How to learn drawing

[Pogopuschel]

Hello, after you convinced me that my glasses doesnt hinder me I started to draw (since 4 days lol). I really want to learn it. I drew as much as I can, but only 2-3 hours this days because of pre A-level(Abitur o_O) exams. Ive done some pencil exercises and Im doing still lifes all the time. Are "life drawings" the way to go or should I add something different to my drawing exercises?
-Is it better to concentrate on the proportions first or should I do as detailed works as I can atm.?
-Is it important to do confident lines at the beginning or is it enough to refine pictures with confident lines?
-Is it okay to spend hours on a simple (not simple for me) picture until its (something like) perfect in my eyes?
-Is it okay to simpliefie drawing if its a life drawing or does it prevent you from improving your skill?
-Its very hard to copy ellipses correctly from life. Any tipps?

I can post some pictures if you want to see my so called skill-level, but my scanner is broken, so I can do only pics with the digi-cam and the qualitie isnt that good...

I hope someone answers.

[Tenelaus]

I'm learning myself, so these are just my opinions, not rules set in stone.

1. I would concentrate on getting basic proportions right first. You can always choose to go more detailed after that or not.
2. Getting your lines confident is definately a good thing, so I guess you should start trying to be as confident as possible.
3. Vary the amount of time you spend drawing individual things, for example a selection of loose sketches and a final drawing that you spend a few hours on. As you're beginning, don't worry if you take a while to get something you're satisfied with, just keep practicing and you'll get faster.
4. Simplification is fine, and probably a good technique to learn too, especially for confident sketching.
5. I think I read somewhere (probably here) that drawing a sheet of quick ellipses or circles before you start your main drawing is a good idea.

[k4pka]

Also, dont try to make everything you draw a masterpiece. This will only dishearten you. Your first efforts may not impress people, but they are the foundation for the work you will be doing in a years time that WILL make peoples jaw drop.

Enjoy yourself, perfection will come so long as you dont try to force it.

[Pogopuschel]

Ok, thank you for your advices!

"2. Getting your lines confident is definately a good thing, so I guess you should start trying to be as confident as possible."

My skill is to low to place the first lines right, so this is hard for me.

"5. I think I read somewhere (probably here) that drawing a sheet of quick ellipses or circles before you start your main drawing is a good idea."

That sounds good. I will definatly try that, but it sound more like a warm up, or am I wrong?

"Also, dont try to make everything you draw a masterpiece. This will only dishearten you. "

Sometimes I feel a picture sucks. Should I fix it until it looks "good" or is it better to start a new one?

[wi_2]

big rule.

stop asking!

get some lead and start drawing.
get some anatomy info for drawing humans.
get some good reference to learn 'life' from (expressions, body shapes etc etc pretty flowers?)
get some info on perspective
get some info on light

be awer of the fact that drawing 'realisticly' is simply to make the rules of our world work in it.
physics, light, MASS!! big importence!. everything is mass. it has depth

start to get some cubes on paper. some cilinders, some spheres where u also draw the crossections to give it a feel of 3d, depth, to make it mass

but simply just draw draw draw. it's lots and lots of work.
your drawing will such hard. later they will suck less. ounce u understand drawing u'll know it.
and if u draw like really alot.. 1/15 hours a day.. u'll prob get here in a month
then get dome good reference to learn the way life moves, acts. what people do, when they do it, why!!. and 'people' can also be 'thing' of course.
when learning from life study it, don't copy! u'll learn way more by studying, create a 'clone' with your own building blocks, don't do contour drawing but build it from simple shapes and planes
feel the mass. see the lighting. simplify so u won't fry your brain.. details are of later concern. as u will know when yourself

that's about it.. keep drawing.. draw alot.. draw draw draw
this is how!..

i'd start with figuring out mass. understand it. then know it.
the more u draw the more info get's brainized making it a habit. a fact for your mind.
keep these loose though.. don't depent on rules as if it's mathmatics.. be creative.. break the rules.. but do know what ur breaking

keep drawing!

;)

[Pogopuschel]

Thx wi_2. I try to draw as often I can. What is irritating me is that some ppl say that its neccessary to see negative space.. hmm.. this seems to be only usefull for contures. And you say I should construckt everything. This seems to be a contrary. Both makes sense to me... hmm... dont know what to think now. Maybe I should do both? Or begin with contours and then do masses?

[k4pka]

I often see the whole negative space thing as more of a check. After getting basic masses down, i can check the negative space shapes to see if they match, as if they dont, theres obviously a problem there. I dont, however, think about negative spaces straight away in a drawing.

As for your other question, i feel you will learn more as a beginner by sketching, as opposed to eeking out a finished piece. Its easy to render things up, once they are sketched in correctly. Its the sketching correctly thats the hard part. So id work on that in my opinion.

[Pogopuschel]

Ok, thank you. I was rendering from start off all the time. Is there a special technique for "sketching"?

[IllustriousHarry]

A big thing I have got over is in your first line. Everyone can draw, theres isn't some level you reach and then suddenly your a good drawer. Some drawings will be good some will be bad. Improving your ability to draw is all about learning tricks.

Sitting down and really thinking why you want to improve your drawing ability is incredibly useful.

What do you want to draw eventually? etc.

E.G. personally I want to draw to design games, and so draw to help me design, and show others my ideas. However I said i was learning to draw, so I put off any practice of the design or doing what I am passionate about.

Find what you want to draw, find how you want to draw, and put some time aside to do that.

And lastly there are no "shoulds" find reasons you "want to", understand other peoples reasons for their suggestions. Don't just do things because people said you should.

[Elwell]

-Is it better to concentrate on the proportions first or should I do as detailed works as I can atm.?
-Is it okay to simpliefie drawing if its a life drawing or does it prevent you from improving your skill?

BIG FORMS FIRST! DETAILS LATER!
At your stage the most important (and maybe the hardest) thing to learn to do is how to not see details.

Learn to work:

Big to small
General to specific
Simple to complex

[Sanby]

I am not sure if anyone has posted it yet, because I haven't read all the suggestions, but, I would suggest that if you can, as soon as you can, post some of your sketches in a daily sketchbook. If you can do this regularly, then people give you comments based on your sketches, and it will help immensely, because they will be able to help with things you probably won't even notice.

Sanby

[IanE]

I've been drawing for a little over a month now and personally I think proportion is the most important aspect of any work. It doesn't matter how detailed your art is as long as it looks proportional, you can always add details later on once you've learned more. Draw as much as you can whenever you can and don't concentrate on making it look incredible, but try to make it better than whatever you drew last is how I go about it. Try doing the DSG everyday, even if you don't have a Wacom and Painter 9, still sketch it. I try to study any art I can find, and I've also found that drawing still life helps a lot with proportion, but also drawing from memory or imagination helps a lot. The weird thing is, a drawing of a dream I had looks more proportional and better than a drawing I did using the grid technique.

All in all, draw as much as possible and don't worry about how it looks now, in the end if you keep at it things will look awesome.

I hope this helps, I've found this forum to be extremely helpfull.

Best wishes,
Ian

[Pogopuschel]

Thx for your relpys! So you think, that building up a life drawing is always better than copy it beginning with the outline? So I always have to build up 3d shapes, or just forms? Plz can you give me an examlpe of a good sketch, self-drawn or from this site?

"Sitting down and really thinking why you want to improve your drawing ability is incredibly useful."

My goal isnt to do lifedrawings all the time, but its pretty fun too..

[bRyaN]

Listen to Elwell...
She knows...

Definately do life drawings...draw long sweeping lines...draw big...be confident...
Learn simple shapes(Cylinders, Spheres and Cubes) they are the building blocks to everything....

Get some good books..(anatomy, perspective, animals, etc) Do a search on here for Book threads that have been started in the past...

go to www.awn.com

look up the articles of Glenn Vilppu...Read all them in successive order...then practice each lesson and don't move on until you come to an understanding...

good luck...

[Pogopuschel]

thx this villpu stuff seems to be good.
My question is if I have to create life drawings of shapes. I know now that things from my mind have to be created by shapes, but how is it with life drawings?

[bRyaN]

Vilppu exaplins everything...

But think of the body has masses...3 major masses being the head, the chest and the hips...

you can use blocks to construct each...the legs and arms could be cylinders...etc...

[Pogopuschel]

Its seems to me that villpu explains drawing from mind and not life drawing. Isnt it a difference?

[Elwell]

Listen to Elwell...
She knows...

Well, actually, HE knows... :P

You keep using words like "have to" and "always." You don't have to always do anything. Pure contour drawing will teach you one thing, breaking a form or figure down to simple geometric solids will teach you something else, etc, etc. The goal is to truly understand what you are drawing, and the more different ways you learn to approach things the better. In general, though, Gesture to Structure to Contour is a good strategy. Check out Fredflickstone's figure and head tutorials here for examples.

[Elwell]

Its seems to me that villpu explains drawing from mind and not life drawing. Isnt it a difference?
It's all connected. Working from life helps you build up a mental model of the word that allows you to convincingly draw from your head. Knowing how to invent allows you to convincingly change things when working from life.

[bRyaN]

Well, actually, HE knows... :P
HA..my bad typo...

[Pogopuschel]

Thank you man. This answers my quetsion. :)

[k4pka]

now with all this to go on, stop asking questions!!! Start drawing constantly.

Trust me, any questions you have now can and will be answered by experimentation on your behalf. Write any questions down that you have now. Dont ask anyone for the answers, just write them down. Then start drawing. One or two months later, look at your questions. Im willing to bet you can answer them all yourself.

Draw draw draw draw. Experiment. Express youself. ENJOY yourself.

Go!

[mondegreen]

I highly recommend getting started drawing as much as you can and checking out books by george bridgeman and andrew loomis, loomis books are out of print so you may have to look around for pdf files on the internet

[bRyaN]

It's all connected. Working from life helps you build up a mental model of the word that allows you to convincingly draw from your head. Knowing how to invent allows you to convincingly change things when working from life.

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31674

And here is a perfect example of using imagination and knowledge with life drawings/model study...to create an image...

Good luck with your endeavor dude...

[Pogopuschel]

Those pics are great!
Im reading Loomis book "successfull drawing" atm and Im on page 30 now.
Loomis tells about perspective and he uses guidelines for every cube. Have I to constuckt every cube with such guidelines? Elwell doesnt seem to have any guidelines in his pic, but it seems that he has construced the woman on this pic: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v480/Elwell/CA%20pics/CA_Ilena_sketch_bw.jpg

The site Im reffering to
http://www.saveloomis.org/successfuldrawing/30.htm

Argh, Loomis answers it himself on page 32..

[bRyaN]

Learn everything, master everything, then teach yourself shortcuts....
And sometimes people can do perspective in their heads...some people need the grids or to construct vanishing points...

Professionals like Fenz Zhu and Scott Robertson don't need grids, they create imaginary vanishing points...and draw very accurately...

If you have the funds...buy some DVDs(from Scott and Feng)...as supplements to your continuing education...

And more importantly post pics of your own, everyone is giving you comments, and we don't know where you are with art...

[Pogopuschel]

So you think using guidlines is a way to learn to do it wothout them?
Ok, I will post something tomorrow, but be aware of bad image quality, because my scanner is broken. Should I post the references too? Ill go to bed now, cya tomorrow(maybe today in your time). :D

[bRyaN]

And in all honesty if you are just starting out there is no way you'll draw like Loomis or Elwell or any other professional here...

The first few drawings are gonna be crap...but if you post them and document them, you'll be able to check your progress.....

Don't be discouraged, cause everyone has gone through this and some(me) still feel like they are going thru this...

I remember a quote from somewhere.."It takes a doctor 7 years to gain their education, it takes some musicians 12 years to master their instrument, why should art be any different?"-or something like that :dead:

This is a craft where it takes time to develop your skills, to teach your brain the difference of drawing what you see from what you think you see....

Be patient, it surely does pay off at the end...

Now post some pics...

[Pogopuschel]

I know that Im a n00b and that my pics suck, but its no problem for me. I didnt expect to draw like loomis. I try to understand the basics and try to master them as good as I can. I have no timelimit to do that. And now Im really go to bed... :)

[Sanby]

Cool, it looks like you have the right attitude, which is probably the most important thing right now. Anyway, as soon as you can, start posting. Also, I don't know if anyone menetioned this earlier, but maybe pick up a copy of drawing on the right side of the brain, it is an incredible book that will help kick start the learning.

t takes some musicians 12 years to master their instrument

Being from a musical family, and my dad being a professional muscician, I know that it doesn't take 12 years to master an instrument. It takes a life time, and even when you die or get to old to play, you still aren't perfect, their are always things you can improve. I think that's what drawing is like.

Sanby

[Pogopuschel]

Ok, here it is:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/pafnuty/1.jpg
http://mitglied.lycos.de/pafnuty/2.jpg
http://mitglied.lycos.de/pafnuty/3.jpg

Ive only tryed to do contour drawings so far, because I was not sure about the 3d thing. ;)

The quality is horrible because I did it with a digicam. The yellow and grey tunes should be white. :D

I can post refference if needed, but now I really gonna sleep. ;)

@Sanby
Ive given up bodybuilding and playing an instrument because of the wrong attitude in the past.(some years ago.. wanted to be mister universum in 3 months lol) But Ive learned from my faults...

[Pogopuschel]

Do I need to do all the perspective stuff to draw figures or is it only relevant for whole scenes?(the stuff with measuring) Because I dont know what to learn first. I think single object and later scenes would be better..?

[k4pka]

EVERYTHING is affected by perspective. Hold you finger up infront of you. Its in perspective. Cant see it? Read up more. Learn, experiment and grow.

[Overclocked]

I would also recommend doing master copies of other people's drawings to get a feel for training your hand and eye. Look at Old Masters line drawings and try to copy them.

Every teacher or artist I've met has encouraged me to copy the artwork of others as practice. So, if you find a contemporary artist whose style you like, try giving it a shot. Just keep in mind that what you produce is an exercise and not to be sold, and, in a number of cases, not to be shown. Many living artists don't appreciate seeing their sketches being reproduced and on the net. Respect their copyright and only use their work as a practice aid.

Spending 2 to 3 hours is commendable, but if you want to see continual improvement, don't skip a day because you don't have the time to sink several hours into sketching. Drawing 10 minutes a day is better than nothing at all. Gesture drawings can be done in 30 seconds to a minute once you practice a little, and it helps you capture action and movement of living models who won't stand still. Sometimes I'll take a small sketchbook with me while I go out to Starbucks or a restaurant and do quick pencil or pen sketches of people nearby. It gives you a lot of gesture/reference material for later, and also helps loosen you up for more detailed drawing.

There's a few artists I'd recommend for life drawing. One is George Bridgeman, who works heavily with the construction of the body using shapes and forms. You can find plenty of books on him. He primarily works with line and crosshatching in these books. You're already looking at Loomis, and he's good to copy and study from. He has a more illustrative style, but works in line and tone. When you're ready for working on tonal figure drawings, John Vanderpoel's "The Human Figure" has many lovely drawings to copy.

Let me say this now before you get these books: You don't read them cover to cover, and don't read Vanderpoel's book at all. Loomis has some interesting information about illustration and working for clients. Bridgeman discusses anatomy but is mostly full of drawings. Vanderpoel discusses things ad infinitum, and the translation is heavy and long winded. Read what you want from these books, but concentrate more on doing master copies from these artists.

Also, while yeah, I'd recommend "Draw, Draw, Draw", I'd also say keep asking questions that you have, whether it be about technique, tricks, or materials. There's nothing wrong with taking time out to consult with other artists and participate in an artist community. It will only help you grow.

[NightVision]

Bad scans, but the drawings seem nice (as far as I can tell), show some more !

Switch between different approaches and subjects to study, do anatomy for a couple of days/ weeks, do some perspective, life drawing, copies .... long poses, short poses, ... each time you go back to a subject you studied before, you'll be able to take it to the next level, cause of what you learned in between. Like k4pka says, everything is effected by perspective ... lighting ... ea, study of perspective will make your anatomy better ... attention for perspective when practicing anatomy, will strengthen your understanding of perspective.

[Pogopuschel]

Ok thanks all, your tipps are really good. Its really hard to do a lifedrawing of shapes, and then refnine them. The other way worked faster for me. I guess my perspective sucks, so I have tried to learn it, but shall I build every single part of a figure that is a basic shape with helplines? And my boxes always look disorted... Im using A4 paper and the vanishingpoints are the paperedges in wide format.
So build-drawing is very important, because you get a mental library and a feeling of perspective and volume, ok! But whats the point if copying the art of others, if you can do lifedrawings instead? I believe you that its good, but Im a newbie, so please explain it to me. :D

edit: I dont know how to really practise this whole perspective thing... I can construct boxes, I can rotate them, I know about 1,2,3- point perspective(but I have problems with disortion), I cant really figure the sense of measuring for my figure drawings(opposed to whole scenes), I will not try the more advenced stuff untill I master this. Is there any good book that you can recommend me? German would be great, but english is ok too. My expression in english is bad but I understand english textes without problems... btw. Ive done my exams now and my holydays will begins soon, so Ive a lot of time now. I hate exam phases, so I have to learn all the day, but its only 4x a year...

"now with all this to go on, stop asking questions!!! Start drawing constantly. "
btw.: I can ask questions AND draw, Im not sitting all the time in this forum waiting for replys.(maybe my account is logged, but it doesnt mean necessary that Im sitting at the computer.) And my computer stands besides my drawing desk.. :)

[Pogopuschel]

I'm actually doing pictures of geometrical shapes and life drawings, but I try to make them only rough. Then I do lines to define the form like the lifedrawings reference would have, so it looks like a mesh with a 3d app. It's lookin very crappy atm(even crappyer than contour drawings), but I think it could give me a bit of a sense for perspective. Good idea or not? I don't want to waste my time, so please say me if this is a wrong approach! :)
Does George Bridgeman threat perspective in regard of building anatomy out of shapes?