Stupid People.

[Daunting]

Something has just got me thinking of all the stupid people doing STUPID things in my past. Just wondering some of your experiences with Stupid people so we can vent a bit I guess and have a good laugh.

One thing that was STUPID!!!!! was this 20 something year old guy that still went to our high school. Just met this gullible horny little freshman girl and did his little sweet talk to her. Guess what? an hour later they were doing it in a janitor room where there's a freakin window right there where people can just walk by and see inside the room. It wasn't all too popular of a spot to walk by but low and behold a teacher walked by and saw the two doin the nasty. (Think of The titanic movie... exactly like that almost.) Then a crowd of a few people came and finally they noticed that people were looking at them. The girl ran off, people didn't see her face (The door on the other side of the room where there wasn't no window.) and since the guy was over 20 he got arrested for rape and is still in jail after a good 3 years. I have my own prejudices about stupid sex and I feel that most things are cool as long as you do it in your own little private space. But :sigh: Alas the Stupid people take over.

Stupid stupid people...

[darth massacre]

Oh yeah I have this one classmate.

He does nothing in class but chat. I always ignore him....everyone's doing work, he;s chatting. And the best thing is...when the deadlines come in...he'll be begging you for help.....tell me what to do man....teach me....


I have no idea how he got into the program nor do I believe he'll last long. :bashful:


He's not bad though....waste of talent.

[Daunting]

Have so many people like that in my class... hate it..

[jawfish]

...here's one...

... a bloke my dad used to work with, decided to go camping. Not only had he pitched his tent on the doggy's toilet, but after he finished putting it up, he had just sat down and was watching his portable T.V. when he decided to go for a shit. Noticing that the porta-loos were miles away, he jumped in his car so he could drive over to them!!!...... NOT ONLY THAT!!!... as he looked up into his rear view mirror he saw that he was being followed by a strange black object!!!! IT WAS HIS PORTABLE T.V. WHICH WAS STILL CONNECTED TO HIS CAR BATTERY... the fick thucker!!!!....

[USER777]

yeah someone in my class is so dumb, it's friggin unbelievable. we call him
"mr. braindead" all the time and he doesn't even know that we're talkin aboot him.

[peterhurman]

i once had an arguement with a guy on a chat room who insisted that america beat england in the second world war.

[LaPalida]

You know, I always wondered about that. Is it ok to make fun of stupid people? I mean, most people would say "well yeah obviously". But, I thought, what exactly causes people to be stupid? I mean it's not socially acceptable to make fun of "mentally challenged" people right, because it's not their fault that they are born that way. However what about the other "stupid people", are they also mentally challenged in some way?... So why is it ok to make fun of them, I mean couldn't they be autistic or have some mild brain disorder? (BTW I am not criticizing you guys I am just posing a question that I thought about for a while).

Owen your example is of stupidity due to ignorance. I think people in this day and age (in the western culture anyway) should know their basic history. Making fun of ignorance is ok as long as you know the person you are talking to has had the chance to learn and passed on it. I am not going to make fun of say a person from Turkmenistan on their lack of knowledge of Western civilization because how much do I really know of Turkmenistanian history myself?

[dfacto]

You know, I always wondered about that. Is it ok to make fun of stupid people? I mean, most people would say "well yeah obviously". But, I thought, what exactly causes people to be stupid? I mean it's not socially acceptable to make fun of "mentally challenged" people right, because it's not their fault that they are born that way. However what about the other "stupid people", are they also mentally challenged in some way?... So why is it ok to make fun of them, I mean couldn't they be autistic or have some mild brain disorder? (BTW I am not criticizing you guys I am just posing a question that I thought about for a while).

My solution to this "dilemma" is to be an equal opportunity hater. I make fun of anyone and everyone if they open themselves up to it, and I'm in the mood. Sure, maybe some people have a natural mental disadvantage, but to tell the truth, you see enough stupidity coming out of seeminly intelligent people, that it really doesn't matter. Make fun, and your life will be more interesting, you're friends will laugh with you, and you'll all feel good. Just don't be vicious about it.
;)

[Daunting]

I make fun of people that endanger themselves for cheap thrills or pure laziness without thinking of the conciquences. I'm more out for hurtful stupidity. The kind that you like... cheat to get ahead or just do obviously wrong things and still do them. That's my definition of stupidity. If somebody doesn't know some trivial things I don't really make fun of them.. cause I don't know a lot of things. Just the hurtful kind.

[Sanby]

I don't like and therefore make fun of the people that think they are being "cool," but are actually just making an ass of themselves. Example, this guy in my art class at school. He thinks he is hot shit, but everytime he opens his mouth he sounds like such an idiot. I live in Canada, so in class we were talking about Canadian artists, and someone mentioned the group of seven. Now, even if you don't know anything about art, if you live in Canada, you learn about the group of seven when you are in like grade 3. This guy goes, "I don't know who they, I don't listen to rock." :jawdrop:

Or, this other time, my teacher mentioned something about bullying in highschool. He says, "O, that doesn't happen in highschool, only in elementary school." He also, after turned to his friends and said, "I don't get bullied, I'm the one that would do the bullying." Man, if you say things like that then you are just asking for it.

The problem is that he is so ignorant. I think that if someone that ignorant, of their surroundings, and of common knowledge then it is fine to make fun of them as opposed to someone that is mentally challenged.

BTW, this is a great thread, it gives me a place to rant about all the stupid things that happen throughout the day. I could go on a lot longer about this braindead teacher that I had, who had no common sense, but I think I'll leave it at that.

Sanby

[Daunting]

School seems to produce stupid people.... kind of contradictory as for what it is. I'm home schooling my kids... with a close net of friends and other associates so they won't go crazy. Public school is just psycho.

[cotron]

Man, it sounds like you guys just haven't been exposed to really stupid people... sure people are dumb in school, that's the place TO be dumb..

I drew caricatures in a theme park for two years, that's where you get the cream of the crop for stupid assholes. It's amazing that there are adults that are dumber than most kids. I think anyone who's worked in the food service industry can attest to this also...waiting tables you can get some really stupid people:

"A kwessadillyo(quesadilla)? what's that? some kinda taco? i don't like italian food" -a gem from the days of waiting tables

And with caricatures, people would be baffled by the "prices are per person" sign... Almost every other customer needed me to explain how much it would be for two people instead of one.. it's not quantum physics, it's simple addition. 10+10=20.

/bitter jaded cotron

[Sanby]

"A kwessadillyo(quesadilla)? what's that? some kinda taco? i don't like italian food"

That is really damn funny. I think I would have burst out laughing at the guy.

Daunting: I don't think that the schooling produces stupid people, but if yo are not the brightest, then I think it is normal to give up after consistently having the failing grades shoved in your face. I don't think that the way kids are passed and failed helps things, if you know what I am getting at. But, I think that going to a public school has a lot of advantages that aren't in the classroom.

Sanby

[NoUseFrAName]

I think the epitome of stupid is when all your friends hate you. I know so many people like that it's scary.

...and the quesadilla thing....man...good times...I've seen nearly identical things so many times at work.

-Rob

[jfrancis]

http://www.thehumorarchives.com/humor/0001103.html

[Samael]

You want stupid people? I work in Technical Support...

"I couldn't uninstall the Norton Antivirus that came with my computer, so I looked around the Registry for stuff that looked associated with it and deleted them...now I keep getting errors?"

"Why won't my Dot Matrix printer work on my new computer?"

Customer: "This is the third Ethernet Card you've replaced, is this common?"
Me: "No, actually they're usually really hardy."
Customer: "What would break them then?"
Me: "Oh, well, a power surge, dust, heat..."
Customer: "Heat? Would having the computer over a furnace duct in the floor do that?"
Me: "....."

"I reinstalled the Operating System, and I'd like to reverse that."

[LaPalida]

Hahaha Samael. I got a funny site for you. Long Live Havening! - The Chronicles of George (http://chroniclesofgeorge.nanc.com/)

[jetpack42]

You know, I always wondered about that. Is it ok to make fun of stupid people? I mean, most people would say "well yeah obviously". But, I thought, what exactly causes people to be stupid? I mean it's not socially acceptable to make fun of "mentally challenged" people right, because it's not their fault that they are born that way. However what about the other "stupid people", are they also mentally challenged in some way?... So why is it ok to make fun of them, I mean couldn't they be autistic or have some mild brain disorder? (BTW I am not criticizing you guys I am just posing a question that I thought about for a while).

Owen your example is of stupidity due to ignorance. I think people in this day and age (in the western culture anyway) should know their basic history. Making fun of ignorance is ok as long as you know the person you are talking to has had the chance to learn and passed on it. I am not going to make fun of say a person from Turkmenistan on their lack of knowledge of Western civilization because how much do I really know of Turkmenistanian history myself?

ok, I think I figured it out. LaPanda is Toohey in disguise?

[darth massacre]

I make fun of anyone and everyone if they open themselves up to it, and I'm in the mood.

Also depends on the person. I'm the kind of guy who has no secrets...well maybe a few...but I don't have a lot of insecurities. The irritating fella in my class that I mentioned above often use it to entertain himself....well I can't really say I'm pissed off, I usually have a wry smile on my face coz I know the fella's all talk......he wouldn't last a day if he got a job where I used to work. Especially if he is assigned to help me :bashful: aw hell he wouldn't last a day anywhere in the industry. I'm just watching the drama unfold once he realises he's not cut for this line of work.

That's why sometimes when some really stupid people try to spoil my day...I remind myself of this phrase some wise old folks told me.


NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. THEY DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL AND BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE!



Just smile and nod your head....My artwork speaks for me.

[jawfish]

...I feel that it is just natural for people to laugh at stupidity... I mean come on, we're all stupid now and again aren't we?... we all do crazy things now and again... I don't mind people laughing at me when I cock up... I see people with mental health problems as being a separate issue, they're not being stupid if they actually have a problem... that would be like calling someone in a wheelchair, lazy...a stupid thing to say...

[Sanby]

NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT. THEY DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL AND BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE!

That is unbelievably true.

that would be like calling someone in a wheelchair, lazy

That is a brilliant comparison.

Yeah, everyone has the dumb moments, and it is good if you can laugh at yourself at those times. But, people who are constantly being stupid, not in afunny way, that's when they really get on my nerves.

Sanby

[LaPalida]

Hey. I posted this already in another thread but I think this fits here pretty well. These guys are just spouting dumb remarks, esp Ann Coulter. Most Canadians are dogsledding at lunch! tihi. http://www.hugi.is/hahradi/bigboxes.php?box_id=51208&f_id=1211

[darth massacre]

I don't mind people laughing at me when I cock up... I see people with mental health problems as being a separate issue, they're not being stupid if they actually have a problem... that would be like calling someone in a wheelchair, lazy...a stupid thing to say...
Me too, I think its alright for folks to laugh at my expense if I did something stupid. Heck I remember in the army, especially during boot camp, everyone just became dumb....I meet up with my boot camp mates once in a while to laugh about all the crap we went through and how funny it was on hindsight (this was almost 5 years ago).


I don't think we're laughing at mentally challenged folks here too. Rather, idiots who are PURE RETARDS with normal IQ. Like the classmate I was talking about, no one could understand why he's even in an art program. He's got some skills but he just wastes his time chatting with people in class when he can do work while chatting....then whines about not having enough time and the teachers being unfair and so on. He might do better as a stand up comic.......but he gotta work on his humour. :dur:

[Chris J. Anderson!]

Haha, funny topic. Read this if you can tolerate my unbarablely long winded response.

I'll say this, since I've been thinking about this since grade school; I've learned there are Four kinds of stupid people.

1) Natural born retarted people, who really are born retarted, no fault of their own.

2) The obvious morons, like those who end up on a trash talk shows, who have 20 different kids from many different people, and don't seem to care too much about life in general. Trash people.

3) Many mid, to upperclass people, those who are a step above the "obvious morons", better seen as the types who, at first, seem to be smart, but then you realize that they only pretend to be smart. They present to other people, the image that they are good, smart, balanced people, when in the end, they know nothing, they're full of it. It's usually the morons who buy into them. These are usually the kinds of people, when you ask them a question about most things, they can't give you a well constructed, no bullshit answer. If your not full of crap, then that means you have nothing to hide, your a free and open person, and will give people the true answer of what they know. They won't have anything to hide, or throw a bunch of known phrases and jargon at you to try to "seem" intelligent.

4) (What I dispise the most), Those that most people would call, intelligent. Which are, those who measure intelligence on what, and how much you know. Just simply knowing a lot of knowledge about many different things means nothing without true understanding of what you know. If someone doesn't have complete understanding of what they know, then they don't really know what they're talking about. But many people in this catagory will use this stupid idea as a way to seem more intelligent than they really are. For example:.....

....someone who knows a great deal about an aspect of history, will be respected, and will look down on those who don't know all that they know about history. Which is stupid, because this same scenero can be used in the opposite, like for example, a bunch of people from the ghetto will look down on the history knowing person, because that person is ignorant to the way of the ghetto. The ghetto people figure, your a stupid dumbass for not being proficent in ghetto life style. Which, the history knowing person knows what they know because they've been around an aspect of culture to learn it, just as the ghetto folks are profecient in survival of the ghetto because that's the type of cultural lifestyle they've been around and learn. It's not about wha your proficent in, it's about how much you truly understand what you know, and how well you can learn more about other aspects of life.

Or how about the arrogant computer programmer who is respected and seen as brilliant, because he/she has great knowledge on computers. And because it's "in" to be computer literate, in today's day and age, your considered a genious to others (other morons) simply because you know about computers. So now you feel superior, and people see you as superior, when in actuality, this person is ignorant to what someone else can do in a differet field. And on top of that, the other person may be "smart" enough, to learn the way of computer programming, while some computer programmers, is too arrogant (dumb) to learn anything outside of his/her skill. Plus this person may have no sense of morality, or people skills, which is why this person's may not have had sex in 10 tens. (ofcourse this isn't true for all computer programmers, this is just q quick example.) But yet, they will still be seen as "intelligent". Arrogance is a big part of stupidity, and many people don't really know what the word, "arrogant" really means in it's entirety. I mean, someone could call me stupid just because I'm poor at spelling words. Using the same scenero, one could say that peson was stupid for not being proficent in martial arts, or music. But thats stupid. It's not about what your proficent in.

Or in school, when someone gets straight A's in every class, all the time. This person is seen as "intelligent". However, in many cases, this person doesn't truely or throroughly understand all that they've learned after they pass their tests in school. Some people are simply good at memorizing words and numbers that they see, but after the test is said and done, they remember what they know, but don't understand it, not as they should. But they are good at presenting themselves as "smart" by using certain words and explanations, phrases they've remembered, about things that make others believe they're smart. And ofcourse looking and sounding a certain way when talking, makes people (stupid people) believe they're smart. They get straight A's, but have no real understanding of what they know, have terrible sense of moral's or reality, possibly racist (in a quiet way), sexist, etc. This is stupidity hiding under the presentation of intelligence. I hate it. True intelligence is knowing, truly understanding, questioning, and the ability to grow no matter how little knowledge you may have in any given area.

The worlds full of stupidity. I always say about 95% full of it. Many are on trash talk shows, in ghetto's, in the government, in business, disguised as lawyers, some religious, some scientists, and a few have been written down in history as great philosophers, There is no escape from stupidity. Not when stupid people keep having sex, creating more children to raise stupidly. And nukes, which are created by stupidity, will probably be the undoing.

-C

[Sanby]

Well that's quite the reply. You should write a book and the subject :dur:

Sanby

[Daunting]

Man... you know stupid people Chris.

[JoshuaTheJames]

Man... you know stupid people Chris.


Hahahahhaahah

[jawfish]

Those that most people would call, intelligent. Which are, those who measure intelligence on what, and how much you know. Just simply knowing a lot of knowledge about many different things means nothing without true understanding of what you know. If someone doesn't have complete understanding of what they know, then they don't really know what they're talking about. But many people in this catagory will use this stupid idea as a way to seem more intelligent than they really are. For example:.....

...yes you're right!...that's not intelligent, that's just having a good memory....

[Slash]

Chris: You should listen to the song "the idiots are taking over" by nofx. It seems you share a few opinions.

[jawfish]

...I don't know whether you would define this as being stupid or ignorant, but I get highly annoyed by the huge section of people who believe everything they read, hear, or see... such as...

Adam and Eve must've existed as it is written in the bible...
Smoking must be good for you, because it says so on that poster...
that urinal must be an amazing piece of art, because it's in a gallery...

[thebluepuppy]

VERY SCARY STORY ABOUT ART TEACHERS AND STUDENTS!!!!!!

let me start you off into my story. my friend and i both go to a community college, and we just took up an illustration class. my friend isnt the brightest bulb in the box but hes pretty geunine. well for the last year or so ive been trying to tell him that if he really wants to be a professional illustrator and concept artist he needs to start studying anotomy and using picture reference of humans. his reply is always the same, "thats cheating". also he says he only draws when he feels like it. there is no need to practice. (he probaly feels like drawing once a week for like an hour). so i finally decided that i didnt want to see my friend following his stupid "fake" rules anymore so i decided that i would post the question to my teacher without bringing up my friends name. i asked my teacher if study anatomy and using picture refence for drawing is a good idea and he said, "studying anatomy is hogwash. its a waste of time." i almost fell out of my chair and my friend looked over at me with a grin. he said " i told you man". it was a very sad day. ALL respect i had for my art teacher that day went away. i never have asked him a question ever again.

[darth massacre]

:nohope:

2 no hopers in one classroom.....

[Floris Didden]

@puppy
So that was the disturbance in the force I felt.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

thebluepuppy - HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Thats messed up!

Slash - Haha, Hey, I'm gonna have to check that out.

jawfish - Yeah, it is just having a good memory. Irritating that a lot of people seem not to get that. And the examples you mentioned, yeah, thats pretty stupid.

Sanby - It's funny, I'm kinda writing a little somthing about it.

Daunting - Some of the things I told JOSHTHEJAMES about a while ago is on the level of what thebluepuppy said. It's amazing what you experience in this world.

::EDIT::

Floris - HAHAHAHA!! I disturbance in the force.

[Daunting]

Ok I know your probably a non violent person but please slap your art teacher and burn that building just so the balance of art isn't dieing anymore.

That's why we hate stupid people... They bring down the thousands of years that humans have been half way intelligent to a level back when we were barely homo sapiens.

[jawfish]

...I didn't realise they had started putting teaching degrees in christmas crackers...

[bhuddistmonk]

"the Bible Was Written By God!!!!!"

[Sanby]

Wow, I could swear that I replied after the art teacher story. I have no idea why it isn't here. Anyway, I'll say it again since it's not here.

That is unbelievably scary. That is like telling a jazz muscician that learning to play scales is a waste of time.

Sanby

[MuffinMan]

LMAO, yeah i see what you guys mean.
what really annoys me most are people who don't be themselves or people who have no self-respect. to me that is considered "stupid".

at my high school, that hellhole is full of them! ghetto people trying to be hip-hop and all bling-bling like tupac or eminem in thos music videos. they spend 100 of dollars on pairs of cloths and thousands on jewelery (i think jewelry is the stupidest shit ever to waste money on, come on!). it really pisses me off how they are like "yo,dawg you strapped!?" and "damn, man, i'm broke!". big fucking duh! no fucking wonder they have no cash...obviously they spend too much fucking bucks to fucking look "cool". it's actually the opposite. more like they are being retards! gucci, fubu, ec'ko, etc. it's all just a waste. really you can get clothes way cheaper and same quality as thos from JCPenny or Khols.
i just HATE that....
i can't stand people who do drugs or are obese. when i look at them i always can't think anything else ekcept think they are "disgusting"...
that's what i got to say. sorry if ya fell offended by what i said. it's my opinion.

[Daunting]

Ya I have seen that a lot in my life. I live in the slums of the ghetto for some odd reason and I hear this talk every time I walk home from the bus stop. It's so dumb, they're always on their corner everyday in the middle of the street blocking everybody who's driving, then looks at us like we have something wrong with us. And a lot of the people who I am talking about live on my street ALL their lives, no promotions, no good jobs nothing. Just using their money to buy some more weed and such and take up the tax payers money with welfare. I know all people on warefare aren't like this, but I've seen some who do, it ain't cool.

[MuffinMan]

yeah, i mean it just isn't cool.
why can't they get a life?
really there are alot of student failures in detroit...so many drop-outs...it's so ghetto.

this ghetto culture or whatever. makes hispanics,arabs, calzians,iraqis and blacks look bad.

i mean there are calzian people who have their own gang and try to muscle people out of school when they feel like it or take some kids lunch money. or start fights to feel powerful.

i'm like "WTF! is their problem!?"

[Floris Didden]

this ghetto culture or whatever. makes hispanics,arabs, calzians,iraqis and blacks look bad.
"

= irony.

Did you mean caucasian (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Caucasian)?

Though I agree, ghetto's (ironic really, seeing where the term ghetto came from) are bad for the publics view of minority's. That skewed view then results in actions which lead to ghetto forming, which leads to ghetto culture, etc. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[JoshuaTheJames]

bluepuppy,

What is your teacher's skill level?

-JtJ

[Sanby]

this ghetto culture or whatever. makes hispanics,arabs, calzians,iraqis and blacks look bad.

Yeah,so many people are into this "ghetto" thing. It's not just black people, it's white people and brown people and chinese people. They walk around all tough, get involved in gangs and do drugs. I saw one guy walking through a mall with his hand in his top jacket pocket as if was holding a gun. I was scared to walk past that guy. And they want this image? That's the part I don't understand, because all these rappers who have this image, and talk about drugs and pimping and violence, don't understand why black people have such a bad image. Isn't it obvious?

I know this doesn't apply to all black and brown people, because I have some friends who are black, brown and they are extremely nice people. But, they as a black or brown community are covered up by this "ghetto" image. Especially because most rappers are black, white and chinse people don't get critized about it, but in my town, they are just as much doing it as the black people.

Sanby

[Daunting]

That's the part I don't understand, because all these rappers who have this image, and talk about drugs and pimping and violence, don't understand why black people have such a bad image. Isn't it obvious?

I know it's so stupid. And I hate it when they make rap songs complianing about the ghetto and about their, "Homies" getting killed. They freakin perpetuated all that violence they should blame themselves. They go right back to rapping about hoes guns and drugs.

And I hate the state of the women that fall under that way of life. They are so degraded that they actually like having 20 guys call them hoes and bitches and talkin about, "OH I smashed her" and stuff. A lot of them ACTUALLY LIKE THAT I don't understand. hundreds of years of fighting for civil rights and that's all some of them have to show for it? Sheesh, makes me feel sorry for my race at times. But then I see a nice group of young men that builds my faith up again.

[MuffinMan]

yeah, i hear yah. they are all like the G-unit...you know what i mean? all these rappers who stil follow the tradition of "bad self-image" you know the themes.
when it comes to rap...the good rap is beastie boys or whatever that has nothing to do with pimps, drugs, whores, bling, etc.

i used to think that was cool....now it just isn't anymore. since i have grown up and soon will be done with the hell hole high school, i have learned that shit is just stupid as hell. when ever i see a dude trying to be cool, ghetto, or whatever and not be themselves. i just look at them and give them that look like they don't deserve to live. really, i hate it that much at lahser high school. i asked on dude who was all bling bling, "why don't you be yourself and stop trying to be cool?" and he's like "i'm am myself...this me dawg!" ...and i looked at him with much hatred. i replied "so you basically like to act and dress like those hip-hop queers?" . he ignored me and was like all ghetto and thought i was stupid and not cool. i just can't get along with idiots like them.

eh...i'm so pissed. i've said enough. well, there you have it.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

Sanby said: That's the part I don't understand, because all these rappers who have this image, and talk about drugs and pimping and violence, don't understand why black people have such a bad image. Isn't it obvious?
Daunting said: I know it's so stupid. And I hate it when they make rap songs complianing about the ghetto and about their, "Homies" getting killed. They freakin perpetuated all that violence they should blame themselves. They go right back to rapping about hoes guns and drugs.
Muffin Man said: i asked on dude who was all bling bling, "why don't you be yourself and stop trying to be cool?" and he's like "i'm am myself...this me dawg!" ...and i looked at him with much hatred. i replied "so you basically like to act and dress like those hip-hop queers?"
I'll say this; the reason why a big chunk of black people act ghetto and parade hardcoreness and death, is because, as a culture, many blacks are still suffering from the slavery period. (All sniper rifles are aimed at my nose right now, but I'll explain). Some blacks are doing well in life, because of families that have healed enough from 'broken family' issues that where caused by slavery, but all those stuck in dead end life styles, are that way because they came from a messed up family, raisd in a messed up neighborhood, no real access to learn how to be a real grown up with real goals because their's no one to learn that from when you live in a crappy environment, and born from unknowledgable families, and famlies that are so hurt by racism, that they pass that negative way of life down to their kids, which every downfall in the family, dominoed down from the assimulatio of slavery.

Slavery didn't happen 1000 year ago, it only happened two or three family generations ago (numbers changes depending on where), and it takes a long time for family generations to heal from their entire culture and way of life being ripped away from them a few generations ago. That stuff doesn't just go away no matter how hard America tryies to sweep it under the rug. And the dirt we see, is all the mindless ghetto folks that many feel are being that way because they're idiots, when in actuality, they have no choice. What can you do when your raised in a shitty environment, and you have no outlet to really learn, and no life experience that pushes you out into the real world... And your only outlet, is a gun and mindless hardcoreness, which makes one feel like a man because nothing else will; and money and hoes because that the only enjoyment you know after being depressed in the ghetto, with very little to feel good about, in fact, afraid of death, so you look forward to your gun, being a hardcore Jerk, and degrading women? Without good family, good enviornmental suroundings andf positive people around you, you can't do anything.

And all the hispanics and asians and whites, etc, who follow the 'ghetto version' of blacks into ghettoness, some do it for show, because its the "in" thing to do. Some do it as a way to feel like a real hardcore man. Some do it because they feel they're cuture relates to black culture with the same cultural pain, which, they're is no relation. And about the women who think being called a bitch is cool, think that because thats what they learned in they're environment, and know nothing else, just like the big death dude with his big coat and machine gun, selling drugs on the corner does what he does, because he never had a real role model as a kid show him how to be an good man. Theirs nothing he can really do about it unless circumstance allows it.

It's easy to say the ghetto folks have control over their decisions, and could stop being the way they're being, but in all actuality, they have no real control, their is no real Free Will about it. What they do is because of the "Hiroshima" that America caused in their cultural past, and now we witness their nuclear fallout.

What do you guys think?

[JoshuaTheJames]

many blacks are still suffering from the slavery period. (All sniper rifles are aimed at my nose right now, but I'll explain).

Very True and the next line...Hilarious!

-Joshua

[LaPalida]

I'll say this; the reason why a big chunk of black people act ghetto and parade hardcoreness and death, is because, as a culture, many blacks are still suffering from the slavery period.

That's why alot for the natives have drinking problems. They are still bitter about being invaded and mistreated. Also the reservation areas where they live provide enough compensation so that they can buy the booze and drown themselves in it.

What you say explains things but it doesn't excuse them. I think even though shit happened to these people (well really their ancestors) it is no reason to screw up your life and those around you. I mean so many bright people come out and make it even if they were abused in the past. I'd say get over it. Everyone was fucked over by someone else at some point in history. Don't dwell on it. Do something that matters right now instead of being bitter about past (about which you can't do anything anyway).

[JoshuaTheJames]

LaPalida...If it was so easy why hasn't it been done?

No one was excusing anyone.
" it is no reason to screw up your life and those around you."
That sentence of your's really gets me. Having said that everything should be fine. Everybody in every circumstance has total and utter control over there life.

LIFE! IT'S SIMPLE! :teeth: -heh.


Honestly though...Seems only Time will heal...




-JtJ

[Daunting]

is because, as a culture, many blacks are still suffering from the slavery period.

I'm all too familiar with this. Hate using this as an excuse (Doubt I am in this context) But I'm from that african American (Hate sayin that rather just say black) ancestry. I had to go to these kinds of schools I'd say a good 3 years out of my school career. And believe me it is the saddest situation you'll ever see. You will definately become angry at something, might not be at the kids themselves but it does make you angry. And I HATE seeing kids that have potential to be great, but they still try to live in this lifestyle that isn't healthy at all.


But ya everything you said Chris is very true. Too smart for your own good.

[LaPalida]

You're right, I'm just saying that they need a new mindset (duh!). It's true though I probably came off as abrasive. They are poor and don't really know any better besides which wealth usually gets passed down generations... and abolishment of slavery is relatively recent. I just wish people wouldn't dwell so much on their past and look forward...

[Chris J. Anderson!]

LaPalida - It's not that "Ghetto hardcore type" black people are dwelling on the past, it's that the past still clouds their future. Like parents who don't know how to raise their kids right, women who sleep around and get 14 children from many different dudes, the girls grow up and do what their mother did, and the boys usually have no father, then turn to the hardcore machine gun dude on the street corner for advice on how to be a man, and the cycle continues. And the bad parenting and lack of persective on life started from the slavery period, where familes were destroyed, culture was ruined, and it takes a few generations to get things back on track. Remember, not all black people are like this, because those are the ones who's families have grow for the better. So a good change is happening, just slowly.

And on top of that, much of the past still lingers in many older people from other races, around 40 and above, today, and so, many blacks in general still get reminded of the past because of the corruption of the present from other people. Remember that racism is still going on pretty strong, even within black peoples own culture. It hasn't dissappeared. In fact speaking of racism, last year, my girlfriend at the time(who's hispanic), her sister was dating a guy from Iraq. This dude was friends with my girlfriend until I came along. He hated me because I was't hispanic or from Iraq, and decided to break up his friendship with my girlfriend about it. What foolishness. Hahaaa, I swear, human beings are on their way.

Whoa, way off course from the origional topic, hah, but this is an interesting topic as well.

[darth massacre]

Yeah it should be a brand new thread by itself.


To be fair, the poor who lead a lifestyle different from us aren't stupid.....just lack the privileges we have to help them see something better than what they have. Lack of opportunity, not intellect :bashful:




Back on topic. Stupid people....REALLY dumb fucks.....like those who starve for fashion statements, surgically enhance parts of their bodies, and so on and so on.....yeah its 6am and I haven't slept the whole night....:teeth: don't mind me.

[Sanby]

Chris I agree with what your saying to a point. But, around where I live everyone is doing it, white people brown people and chinese people, not just blacks.

Sanby

[Alice]

Something has just got me thinking of all the stupid people doing STUPID things in my past. Just wondering some of your experiences with Stupid people so we can vent a bit I guess and have a good laugh.

One thing that was STUPID!!!!! was this 20 something year old guy that still went to our high school. Just met this gullible horny little freshman girl and did his little sweet talk to her. Guess what? an hour later they were doing it in a janitor room where there's a freakin window right there where people can just walk by and see inside the room. It wasn't all too popular of a spot to walk by but low and behold a teacher walked by and saw the two doin the nasty. (Think of The titanic movie... exactly like that almost.) Then a crowd of a few people came and finally they noticed that people were looking at them. The girl ran off, people didn't see her face (The door on the other side of the room where there wasn't no window.) and since the guy was over 20 he got arrested for rape and is still in jail after a good 3 years. I have my own prejudices about stupid sex and I feel that most things are cool as long as you do it in your own little private space. But :sigh: Alas the Stupid people take over.

Stupid stupid people...


Accepting a law that makes cases like this, consetual sex turned into rape cause of the age of one of the participants, sounds pretty stupid to me.

[LaPalida]

I understand, it's like a vicious circle. Nevertheless change can only come from within. I own "City of God", a very good movie about the Brazilian favelas. Now that's poverty. And yet the narrator of the story (it's a true story) was like a ray of sunshine within this community. He realized that the life people lived around him wasn't inevitable and he got out. While I don't know Brazilian history I don't think that they were enslaved. Poverty is a byproduct of slavery in US. In reality poverty is the real culprit in this story. I'd say take all the rich white people (their children now) that capitalized on slavery and make them redistribute that fortune amonst the needy poor of the country. It was money made off the backs of slaves and they don't deserve to have it.

[Alice]

I understand, it's like a vicious circle. Nevertheless change can only come from within. I own "City of God", a very good movie about the Brazilian favelas. Now that's poverty. And yet the narrator of the story (it's a true story) was like a ray of sunshine within this community. He realized that the life people lived around him wasn't inevitable and he got out. While I don't know Brazilian history I don't think that they were enslaved. Poverty is a byproduct of slavery in US. In reality poverty is the real culprit in this story. I'd say take all the rich white people (their children now) that capitalized on slavery and make them redistribute that fortune amonst the needy poor of the country. It was money made off the backs of slaves and they don't deserve to have it.

While they have inherrited their money, have the people who are poor earned their right to the money? Their greatgreatgreat whatever paid in blood, not their grandgrandgrand childrens blood.
Money and happiness is something you can make on your own, blaiming history for your own failure to do something about the situation is just wrong.
Dont get me wrong, I was born and raised in a verry poor family, living 5 people in the same 2 room apartement.
Poverty is not a biproduct from enslavery in usa, is a result of bad financial politics.

Oh well, sorry if I come off as somewhat diffuse, just had a couple of beers.
But I just wanted to note the theory in gving land and money back to the enslaveds children.
I worked as a human aid volounteer in southerna africa for some time and there is the result of those theorys you present.
Moqambique is currently one of the worlds poorest countries, cause they took their land back from the people who had been living there for hundreds of years. Every single educated person left the country within a couple of weeks. They blew up their houses before leaving, transferred the assets they could and ran. The only thing left was the uneducated and poor people. Today you see the result of that, people living in huts, not affording something to wear.

oh well, Guess Im the idiot for writing this in the thread about dumb people :D

[emily g]

LaPalida, I have heard about that movie and have been interested in seeing it.
I have to correct you a little bit on your Brazilian history though (which you admit you don't know much of)--Brazil definitely did have slavery. They imported more slaves than the United States and slavery didn't end in Brazil until 1888, 25 years after it was abolished in the U.S.
The abolishment of slavery happened more "peacefully" than it did in the U.S.--mostly economics changed and European immigrants became the preferred labor source.
But slavery is still more recent to their people than it is to ours.

emily

[LaPalida]

Poverty is not a biproduct from enslavery in usa, is a result of bad financial politics.

While you're right about the politics I was referring only to the impoverished blacks rather than all the other minorities.

Dont get me wrong, I was born and raised in a verry poor family, living 5 people in the same 2 room apartement.

1 room with 3 people in an apartment that we had to share with 2 other families (each had their own room), bathroom and kitchen was shared. Didn't have anything to eat except bread and cheese some days, and still I don't even consider that poor on the same level as some of these people.

While they have inherrited their money, have the people who are poor earned their right to the money? Their greatgreatgreat whatever paid in blood, not their grandgrandgrand childrens blood.

I think everyone has the right to live in good conditions regardless whether they earned it etc. But more to the point. You can find out which families are descendants of the enslaved and those that are the descendants of slave owners. It's true that children shouldn't pay the sins of their fathers... but inheritance is not really their money is it? They didn't earn it. I have nothing against inheritance except when it's made unjustly on the backs of others. That's why I don't believe in royal families etc, it's all bs.

I see what you are saying is that because they were poor and uneducated they were unable to make it on their own. I guess I wasn't clear, I am not suggesting we just give them a bag of coins and send them on their way - that hardly makes up for what was done to them. I think the best thing is to give them some kind of financial support, better living conditions program or something like that, good education, special minority treatment (ie. like the natives don't pay taxes).

Emily thanks for the heads up. I can't believe I didn't even realize that they had slavery even after watching the movie. Most people in the movie were black and poor. The movie is a great eye opener not only into human psyche but also into the quality of life that we have in North America vs favela. I think I say this to myself everyday that I am so fucking lucky to live in Canada right now. All that we have here we can't take for granted. No matter how poor you think you are living in Canada/US it doesn't even come close to the way these people live. It's not just poverty its repression and violence. I can't see anybody staying sane or virtuous in that environment, not if they want to survive.

It's true what they say: Before white man there was no devil... because white man IS the devil.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

LaPalida said: I understand, it's like a vicious circle. Nevertheless change can only come from within. I own "City of God", a very good movie about the Brazilian favelas. Now that's poverty. And yet the narrator of the story (it's a true story) was like a ray of sunshine within this community. He realized that the life people lived around him wasn't inevitable and he got out.
I'll have to check that movie out. And yeah, change can only come from within, I think thats true......to a degree. (Hahaha, I always end up disagreeing with you on something :bashful: ) , but mostly, I think that "change" can happen after an opportunity, or a circumtance that conditions you emotionally, happens to you, to then give you the strength, the drive, to want to change. You can't change without enough of some sort of positive conditioning through some sort of series of life experiences, to allow you a good enough reason (personally) to change.

The narroator of that movie realized that the life people lived around him wasn't inevitable, and he got out, like you say, but something compelled him him to get out. Something, some life experience, gave him strength. a strenth that not everyone has because not everyone experiences. No one wants to live terrible lives, but not everyone knows how to end it, and succeed, and many people, over time, simply give up and give in to the bad life they live. It then, when older, becomes a way of life that they refuse to give up, because that is the only life they know.

Also, I think, the Brazilian favelas, from what you say, had some hardcore poverty. But I think that everyone's poverty situation is poverty and that no ones poverty is more hardcore than the other. It's all the same, caused by the same types of problems, when you break it down. I sometimes have some pretty interesting debates with my wife about cultural poverty, and which culture sufferes the most. It's like, who has the worst injury? "Well, I'm missing a finger." "So what, I'm missing a leg". "So what, I'm missing my whole lower body, now that's real injury". "Well, So what, your all complaining for nothing, I'm missing all of my body accept my head and chest." It becomes a comparing contest, but in the end, it's all suffering. I don't think anyones suffering should be held higher or lower than someone elses.

What do you think?

[jetpack42]

I'd say take all the rich white people (their children now) that capitalized on slavery and make them redistribute that fortune amonst the needy poor of the country. It was money made off the backs of slaves and they don't deserve to have it.


Wow. I was agreeing with everything you said up until here. Throwing money at them isn't going to change the culture. Because their wealthy they'll get morals or goals or whatever? It's pretty proven amongst the rich we've got already that money doesn't buy ethics. but it is a pretty proven equation that hard work equals more money and a better lifestyle. We're going to disagree on a fundamental level, so there's not any point in arguing.

edit: I like how you used City of God as an example, and said "change comes from within", yet...I missed the part of that movie where Rocket got a handout? He set goals for himself, eventually stuck with them, got a few breaks, and things worked out. He did it himself, thats the beauty of the story. Changes comes within people. For the record, thats one of my favorite movies.

Here is an example of modern day slavery in Nigeria.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3632203.stm
I didn't see anywhere in the article where it made special mention that white people were enslaving black people.

here is another article about American Indians enslaving each other, well before the Europeans arrived.
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/history/indianslaves.htm
It wasn't on the scale of European or american slavery, but slavery is slavery, right?

My point is, Race is irrelivent. Evil people are evil. White people didn't introduce slavery and killing and raping to the world. People have been doing it as long as they've been around, to each other, regardless of race. White people have just been the most successful at it. Somehow white people killing, conquering, enslaving, raping, pludering and exploiting other white people is just history (and has been around for just as long, if not longer). But white people doing it to blacks? Now that's something to get outraged about!

(interesting how this arguement has worked its way back to poor parenting in some sense)
Arguably, America has the most opportunity for ANYBODY in the history of any country on the face of the planet. You work hard, and it pays off. What more do you want? Saying "well...generations ago these people were taken advantage of, and so today thier only option is to drink themselves into oblivion/become pimps/do drugs." is a cop out. When does this become unnacceptable? After 5 generations? after 10? Blaming the problems of 10 or 100 years ago for wasting your entire life, your childrens, and making the world a worse place is retarded, and again, a cop out. What about the white pimps/drug dealers/rapers/murderers/drunks? If they can't blame slavery of 50 or 150 years ago, what's their excuse? If you want to say that these people are a victim of thier culture, then the slaveowners of centuries ago were victims of thier cultures. Do you realize the implications of that arguement? If the (largely black) urban culture of pimping/drug dealing/disrespecting women and whites is acceptable as a culture, due to slavery, then the slavery itself is acceptable because it was the culture of its time. In that case, the "white man" did no wrong, and quit bitching about it because it's hypocritical. I don't believe this though. If I'm going to accept what my ancestors did was wrong, then they need to accept that what they are doing is wrong. But who wants to admit they're wrong?

We all know education is a big key to success in todays world. There is a million scholorships out there for anyone who isn't white. Many, who's only qualifier is thier race.

http://www.free-4u.com/minority.htm

edit:"Over 600,000 scholarships in the FastWeb database are based on location, age, school year and heritage."

and that was only the first link I clicked off of Google. On top of that, American Indians go to college for FREE. There was a kid I went to the Art Institute with who was 1/16th Cherokee or something like that, and he had a free ride, housing included. I don't think staying on a reservation and drinking yourself stupid is an excuse any longer (not that it was a good one to begin with). These people need to get over themselves and join the rest of society. I'd like to say I'm sorry if this offends people, but I'm not. If you took ANY drunk (american indian or otherwise) and gave him a big ass house and 2 Rolls Royce's and told him to show up for work at 8AM, who wants to bet he'd show up? The only people who can change thier lives are themselves. In today's society, success is available for anyone who wants to work for it. What more do you want?

Racism is a really hot topic for me. I won't stand for it. I won't stand for white people discriminating against black people, or the other way around. I'll be honest, I have racist thoughts sometimes, but I have to tell myself to quit being a futhermucker and thinking that way. Somehow it's become culturally acceptable to hate white people based on them being white. But it's offensive the other way around? How does hate solve the problem? How many white comedians do you see out there making a living telling black jokes ala Martin Lawrence? If you discriminate agaisnt ANYBODY because of their ethnicity, you're racist, and you perpetuate the problem. And if you discriminate against your own race, I don't think there's a word for how stupid that is :nohope:

Go ahead and call me heartless or cruel or ignorant. I just don't believe in the helpless victim theory. You, or me, or money, or big beach houses, or BMW's isn't going to make people better people...

I'm not saying everyone has an easy time. I'm saying everyone has the option to lead a good life and be a good person if they want to. Wether they make that choice is up to them. Hard work = success. Period.

[Daunting]

I wouldn't want retribution for the slavery. It's not about the acres and the mules anymore. My ancestors were most likely slaves and I do feel sorry for them but they are dead and my generation is alive so something has to change with our generation, not try to cover up a third degree burn with a bandaid.

And I agree with you on that. A lot of the black people around where I live and when I use to go to school at a 99% african american school a lot of people were discriminating horribly against the few white students that were there. It's sad because when school work had to be done the white kid actually tried to gather everybody together and get everybody to work so his grade and everybody elses wouldn't be affected. Few (And when I say few I mean 2) stood up with him but most just called him a stupid white boy. That's so ignorant, the pains of the civil rights movement haven't even affected the people that act like this and that's just plain sad. Me personally I have racist views pop up more for my own people than anybody else, and I know it's bad but it's very hard to control it. When I see a dude with his pants to his legs with a thousand tattoos on him, cursing up a storm saying how many bitches he smashed and how much he likes guns and different things. I can't help but freakin feel scared out of my wits and clinch my backpack tighter towards myself and walk faster. And they complain when you try to ask them to show some respect when an older lady or older gentlemen is walking by? WHAT THE HECK!! It's sad.

Only way I see it changing is if a very influential person in that way of life get's most of the other people that have some influence in the biz and make something change.

Sorry if I sound kind of racist in this post, hard not to.

[emily g]

I'll be honest, I have racist thoughts sometimes, but I have to tell myself to quit being a futhermucker and thinking that way.
This is very brave of you to admit this. Most people are so afraid of the thought that they might be racist. Some of them even say things like, "I'm not racist, but . . . [insert racist statement here]. (That really ticks me off. :upset: They are trying so hard to pretend they're not racist when they obviously are.)
I believe we are all racist to some degree. It's just a product of growing up in this culture. And only when we admit it can we begin to solve the problem. I'd rather listen to someone who admits they are sometimes racist but are trying to fix it than someone who pretends they aren't.

I have two minds about poor people who remain stuck in their situations. I am a very strong believer in personal responsibility. I believe people should take control of their situations and not let their situations control them.

But, on the other hand, I see that it can be extremely difficult. If it were so easy to get yourself out of a bad situation, everyone would do it. I'll use the example of money management. A lot of people have poor money management skills. They learned how to handle money by watching their parents--how are they supposed to learn better money management skills, especially if they don't even know that better money management skills exist?
How can you do something better when you don't even realize a better way exists?

This is why I think education is the answer. And I don't just mean traditional high school/college education--I mean life skills like money management, parenting, work ethic, job hunting, all those things that people should know, but so many don't.
Solving the poverty in our country is a big job--a HUGE job--one that won't go away if we just throw money at it.

emily

[Daunting]

Most problems could be solved if people actually try. But that's not how humans in general work. Individuals take a chance and risk everything for a cause all the time. Get a government to do that? Heck no. Without no big influence, or a major consensus of the people, or a way that they can get rich, they aren't going to change anything. If they would have actual think thanks instead of freakin spokesperson's for the rulers of this world, maybe we could actually solve people's problems but of course that wont happen.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

Emily said: I'll use the example of money management. A lot of people have poor money management skills. They learned how to handle money by watching their parents--how are they supposed to learn better money management skills, especially if they don't even know that better money management skills exist? How can you do something better when you don't even realize a better way exists?
Emily, you are the master! Great example. And my point exactly. You can't evolve your life unless you know the opportunity is there. Meaning, you don't have much conrtol over your life. I know people love to think they do, but they have veeeeery little control, if any. I got a real good example if anyone wants to challenge it.

Jetpack said: Wether they make that choice is up to them. Hard work = success. Period.
I'm sorry to say that's not entirely accuate. I met people who have very big positions in high paying jobs who got there jobs, not because of hard work, but because of bullshit, and in the end, they're the most incompetant people you could possibly have in that job position. And adding to that, I've seen amazing hard workers, get canned and/or, not go very far, because of circumstance. Just because you work hard, doesn't mean your getting success. Sometimes working hard sends you to an early grave, especially in professional working enviornments where if one persons skill level makes their boss look bad, the boss, feeling threaten, can find ways to get rid of the hardworker in order to save their job. And if the boss is good at the "talk", no one would ever know the real story. I've seen it happen a variety of times.

Jetpack said: Somehow it's become culturally acceptable to hate white people based on them being white. But it's offensive the other way around? How does hate solve the problem? How many white comedians do you see out there making a living telling black jokes ala Martin Lawrence? If you discriminate agaisnt ANYBODY because of their ethnicity, you're racist, and you perpetuate the problem. And if you discriminate against your own race, I don't think there's a word for how stupid that is
HAHAHA!! Racism is indeed stupid. Period.

Emily said: Some of them even say things like, "I'm not racist, but . . . [insert racist statement here]. (That really ticks me off. They are trying so hard to pretend they're not racist when they obviously are.)
These are the most irritating people on Earth. And is exactly why racism today is almost as bad as it was in the past, becaseu before, people would tell you straight up, they are racist. Now, people are racist in a more 'quiet' way, and some, don't even realize just how racists they are.

I myself learned about rasicm of the past, like the Martin King days when I was in grade and highschool, but I never actually learned or knew of racism in this day and age until about 5 years ago. I always saw people as humans, I never saw color, never. (I know that for some people, it's hard to believe that this is possible in this world, but I really was completely oblivous to race in todays world.) I used to here all these stories about how people are still racist today, and I thought it was a joke, and completely untrue. Then I experienced the racism first hand in the most hardcore ways possible and I couldn't believe it. I've even been discriminated against my own race. And over time, I was forced to actually be conscience of race, when I never was before, which is bullshit. Although I've succeeded in remaining innocent minded about race by staying the way I was before I learned about how strong racism still is, it's irritating that realizing that it still exists and then, it's irritating dealing with those who are racists, especially those who claim they aren't, and get away with it. And everytime I completely forget that race exists, soemone acts like a complete moron and reminds me, 'yep, people are still stupid'. Which brings us back to this threads original topic.

[LaPalida]

Hard work = success. Period.

That's true but dishonest hard work = greater success. You see lazy criminals get caught.

[jetpack42]

Emily, its honesty, not bravery.
I feel like society all but encourages people to be racist, then condemns them when they are. The only solution for the problem is for individuals to decide to think differently.

Meaning, you don't have much conrtol over your life. I know people love to think they do, but they have veeeeery little control, if any. I got a real good example if anyone wants to challenge it.

Bring it on, doggg money biscuit!!!!!



I'm sorry to say that's not entirely accuate. I met people who have very big positions in high paying jobs who got there jobs, not because of hard work, but because of bullshit, and in the end, they're the most incompetant people you could possibly have in that job position. And adding to that, I've seen amazing hard workers, get canned and/or, not go very far, because of circumstance. Just because you work hard, doesn't mean your getting success. Sometimes working hard sends you to an early grave, especially in professional working enviornments where if one persons skill level makes their boss look bad, the boss, feeling threaten, can find ways to get rid of the hardworker in order to save their job. And if the boss is good at the "talk", no one would ever know the real story. I've seen it happen a variety of times.

So, obviously your idea of "paying off" is going to vary with your opinion of "success". At the end of the day, everyone is forced to look at themselves in the mirror. Nobody wants to admit their an asshole, and anybody can rationalize anything. If you're an honest person who puts forth your best effort (ie:hard work) then you've done something to the best of your ability, and that's something to hang your hat on. I call that success, and a successful person is one who is repeatedly and consistantly able to put 100% toward the task. What's the alternative to hard work? no work? lying? bullshit! I can't think of a time when somebody didn't work hard for something, and still achieved the goal (sarcastic and cornball answers aside (ie: the lottery, etc)).

[jetpack42]

That's true but dishonest hard work = greater success. You see lazy criminals get caught.

depends on your idea of success, as i mentioned above. if your idea of success is to be a rich asshole, then you're correct.

[emily g]

Emily, its honesty, not bravery.
Well, you're being honest with yourself, which I think is pretty brave.

If you're an honest person who puts forth your best effort (ie:hard work) then you've done something to the best of your ability, and that's something to hang your hat on. I call that success, and a successful person is one who is repeatedly and consistantly able to put 100% toward the task.
So have you been talking about success in a moral sense and not in a material sense? If it's a moral sense, then you're right, but I think the material sense is way more complicated.

Emily, you are the master!
Ha ha, thanks! I always like reading what you have to say--you seem to have really thought things out.

emily

[jetpack42]

i'm talking about a little bit of how i see success. Success in todays society is all about your big powerful job and your fleet of expensive cars you can tool around while wiping your ass with 50 dollar bills. While there is a material side to it, there is other sides as well.

[LaPalida]

Success - the achievement of something desired, planned, or attempted. So whomever achieves what they desire have succeeded. It's subjective and it doesn't necessarily involve hard work. You can just get lucky, ofcourse hard work increases you chances of success in whatever it is you want to be successful in. I will also point out that sometimes hard work doesn't get you anywhere at all. It's more doing the right thing at the right time that will make you successful. The way of nature is to take the easiest course/path available (ie. path of least resistance).

[Chris J. Anderson!]

First I'd like to say, again, these debates are incredibly fun. It's a difficult addiction to ignore.

jetpack said: So, obviously your idea of "paying off" is going to vary with your opinion of "success". At the end of the day, everyone is forced to look at themselves in the mirror. Nobody wants to admit their an asshole, and anybody can rationalize anything. If you're an honest person who puts forth your best effort (ie:hard work) then you've done something to the best of your ability, and that's something to hang your hat on. I call that success, and a successful person is one who is repeatedly and consistantly able to put 100% toward the task. What's the alternative to hard work? no work? lying? bullshit! I can't think of a time when somebody didn't work hard for something, and still achieved the goal (sarcastic and cornball answers aside (ie: the lottery, etc)).

About success...dude, it may be difficult for some to see eye to eye on this, because everyone has their own idea of what "success" is, but I think success is accomplishing goals that bring you 'true' happiness, not that fake happiness that many people present to others, when they are actually unhappy. Be honest, real, and work hard, be true to yourself, keep going forward, and you get success. With that said though, I also agree with what you said "success" is. And I agree with what you said a "Successful" person is.

You say you can't think of a time when someone didn't work hard for something and still achieved a goal. With that said, I guess you could say that all those people out there who are completely incompetant, but somehow have high position jobs, that they worked hard to put up a front to get and keep their job, and gain respect through con artist techniques, are a success. I would say in that sense, yes, they are a success at that, but they are a complete failure at really being able to do there job, and they don't deserve the respect they recieve, and in the end, I don't think are truely happy. So over all, I'd say they are not a success.

"I can't think of a time when somebody didn't work hard for something, and still achieved the goal "

Lets say, the goal for one, is keeping their job and gaining respect as, what ever job title they are, and they reach that goal by pretending to be a hard worker, and fooling all those into believing they are a hardworker. This person isn't a hardworker at what they are suppose to do. But I suppose they are a hardworker at bullshitting. If thats true, then what you say about, "Hard work= success, is true.

What do you think?


Also, not everyone wants to admit their an asshole, which is true. But I think you know your not an asshole when you know you've done everything in your power to be a good person in what ever circumstance. And you nkow your a asshole when you know you've done wrong. Also, I think you can be a good person, and come off as an asshole, when your not. And Assholes can come off as great people when they are not. I don't think everyone are assholes. But I think it's difficult to know who is and who's not depending on how much one understands the person or situation at hand.

Jetpack42 said: Bring it on, doggg money biscuit!!!!!
hhhhhhhHAHAHAHAHAAA!!

Hey dude, we probably need another thread for the "Free Will" debate. That could get pretty long. Start one up, it should be fun.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

LaPalida - I just saw what you posted, which, I noticed you were typing up as I was typing my wordy reponse, and you posted yours first. Well said about what you say of success.

[jetpack42]

wait, so if "hard work increases your chances of success"...and I used the equation "hard work = success" with the understanding that its not an absolute, and there are other minor factors involved...then you're just agreeing with me? The times when hard work doesn't pay off are so few they aren't worth mentioning...you're just being silly now.

when has somebody set a goal, not worked for it, and achieved it? When has somebody planned something, not shown up, and then had it go as planned? When does somebody desire something, not go get it, and still end up with it anyway? It's happened, but so so so so seldom that...what's the point?

Oh, I get it, we're all "victims" of success. right?

maybe you'd like to offer up a quality which garners a better ratio of success? it's not luck, laziness, or being an asshole...but you're welcome to try.

[jetpack42]

Chris- If somebodies goal is to "make alot of money while being completely fake, not doing the job properly, and loafing thier way through life while screwing everyone around them", then those people would be a success.

That's a good point though, I guess being a successful person is different then being a good person (or a good successsful person). Or maybe a successful "career" is different then being a successful "person"? But again, that doesn't mean that either (being good or being successful) is out of reach if somebody wants it bad enough. Those people didn't get that way without spending alot of energy to screw and fake everyone, so the equation stands.

Bad people, phonies, and everyone else gets found out in the end. People who lead 2 different lifestyles often are caught or recognized, and if they aren't, they still have to live with themselves.

Watch "The Emporers Club".

My point is, I'm not going to lay around all day every day, and achieve my goals and make a difference in society. Your goals depend on your vision of success, and your contribution to society depends on your character and integrity.

edit:
"City of God"

don't know if you noticed my avatar...that's Carrot.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

Jetpack said: I guess being a successful person is different then being a good person (or a good successsful person). Or maybe a successful "career" is different then being a successful "person"? But again, that doesn't mean that either (being good or being successful) is out of reach if somebody wants it bad enough. Those people didn't get that way without spending alot of energy to screw and fake everyone, so the equation stands.
After what I realized in my last wordy post, and after your reponse here, I agree, Hard Work = Success, whether your actually doing your work like a decent person, or fake and full of it, the person is still putting in wat ever hard work to get to where they want to get to.

Jetpack said: Bad people, phonies, and everyone else gets found out in the end. People who lead 2 different lifestyles often are caught or recognized, and if they aren't, they still have to live with themselves.

Yep.

Jetpack: Your goals depend on your vision of success, and your contribution to society depends on your character and integrity.

True.

LaPalida said: I will also point out that sometimes hard work doesn't get you anywhere at all. It's more doing the right thing at the right time that will make you successful.
This is most definitly true.

[darth massacre]

Jetpack...in no way I'm disagreeing with you....


But HARD WORK + Experience reduces the reliance on LUCK. :bashful:

[Daunting]

I believe that some people get lucky, well... on luck but really how many jobs are there where you have to control a lot of your surroundings and produce amazing skill, that a lucky person has. In business many times the people that are on top, really worked for that position. I mean I hate it but even people like J lo worked a little bit, now shes not but oh well.

I feel that a person can get by on luck if they are the chosen out of say, hundreds of thousands of people that didn't have the luck. But how long can they keep that up? Only on luck? That's why i say most of the time hard work pays off more than luck.

Oh ya and chris you got a PM from me.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

darth massacre and Daunting - Yeah, I agree that luck does play a big part in a lot of peoples success. I think that "luck" is anything that people have absolutely no control of, that makes it extremely easier for one to become a success at something. For example, "appearance". If you look and sound a certain way thats in favor of a certain group of people, your chances of success in what your doing is greatly enhanced, and you have no control over how you look or sound, and humans, like animals, judge almost completely on this. Take a female who looks incredibly beautiful vesus an ugly or low-average looking female. It is a known fact that people respond incredibly more to beauty, than the non-attractive. And it's indredible that many people will act more positive and happier and give more opportunities to beautiful females, and not even realize that thats what they're doing. You ask them later, "hey, did you give her that opportunity because she looks good." And ofcourse they will deny it because most people lie, but actions are the obvious truth.

Or the whole short vs tall argument. If a man is say, 4'5', and a genious as someone who could be a lawyer but has a boring voice, and another man who's 6'0" is a little less intelligent, but has a great voice that catches your attention, you put these two in a room, fill it up with a variety of people, the tal guy will get the most attention and the most respect, in fact, as soon as people step through the door, they have already made their decision on who is more intelligent, strong bold, and superior, without evern talking with the people in front of them. And in the end, the 6'0", good talking guy with mediocre intellect will be seen as brilliant, and more opportunity will be open to him than the 4'5" guy.

I just remembered, on MTV, I saw some special on 'the making of a star', or 'a singer' or something, and people in charge of who gets made into great singers and who doesn't, admitted that they will pick someone who looks more glamorous and can't sing for shit, over someone who looks very mediocre or ugly, but is a brilliant singer. In fact, how many terribley ugly people are celeberties singers? For females, I don't know of very many female singers who looks so bad that make overs couldn't save. The more pretty singers have more opportunity here, and they had no control over their looks.

What you think?

[LaPalida]

To Jetpack:

wait, so if "hard work increases your chances of success"...and I used the equation "hard work = success" with the understanding that its not an absolute, and there are other minor factors involved...then you're just agreeing with me? The times when hard work doesn't pay off are so few they aren't worth mentioning...you're just being silly now.

"Hardwork = success" is an absolute statement, "hardwork = success most of the time" is not an absolute statement. The first statement says logically that hardwork will always lead to success just as success will always be attained through hard work which is simply not true. Hardwork in no way guarantees success nor is success necessarily achieved only through hard work. Hardwork increases your chances of being successful but it is by no means the only way to attain what you desire. Besides that not everything is attainable to those that desire it no matter how hard they work to attain it. Simply because their goals weren't realistic. I think it's more "smart work towards realistic goals = success". You can spend enormous amounts of hours working hard using your mouse to click on the menu in Photoshop Edit->Undo or you can just press CTRL-Z which takes alot less time and less work. I think that smart people are the lazy people. They are always looking for ways to do things easier and work less, they take shortcuts or invent things to ease their life and make their work more efficient or maybe give themselves more time to fuck around. Nature/life always takes the easiest way out of a situation, all you have to do is look at water.


when has somebody set a goal, not worked for it, and achieved it? When has somebody planned something, not shown up, and then had it go as planned? When does somebody desire something, not go get it, and still end up with it anyway? It's happened, but so so so so seldom that...what's the point?

Well the point is even if it's seldom (ie. luck) it's still there so that makes your statement false because it's not absolute (ie. there are too many exceptions). Also it's true the other way around. How many times has it happened that someone worked hard on their goal and got nowhere? How many times has someone planned and worked hard only to have their plans screwed up by something unforseen? How many times has someone set a goal for themselves that they cannot possibly attain and then worked hard to attain it when in the end it is obviously a waste of time? If it was as easy as your equation there would be alot of happy hardworking people around, but I simply do not see it. In fact I see alot of unhappy hardworking people that don't attain their goals in life.


don't know if you noticed my avatar...that's Carrot.

Cool. I thought it was you running away from your adoring fans or something hehehe.

To Chris:

My thoughts. When you talk about poverty there is something called the poverty line. Right now a person (in Canada) is considered poor (ie. below poverty line) if he/she is making 19K a year or less. Now that's the definition of poor in Canada. However when compared to someone in a refugee camp, favela or a ghetto = big difference. A real poor person to me (and I mean materialistically deficient not mentally deficient which is another story) is one who doesn't/is unable to have a job, has little or no money to feed himself with, no prospects in life, and more often than not has no roof over their head (maybe it's a tad extreme as this is more destitute than poor). Let's take a hypothetical example: In the future economy is good and everyone has food and a roof over their heads and holds a decent job. The poverty line is still going to be there but now the priorities have changed. Now if you're considered poor it's because you can't afford to buy a jakuzi. It's all relative. That's why I believe you can compare injuries, because I think there is a cutoff line. I think a paper cut =/= a gunshot wound. What's my standard? Well take your fingerless man and the other two (one without a leg and the other without a torso), now throw them in the jungle and see who survives after a week. The man without a finger without a question. While the poor here in 1st world countries have it rough it's nowhere near what goes on in 3rd world nations. At least here people have rights, aren't persecuted for what they believe or who they are (although I find this questionable nowdays) and have a chance to go someplace.

Although Rocket had an opportunity and he took up the chance he is the one who had a different mindset to begin with. He was different from all the thugs around him before he found his chance. A chance like his could have happened to any other person but they wouldn't have taken it up because of their mind set. They accepted the life they lived in and didn't see anything different. Also I want to point out that not everyone in the favela was a thug. There were alot of other people living there too.

[LaPalida]

Or the whole short vs tall argument. If a man is say, 4'5', and a genious as someone who could be a lawyer but has a boring voice, and another man who's 6'0" is a little less intelligent, but has a great voice that catches your attention, you put these two in a room, fill it up with a variety of people, the tal guy will get the most attention and the most respect, in fact, as soon as people step through the door, they have already made their decision on who is more intelligent, strong bold, and superior, without evern talking with the people in front of them. And in the end, the 6'0", good talking guy with mediocre intellect will be seen as brilliant, and more opportunity will be open to him than the 4'5" guy.

Actually I agree up to the last part. Who wins in the end is whoever is the better public speaker. Because that's how appearances work. They impress you in the beginning but once you find out that there is little more behind them then you will lose all your interest. If good lookng people are dumb then they're only good for one night stands. If you're a genious but are not so good looking your strength lies in time spent with others. Don't be so fast to give people so little credit that they will only be swayed by looks, this isn't like 1500's and you're speaking to peasants. Sure if the people that went in the court room were dumb then they would probably pick the tall guy because what the little guy says just won't reach them.

PS. Public speaking involves charisma which is not good looks or tone of voice or even the content of the speech but a way of speaking and presenting yourself to the crowd (and ofcourse knowing your crowd). So whomever wins it's going to be the better public speaker.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

LaPalida - I agree with you to a degree. In extreme cases, if the tall guy is an absolute complete moron and the short guy is Einstein, then yes, ofcourse, it is obvious to most people that the short guy is intelligent and the tall guy is oblivious. But, not all situations are to that extreme.

Most people's intelligence varies to little degrees, when looking at hand fulls of people in an area, like say, a class room, or a job, or just some cluster of people. sometimes you find extreme degrees from completely dumb, to completely intelligent, but many times, you find people who vary in intelligent in small degrees, making them close in their intellect.

With that said, in most cases, a very tall guy may have slightly lower intelligence than the very short guy, but most people won't notice this small difference, and in the end, the different hieghts amplifies how people precieve them. So, in most cases, even though the two people are close in intellect, the taller guy will be seen as way more intelligent. This is a big problem most men face, especialy in this country. And if people are close in intellect, it takes time through the conversation to really see truth of the person, all the while, most people are hynotized by their look and sound, making them think higher about them.

Take a cop for example. If a cop as tall as 4'5" came to save the day, that cop will look weak and inferior to most people. A cop 6'0" or taller will be seen as mature, confident, heroic. Most people respect the taller cop, just because of sheer size.

Also, don't forget that in most cases, it is difficult for most people to see past a guy's height and sound. Many people get hipmotizd by the way someone looks and sounds. Not everyone is smart enough to see whether someone is truly smart, or stupid. Many people become blinded by sheer appearance. A tall guy with a mature looking face, and sound, will amplify what many people think of that person, and so even if this guy is a bit low brow, many people put their belief in that persons appearance and sound, and dismisses the real fact of that persons intellect. Sometimes they can be as dumb as a rock, but because the guys voice sounds extremely tough, and his face looks very mature, he is seen as, the man. This is becuase of the peoples belief in that persons appearance.

It's all because most people like to be entertained rather than really listen. As long as someone sounds and looks entertaining like "wow, this person is so smart because he looks smart and his voice sounds godly", people buy into that, even if the person is a clown. To many people, it doesn't matter how smart you are, it's all about how entertaining you are.

This is seen a lot in the ghetto, the men seen as superior are the big dolts while the shorter men are seen as pathetic idiots.

LaPalida said: Don't be so fast to give people so little credit that they will only be swayed by looks, this isn't like 1500's and you're speaking to peasants.
There's a lot of people out there who's mentality are 1500's and peasant minded. Like a lot of people in Ghetto's in jail, in highschool, and many even in business, I hope I don't sound like a ass, but I see this stuff happen all the time. I wish I could say I don't but I can't ignore it.

I've notice in movies, and TV shows, most of the time, the tall men play the role as smart, intelligent, superior, while the shorter men play the role of comic relief or sexually confused, or wimpy nerds. This is not always true, but happens a lot, all because of physical appearance, which determines your success in many ways, which is stupid.

Hey LaPalida, I'll respond to your other reply later.

[emily g]

Chris, your post reminds me of something I saw on PBS (I think) once. Some people were researching how our society perceives short males. They had a line up of guys and they had some women (through one-way glass) look at the men and choose which one they would rather go on a date with. One of the guys was really short and his name tag said "Stu."
None of the women chose Stu. Then the researchers started saying stuff like "What if I told you that Stu is a doctor?" then "What if I told you that Stu is a millionaire?" Even after piling on the praises for Stu, no one wanted to go out with him except for one girl who said "maybe."

I am a tall girl (5' 9"). I like to think that my height doesn't influence how I see others, how others see me, or how I see myself, but I know that it does. Sometimes I feel pretty good, sometimes pretty frustrated. But I'm trying my best to judge people on who they are and not what they look like. The internet has some anonymity to it, and (while this has its drawbacks) I like the fact that you don't know what the other people look like. Someone could be fat, skinny, short, tall--it doesn't matter. It's fun to eventually see what other people look like, but by that time you're usually already friends.

emily

[Chris J. Anderson!]

emily g - Hahahaha!! I think I saw that or read about it. Thats messed up, one girl just says, maybe. Hahahaa!

emily said: The internet has some anonymity to it, and (while this has its drawbacks) I like the fact that you don't know what the other people look like. Someone could be fat, skinny, short, tall--it doesn't matter. It's fun to eventually see what other people look like, but by that time you're usually already friends.
I agree. With that said though, just because I can't help myself, did you ever post a picture in the "what does everyone look like" thread?

emily said: I am a tall girl (5' 9"). I like to think that my height doesn't influence how I see others, how others see me, or how I see myself, but I know that it does. Sometimes I feel pretty good, sometimes pretty frustrated. But I'm trying my best to judge people on who they are and not what they look like.
Thats very cool. I wish more people though the way you did on that. I used to be an ugly duckling(yes, a sappy saying), after college, everything became cool, but my negative youth experiences have made me more understanding to other people and their appearances, and situations. So even thought I look fine now, I try not to let someones appearence influence how I see others, like your doing. I'm 5'6", and I still feel a tad selfconscience around extremely tall people, but I've controlled it in a way where I use that to realize the negative thoughts people may have, in order to be prepared for it, and how to deal with it positively and learn more from it.

[emily g]

Chris,
No, I haven't posted a pic of myself yet, but I'm thinking of posting one before the workshop so people can recognize me. :) (Are you going, btw?)

I was a very nerdy and geeky highschooler. I look better now, and I think people treat me better, too (sad but true).

I think the biggest eyeopener for me was realizing that I have been attracted to many different types of guys over the years: fat, skinny, chubby, tall, short, nerdy, even bald (yes he was losing his hair, not just shaving it to look cool!).

Now I will never write someone off just because they have X characteristic. I have found good people of every type.

emily

[Floris Didden]

That's funny. 5.2 isn't that tall in my country. I'm bout 6.2 and I'm not exeptionally tall, though most older people are bit shorter. I don't judge people on their heigth though, also cause most of em are shorter then me anyway ;).

[darth massacre]

Digressing for a bit...

I'm bout 6.2 and I'm not exeptionally tall, though most older people are bit shorter.


Floris....the Dutch are what we call...."offensively tall" :}

One of my best friends living in Singapore was from the Netherlands and he's somewhere close to 6'9".....imagine him splashing his pee around the urinals built for people at an average height of 5'6" HAHAHAHA....we don't pee next to him :bashful:

[Daunting]

Lol they probably didn't choose stu still because they really thought that he wasn't a millionaire since they kind of said, "What if I told you Stu was a millionaire." If they said out the get go, "This man right here is a millionaire" without his appearance sinking into their minds. Lol just kidding I have no idea how it would have happened.

Anyways, I'm actually trying to be discriminatory against overly beautiful people these days. Not like outwardly but hey I use to think that only the outwardly beautiful people were worth my time, obviously I was wrong.

[jetpack42]

Anyways, I'm actually trying to be discriminatory against overly beautiful people these days. Not like outwardly but hey I use to think that only the outwardly beautiful people were worth my time, obviously I was wrong.

I've discovered that society and I have totally different opinions on beauty.

[Presence]

emily, I could not agree with you more, I think it is human nature to see the negative aspects first then counter judge the positives.

(N - P = X) If X is of a high enough value then most people will go for it.

There are so many eclectic people on my campus it is pretty much amazing, not one person is the same, must be because we are all artists, lol.

[Daunting]

emily, I could not agree with you more, I think it is human nature to see the negative aspects first then counter judge the positives.


This is too too true... should live in my house for a week, you would crown us the nation of pessisism.

Oh well what are we going to do about the whole world huh? It's best to just try to be the best person you can be.

[LaPalida]

You make some very valid points.
But.
It depends on the outlook.
You say because someone does something for another person, that makes them slefless. I say that what and for whom they do it doesn't matter because the reason they do it is all the same - for themselves.
If a person is doing something for someone else at the expense of self when they have nothing to gain in return then they are not doing it for themselves. To say otherwise would be sophistry. Although I do agree that we do alot of things for selfish reasons or out of self-interest by no means are all our actions driven by this.

Selfless and selfish acts are defined by societies' norms of behavior, there is no absolute here. In the above example, he helps others not to be selfless, but to obey his conscience, and what his consience tells him to do is dictated through societies morals. We're not born with a set of right's and wrongs, and definitions for selflessness and selfishness, those are learned, and they may be opposite in different cultures.
Ah here we're going into cultural relativism. There is an standard of morality and I will expand on this later. Cultural Relativism is another philosophical theory of morality that doesn't work, although it has some interesting insights to offer. You're right we're not born with a set of rights and wrongs but we are born with the ability to reason. Only through reason will we be able to make right moral decisions.

Now about Cultural Relativism: It is true that often we find ourselves wondering why should I judge the other persons culture/religion simply because it is different from mine? Who am I to say that mine is better than his/hers. That's the cultural differences argument. It states that different cultures have different moral codes, therefore there is no objective truth in morality. But this is false from a logical point of view because: simply because 2 factions disagree on something doesn't mean there is no objective truth (ie. me and you disagree on what the capital of Canada is. I say it's Ottawa and you say it's Toronto. Just because we disagree doesn't mean there is no objective geographical truth. The capital is Ottawa btw.) Basically the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise logically. Also there is no reason to think that if the capital of Canada is Ottawa then everyone must know it. Similarly there is no reason to think that if there is moral truth that everyone must know it. Now if we take this theory seriously what are it's implications? Well for 1. we would not be able to say that customs of other societies are morally inferior to ours. Although it would seem enlightened of us to stop judging other cultures bening practices we would also be stopped from judging less bening practices. For example if one country invaded another for the purpose of taking slaves or if another country was violently anti-Semitic we would not be able to say that a society that was tolerant of Jewish people or was against slavery is any better than one that anti-Semitic and favors slavery, because it would mean that we are passing judgement on then which is precisely what cultural relativism says that you cannot do. But in our views the failure to condemn those practices doesn't seem enlightened at all in fact slavery and anti-Semitism seem wrong wherever they occur. 2. we would decide if our actions are right and wrong simply by comparing them to the standards of our society. So for example if a resident of South Africa in 1975 wondered whether Apartheid was a morally right policy all he would have to do is compare this policy with the society's moral code and he would have the answer and nothing to worry about. 3. the idea of moral progress would be called into doubt. Take for example women's emancipation movement. In the western society it is considered moral progress. If Cultural Relativism is correct can we really think of this as progress? Progress means replacing old obsolete ways with new enlightened ways of doing things. But by what standard are we able to judge the new ways as better? If old ways were in accordance with their social standards then Cultural Relativism would say it's a mistake to judge them by a different time's social standards. So when Martin Luther King Jr. was trying to change the society for the better Cultural Relativism would say that there is only one way to do this. If the society is not living up to it's ideals then a reformer is judged to act for the best of the society. But a reformer who seeks to change/challenge the ideals of a society may not do so because the ideals are deemed to be correct.

Next is to realize that different societies moral codes are not that drastically different as it's made out to seem. Merely because customs differ does not mean that values differ. For example in India it is wrong to eat cows (no matter how poor or starving you are) while in ours it's ok. Seems drastically different but we have all but to ask why they do not eat cows. Suppose it is because they believe in reincarnation where souls of humans inhabit the bodies of animals (for example the cow is your grandma). Now the difference lies not in values but in the belief systems. Now we all agree that we shouldn't eat grandma but we disagree whether or not the cow is in fact your grandma reincarnated.

All cultures have some values in common. For example caring for babies (this is for you Emily and Chris). Babies are helpless and cannot survive if not given extensive care over a period of time. If a group does not care for it's young the young would not survive to replace the older members and after a while the group will become extinct. Therefore any culture that continues to exist must care for its young. Those babies that are not cared for must be an exception to the rule. Similarly imagine a society where no one place a value on truth telling. In this society there would be no presumption that one person is telling the truth because he could just as easily be lying. In this society there would be no reason to pay attention to anything anyone said. Communication would become very difficult and complex societies would not form. Therefore for any complex society to exist there must be a presumption that it's members tell the truth. There will be exceptions to the rule but that's exactly what they will be. Let's say there is a society where there is not prohibition on murder, everyone was free to kill and no one thought that it was wrong. No one would feel secure and therefore they would shy away from contact from other members. On a large scale the society would cease to exist. People may form into bands where where they would trust each other not to murder, but notice that they are forming a society where they acknowledge a rule against murder. Therefore for any society to function there must be a prohibition on murder. In conclusion one can see that there must be some moral rules that all societies would have in common in order to exist.

With that said tolerance is a virtue. We should be tolerant of other cultures and their practices but that is not to say that all beliefs, religions, and social practices are equally admirable. To condemn a particular practice of a society is not to say that that culture is on the whole contemptible or inferior to another. All societies are a mixture of good and bad practices. Cultural Relativism rightly shows us that not all our practices are based on some kind of absolute rational standard. Many of our practices (but not all) are culture specific and are neither morally right or wrong. Bare breasts in public objectively speaking are not morally wrong or right. While on some cultures they are scandalous in others they are not remarkable at all. Cultural Relativism also shows us that we should keep an open mind. While growing up we collect views and predjudices which if later in life challenged are hard to abandon. If for example we were taught that homosexuality is wrong and immmoral and then later someone challenges those views by suggesting that it is a mere predjudice, that is not evil etc, that gay people are the same as me and you who happen through no choice of their own to be attracted to the same sex, we may still feel that it is wrong no matter what kind of arguments are brought up. Cultural Relativism provides a cure for this kind of thinking. So even though the theory has serious shortcomings it has many good insights into the fact that many of our practices that we believe come naturually are actually products of our culture.

If life was all about leaving a lot of kids behind, then what is the point of humanity as a whole?
We wouldn't exist without creation, and creation is not possible without intent. We're a part of the same intent that created us. The higher awareness is basically what we all are, and we can't exist if it doesn't exist. Consciousness of life is a sign of it. If we were nothing but accidental meat replicating machines, would we even know it? would we even be aware...nah, we're different from that. Shallow? I guess it would be if you thought that way.

That's what many people accross the ages have been asking themselves for a while now. It maybe hard for a human brain to grasp but what if the universe (perhaps not as we know it today) was always here? There was no point of creation. I think it's a human thing to assign these values to the rest of the world because humans are mortal. I don't see where there is logic behind your conclusion that things can't exist without intent. Precious stones such as diamonds get created through the activity of a volcanoe but I don't see any intent or reason behind it. We assign value to those rocks but without us they are nothing but rocks. Or do you mean just humans were created with intent and everything around us wasn't?

You have a belief that there must be a meaning behind it all. That belief is a part of a social mentality of our dna that drives us to believe that there is a soul/karma/sin/afterlife/heaven/hell etc. These beliefs prevent us from acting out like coldbloded reptiles (psychopath mentality) who are only concerned with themselves.
Not really. There are plenty of unreligious/spiritual people that aren't cold blooded reptiles. Once again God has nothing to do with morality. That's because we can reason and animals can't (at least not to our level). Our ability to reason is what makes us moral animals.

Minimum conception of morality.
Morality (how we ought to live and why) is independant of the idea of God. Minimum conception of morality is the effort to guide one's conduct by reason - to do what there are best reasons for doing - while taking into consideration the needs of others who will be affected by one's conduct.

Because we are not aware of it does not mean it does not exist. Our senses do not allow us to see, smell, touch or taste microwaves and most radiation either yet these elements are around us at all times.
Yet radiation is observed and is tested time and again. There is evidence for it. Besides that you can never prove that something doesn't exist (ie. proving a negative). You can prove that something exists but not the other way around.

You do it because you want the genes you passed on to the child to live. ======> self interest.
What about people that adopt children? There is no genetic self-interest there.

Apart from the very strong influence of self-interest, I think there's also a species-interest. Maybe the self-interest is derived from the species-interest.
People take care of animals too. That's not same species. Besides once you say species-interest that then becomes selfless because it's no longer about you (the ego) but about everyone else around you.

This has to be one of the most upseting views I have ever read in my life. Drunken there is a meaning behind it all and the forward movement of time is proof of that. Think about this for a second, you want to talk about true meaningless, true pointless chaos, is if we could not tell the difference between the past and present which would also mean we couldnt tell the difference between what is happening, weather it happened, is happening or is going to happen. That my friend is pointless, where we exist though have no oreintation whatsoever to find nor make meaning out of it.
That's the reason that humans made up religion to make sense of it all.

Drunken there is a meaning behind it all ...
That's only because you (or rather human beings) assign a meaning to things that isn't necessarily there at all. By assigning a value to a diamond it becomes meningful to us. Meaning exists within a context. Without context an object is meaningless. Besides that there is a view that nothing is real at all. Forward movement in time is an illusion, time isn't a straight line, if you look at quantum mechanics you would understand.

It is not encouraged in our species, it is a genetic trait. Just as if you raised a small border collie around humans and it then saw a herd of sheep for the first time it still has inherent instincts to know what to do.
Not sure what you're implying here.


It's a simple observation.
If you look at Christianity or Islam, these two religions always had those attributes; they are practiced in numbers, and people did, and still do commit despicable and stupifyingly violent acts in the name of said religions. Unlike Zen Buddhism. So call me narrowminded and ignorant, but those are the hard facts about those religions, that go back thousands of years back, and up to this very day.
Christianity and Islam are baby religions that are derived from Judaism.

[LaPalida]

What do you think?
I think you don't see the difference between self-interest and pleasure seeking. Self-interest is something to your advantage. Contracting cancer is hardly to your advantage. Not brushing your teeth is not in your self-interest because you know you will contract cavities yet if you're lazy you won't do it. That's not in your self-interest. When you're angry or passionate you do things that aren't in your self-interest either. Eating is in your self-interest because you want to sustain yourself and not starve to death. It is not selfish. It's something that you must do in order to survive. Excessive drinking will give you alcohol poisoning and make you want to throw up, throwing up isn't pleasant nor is poisoning in your self-interest but you sacrfice your self-interest for the pleasure of a buzz. There is a difference. Humans aren't cold calculating machines that do everything that's in their self-interest nor do everything for selfish reasons. Humans involve in self-destructive behavior that's not in their self-interest. In fact there are people that are sadomasachists. They like pain not pleasure. Take Anabelle Chong (a porn star), she reached a level where there was no more pleasure for her so she started to cut her arm with a knife daily just to feel something. There are people that sacrifice their lives to save many. All you have to do is read some war stories. Those acts are selfless. What are they gaining from it but death? How is that in their self-interest? What of people that get tortured and refuse to disclose some information? Why would they do it if they were self-centered self-interested creatures? If they were they would tell everything in order to avoid pain.

And their selfishness, will cause pain to those who truly love them, when they die by their own hand, their own addiction to the cigarette.
Truly love them? I thought everyone was selfish? Why would people care about what he did. Love is a mark of unselfishness. If he kills himself why should it bother anyone since they are all selfish people?

You can't just simplify it all down to avoidance of guilt--there are too many other factors.
Exactly. The fact that we care/feel guilty shows us as caring persons. Once again if a person was truly selfish he wouldn't give a damn about people around him or their feelings. Why would it bother him in the first place that someone suffers?




...... phew! You know when you spend too much reading this shit when your reply has to be broken into 2 posts.

[Chris J. Anderson!]

LaPalida said: Exactly. The fact that we care/feel guilty shows us as caring persons. Once again if a person was truly selfish he wouldn't give a damn about people around him or their feelings. Why would it bother him in the first place that someone suffers?

LaPalida also said: Truly love them? I thought everyone was selfish? Why would people care about what he did. Love is a mark of unselfishness. If he kills himself why should it bother anyone since they are all selfish people?


LaPalida, you taken what I said completely wrong. I don't want to spend another long time going through what terms means what so bare with me.

The word "selfish". Try not to think of this word as literal as you have been, by thinking, "selfish", means that you simply don't care about anything else but yourself and thats it. No. People can be selfish like this, but they can also be "selfish", (caring only about themself and ther're own self interest), and also, care about other people at the same time.

My point is, humans beings don't do anything without first, selfish desire. Why? Because, "selfish desire" is what innitally drives everything else a human being does, want, and feel. Selfish desire is the "reason" that innitailly drives the human to do what ever they want to do. All other feelings come afterwards. And Selfish desire isn't always bad either. Usually, it is very good in fact, it is the reason that gives you sturdy strength to push you into doing something. That "selffish desire", is usually the very thing that makes someone very strong minded about something, in the first place. Most people don't see that "selfifh desire" lurking underneath because they're too busy dwelling about how "loving", and "compassionate" the person is, but unterneath all that is the core, the personal desire, that feeds the ambition to do what you do. Many people don't even realize they're own selfish desire.

Lets break it down to an example. "I want to". Okay. "I want to help this person". "I want to nurture this baby". "I want to save that animal". The phrase, "I want to", is fueled by something. Before you nuture or help someone or do anything, something fuels the "I want to", which is a "desire". The question is, why have this desire? The answer, because it feels good. It feels good. It's that simple. It feels good to the individual, to do what ever they wish to do. It doesn't matter what ever the individual says or trys to pretty up why they do what they do, like calling themselves caring or loving, it all, first, boils down to, "It feels good", which is personal gain. Or you can call it self desire, or selffishness, or what ever word one wants to call it. The point is, it all starts with "personal gain," first. Thats what drives all humans to do anything.

In order for this to not be true, you would have to take away all human emotion, because emotion is tied to, "want", or "desire". So now, everything you do, really is on sheer instinct with no personal reasons what so ever. But there's a problem. How can a human do anything, without emotion to drive them? They would have no reason to do anything.

People try to make human beings seem so compicated, that they forget just how simple we really are when you look at the basic reasons to why we do anything. It is humans who try to make us look complicated and mysterious, when underneath all that, is limited programming we all are slaves to follow. Like having to take a piss. Humans are slaves to bodily functions. You have no control over your body. If your body tells you, you have to take a piss, you will. You can try to fight it, but the piss is coming out of you one way or another. Humans are slaves to their own mind, body's, and life expeirences, we have no real control, and self interest, is apart of that lack of control that sits under every single descision people make. One has to be honest with themselves and try to understand why they do what they do, try to think about what spark of reason first pushed them into doing something.

This is why I don't by the whole, machines will want to preserves it's own life if they ever become self aware. A reason to want to live is driven by emotion. WIthout emotion, there is no reason to "Do", unless someone programmed some cold reason to do anything, which is just following orders that it's programmed.

I'm getting real close to making a Free Will thread. I may have time to keep that going this christmas break.

[LaPalida]

OMG. You know you're tired when .... you post in the wrong thread LOL. Ugh how do I unchange this!? Oh man I think I'll delete and repost this in the other thread. This is a travesty!

Sorry Chris I meant to post this in the self-centered thread. I'm moving it.

[jawfish]

OMG. You know you're tired when .... you post in the wrong thread LOL. Ugh how do I unchange this!? Oh man I think I'll delete and repost this in the other thread. This is a travesty!

Sorry Chris I meant to post this in the self-centered thread. I'm moving it.

...I recomend some sleep...

[Chris J. Anderson!]

LaPalida - HAHAHAHAAAA!!!!! I did that once a long time ago. No prob, I guess I'll check the other thread for your thoughts on this disscussion.

I was wondering why you were disscussing this in here. When I first read your post I thought for a second, "Maybe I was having the self intrest conversation in here, wait, no, it can't be. Maybe LaPalida just wanted to bring all the different conversations of other threads in one thread to make it easier to keep track of."

[Daunting]

La Palida must be really into this arguement... trying to spread your ideas to all of the threads now, must be.

[jetpack42]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6732651/site/newsweek/

[Daunting]

I don't mind the cause that Bill Cosby is trying to do. I just hate the way he's doing it. Can't teach people nothing when you're calling them dumb all the time.