Charcoal -getting that really clean, smooth look...

[Tjendol]

I've been drawing with charcoal for a while now and I must say I like it a lot.

I have a question though. Up till now I've smudged with my hands and a piece of cloth. I'm not really happy with the results it gives though. It usually whipes off most of your charcoal. It's hard for me to create good looking value transitions.

Is it possible to use a smudge stick with charcoal to create really smooth planes?

Also, how do you experienced charcoal users :) create highlights? Do you just use the color of the paper (if it's white) or do you just smudge the whole drawing and erase out the highlights with a kneaded eraser?

That's it for now...thanks in advance for the feedback :)

[critchelow]

If you are wanting to create smooth transitions in value that look realistic, then you aren't going to want to just "smudge" or wipe it. When I work with charcoal the only reason I use a blending tool is to create an even area of tone for a given shape. Once I get the value correct then I work the edges to give the object form. As far as creating highlights, it just depends on how you are working. You can erase out areas if your working on white paper. Usually I don't erase out my highlights, but do use the eraser to sculpt them a little more exactly at the edges.

[Tjendol]

Thnx for the reply.
Can you tell me what blending tools you use? Or do you have some work to illustrate what you mean?

If there's anybody with a different approach, I'd like to hear it as well.

[Ra Havok]

Charcoal is cool, but -obviously- it's not as easy to control as pencil.

For getting gradual tranitions: I start by going over an area with a charcoal stick gradually. This means either first pressing down the stick lightly, then with more force to get it to be darker. Or, just leaving more space between the strokes. But the first way is the best one. Then, I smudge with my fingers. A lot of the charcoal goes away, but then I repeat the process, and I get the results I want. (sometimes, I have to go over the dark areas again).

For getting highlights, I use a pointy eraser. I think that's the most economic way.

[Tjendol]

Thnx, I'm gonna try your approach in the next drawing. Hopefully I can show it soon :)

[Zarathustra]

I've always liked rough and dirty charcoal techniques, but I think you could adopt an experiment I tried to get the smooth finish you're looking for - grind down vine charcoal into a powder and apply with a brush. I've a couple of free demo's here - http://www.artgraphica.net/free-art-lessons/index.htm

[AdamBlack]

I'd like to throw in a random suggestion.

From my own works with charcoal (and pencils), I find that a nice cotton-blended paper gives great results. I'm fortunate enough to have a paper specialty shop in my town; if you have one where you live, I'd definitely give them a look.

Any paper with cotton woven in will give you some really nice-looking art.

Adam

[DaddyJama]

I just started trying to mix charcoal and pencil..first thing first I noticed one of the most important things to texture is the type of paper to use. I used a poster board for this pic and i think it came out pretty smooth. My blending tools, i used a chamois and a piece of felt...shit i tried to post an attachemnet but i can't so here ya go
http://artpapa.com/artforum/viewtopic.php?p=46790&highlight=#46790

also..theres vine and willow charcoal..vine tends to be softer but does not get as dark..the back ground of sex and candi was vine..the face was pencil/charcoal.
hope it helps

[DaddyJama]

woops...vine is willow, i meant vine and compressed are the types
-Bryan A.

[MadSamoan]

Tjendol,

I think using brushes (hog bristle) to get the gradual transitions you're looking for will be the answer, either with charcoal powder or in conjunction with charcoal pencils and vine charcoal. A chamois is also helpful and alot softer than a plain cloth. To get the specular highlights requires careful use of a kneaded eraser and you can also try harder erasers, like a pink eraser, a white vinyl eraser, or the really hard typewriter erasers.

You can get gradual transitions with a charcoal pencil alone without smudging, but it will require you to go into the splotchy areas with the tip of a sharp charcoal pencil and delicately fill in the areas to blend in. That's actually how alot of charcoal drawings that have large areas of tone are done. It's very time consuming and people don't realize how much time goes into just making a flat tone look flat.

Another tip in regards to using a kneaded eraser is rather than just shaping it into a cone like shape, you can try thinking of it as a moldable brush. You can shape the tip into a flat brush-like chisel shape and handle it like a paint brush tip and adjust the size as you need it.

Here's an example of a drawing that uses some of these methods.

http://www.ryanwurmser.com/galleries/figures/The-Bird-Man.jpg

[ArlandoBattle]

Madsomoan --
very nice

Hmm Charcoal
Ive been using this for two weeks straight here my two cents.

First off dont always use your hands just do some experiments for example: gather up all kind of different textured objects like (paper , toothbrush bristles, plastic ) stuff like that next make some splotches of charcoal on a sheet of paper and rub it with theese different objects and try to see how the textures change now make another splotch get your finger and rub it youll see how it looks differently. To me it seems sort of soupy and oily.. Ive looked over my other classmates works and their portraits all seem kind of soupy like not real in a way so just experiment and the oil off your hand can really in my opinion ruin good work. Also experiment with your eraser and it can create some wicked negative space. Kneaded erasers dont seem to be friendly but, they're effective when wanting to just make a litttle highlit not a major. Also the Fabre Castell dust free eraser seemed to get the job done.
Btw I used different kind of charcoals
the willow vine charcoal to me is sort of cheap and takes forever to to really get a solid value but its good for mid values
the pencil type charcoal 6B was really good I used this mostly.
I used this other pencil type I think it was a charcoal marker type of thing it was very good for getting the dark values


-also when working in charcoal dont be afraid to gooo dark i see alot of people just play with middle values and just about it and their work just endsup looking all flat
-lastly experiment try to create like different feels using textures like a slimy feel, hairy feel, smooth feel


Hope this helps :D

[Tjendol]

Wow...that definitely helps!!

Thank you guys so much for the invaluable feedback.
I'm just starting to experiment with charcoal (some weeks now) and this is really gonna help me out a lot.

Btw: the bald man with the beard is really nice. It's like a photo when you focus just on the face and not the faded edges, although that gives it a nice touch as well.

Thanks again people..this has become a useful thread for charcoal starters and maybe even more experienced users to share different techniques.

Cheers!

P.s. keep dropping your artwork in this thread to illustrate what you mean...I love to see what people create. Maybe it's an idea to start sorted medium threads, i believe they can be very functional.

[guggemmaneuver]

granted, i don't have anything up right now so i hope this doesn't ring too hollow.
Here's a good way to work that I've found: Instead of buying the stumps that are commercially available at art supply stores, pick up styrofoam boxes or even the molded paperboard like a bunch of drinks would come in from a fast food restaurant. The great thing about using this material is that it is FREE, and you can actually kind of make your own tools that work well for you. As far as your charcoals are concerned, make sure the compressed version that you pick is the square stickish black pastel kind. There is a commercially available one that is round and has a cooler (much lighter than the square black compressed) kind of tone that i don't like as much.

So, rough in your gesture with willow, working it up to 3 dimmensional solids with them. Don't worry about smudging anything just yet... once you are comfortable that you've given all the depth that you can with the vine, begin to work in the feintest hint of your darker compressed charcoal--that ISHT is S T R O N G! be sure to be conservative with your application, though not affraid of laying down some black if you need to. slapping on a big solid black area is necessary sometimes, and will create some depth. USE DISCRETION WITH THIS STUFF! it's potenttially mark makingly potential must be kept in check. I've ruined otherwise good several nice drawings just by putting in the BIG A$$ BLACK. B

jb

[NoSeRider]

http://www.wattsatelier.com/Images/IMAGES/erik_gist_hfqs_W05_web.jpg

http://www.wattsatelier.com/home.html

These guys are using charcoal [pencils], charcoal pencils.....not charcoal sticks....pencils with charcoal.

However, Watts Atelier emphasizes holding your charcoal pencil differently then when you hold a regular pencil to write with, so there's still a technique involved.

They emphasize Derwent Charcoal Pencils:
http://www.jerrysartarama.com/images/Category/PencilLeadGraphite/DerwentCharcoalPencils.jpg

[tinyhands]

madsomoan forgot to mention that that drawing is Ryan Wurmsers..... heh... no worries though.

madsomoan, did you study, or currently studying at the california art institute? I checked out your site at it has the reilly "look" to it. If you did/are, did you get to study with Ryan or Jeremy? I heard the schools kinda dropped of a little since they stopped teaching. But a friend told me that glen orbik is teaching again so who knows. If you have studied with ryan, do you know if he did use bristle brushes and powered charcoal to get those nice feathered edges? Was he still using smooth newsprint or a different kinda paper? Sorry for all the questions, but I was always curious how those guys got that "schmid" look their charcoals. Any info would be great. Thanks.

-tiny

[.:pitseleh:.]

What I do is use q-tips for shading, which I think gives more control (and less potential oils and prints) than using my fingers. Apart from the standard q-tips, you can also go to a cosmetics store or something and get the ones that are used for eye-make-up. Those are pointed on one end, for those hard to reach places. Usually I leave room for highlights, but sometimes I use a soft angle chisel (don't remember the make, haven't got it here) to lighten the levels in some places. I sharpen my charcoal sticks with fine sandpaper to draw the lines and details, which is time-consuming, but I've always been a bit too focused on the details, so... Beware of emptying the charcoal dust in your ashtray, though...

[tpro]

MADSAMOAN didn't do that drawing in the above post...

Jeff... give credit to Ryan Wurmser for that drawing.... :nohope:

[MadSamoan]

Sorry guys, I assumed the right-click on properties was adequate enough as far as artist attribution and title labeling goes. I'll be more obvious in the future.

Yea, I go to CAI. I've mentioned it before that I started out at Watts for a few semesters and we were in a few of the same classes before I moved to the L.A. area. Jeremy had stopped teaching right before I came to CAI and Ryan had taken over the classes, and I trained with Ryan for two very educational years. I work fulltime (Midway Games) so my time is limited, but right now I take Glen Orbik's tuesday evening classes and bounce around between classes with Michelle Dunaway, Rick Morris, and Bill Perkins workshops at his animation studio.

As for CAI, it's about as busy as it's ever been actually. Activity at the school kind of ebbs and flows. Sometimes when the school starts to look long in the tooth and old students and teachers drift away to focus on careers, the place will get a new coat of paint, some students become teachers, old teachers return, and new students arrive and you have to teach them how to sharpen the pencils all over again.

As for Ryan's charcoal techniques, he'd pretty much employ the full arsenal of charcoal varieties. He'll use a mix of vine charcoal, charcoal pencil, powdered charcoal, bristle brushes, and compressed charcoal (the cylindrical sticks) sharpened to a point to get the various effects.

[Tjendol]

Hey people.

Wow, this thread has become a great place for some really handy tips and techniques for drawing with charcoal.

It's been a while since I first posted but I finally made a charcoal drawing again.
I haven't been able to search for some good materials yet. I just used the same charcoal I already had. I do have a charcoal pencil too, but sinces it's only one, I decided to stick to my normal charcoal for the time being.

I did make use of q tips, my hands and a piece of cloth to get the smooth transisitions I was talking about.

Of course it's still far from perfect but it's a lot better than what I made before using these tools.


Also my camera (it's a webcam) doesn't make quality pictures, so it looks a little different in the image.

Thanks again for all the great information, let's keep this thread alive :D

http://website.leidenuniv.nl/~s0369519/drawing/snow_monkey.jpg