James sf ws costume/character design

[Leopoldo]

Does anyone have photos of the screen when James showed his work during his first session. I'm especially interested to see his layup for the tattoo thing and costumes and the same character over and over again. You who were there know what I mean.

Plz post em or pm me.

James, if you read this, perhaps you could post some of your samples from that first costume/character design. That stuff is such nice inspiration.
Thanks so much, need to jog my memory.
Leopoldo

[Layil]

Hi Leo

If i recall correctly, he asked us not to take pics of that stuff cause it was all property of them starwars people or something. I could be wrong....

[larylich]

Yep, no photos were allowed due to copywrite issues.

[Rkhon]

Yeah I'm sure people have photos.

But Mr. Zhang politely asked us not to use them anywhere. And I'm all for that.

[Leopoldo]

So now we know.

I'd prefer to see lectures that are using samples that we can document so we remember. I'm there to learn so I'm more interested to see how people work and the reasoning behind their process than to see what totally awesome top secret stuff they're working on. I'm disappointed because my memory is fading... I got the flu and haven't had the energy yet to recap my notes.

After all, the workshops are for learning, not for show and tell.

Workshop management, next time please advice your most excellent speakers to only use samples that are cleared for documentation for private use (ie learning).

Thank you so much,
Leopoldo

[Jason Manley]

sheesh....

the instructors will teach and show as they see fit.

obviously you liked what he did enough to want to own it. rather than complain, you could start a discussion to see who remembers what happened and what was said if its not in your notes.


james techniques and such are his own proprietary information. he shared what he does and hopefully that is enough to inspire you. obviously it was. that is all i can ask for. I prefer to have the instructors teach and share what they have and what they want to do. we are fortunate that they made the time to come down. they are as busy as any one can be and i really am happy with how giving they all were....including mr zhang.

thanks james!!

jason

[Leopoldo]

If I came across whining it surely wasn't meant that way.

Text based mediums have a way of reading sourly. Sry dude.

Excellent workshop of course, and james, great job. Thank you so much.

Anyone write down his labeling for production files (approved, final, roughs etc.)

James (and you too Jason), what system do you have for tracking the design of one character through the 2d preproduction phase?
name_concept_1, name_final, name_colors, name_turnaround? version numbers? creation dates?

Cheers,
Leopoldo

[BMunchausen]

While I thoroughly enjoyed James's talk, and the privilege to see his work, I agree in a general way, with Leo's sentiment that more information should've been conveyed at the workshop.

James's talk was one of the most informative, as was the talk about color theory by Jason Manley and Ron Lemen (really fascinating! I learned some valuable stuff about color mixing during that), and the last day's talk by Jason Manley and Puddnhead about the business of concept art and how they got where they are today - but I found a large portion of the presenters' demos to be sadly thin, information-wise.

Part of the problem was the venue itself - as in, no one who wasn't right behind the speaker could hear what he was saying. Actually, aside from the audio, there were problems with the format of the workshop as a whole. I really enjoyed meeting many people from many different disciplines, all of whom were as talented as they were generous, and it was invaluable that the event gave people an opportunity to spot-interview with all the game industry recruiters - those were the most positive aspects of the workshop, in my view. While I didn't see a feedback thread on the workshop, I'm going to avail myself of this thread to outline my reasons for disappointment regarding it, in the interest of making the next event even stronger.

1) It wasn't set up for communicating well with that many people. The acoustics eveywhere were atrocious, (worse in the downstairs of course) and it would've been really helpful when someone was doing a drawing or painting demo in the upstairs room, for a camera to have been set up on the work so everyone in the room could see it evolve.

2) Content - It would've been great to have the artists talking more about their process as they worked, rather than having the audience just watch them. There were some presenters who did this, but many who did not. There's a lot to be learned from seeing a master at work - but there's even more to be learned from hearing the rationale behind his approach.

3) Lack of organization. It sucked to be left waiting in the cold and the rain because the organizers didn't come early enough (more than one day) to make sure the doors were open for the attendees. It also wasn't too cool to have to wait one to two hours for the presentations to begin every day, as easels and/or lights and other equipment were set up, then to have little way of knowing who was speaking where or when. Perhaps there were some things beyond the organizers' control in regard to the setup??

4) Value - $600 is a lot for some people to come up with, and in order to seem like it's a professional event, and to give the attendees good value, the workshop should offer more to its attendees than what often amounted to an open drawing session you could find just about anywhere for $15. Perhaps there should be a sliding scale based on various levels of informational access like there is for other conferences like E3 or GDC; if you just want to schmooze with other members of the art community, you pay a low base rate. If you want to hear talks or see demos by the professionals, you pay more, yeah?

I don't want to seem completely negative here...on the plus side, I must say that all the presenters were very approachable and good about answering questions and offering critiques one on one, but I think the workshop would be much more worth the entrance fee if more thought was put into the content of the presentations.

Suggestions? Well, maybe the presenters could have exercises for attendees to participate in, or demonstrate specific principles or techniques or bring slides of the artists who've influenced them and talk about what they've learned from those artists. I would've loved to see more of that in the traditional arena.

Not sure anyone posting here will care to admit their frustration about the things I've outlined above, but there were plenty of folks I spoke to in person at the event, who were voicing these same concerns, and I thought it might be useful for you guys when organizing your next workshop. Thanks to Manley and Massive Black for taking the time to hold the workshop and bring to us all those heavy-hitters, and thanks for giving us a forum to offer (hopefully constructive) feedback. I appreciate you listening.

Respectfully yours,
The Baron

[Leopoldo]

Yeah, and also considering people came from Europe as well. That's alot of money. I've been sick for a week now, unable to work. I don't know if it was the wait in the rain or the lower gallery floor that was so cold. I feel so sorry for Android, having to work in that enviroment, as ill as he was. Dude, your my hero.

Then again it's cool that it's arranged at all. I wouldn't know half the stuff I do if it wasn't for these workshops.
/L

[Groover McNab]

edited

[fukifino]

I dunno Groover...those 4 posts of his...he's obviously a long time member of this community and knows exactly what's going on here! :dad:

[Jason Manley]

mr johnson.....thanks for the input. we are all aware of the things you mentioned. we did our best. that is all we could do. we will take what we learned from this workshop and apply it to the next if we ever do another one.
at this point, we are aware of what went right and what went wrong with the workshops. we will improve with each passing event.

some presentations were meant to be just exposure to how instructors work. the accoustics were not great at that event space and so many just chose to paint. personally i yelled during color theory until my voice disappeared. we did what we could.

i think that many peoples lives were changed for the better from this event. mine was. i have never seen people smile for that long before. it was like disneyland for artists. considering that art school costs a hundred thousand dollars and one course at gnomon is well over a grand, we did pretty good for the cost vs what people got out of the event.

bioware has kindly offered to assist us with the organization and IT stuff for the next event. that is the kind of help we need. we are doing the best we can. if people want perfection they will have to go elsewhere. the workshops will never be perfect. it is an event for artists run by artists. it will always have a funky way about it in both the good and bad.

as far as moneys worth...id have paid six hundred bucks just to see assael paint...let alone justin sweet, puddnhead, wes9000, and the others. maybe thats just me.



jason

[poopinmymouth]

While I would love to see all of munchausens points met, I think its the nature of the beast. If you were to arrange all these points out, you would miss alot of the awesome that the workshop involves.

The best artists are many times poor teachers. It takes practice and effort to be a good teacher and many artists put all their time into their work. I would rather see an awesome artist work, than a so so artist elaborate on his process. If you insisted that every artist who demo'ed had an accompanying lecture, alot of the guys who turned out probably wouldn't have. and some people that wouldn't be worth paying to see probably would have.

The whole thing is more of a get together of mutual friends to learn and have fun. Its not a class, its a short concentrated workshop. You will learn a ton, but its not gonna be spoon fed to you. There are things that could be improved, but trust me when I say they learned a ton from Austin and it was much better organized and layed out. I garantee the next will be even better.

With any bit of research, I am sure you could have found out that it wasn't going to be structured to all hell. It was a loose exchange of ideas and techniques. I would rather have these workshops in their current form, than to see the awesomeness organized right out the window.

[Jason Manley]

Yeah, and also considering people came from Europe as well. That's alot of money. I've been sick for a week now, unable to work. I don't know if it was the wait in the rain or the lower gallery floor that was so cold. I feel so sorry for Android, having to work in that enviroment, as ill as he was. Dude, your my hero.

Then again it's cool that it's arranged at all. I wouldn't know half the stuff I do if it wasn't for these workshops.
/L

we cant control the weather...if we could, the past two workshops would have been heaven. the good always comes with the bad. we all did what we could. if you think it was too expensive then you dont have to attend. tell me you wouldnt have paid that same amount just to meet with the companies that attended..

always the same...its too hot...its too cold...its too wet....it was the best, it was inspiring...it changed my life.....every workshop gets the same kind of reviews....each one has improved. we are doing our best.

if the workshop gave you positive results..inspired you...taught you things you could have learned nowhere else....then be happy about it. griping about the temperature in the room does nothing to make people better, happy, or inspired.


jason

[jetpack42]

I'll throw in my two cents. Both sides here make valid points. A little bit of a smoother organization (as in, artists having the equipment set up, or having the equipment to start) in a smoother manner would have been nice. Though, it didn't really bother me.

I enjoyed the weather both times. Heat or rain, they made each workshop memorable.

Let me first say, I really enjoyed and learned alot at this workshop. Instruction may not be at its finest during every demo (it sure was on a few at least), but the information is there for those willing to ask for it and pay attention.

Now, I realize what I am about to type is ultimately a weird sort of paradox. These events are all about exposing artists to each other, sharing ideas, information, inspiration...etc. Obviously, the best way to get the message out, get the skills out, is to invite as many people as possible. However, I felt like Austin had twice the energy, inspiration, and intimacy as the SF workshop had. I'm a tall guy with 20/20 vision, and I even struggled several times a day to see what was going on. And watch Foster paint? I didn't know ahead of time, so forget about it. Really, watching somebody paint/draw from further away then say, 20-25 feet, is difficult. Placing the artists up on stage made it difficult for anybody to get near enough to see much...while it broadened the ability of everyone to loosely grasp what the artist was doing, only 5 people could be near enough to see what was going on (what with the pillars and the chairs). The layout of the room could have been a little better to allow better walking, and more spread out/accessible viewing. Also, all the room seperation in Austin made it easier to hear what was going on in each area easier, which is a bonus.


This is the fundamental paradox; how small/cozy can you make the workshop, while allowing alot of people to participate and learn and turning a profit at the same time?? Personally I feel a crowd about half the size of SF is ideal...but I'm a spectacular Armchair General.

HUGE THANKS to all the instructors for being so congenial; willing to speak and answer questions. And thanks to everyone for organizing. Its a big task, and I appreciated it.

SF was dope. I learned alot, had a great time, and felt it was well well worth my while (and money). But there was something magical about Austin, the intensity and closeness. I'd do it over again in a heartbeat, even if it was hotter and no chairs or AC.

[Leopoldo]

ratatouille – did you take any photos from James session(s)?

Sry 4 this folks. I'm still sick with the flu, including a fever and very little sleep and jet lag and I'm trying to save my notes. Can't find my photos from james.

Some of you my know of my notes from Amsterdam which I shared freely. I was hoping to post my notes on san fran but the rates things are going I'm loosing days of valuable memory and energy.

Again – does anyone have pics from james session? Is there copyright issues or not?

Thank you so much and take the workshop debate somewhere else.
I'm not interested in being on the receiving end of Jason's temper.
Leopoldo

[Art_Addict]

I didn't attend the workshop in San Fran but went to the one in Amsterdam.
I think it's good to be observative and trying to see things that can be improved for a ' possible' next workshop.

HOWEVER, Its always much easier to complain about something after it was done especially if you weren't involved in the actual organizing itself !!!!

Personally i don't think its that much money considering the amount of info and inspiration you propably got! I know I learned more on the workshop in Amsterdam then in 2 years of school!

Jeez , Please try to see more of the positive ( which can't be that difficult ) through ' what could have been done better' because some people here might be stepping on some organisers toes maybe, preventing an other workshop to occur and i'dd hate to see that happen!!

Jason , thank you for the time, patience and effort put in to those workshops.
I really hope you still see more of these in the future :)

Tom

[Ismail]

Hope I spelled that right. :)
I had a feeling with so many people attending the workshop, there would be trouble seeing. I highly recommend bringing Binoculars for next time. (I carry mine everyday) :) And definitely DON'T BE AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS!!!. I had a one on one meeting with Doug Chiang (even though the room was half full) and ended up asking the majority of questions. :)
Great points on the pros and cons of the workshop...unfortunately I couldn't leave work to attend, nonetheless, Jason makes a good point, "If it's too expensive...you don't always have to spend the money."
There's plenty of information on the messageboards to application and theory from the artists that post, and in regards to books (the library. ;) and the Gnomon dvd's are excellent resources aswell, and lest we forget www.fineart.sk. :) Those Loomis books, great resource.
Acquire the knowledge and apply it. :)

[BMunchausen]

Thank you for your response, Mr. Manley. I appreciate it.

As far as comparing the cost to art school, I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, considering that that sort of educational venture is undertaken in the interest of some sort of long term instruction as well as in the end, implied, accredited documentation of a certain level of skill. Not exactly the same as 4 days' time conversing with admittedly, very talented folks. I think your workshop price is more than fair - however, I would assume you'd be interested in making it as worthwhile as possible to all the attendees, so that they want to tell others about it, helping it to grow even bigger and more successful.

I believe I made it plain that I thought there were indeed valuable talks at the workshop - the major problem was the choice of venue, which is easily solved. In no way did I imply that "perfection" was expected - I merely offered up suggestions for improvement, assuming in good faith, that the organizers were inclined to accept well-meaning feedback.

Thanks again for taking the time to read my feedback and respond and best of luck with the next workshop!

[Leopoldo]

I repeat -

I'm only interested in finding photos from james session. If you have any plz pm me.

Sry for starting this thread jason. No hard feelings. I would never start a complaint thread about the sf ws.

/L

[silentbrain]

I thought the workshop was pretty damn cool this year, cold in fact. I mean seriously, where were the posters with "I SURVIVED THE COLD" on them, with "COLD" in giant, blue letters?! It would have gone perfectly with the poster from Austin! :teeth: (well, okay, maybe I'm still reliving how I got soaked by hail)

But seriously, James did make a pretty good panel, and the only reason he couldn't give a demo was because he couldn't get access to a wacom. His character sheets for Gladiator (was that it? I cannot remember) covered different cultures as well as different styles. I still remember his tip about showing femininity (?) in a character, the ratio of shoulder width to hip width. (been trying to figure out that problem for ages)

Overall I wasn't disappointed... sure acoustics were pretty bad, but not so bad when sitting in front of the speakers. Got to see a lot of cool stuff and got seriously kicked in the butt about how far I have to go before I'm employable. I know other people came to the workshop for different reasons and facing different obstacles, but I feel I got what I paid for.

As a Calfornian and former SF resident though, I have to apologize to out-of-towners about the cold, rain, and hail. And the parking rates.

[Helium Macaroni]

and the only reason he couldn't give a demo was because he couldn't get access to a wacom.

Yeah, uh, that was kinda odd considering it was an event hosted by artists.. many of whom paint digitally.

[Jason Manley]

well next time perhaps the conceptart.org crowd can NOT STEAL THE WACOM PENS.

:)

last time we lost two digital cams...this time we lost a slew of wacom pens.

perhaps we need security by any valuable item.


j

[JoshuaTheJames]

Are you serious Jason. I'm sorry.

That's F'ing insane.


-JtJ

[silentbrain]

Good lord, those things are like 50-70 bucks....
I didn't see the guy with the Cintiq this year, I guess it's a good thing, in this case...
Bummer, Jason. :(

[Helium Macaroni]

Whoa, steeling is lame. Those bastards need a good after school special.

However, I do also remember that one or more of the computers didn't have Wacom drivers either.. hee hee.. just defending my point. Tou'che!

[jetpack42]

I think I saw some bastard slipping Wacom drivers into his backpack....

[Jason Manley]

lol

the driver prob was a drag....however, it led to bioware offering to sponsor the next workshop we do. they are going to take care of all the tech stuff for us on a volunteer/sponsor basis. at least the probs lead to better solutions. im stoked about it.

j

[steak-tron]

c'mon JetPack, fess up. I found all those drivers in your suitcase before you left :wink:

Jason: It's good to hear you refer to the another workshop, maybe I can be the first or second to sign up this time :)

[Dimitih]

I might be part of the older crowd, but I have to say I paid twice as much for not even a tenth of information which I got at the workshop. Let me put it this way - the morning of the fourth day when artist promotion strategies were discussed, alone was easily worth 600 bucks (if not more)! Several extremely successful artists shared their personal methods of success. Ask any businessman to do the same and you will be laughed at. Those people generously told everyone how to succeed in their own industry. Who in their right mind can complain about the price of that!?

As for organization, yes, it was hard to hear at times what the instructor was saying, but if you thought it was important to hear what they had to say, why weren't you sitting next to them? In most cases showing up 10 minutes before the presentation allowed you to sit right next to the instructor and hear and see everything they were doing and saying? Maybe a bit unfair to the people in the back rows, but, hey, life is tough - if you really want something, sometimes you gotta put a little extra effort into it.


And, last but not least, this whole event was organized by working artists. Not by some guys in charge of corporate events (as is the case with GDC or E3), but by people who actually have better things to do in life than give away their hard earned knowledge and share their exceptional talent.

Those who still think that they didn't get exactly what 600 bucks entitled them to, think about it this way: it's a lot of money for an art class, but it's practically a free give away when you think of how many years of individual effort through trial and error were delivered to all of us in a matter of a few days.

I might sound a bit harsh here, but hearing people complain about minor glitches and the price of admission got me very upset.

Hats off to all those who made this event possible and I hope that a few discontented remarks won't deter you from doing your great work,

- Dmitri

[Dan.v.D.]

Does anyone have photos of the screen when James showed his work during his first session?


Anyone write down his labeling for production files (approved, final, roughs etc.)?

Again – does anyone have pics from james session? Is there copyright issues or not?


I'm only interested in finding photos from james session. If you have any plz pm me.


well it´s totally normal that you can´t please everyone. but i think when you make at least 50% of the attendees visit multiple workshops, there certainly is something worth the tuition. leopoldo for example attended three of 'em.

:perv:

[Leopoldo]

?

No , I just attended the one on costume design, but I didn't get any photos :(

I never said anything about not getting my monies worth (and i flew from Europe like a lot of other people). Stop putting words in my mouth Dan.v.d.

I just asked if anyone took any pictures of James session.

No photos anyone? Pleeeaaaassseeee? With suger on top :)

[Dan.v.D.]

i was just summing up this thread.
you asked for photos and the answer to that simple question was a discussion about the price of the workshop and stuff.
and with 3 workshops i meant a'dam, berlin and san francisco.
that pretty much shows that you are absolutely willing to pay the fees,
and were just worried about not totally recalling some info given there.

"Text based mediums have a way of reading sourly. Sry dude."


;)

[Leopoldo]

Cool, I hear ya :)

Definately worth it.

/L

[Red_Rook]

well next time perhaps the conceptart.org crowd can NOT STEAL THE WACOM PENS.


haha are you serious, hehe maybe you should check coro's pockets cause he was wonderin around with like a dozen of em at one stage i think ;)

[Jason Manley]

lol...i did ask him when i saw them..i was like do you got my pen man? he says no...in fact they were the ones brought to us from activision. mucho thanks to shaba games for lending the puters and such.


j

[Red_Rook]

haha, yea i dunno. Yea acctually thanks to everyone who made it possible i thought it was totally worth every penny. And still think its worth alot more :) :confident