Problem with heads

[Vangou]

When I draw a character, full body. I sketch the whole thing pretty fast with loose lines, really rough. I dont really feel comfortable with making the head an oval-shaped ball with horisontal guidelines for the eyes and a vertical line across the middle of the chin and the forehead. Im having trouble with getting that head/face look good when detailing my rough piece afterwards, It just comes out rather stiff, like a mannequin doll or whatever. If I dont do it like this it gets kinda off, but Im still not comfortable with it. Should I learn to like the method or is there any other way? Is it good to draw all the outer shapes of the head(Cheek-bones, eyeholes and stuff like that) right from the start and try to get it right?
This is especially an issue when drawing bigger. When the head itself covers more than a 10cm x 10cm square or so on the paper. Should a big oval with guidelines be used even here?

Thanks for any responses, and please dont comment on any grammar mistakes or the like. I hardly ever have to write in english :p .

[teyekanik]

show some examples and I will try to help out as best I can.

[Vangou]

Some examples.. Well I dont have a scanner unfortunately. But I can maybe try to take some snaps with my webcam later today(I live in the GMT+1 timezone) and try to show what I mean. Thanks for offering to help =) .

[dogfood]

Lately, when drawing the figure, I will just use a cylinder to represent the head until I decide to work on it, then I will sometimes lay in the eye line to establish the angles, then put a couple small circles (about the size of the irises) and flesh in the nose and mouth from there.

I got really tired of the oval. It seemed too constrictive.

[Vangou]

I got really tired of the oval. It seemed too constrictive.

Yes I see what you mean with the oval being alittle constrictive. A cylinder seems like a strange way of beginning a head with though, to me. Do you just use it to mark the heads perspective or do you build the shape of the head with the cylinder as a starting point?

[dogfood]

I use it as a placeholder initially, for size, then put in the shape and aspect later. If I get the chance, I'll work up an example.

[teyekanik]

well.. the head can really be split into a box.. um.. I am working up a tutorial for it... here's the link.. it's not done but it should give you a start.. Go buy a scanner dude :) Tutorial (http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27537)

[Vangou]

Thanx guys =).
teyekanik: That tutorial looks cool. I just took a brief look and it seems to make sense. I read about a similar method making a 3D box to get the angle right and then build the head inside of it in a 'draw faces-book' I have, but isnt that alot of work to do for every character you draw? Like I said I havent gone through the tutorial so that might be irrelevant anyways =D .
And yeh, I really should go buy myself a scanner :p .

[teyekanik]

it might seem slow at first.. but if you apply the principles in the start and practice alot then you'll speed up your process naturally.... Ya, I guess it is alot of work but its worth it if it makes your heads look "right" isnt it?

[faux]

One of the best artists of anatomy (current day) that I have recently found, is this site's Mentler. He's got a site with a tutorial.

[dogfood]

I guess the advantage I find with this method is that I'm not tied to one absolute head position. While I try to be very deliberate about what I draw, I sometimes discover a better position after I've tied the elements together. Sometimes the picture cries out for a slight change (sometimes a large one) and if I've already laid out my oval (or block), I will generally either follow it (with less spontaneous results), erase and do it over and over, or make slight modifications that tend to destroy the intially good proprtions. This method also requires that you know what things look like and where they go (which I often fail at), but the more you do it and get honest crits on your work (especially if they are from yourself), the easier and more freeing it is.

Hope this helps.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/dogfood411/Smiley.jpg

[Noc]

well I personally use the circle, half circle method that I believe you are talking about, vilpu really describes how to properly do it well and maybe I Can help shine some light on it for you.

a few things you have to do when drawing this is be sure to make the guidlines draw through the whole shape. its hard to explain in words, but for instance make a circle for the head, the eye line will be a oval line going around the circle near the bottom, draw through all the way like you were drawing on a 3d sphere.

the jaw line is basically a half circle below that first circle. and you use the middle guilde line like the first one I told you about and split the head in half with proper perspective. this is where the box technique comes in handy.

usually the box technique is used for perspective. it works great to put in a body shape once u get the intitial shape of what you are making, that way if used with proper perspective u can make sure all your shapes are lined up properly and all your eyes, nose, etc are lined up as well.

I really suggest just taking more time with this technique, it is very popular technique and rightfully so, almost any animator you talk to knows this and uses it because you can produce fast results and the more you use it the more you can just visulize the initial drawing and sooner or later you use this less and less.

go pick up vilppu's drawing manual, it is a great book and will really help you.

[Vangou]

Wow dudes u rule! Really put time into helping others at this site!

Dogfood: That seems like a very good and fast method if u know 'what things look like and where they go' like you said. I will definately try practice it when drawing characters from 'easier' angles. Awesome that you brought an examle with that cowboy, really helped show what you'retalking about. Wasnt 100% about how u meant at first =D .

Noc: I see what you mean, and when I think about it it must be a really certain way to be sure everything is where its supposed to be and so. As I explained earlier I was a little sceptical against the idea at first but I must say the method should really have come in handy in some of my latest works in my sketchbook! For example drawing a person slightly from below. I find it really hard to get the face right from there.
And. I hope I can find that Vilppu book somewhere here. I suppose its not to be found translated into swedish :p .

Thank you all for the tips, I will make great use of them, really!

[Noc]

o come on, your swedish you speak like 5 languages=p haha

here are some links for vilpu's stuff

The books, start off with the vilpu drawing manual.
http://www.awn.com/awnstore/vilppu/
http://www.vilppustudio.com/books.htm

here is another link that shows his stuff.

http://www.awn.com/mag/issue3.3/3.3pages/3.3vilppudrawing.html

[fredflickstone]

Well, now before you all get into a wierd tangent about what shape to really start with in your drawing, remember something, if you dont know how to read, what do you have to do? LEarn your ABC's...writing, same thing...art is no different. It has its ABC's also. These shapes and cross hairs you are referring to are the ABC's of art, without them there really is no other method to how to draw the picture and no other method to make the picture look and feel not stiff...

I have been teaching for 10 years, studying the figure for over 14, and I can say, if it werent for those ovals, cylinders or cube like forms to start those heads, I would still be trying to figure it out. Now, I dont feel troubled to start with an eye since there is a means to back it all up if I screw it up...rules...they are there, they become tools, when you can finally take them and let them go, use them when you flail or fail, then let em go again so you can again proceed onto the rest of the image.

Learn to use those cylinders and spheres, and dont let em go. Download the loomis books and study the heck out of them. DOnt stop drawing. The mileage is what helps you gain, not the system of drawing you learn. The more you draw, the easier it gets...

Talk with ya again soon.

ROn

[Vangou]

Noc: Thanx for the links =D . I will certanely get the book eventually, when Im not broke.

Fredflickstone: You've been teaching for 10 years and have studied the figure for over 14 years(Thats my ages minus two years. Shite.). That means I'd listen to anything you say.
I've read your post and I will remember what I learned from it.
Thank you!