draw them like the teeth are all in a straight row or line... when drawing smaller details you need to remember to draw what you see and not what you think you see. With straight-on views you don't really see all of those teeth. I also think something that might help when you're doing your straight on and 3/4 views are to use a sort of a graph system... cuz right now I can tell you're trying to do the exact same head 3 or 4 times in a row, but the size and position of everything fluctuates each time. So it would probably help if you draw lines all the way across so everything can line up... I can't explain it that well but hopefully you know what I'm talking about, you can see some of it in the Loomis books too I think. And as always I totally dig your bizarre drawings from imagination. It kind of seems like you loosen up more when you draw from your imagination, but I could be wrong. Keep posting!

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 24th, 2005, 11:47 PM

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March 24, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 35 minutes

Thread Total Time: 68 hours & 50 minutes

Marked970

March 25th, 2005, 01:02 AM

I'd say those are very much on par with sketches! The cartoons you do are great, and keep getting better!

startraveller

March 25th, 2005, 03:34 AM

I've been away for a couple months, and I must say that I've seen improvements. Keep up the hard work!

... Now I need to get back into posting my sketches...

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 26th, 2005, 02:39 AM

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March 25, 2005 Total Time: 34 minutes

Thread Total Time: 69 hours & 24 minutes

runtosaurus

March 26th, 2005, 05:32 AM

Hey there man... I just went through the whole thread for like the 3rd time or something since when I first saw it. I noticed that the drawings you spend more time on are really really good!! This is usually true for everyone but I think especially you. There's one where you spent around 45 minutes on it with the cubes and spheres and you shaded them wonderfully. And also there's another drawing you did where it took 53 minutes or something and it's also definitely one of the better ones you've posted. I noticed a pattern where you spent 30+ minutes on stuff, it definitely shows. Patience is a virtue. Always remember to think about what you're drawing and analyze what you're doing right and wrong, then improve from there. Keep it up! :)

purb36

March 26th, 2005, 12:19 PM

hey man.
love the stone heads. kinda reminds me of heady metal from kid chameleon. keep it up man, youre improving. :)

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 27th, 2005, 03:34 AM

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March 26, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour

Thread Total Time: 70 hours & 24 minutes

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 28th, 2005, 11:48 AM

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March 27, 2005 Total Time: 59 minutes

Thread Total Time: 71 hours & 23 minutes

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 29th, 2005, 02:21 AM

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March 28, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 7 minutes

Thread Total Time: 72 hours & 30 minutes

-sideshowbob-

March 29th, 2005, 02:30 AM

great stuff dude :D

those head studies surely help a lot .. :painting:

are u left or righthanded ?
and whats the hand u use for drawing ? :dur:

ur stuffs getting better anways dude.. good improvement :D

dotn stop !
:yayca: :x :yayca:

deomonte21

March 29th, 2005, 04:03 AM

The firt image I posted is a drawing I did of a character I came up with when I was around 13 years old the second was a drawing of Venom I did when I was 22 which ended up being published on the previews comic website. I am now 25 and can even look back on that venom picture and tell I have become a better artist since then. The point is don't ever ever ever give up. Just keep at it and never stop trying. Pretty soon the things that seem so hard will become easy, and then you start practicing other things that seem hard until those seem easy. Its how we all get better. :)

P.S. as a side note ,I think that just as everone else has said, if you just stop focusing so much on the time it takes you to do a peice and more on the peice itself you will become a better artist. Once you have mastered a technique than work on doing it faster.

drawn at 13
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/deomonte21/checker-shot.jpg

drawn at 22
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/deomonte21/venom.jpg

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 29th, 2005, 10:29 PM

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March 29, 2005 Total Time: 41 minutes

Thread Total Time: 73 hours & 11 minutes

Tigermilk

March 29th, 2005, 11:27 PM

Okey, here's the deal.
You should give yourself some serious thoghts about drawing. Do you really want to do this? There are a bunch of other stuff that can be done in life.
If you want to continue, you should get yourself a god damn bok about drawing and anatomy, if too lazy, check out loomis homepage. And draw from those studies.
Then you need to get your lines muuch more loose, I can see a disturbing tence in the lines you often draw, try to loosen up and sketch a bit more.
And last, a very importent thing. Don't draw straight lines just like that. Try to build up your figures with whatever forms you think can come in handy. For instans circles, squares, cones, whatever. This forms are removable afterwards with an eraser.
Try this or keep bouncing around in the same circle as you do now.
No one can give you the powers to draw just like that, it takes time and effort, remember that.
And for God's sake, stop drawing those pessimistic words in your pictures that you often take more time to mumble about with than the actual doodle or drawing.
Jeez..

hope it helps,
Tiger

Piepiepie

March 30th, 2005, 03:30 AM

ya dude you gotta get the right attitude, stop it with the negative shit.
everyone can get as good as they want too you just need to belive in yourself..

anyways tigermilk whats the url to loomis webbpage?

Och sen.. :P jag fattar inte det du har i din signature..
Sällan liggande ulv ett lårstycke får eller sovande man seger.
vad menas med det?.. (sry the non english)
;D

NightVision

March 30th, 2005, 06:39 AM

Hey man, what's up with the no studies ????

Work on your lines ! The plane is pretty good ... but it needs nice fluid lines !!!!

Those pages of age 14 & 17 ... did you also do 'em in 23 minutes ? I hardly believe that ! Spend 2 hours on a page ... build your drawings from 3D forms ... then have fun with the details !

You have much more knowledge than you're showing right now in your drawings ... make it come out !!! ... spend time & effort ... force it to come out !!!
I like the page from age 17 ... it shows you have a really good sense of 3D (the guy saying 'hmm', the guy with the spikes on his head, & the one beneath that, with the brows going in the 'wrong' direction) ... age 14 lower right also has that going on already.

You have more knowledge now than then ... only much less patience and less confidence in yourself ! Change the second, to bring out the first .. and the last will follow !

But you have to do it ! Not me, not someone else !
Me not giving detailed ex's for a while does not mean you can stop doing them !
This time it has to come from you, if you don't try .... how can I/we crit your efforts ? How can you evolve & improve if you don't want to try & fail, try & fail less, try and succeed almost, try & succeed ... IN THAT ORDER (can't do it the other way around !!).
HOW CAN WE CRIT WHAT'S NOT HERE ? HOW CAN YOU IMPROVE IF YOU DON'T OFFER YOUR BEST EFFORTS FOR CRITS ????

In fact, me not giving ex's comes on a good time (even though my reason is so I can draw my ass off right now) ... if I gave more, they would be a repetition of the previous (for instance skulls & planes of the head can be handled in the same way to study them) ... THIS IS THE PERFECT TIME FOR YOU TO TRY ON YOUR OWN !!! TRYING HARD IS THE ONLY WAY TO BEING ABLE TO DO IT RIGHT EVENTUALLY !

DON'T WAIT FOR ME TO COME BACK !!! I can keep talking .... but it'll only result in me getting tired and you not improving ... whatever you haven't understood by now from my explanations ... you'll never get from me talking more ... only by doing & trying it yourself A lOT !

Tigermilk ... circle, rectangle ? I'd substitute those with sphere & box ... better think 3D right away ... instead of going from flatness to depth ... hope you don't mind me saying. :) I agree with everything else you said though !!!

Tigermilk

March 30th, 2005, 07:14 AM

NV, ah maan, i so agree, I totaly ment boxes and tubes not plane circles and squares. ^^
Thx for noticing. :)

NightVision

March 30th, 2005, 08:21 AM

lol, being familiar with your stuff, I already thought you might have meant the volumes !

Pie: link to loomis (http://www.saveloomis.org/)

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 31st, 2005, 02:46 AM

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March 30, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 4 minutes

Thread Total Time: 74 hours & 15 minutes

NightVision

March 31st, 2005, 08:42 AM

Cameron,

Remember not to just copy the plates ... try to learn the planes of the head by heart, and try to rotate them in space ... start with redoing the skull excercises, but with the planes now. Rotate some easier forms in space if rotating is hard ... do the linepractice !

sula_nebouxi

March 31st, 2005, 07:55 PM

If you're serious about drawing, you need to do life studies. And I'm gonna have to agree with everyone else. If you're serious about drawing, having a negative attitude certainly won't help. Even though you're blurring out the text, we know it's still there.

Get some fruit, sit down for 2 hours at least and draw. Patience is key. You need to learn how to draw accurately and doing quick copies of plates will not help.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

March 31st, 2005, 08:25 PM

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March 31, 2005 Total Time: 1 minute

Thread Total Time: 74 hours & 16 minutes

draw

March 31st, 2005, 08:56 PM

NYWK-that latest one is fantastic but why did it take you so long. Love your perceverance.

Have you tried taking your sketchbook outside and just going for it! ie Drawing what you see, I have found that this gives a lot of inspiration.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

April 1st, 2005, 11:50 PM

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April 01, 2005 Total Time: 9 minutes

Thread Total Time: 74 hours & 25 minutes

Piepiepie

April 2nd, 2005, 05:41 AM

why do you keep making these types of posts man

"Ha, I have the opposite problem-I refuse to do nude life drawing and everyone wants me to. My dad was giving me crap about it today actually. "Draw those naked people!" It looks like I will probably be kicked out of The Joe Kubert School pretty soon after I start (I hope they let me stay the first year at least) because of my "no-nudity" rule. Oh well, suicide is always an option.

Well, looks like you too can draw better than me. Everyone can and god do I hate myself.

...and hey, looks like everyone else hates me too! I wish I was dead."

??
i dont understand you.

pvpham

April 2nd, 2005, 06:30 AM

Don't draw for accolades, draw because you enjoy doing so.

To be good at something (whether it be drawing or anything else) it starts from the inside. How much does it mean to you? What are you willing to do for it? If it is something that is really of value to you then your attitudes and behavious would automatically be tuned. If it really means alot to you then you would have an ongoing persistence to do it and would accept the sacrifices of doing so (eg. time). To recap changes on the inside (changes in YOU) make the most significant differences.

Remember Bridgman, loomis, books, forums are just information even without them, if you are persistent it would be highly likely that you would still gain a good level of drawing. Even without that information the sources to that information is still available because it stems from life. So start drawing from life and reconsider drawing nudes.

Now I would like to take a moment to tell myself that.

purb36

April 2nd, 2005, 11:13 AM

it seems that with like, a lot of your sketches from imagination you just sketch and don't really incorporate the skills that youve learned from the studies into the imagination sketches. i think your drawings from imagination would become "better" (whatever your definition of that is) if you started employing the things you learned (setting perspective, putting in the planes and forms of the figure, etc) in your for fun stuff. that being said, do you notice that even when not knowingly doing it (possibly), the proportions of your fun sketches (especially the heads) are becoming more accurate? and how confident you are getting with putting down your lines? they are less wobbly now and more clear and defined with a clear shape. keep up the good work!!! get some kool-aid and draw! OOOOH YEAH! ;)

blankslatejoe

April 2nd, 2005, 03:24 PM

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April 01, 2005 Total Time: 9 minutes

Thread Total Time: 74 hours & 25 minutes

stop drawing with the computer.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

April 3rd, 2005, 05:40 AM

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April 02, 2005 Total Time: 2 minutes

Thread Total Time: 74 hours & 27 minutes

Tigermilk

April 3rd, 2005, 09:06 AM

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Dude, what the hell happend to this shit? Keep on doing these!!
You have to loosen up and sketch more, try to sketch first, fix lines then.. you have to let the comicbook thoughts get out of your mind.

And no more computer! From now on only pencils!

NobodyYouWouldKnow

April 3rd, 2005, 11:10 PM

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April 03, 2005 Total Time: 23 minutes

Thread Total Time: 74 hours & 50 minutes

razuel

April 3rd, 2005, 11:34 PM

I just looked through all of your sketches, didn't read all of the other c&c's, but it seems to me your biggest problem is that you're not drawing what you see. When you were drawing from photo reference, your lines completely went in different ways than that of the photo. I don't know if it's your hand-eye-coordination or what, but just slow down and control your lines; pay close attention as to where they go.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

April 5th, 2005, 10:35 PM

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April 04, 2005 Total Time: 20 minutes

Thread Total Time: 75 hours & 10 minutes

Leonard0 da Vinci

April 5th, 2005, 11:10 PM

I can see a lot of changing comparing the first to the last page on your sketch book.

NobodyYouWouldKnow

April 5th, 2005, 11:52 PM

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April 05, 2005 Total Time: 38 minutes

Thread Total Time: 75 hours & 48 minutes

Dished

April 5th, 2005, 11:56 PM

Hey!! These are getting better!! Keep it up keep it up!! :D

Tigermilk

April 6th, 2005, 06:28 AM

hey, these last ones are great! Try to put even more volume to them now. Thats the next step. I wanna se a little more loose lines to. :)

Awsome, keep it up!

razuel

April 6th, 2005, 08:22 AM

The reason you aren't improving very fast is because you can't draw straight lines. I saw you were working on it, but I think it's less of a matter of practice and more of your thought process. You're spending twenty minutes on these, instead of drawing scribble wobbly looking drawings, spend five minutes on one line if you have to, get the lines straight. Put your pencil on an angel and move your entire hand across the paper, don't move up or down, just straight across.

Eew

April 6th, 2005, 10:16 AM

wel i know why you cant draw well.... simply put because you pretty much hate it, and you dont gonna stop drawing, you want to improve but you work only for like 50% of what and how you suppose to study...you do studies of heads and afterwards you dont use what you just learned from those studies in your imaginery sketches so you just go back to selfpitty and so day after day after day. you realy cant be good at drawing if you hate the process of creating and you just dream of making those awesome drawings like you showed before ... well i think people who's skill level you want pretty much love to sit and draw all day,they love the proces they love the outcome....you realy should go back to doing serious studies like on first pages !

-Eew

marty2

April 6th, 2005, 11:14 PM

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April 06, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 8 minutes

Thread Total Time: 76 hours & 56 minutes

Odds

April 6th, 2005, 11:23 PM

I dig your new name, man!

marty2

April 7th, 2005, 10:19 PM

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April 07, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 40 minutes

Thread Total Time: 78 hours & 36 minutes

MisterJC

April 7th, 2005, 10:49 PM

use what you learn from doing the bridgman studies, things like, form volume, wheight, line, stuff like that, when you do things from your head.

remember the most important thing about doing a study. You're studying. not copying. try to think about the lines the artist is puting down. "why this line instead of that one" blind copying will only get you so far.

and i commend you on your persistance. keep it up.

marty2

April 9th, 2005, 01:11 AM

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April 08, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 25 minutes

Thread Total Time: 80 hours & 1 minute

SeraphSword

April 9th, 2005, 02:12 AM

You know, I'm gonna guess you were banned for a reason. In that spirit:
http://www.seraphsword.com/sketches/stopposting.gif

I know this request will fall flat, but it has to be made.

marty2

April 10th, 2005, 12:48 AM

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April 09, 2005 Total Time: 15 minutes

Thread Total Time: 80 hours & 16 minute

Criminal Components

April 10th, 2005, 03:08 AM

I know your not going to listen to me, just as you havent listened to anyone else here

Sure, you can have a bad outlook on life, cause hey, we all do at some point. But dont draw for people to feel sorry for you, draw as an escape from all the bad shit that your worried about. If you want to draw for attention, or for people to feel sorry for you, then dont. Because shit like "Well you can draw better than me aswell. Everyone hates me, and im not open minded" isnt good. Sure, the no nudity thing is fine, but even if its for religion, you should go draw from life. This is one of the best ways to do this. You have to think open if you want to get any better. Im sure it has been said before, but if you dont want to draw nudes, then go to the park, the local docks, a bus, or anywhere that you can draw stuff in general, and draw it. Its the only way to get better. Create your own way to find out perspective, and your own way to construct figures, if yoru not comftorble drawing someone else's style.

The only reason why your drawings arent at a better level is because you dont want to draw better. For gods sake, and for everyone else here, dont post any more art until you want to draw.

please take this into mind. No-one hates you, you just have the wrong aditude towards art in general.

peace

-CCC

Criminal Components

April 10th, 2005, 03:12 AM

Oh and by the way, if you dont want to draw nudes, think about it.

Im sure at some point in your life, you have seen a woman, or man, naked (in movie or real life).

It didnt kill you did it?

Will it kill you now?

-CCC

marty2

April 11th, 2005, 12:20 AM

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Thread Total Time: 80 hours & 26 minute

marty2

April 11th, 2005, 09:41 PM

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April 11, 2005 Total Time: 10 minutes

Thread Total Time: 80 hours & 36 minute

dedguy

April 11th, 2005, 10:00 PM

this is honestly among the more bizzare things i have seen in my life. the art itself has nothing to do with it... it's the totally one sided written exchange. this guy/gal keeps posting drawings but never posts any text except how long it took to draw. reading though it is totally freaking surreal.

marty2

April 12th, 2005, 11:38 PM

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April 12, 2005 Total Time: 1 hour and 36 minutes

Thread Total Time: 82 hours & 12 minutes

IanE

April 13th, 2005, 12:46 AM

Crazy idea... try getting your hand writing to be great, then draw and see what happens... don't think of the writing as letters though, think of them as shapes and lines... get a good sized sentence and write it until it looks like at least middle school quality writing, no offense.

-sideshowbob-

April 13th, 2005, 06:19 AM

1 give urself more time
2 stay calm
3 be patient

more then 95% here cant draw well.. 55% can draw better then me an u but they are not satisfied with their skills.. like me and like u

so what can we do ? getting mad because we habe no idea how to learn how to draw? i dun thin that works...

------------>>>>>>>>>>> YOU CANT FORCE IT <<<<<<<<<----------------

we all like to draw as fast as possible.. but its not working that way.. and.. another very important thing is ur attitude to the things..
we are just like kids.. but some of us are old and try to act mature for some reasons.. when we learn and the way how we learn is complex science stuff.. but its not working when u head is blocked or when u get mad because u try to force urself into drawing or improving.. u can try this now : say : i want to be an elefant.. <- its not working right ? :P also try -> i wanna become pro NOW <- .. working ? some parts of ur attidute makes it almost impossible to see things clear and to make urself able to learn

when ur head is fucking around with some shits.. hes not able to get other things inside.. .. i mean.. there are things u need to get in ur head in order to .. ******* but the way u do and try is WRONG

we all speak and share and tell u how to do.. but u wont change urself and ur attitude to these things.. it seems u dont want to deal with it.. u dont wanna deal with urself and ur pain and ur life...

.. i think some of the guys here know what pain is and how hard life can be..
since we all wanna do and make something out of us.. *i wanna become a good artists.. what abut u :P *
before we can decide what we want and what we need to get that shit we want.. we have to deal with our selfs.. we have to deal with the pain we felt and we will feel thru life we have to deal with our own strengh and weaknesses we have to pay more attention to our wishes instead of paying attention to stuff we dont want.. we dont like..we dont want to deal with...otherwise we never reach our goals.. no dream come thru ..

u may never reach ur goal.. but its possible for u and for us.. but there is a price we have to pay in order to get there... thats how it works.. we always have to sacrifice things to get other things... sometimes the price is very high and sometimes not.. but we all have to deal with ourselfs and our problems..

i really prefere to let dreams come thru and paying any price...
i got depressed too.. for some years.. i cried so much.. and used drugs (no medications) played 2 much computer games :dur: ..was unable to do anything.. no work .. no friends.. just me and ma pain ... that was pain i never wanan feel again.. but its still possible to get back there.. since i realiced what this is about i said to me : wtf is this.. this cant be u thats not ma real self.. since that day i decided to find ma tru self .. which is not weak and not depressed.. i stoped identifying myself with my negativ thinking and negativ experience.. i tricked ma own mind... i had to trick myself.. to become the one i am.. otehrwise i would still be depressed.. i would be unable to deal with my past.. and my future.. with my pain and my memorys.. my love and my weaknesses..
we are the one who can decide what shit we use to identify with ourselfs
we decide what and how we want to be... we just need to deal with it somehow

there are still lotsa things in my live i may dont like.. but .. i dont care because i just wanna draw.. i dont wanna fuck around because of stupid things and other problems i have.. the only thing i need to help myself is to get my lazy ass up and draw.. draw draw draw.. we set our priorities.. and mine are.. to change myself in order to get pro at drawing.. the rest does not matters and if i have to do things i dont wanna do.. i learn how to deal with them and how to keep me doing my stuff ..

just keep drawing and posting but be patient
stop listening to ur head.. but listen to ur heart telling u to draw draw draw...
ur head and ur negativ stuff u think about prevents urself from learning and improving - thers no neuronal structure u can use to learn.. all of them are buys to keep ur negative thoughts computed..

ma 236845 cents :^^;: :^^: :^^;:

i know u can deal with it and then u learn and become pro.. may take some years.. but dude hahaha... thats how it works.. u cant force it.. and yea.. ma improvement goes slowly but constancly.. and when i dont improve for 3 weeks.. its OK because i know i just need this to impove.. when i fuck around because of this.. i may never improve because ma head is blocked with bullshit

:painting:

cya at msn !

thx bob

sorry 4 ma bad english :nohope: >:{ :nohope: